Penetration on an Elk Shoulder
Elk
I kept both shoulder blades from my elk this year.I wanted to see if my hunting arrow would penetrate the shoulder blade. (I know they are dry and do not similate a real life scenario, but they will have to do). Pretty amazing the results. I took pictures, so enjoy.
I shoot a GT500, 28" DL, 72 lbs, Easton FMJs with 75 grain brass inserts, 125 grain razortricks, 3 2-inch fusion vanes. Total arrow weight 520 grains, FOC is about 16%, speed about 260 fps.
First shot went clean through the skinny part of the blade. Blew through with no problem (the hole in the middle of the blade).
Second shot was a different story (the hole with the 6" crack). The arrow bounced back towards me and I heard my arrow break. Upon inspection I find the broadhead was gone.
Apparently, I hit the underside of the "spine of the shoulder blade". The spine is the bone that protrudes off the back of the shoulder blade. It is about 2-2 1/2 inches thick on my elk.
My arrow tip mushroomed down to the brass insert and caused some mushrooming there too. I find the broadhead, all the blades were broken off. I couldn't find but one small piece of one of the blades. It bent the threaded aspect of the broadhead and mushroomed the tip. WOW!!
My findings suggest, at least for me, never attempt to shoot an elk through the "spine of the shoulder blade". That is one tough bone!
Anyone have any other findings??
Wapitibowman
Here's a shoulder shot from this year, entry at arrow. I would never try a shoulder shot but held tight due to the angle. The elk was slightly quartering to me and a bit downhill at close range. Entry was just inside the shoulder blade- about 5/8" thick at that point and exit was behind the front leg about 12" and 1/3 up. All of the blood was from the exit hole. The recovered arrow was in the dirt approx 20yds downrange.
72# Allegiance, 472gr Axis arrow with Snuffer ss head. The head was still surprisingly very sharp but 1/32" of the tip mashed. My jig confirms its still straight.
as you can see hitting an elk in the shoulder blades is not a good deal even if you get good penetration.
different part of the shoulder blade is different thickness and after drying the bone is usually harder as you stated. but interesting test. moral of the story....no matter how heavy your setup is try to stay away from the shoulder blade. thanks for the test
My one and only spine shot on a whitetail went through the shoulder blade first.
Thats the importance of shot placement. Even large caliber bullets have trouble on the thickest sections of bone. Somebody will say they penetrated the shoulder blade and somebody else will say they didn't, but that can be comparing apples and oranges depending on the particular hit.
Shot a raghorn this year at 50 yards through the shoulder blade. Very similar to your first shot. After penetrating the blade, my arrow went another 3-4" into the elk. Punctured at least 1 lung. Found him bedded and alive about 150 yards from where I shot him. Put a second arrow in him at 30 yards. Not proud of my shot placement. If I would have hit the blade spine or thicker bone, results would have been much different. Will need to rethink 50 yard shots in the future.
Moral of the story, dont shoot big stuff in the shoulder! We were bear hunting in Sask. a few years back and one of our group shot a 475 lb. bear in the shoulder with a 180 gr. fail safe out of a .308 at 30 yds. The bullet bounced off the shoulder blade ran down the length of the body just under the skin then exited out the hip. needless to say the recovery of a 3 legged bear that was really pissed was exciting!
That taught me a lesson! If a bullet cant penetrate a bear scapula an arrow wont!
wapitibowman, thanks for sacrificing an arrow in your test. It was good to see the results.
I hit my 2008 AZ bull in the shoulder blade and got penetration into both lungs.
100g Wac'Em broadhead with 398g of total arrow weight (including the broadhead). 297 fps and 65# draw.
I am not suggesting that a shoulder blade hit won't work. All I am suggesting is the location of the hit on the shoulder blade makes a big difference. It is much easier to penetrate 1/4 inch of bone, than 2 1/2 inches of bone.
Not rocket science, just demonstrating my results . . .
If my broadhead did that I'd be switching brands. I have penetrated shoulderblades on elk with traditional equipment.
