Bill v
I think moose is the only animal left that NRs have to apply via paper app. If you need a form, let me know. I have an extra book.
NRs still have to apply for goat, sheep, and moose on paper. Sorry guys. I have extra sheep and goat proclamations on hand if you need to PM me. Would be happy to drop one in the mail. Otherwise, you should be able to call the CO DPW office and get one mailed out - 303.291.7227.
Good luck in the draw!
I still have an extra sheep/goat proclamation if anyone needs one.
Just PM me.
Consider the cost to CPW if they start accepting credit cards from NR's for sheep, moose and goat. Taking credit cards is not a free service to the recipient. A vendor must work through a merchant account provider, who charges the vendor (CPW) a fee for each transaction, typically 2% to 4%. This fee is generally not refundable to the vendor. The CPW collects and temporarily holds about 15 million each year from NR's for their Moose, Goat, DBH, and RMBH applications. The credit card merchant fees the CPW would incur for this process, at only a 2% rate, would be about 300,000.00 per year.
Those merchant fees are avoided by taking checks only. There's no real need for them to accept credit cards and incur the additional 300,000 in associated costs, when they already receive 100 times as many NR applications as they have tags to give. The approximately 70 total licenses they award to NR's only bring in 140,000.00 in license fees. So it wouldn't make much sense to spend 300,000.00 to sell 140,000.00 in licenses.
Alternately, it makes more sense to allow residents to use credit cards, because of the drastically lower license fee they are charged for these species, and due to the much lower ratio of applicants per license issued.
Or they could adopt 30 year old technology and just hit the cards of the few people who draw moose, sheep, and goat like Washington, Montana, Nevada, Utah, and Arizona.
Paper apps, checks, and submitting tag fees upfront are unnecessary and antiquated.
WY and NM are two that come to mind.
Basically, its their game. Choose to play and its by their rules. For me, its OK, I pay every year! :)
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They are supposed to post the paper apps on the web site today... if that matters. Ed F
http://cpw.state.co.us/buyapply/Pages/PrintableBigGameApplications.aspx
And I did do the math as you requested - It's not really $100s of thousands of dollars at stake here. 2014 numbers of NR applicants Moose 1602 + Sheep 3481 + mt goat 1706 + desert sheep as well at 444 applicants multiplied by $2064 for the first 3 and $1379 for deserts is $14.6 million in license dollars collected. Let's say they keep it for 45 days total at 2% annual interest that's only $36,000 in interest. They can't "invest it" as you suggest what if they lose money?
Also I'm pretty sure there is a Colorado law that prevents them from actually making any interest in the first place.
Their game their rules don't like it nobody is forcing you to apply.
There is no ObamaApp law for big game hunters....yet.
BTW I also front all the tag fee money in WY and NM as mentioned as well as Idaho and Montana.
Sandbrew
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It's also notable that in CO, you don't have a shot for the first 3 yrs but still have to lend them thousands of dollars just to earn a point.
And with all due respect, I don't think that separating the men from the boys is on their mind at all, since with a slight change to their system, they could become more inclusive and end up making more money off of apps if they'd just change the system to no tag fee up front, hit CCs after the draw, and charge the app fee to more people.
It's just dumb government bureaucracy that is slow to change and optimize what they do because no one's holding their hand to the fire.
All I'll say is be careful what you wish for. Colorado is basically the last remaining western state where a NR can legitimately expect to draw a Goat or Ram tag over a lifetime of applying. There's no other western state that even comes close to that for NR's. This does not happen at random, there are specific reasons for it. One of them being the cost and difficulty of applying on paper which apparently deters so many NR's. Idaho is next on the list (for Moose especially). Again there's a good reason for it. The reason in the case of Idaho is that each person can choose to apply for only one OIL species, OR apply for deer/elk. And no point system to entrap applicants. These factors sharply drive down the number of apps for each OIL species.
In contrast are the states that allow on-line apps, or have a minimal up-front cost, or allow you to apply for all of the high-demand species, or some combination of these. If you're being honest with yourself, these states are mostly a waste of money, except for maybe elk & deer. About all you're accomplishing is a nice donation to their F&G dept. Most NR starting out today cannot reasonably expect to draw the high demand species in UT, AZ, NM, NV, WY, MT, CA, OR, WA in their lifetimes. It's mostly just a dream or a gamble, akin to playing the powerball.
If you're not applying to Colorado due to the high up-front cost and paperwork hassle, all I can say is....thank you. You're helping the rest of us pull some great tags. But good luck in those other states.
As far as drawing Colorado tags NRs can draw any year they apply for sheep, mt goat and moose there is no rule saying they must have 3 points if all the tags are not drawn with 3 points it drops to 2 then 1 then 0. I know of at least one NR ram tag that was turned in right before the season started and the reissue tag went to a NR with only 1 point as others turned it down. Also it is very possible to draw cow moose tags and sheep ewe tags as a NR first choice with 0 points in many units. There are evennewe tags as 2nd choices for NRs occasionally. There are tags that are as close to a sure thing with 3 points for NR mt goat if you are willing to hunt a nanny. My brother drew a resident nanny tag with only 1 point a few years ago.
Also desert sheep in Colorado is random draw 1 tag for 4-500 applicants and it's only $1379.