While deboning a friend's bull this year we found a broadhead and 4" of carbon arrow against the shoulder blade of the bull. The arrow and broadhead were completely encased in whatever that clear gristly looking stuff is and was laying against the shoulder blade (not stuck in it)along the ridge. It had been there since at least the previous year because we didnt notice any scaring on the cape and until Chad smashed him with his muzzleloader, he was bugling up a storm trying to keep his cows together.
The arrow appeared to have hit lower than wapitbowman's arrow in the first photo. The ferrule was bent at almost 90 degrees and two of the three fixed blades had broken at their welds (inside of the bend) and were also encased in the scar tissue. It appeared that upon impact the head did not penetrate the ridge or near it and completely failed by the ferrule bending and popping two of the blades at the welds.
I did not get any photos of it. We had already taken photos and were in the process of deboning and my hands were too nasty to get the photos. It was a big bodied bull.
When the bone is so thick that the collision causes the arrow to break the games over no matter what broadhead you are using.
Guy on a TX forum posted that the PH on an Africa hunt recommended Silverflames as a traditional head that would penetrate well and had great strength. He shot something and the trackers came back with a puzzled look on their faces with the head bent double like Hobbes. Thats what usually happens with aluminum heads under great stress, and can even happen with a steel one like Hobbes.
Under that kind of shot you can't blame the broadhead since nothing will penetrate, and with enough force the insert will be driven back and the arrow will break completely stopping penetration. Sometimes the hunter has to just take responsibility for bad shot location.
Good points OHO, A large part of penetration is having the arrow flying straight at the hit. Any wobble will lose penetration as the shaft is forced sideways. Same thing happens if you catch bone at an angle and I think the broken shafts and bent inserts are caused by that.
I remember seeing some old Hilbre style heads that were curled up and had the tips of Razorheads do the same before I filed a chisel end on them.
Greg
This was definitely poor shot placement, but it had to have been a direct hit to shove the insert back into the arrow, mushrooming the end of the shaft, and bend the ferrule at almost 90 degrees. Also, the head was a well known head that is known for great penetration. An elk shoulder blade is incredibly strong as you get close to the joint and near the ridge.
Towards the top thinner section or outer back edge is nowhere close to as tough.
"I am not suggesting that a shoulder blade hit won't work. All I am suggesting is the location of the hit on the shoulder blade makes a big difference. It is much easier to penetrate 1/4 inch of bone, than 2 1/2 inches of bone."
No way to add anything to that!
OHO. I disagree, the heads I shoot will withstand repeated shots into poured concrete, mounted on wooden arrows from a 70lb bow. Prolly couldn't due it with modern arrow construction as the insert is a very weak link, especially with carbons. Still on game a failure like that is unacceptable on anything but a femur hit
Njord, Maybe I'm not grasping what your claiming. Your saying you can repeatedly shoot a poured basement wall without your wooden arrow/broadhead combination failing? I'm not from Missouri, but I'd have to see an arrow/broadhead combination take repeated shots into "poured" concrete.
I am quite confident this bullet isn't fond of being stopped by any bone.
Gold Tip Ultralight Entrada 300, 262 gr. 31" from nock groove to cut carbon, 210 gr. Grizzly El Grande, 200 gr. adapter, 100 gr. brass insert, 30 gr. 2.5" 2117 footing, 27 gr. 2" 2317 footing, 9 gr. nock (after cutting 1/8" off male portion), 6 gr. 3 - 4" nanners, 8 gr. glue,
852 gr. 34.07% FOC
This diagram shows how all the ingredients are put together to maximize strength.
That is one nasty-looking bone crusher!!
Hobbs, yes that is eactly what I'm saying. The(head/shaft)attachment will stand up to about 5 such shots. The only head damage is a bit of twist due to the helical fletching.
My archery club used to have broad head shoots at the end of the 3d season in prep for hunting. I shot low on one target an penetrated the conduit reinforement in the front leg, the tip bent when it hit the rebar stake. I pulled it and straightened it with a leatherman and continued to shoot the rest of the course with that arrow. Typical penetration in pored concrete is 3/8 to 1/2 inch, shot alot of 3/4" plywood during testing too.
My archery club used to have broad head shoots at the end of the 3d season in prep for hunting. I shot low on one target an penetrated the conduit reinforement in the front leg, the tip bent when it hit the rebar stake. I pulled it and straightened it with a leatherman and continued to shoot the rest of the course with that arrow. Typical penetration in pored concrete is 3/8 to 1/2 inch, shot alot of 3/4" plywood during testing too.
Impressive. I've got wooden arows w/ Zwikeys for my recurve that I haven't used in a while, but I never tried shooting them into concrete. I know the head I found against the elk shoulder that was bent w/ two broken blades wouldn't have taken a shot into concrete.
Hey, Njord, those CMU blocks make a excellent European mount with a dark painted wall as the background
Beendare:Not cement blocks, poured concrete.Your not being helpful
Hobbes; The older zwickeys(10+yrs ago) would often split the ferrule onna hard impact like were talkin. I think they have beefed up their spot welding and brazing since, old bear razorhead are weak also(sacriledge I know). I use ribteks, which are one piece(no welds or brazed joints, nor are the cast or moulded). The only other laminated heads that I haven't seen fail is the Grizzly and the Ace. Blew up alot of Magnus too.
If you guys can pick the thin spots of teh scapula to intentionally aim at while avoiding hitting the spots you can't penetrate, you are better bowhunters than I am.
Yeah, none of us are intentionally aiming at the shoulder...but its nice to know what your equipment is capable of in the case of a bad shot- thus I like tests like this.
In fact, I think many would not be shooting the arrows and BH's that they do if they did test it on something like this or 1/2" sheet of plywood at a 45 degree angle.
Spots you can't penetrate? Uh...where?
I used to shoot the El Grande Grizzly heads because of the penetration capability. I did wonder if they would have penetrated the thick part of the scapula? Anyone ever test this out? Any opinions? I still have a few and am really tempted to try it, but I am afraid it would cost me another $15 arrow. Those FMJ's aren't cheap!
Wapitibowman
Beendare: Now you got it, if the broadhead collapses you are wasting penetration energy on deforming the broadhead instead of penetrating animal. If you prove out your equipment beforehand you will have the best chance of a successful outcome, because eventually something goes haywire.
njord, I dont think i can shoot that arrow setup out of my destroyer at 70#. What about the tips weight effect on the arrow spine?
Heavier points will weaken dynamic arrow spine. If you go up in point weight you will have to shoot a stiffer arrow
No matter the equipment used, Recurve, Longbow or Compound, when a heavier tip weight is desired one must always consider arrow spine to accommodate both arrow length & draw weight.
For instance, if you shoot at present a .400 spine with a 125 head & it tunes well to your draw wt. you may need to go to a .340 to tune a 175 grain tip wt. or you may have to step up to a .300 spine to shoot 200grn + tip weight. I've shot up to 200 grn tip weight out of a .340 spine with arrow lengths to 27 1/2" out of a 70# compound & a 200grn tip wt. out of a 27 1/2" arrow out of a 56# longbow at 27" draw. Match arrow no matter the tip wt. to your draw wt. to tune well & you will be good to go for extra penetrating values!
I still would stay away from Scapula/Shoulder blade hits as only the lower portion of a scapula hit will reach the lungs unless at a very steep angle from a treestand, then & even then that's a bad shot angle!
When guys talk about blowing through scapulas we always need to consider angled shots as well, broadheads have a tendency to glace or ricochet off of solid hits when we are not hitting solid bone squarely for best penetration! Bottom line, stay away from all solid bone when choosing shot placement!
ElkNut1
My bow setup consists of destroyer 340 31 drawlength and 70#. Arrows are CX maxima hunters in 450, 30" in length. I have been tinkering with heaver weight up front by epoxying 2 70gr .243 bullets in before the insert and a 125gr tip with a 20 grain lighted nock. This gives me a finished arrow weight of 616 grains. I was afraid this maybe too much up front? The arrows fly well. How do u tell when the spine of an arrow has reached its limit/( Whithout blowing up!) Thanks
Simple, paper tune when using a compound such as you are! It will tell you within a few shots if you need to adjust things. Make sure you have total fletching clearance when doing so. If you have any contact it will play with you! (grin)
ElkNut1
I think poor penetration on a shoulder blade is not because of its thickness. They aren't very thick or tough on the outer half. Should be a piece of cake to blow an arrow through one, but its usually not.