Good luck to all in the draws!
Good luck to all.
Again, what I stated in my last post was not disagreement in the result, but in the intention. I could be wrong, but I'd only believe it if I heard it from CO F&G myself. Anything else is heresy or speculation.
I also understand why folks wouldn't want it to change. If you've been in the game for a long time, rule changes generally screw you. But from the standpoint of someone who's just getting into the game, one gets the feeling that they're (the new applicant) not "doing their time" like the generation preceding them had to. When you start off with layers of point-fat on top of you, the outlook is completely different than the folks who were around when these systems were put in place. As it stands, if I jump in now and apply for 15 years, I will not be in the same situation in 2030 that a guy with 15 points has in 2015. Not even close. I doubt that guys with 15+ points across the west are sitting around and running numbers for guys who are just getting in.
And I'm not saying that everything has to be "fair" or that everyone should be on the same level here. I'm just saying that these systems were doomed to be broken when they started and were poorly conceived. That they favor a generation of hunters who were applying in the west 1985 and 2000 and that everyone who came after them will never have the same opportunity to draw these tags like they do/did.
It's just like the CA sheep system. If I had max points, hell, I wouldn't want it to change. But when you have a tag that 1000 people want and there's only 2 given out and one is given to a small group of people who were lucky enough to be applying when the system went in and will continue to have that advantage till everyone's an old man/dead and the other is given to everyone else (whereas they still have a shot at that one too), you think differently of the system.
Over in ID, the system is definitely in place to assist hunters who really want to hunt XXX species by only allowing you to apply for the OIL species, but comparing ID and CO is like comparing the U.S. and Mars.
As far as listing all the other states and the finite odds of drawing, perhaps you didn't consider the fact that despite the poor odds, an average guy can still apply to all of them for his entire life for minimal investment and the odds of drawing one actually become significant after decades of applying to more than one place. That is the saving grace of places like UT (et al) where a minimal investment at least gives you a chance and increases that odds, year after year, for a small price. And another point, many of these states offer OIL applications for a nominal price in a place where you'd already be applying for elk anyways, so the OIL app is basically a gimme.
Check back with me in 30 years and I'll let you know how that works out.
With all due respect, I disagree. The fact remains that there is still a numerical problem with people coming into the draw system. Maybe that was the case for people who entered the draw prior to 2000, but for people entering now, it's no longer the case.
What you have is X amount of tags per year and Y amount of apps, but the failing of most people who analyze draw systems is, they look at the system with a snapshot view of things, or as things stand this year. People leaving the system by drawing, dropping out, or dying is lower than the amount of people coming in and that will continue for quite some time.
Most of these systems went in around 1990 and men in their 20s, 30s, and 40s are the bulk of the people who were applying then that currently have the highest amount of points right now and many will continue to apply for decades to come, all the while, new applicants continue to stream in to the system.
Sure, there were guys that were in their 50s and 60s as well who were applying then and some of them have or will soon drop out, but if you have looked in depth at the numbers coming in and spent some time running the math, crunching the numbers with ages mixed in, the fact is, that these systems will continue to have worsening odds for the next 20 years or so.
Such as that someone who starts applying now, will have crap odds in 20 years compared to a guy right now who has 20 points and this is across the west in every state that has a BP or PP system. And this will continue and not reverse, but rather stagnate.
The end effect if everything stays the same, 50 years from now, is a reality where the bulk of guys hunting Shiras moose, sheep, and goat in the lower 48 are 65 years old+, there still aren't enough tags to go around so someone's going without, but, and this is the kicker, but...there was a time when baby-boomers had a chance to have superior odds of drawing while they were young at the expense of their kids simply by getting into the game when the system was instituted.
No one will ever convince me that this is anything other than horse $#!+ and getting back to the thread, this is why I have a problem plopping down 6 grand for a plate of horse $#!+.
If I had 15+ points right now, I'd love to plop down 6 grand in CO and keep my odds higher. But for someone getting in right now, the value of the product you're paying for from 2015-2035 pales in comparison to what you got/get from 2000-2020. The commodity is devaluating. I'm sure everyone can understand the devaluation of a commodity all-the-while retaining its price as a mismatch of logic.
I'm more confused now. Why does it specifically say that NR moose applicants must use paper but nothing about goat and sheep? Don't NRs have to use paper for all three?
And I'm glad CO is this way. Sure the process is antiquated and it sucks to cough up the dough, but I like being a man among boys, ;-) I prefer the better bad odds.
Done this for years and still can't keep it straight.
JAnders1's Link
CO prints a separate proclamation for sheep and goat. The proclamation you're looking at is the Big Game proclamation, which only deals with deer, elk, pronghorn, bear, and moose. It mentions moose applicants must apply with paper because that is the only species in that proclamation that requires NR paper applications. See p.6 of the sheep/goat proclamation stating only R applicants can apply online.
http://cpw.state.co.us/buyapply/Pages/PrintableBigGameApplications.aspx
Up until yesterday, there was a note on that page that read:
"Nonresidents applying for moose MUST use paper applications."
However, the CPW has now revised the web page to read:
"Nonresidents applying for bighorn sheep, mountain goat, and moose MUST use paper applications."
Let the dreadful wait begin....