The shoulder blade is essentially floating on muscle and tissue providing a very effective shock absorber. Ever shot a piece of hanging carpet? They are great arrow stoppers, because they can absorb a lot of the energy off arrow, just like the muscle and tissue under the shoulder blade.
I lost a cow several years ago with a high shoulder blade shot. I got about two inches of penetration and the arrow broke off. No blood trail and no elk. Later in the season i got my hands on a fresh elk shoulder blade and proceeded to shoot the heck out of it. The same setup I shot the cow with could blow through the shoulder blade no problem even the spine. The spine bent my broadhead, but I still got several inches of penetration. So that got me thinking. Why had I got such bad penetration on the actual elk?
Well, there are a lot more factors at play on a live elk the main factor being that the shoulder blade is floating on a bed of muscle and tissue.
Caddis that is a good and valid point.
Shot my 840gr arrows with the tempered steel 2 blade Steelforce 210 gr head [ solid SS ferrule the size of a pencil]through 1" thick ribs of a water buff that had 8" of thick shock absorbing muscle over them.
You have a point but some heads can focus the energy over a lower profile surface- thus penetration is better.
In other words, chisel tips helping with penetration is a myth promoted by the manufacturers
I don't believe Muzzy was fudging claiming their heads penetrated bone well, aka bad to the bone. Guys reported that they were getting terrific penetration by shattering bone with the tip so the arrow continued on. Thats not a myth. And John Sr. designed it to use with what he shot, a longbow, in Africa.
As to Cape Buff, there is a plumber on the Slick Trick site with a Buff. Think with the new site Jamie doesn't have the rib pic up, but he sent a pic of a rib that a 4 blade 100 Mag blew a hole through on its way to the heart.
Think he did that before the Standard came out, which would be a better choice penetrating with less diameter. Actually said he took the Mags for other animals and Zwickeys for the Buff, but after taking a bunch of animals with the Tricks he had confidence it would work fine, and it did.
Although the Trick tip isn't exactly a chisel tip like other heads, with the geometry and edges its more cut on contact.
Of course I have posted this info for 10 years. If you notice, in the last year or so, Dr. Ashby now promotes traditional heads with a tip that is actually as much chisel tip as it is COC. Funny how things work out.
And you were right about the shock absorber effect Caddis, besides the bone thickness that really sucks up the energy.
Dr. Ashby shows in his research that the tanto tip is the best to use. Not because it breaks and shatters bone better but because it is more structurally sound than any other used. The other options would bend, curl or break.
Structurally sound is number one when maximizing penetration. There is a very small battle that takes place the moment the broadhead hits the animal. A battle of resistence. If the leading edge of the killing mechanism gives, in the slightest, penetration is compromised. It all begins with the tip of the broadhead, then the mechanical advantage and sharpness of the broadhead, then the strength behind the broadhead, and so on.
Once the tanto tip hits the animal, doesn't give and wins the battle, then the arrow can be buried in a rib cage in a direct correlation to its momentum, with emphasis on arrow mass.
All I know is if you go to Alaska Bowhunting to order, they advertise the Ashby head as having a "bone busting tanto tip". I would have thought Ashby was aware of that.
I want all to know that I did not start this thread to debate the ethics of shoulder blade shots. I do not try for nor agree with the placement of an arrow throught the scapula. Anatomically, it does not make sense for a clean kill.
I just wanted to see how my broadhead/arrow would hold up in a worse case scenario. I guess I found out.
Has anyone shot through the thick part of the scapula with the El Grande Grizzly head??
I find it hard to believe an arrow could penetrate 2 1/2 inches of bone.
Wapitibowman
I found a couple of pictures I took of the shoulder blade test I did. This shoulder blade was off a cow and the shot is about 2 or 3 inches up from the joint. The broadhead and arrow actually split the bone and penetrated 5 inches into my target. Not the thickest spot on the 'blade but close.
Slightly Fubared 4 blade stinger after 5 shots through the shoulder blade. It held up pretty well considering the abuse.
The quasi "tanto" tip definitely performed in the bone crushing/splitting category. Maybe I'll market a broadhead called the the Terrible Tanto Tip Trophy Exterminator. I could call it the 4TE. Bet it would sell like hot cakes too.
Moral of the story: It doesn't matter if you get good penetration on a static shoulder blade test. The results on a live critter are hardly ever good.
i would like to see a pic of a broadhead penetrating concrete, kinda hard to believe, not saying its not possible though.
I just found these Helix heads and have some ordered. Looks like they would penetrate as well as any I've seen, and resonably priced. http://www.helixarrowheads.com/
Reasonably priced?? $13 a piece - that's pretty steep in my book.
It's the single bevel that splits the bone better, ultimately creating better penetration.....IF the broadhead tip survives the initial battle.
"I do not try for nor agree with the placement of an arrow throught the scapula."
Well neither does most anyone but when things happen out of our control, like the animal moving when shot at, I would certainly rather have a weapon that will do damage in the worst case scenario.
Almost any arrow with any broadhead will penetrate a soft rib cage. Prepare, prepare.
This is a very interesting discussion. It makes me recall a statement I read a couple of decades ago that has served me well. It was something like this "Your arrow/broadhead set up should be designed to work best for marginal shots." This statement stuck with me. Almost any set up works well when you miss the lungs and get a double lung hit. The troubles occur in the field when a perfect hit does not occur for any of a myriad of reasons - some not the fault of the archer. I have made less than perfect shots on deer and elk that have resulted in kills in large part because I used 180 single bevel grizzly broadheads - with both longbows and compounds.
Well, this discussion was a decade ago so perhaps this is the one you recall?
Might not be a bad thread to bring back up with the recent threads advocating for aiming tight to the shoulder in the “v” on elk. Bad things happen when you hit heavier bone!
I think the hits to the scapula happen on shots quartering to.
“ The troubles occur in the field when a perfect hit does not occur for any of a myriad of reasons - some not the fault of the archer. ”
Maybe we need to draw a distinction between “not the fault of” and “beyond the control of”?
Because we control (and are responsible for) everything that happens prior to the arrow leaving the string; most importantly the decision to let it leave at all. So that includes shot selection, tuning, broadhead selection, quieting down your bow, recognizing your own limitations in tracking if you get a poor/nonexistent blood trail, how much daylight you have left, whether rain/snow is expected, how twitchy the animal is, etc. , so on, so forth and a whole bunch of other stuff…
It’s all Risk Management.
So JMO, if you take a shot at a wired-up deer that tries to dodge the arrow and ends up gut-shot, that’s On You, because you know better.
Last week or so, we had a guy come in here looking for help recovering a bull that “took a step”. I don’t know a thing about that individual, but I do know that some people are better than others when it comes to reading when an animal is about to take a step (if you doubt the truth of that, you don’t know anyone who is good at it). And the longer the hang time on that shot, the more opportunity for something like that to go South. I noticed that the guy looking for help didn’t mention how long a shot it was, but looking at the trail-cam pics of that bull, he was one for which the vast majority of hunters would be willing to push their own limits.
So yeah, “Shit Happens”, but it seems to happen a lot more often to some than others.
Makes me think about that thread with a bunch of social media pictures of animals with two or more arrows sticking out of them, showing very limited penetration. Most of them hit in the wrong end to begin with. How many of those animals would have been recovered had there not been that chance on a second shot?
I’m going to guess that a lot more animals are lost from being hit too far back than from a hit in the scapula, and I’m certain that survival rates are much better for the latter than the former. You nick the gut, get a slug of bacteria someplace it doesn’t belong, and there’s just no surviving that.
I like the idea of holding where there IS NO crease behind the shoulder because the near leg is forward and that’s opened up.OTOH, the deeper the crease, the less chance there is of the meaty part of the shoulder moving rearward to get in your way….
So again, Risk Management.
FMJs need a collar, or an outsert to help keep the point from being forced into the shaft on a solid impact. Also, a BH failure like that should be evidence enough to shoot a better BH like VPA.
Yes, a 12 year conversation that still is a very important for maximizing killing and recovering animals. More tinkering and improvements of updated killers. Blows up everything it hits. It's an arrow of love...it never fails.
