I see a lot folks that practice out to distances that they normally wouldn't shoot at game animals which is good practice because it makes the normal range shots easier to execute at the time of truth. Most agree. Most also agree that you will have many opportunities for shots at those long distances elk hunting so the temptation may present itself about taking a shot at say 70 yds. Most agree that it is not wise even if this distance is a chip shot for you now with hundreds of hours practicing these long distances. You may be the bow club champion of Key West Florida or something. Alert animals can lunge forward several feet in the time it takes an arrow launched at 320 fps to get there. Also, my technical point for making this post is that some set ups (depending on how much drag your arrow has), when sited in at sea level for say 70+ yds will shoot a foot or more high at high elevations in thin air. This is not even factoring in the angle compensation which would compound it even more. So make sure what your bow is doing once you get to your hunting elevation. I'm not condoning long shots but no one is responsible for others actions and we know some will be tempted and should re-consider. Not all situations are the same. Just know your conditions. I am ashamed to say I know this first hand. No animal was harmed in my education.
When I shot sights, id seen no difference from whatever the elevation in Central kansas was to 10k in Colorado. When you do sight tapes in the archery software, there is no input for the elevation your shooting at. It's negligible difference!
Same as MathewsMan and oldgoat. I've shot my bow at sea level in CA, not far above sea level in IL, and all my hunting has ranged from 4500'-10,000' here in WY. Never have I had to adjust my sights.
Agree 100% that you should check your equipment before you start hunting, however, if there's a difference of a foot or more at 70yds, there's certainly something wrong, but it's not caused by thin air.
Ditto. I have never been able to tell the difference going from 600 ft to over 12,000. Obviously you would take a few shots to insure no adjustments were needed but I have never made any adjustments and many times we gamble on closest to the x at 100 yards in camp while getting acclimated. It can be a real money maker at $1 a shot when you are on....and it's not bad practice either. It makes 20-30 yard shots seem point blank.
It does have an effect. Just like a baseball travels about 6-8% farther at Denver than it does at sea level. If this translates directly to an arrow in terms of drop you are going to see a VERY minimal change. Probably something that 1/4-1/2 turn on the limb bolts would correct.
There is a difference guys. Things that exaggerate this more are:
Blades on the front. More effective fletch. Faster arrow flight. Lighter arrows.
If your bow is slow, you shoot a heavy arrow, you shoot mechanicals or very small fixed blades and your fletch is small with less helical/ offset, there will be less of this effect.
At sea level my arrows suffer more of a loss of speed downrange than they do at elevation because I shoot a moderately sized fixed blade, the arrow is fairly light, my fletch is working pretty hard and the bow is somewhat aggressive. This means that all the parasitic drag from the thicker air is bleeding off its speed at a quicker rate than it does when I get to 11,000 feet. There can be a foot or more difference at long distances.
Pitchers hate to pitch in Denver. Their junk balls don't move around as much and like said, the batted balls go further. The pitchers don't last as long in general because they have to overwork to get some movement and there is less contrast between fast balls and their junk. Hurting their arms.
"Pitchers hate to pitch in Denver. Their junk balls don't move around as much and like said, the batted balls go further. The pitchers don't last as long in general because they have to overwork to get some movement and there is less contrast between fast balls and their junk. Hurting their arms."
Baseball isn't really a good analogy. Pitchers hate to pitch in Denver cuz they don't get as much movement on their "junk", nothing more, nothing less. The higher elevation of Denver certainly has an effect on curveballs, sliders, slurves, and knuckleballs. I've yet to hear anyone complain that their fastball is less effective, or hits higher, than it does when pitching in LA. As far as injuries go, they happen at sea level as well.
If you experience a big difference in arrow trajectory at elevation, so be it. As many have already posted, that isn't the norm.
I recommend that flatlanders check their bows after they arrive in the mountains. My bow shoots 4 inches higher at 40 yards at 11,000' than it does at sea level. I'm not saying why; I'm saying it can't hurt to check.
No difference here for me at the base of Sierra's to 10,000 in Utah where I took practice shots...As said, check you equipment when you get there...Better yet, ask some of the hardcore Sheep guys that are always at altitude....
Another thing is your up down shots, only real thing I've ever really worried about...
It certainly makes a difference with rifle bullet trajectory at long range, golf shots, field goals in football, and home runs in baseball. Don't know why it wouldn't make a difference in arrow trajectory at longer distances. I just asked my buddy this very question the other day. Is the difference negligible? I don't know but I will sure follow this thread with interest.
The point about the pitching is that the thin air at elevation has less drag. Actually a fast ball sinks more in Denver than sea level, not rises. This is because a fast ball with back spin in thick sea level air actually rises (or tries to rise) because the air has more effect on it than in Denver. A fast ball in Denver, even though it is ever so slightly faster than it would be at sea level when it crosses the plate, actually sinks more in tune with gravity and is held aloft less by the backspin than at see level. pitches are more effective when there is more contrast between junk and the fast ball. Pitchers have to work their arms harder to provide this contrast because the thin air isn't helping. And an arrow bleeds of less at elevation than at sea level. Case in point.
At home, 36 feet elevation, If my bow is sited in at 80+ yds with fixed blades and I shoot a field point the fp will shoot over the target. At 11,000 feet, when I site in my fixed blades at 80 yds the field point hits the target high but not over the top.
This is a real situation. But for those that say they see no difference and have really gone from see level to 13,000 feet without moving their sites just must have very slick setups. Or maybe tiny/straight fletch, mechanical heads and a fairly slow bow like 280 fps.
"At home, 36 feet elevation, If my bow is sited in at 80+ yds with fixed blades and I shoot a field point the fp will shoot over the target. At 11,000 feet, when I site in my fixed blades at 80 yds the field point hits the target high but not over the top."
If your bow is sighted in, then your BH's should hit same POI as your BH's. Period. If they are off as much as you say they are, your bow isn't tuned. That's your problem, NOT the change in elevation.
"This is a real situation. But for those that say they see no difference and have really gone from see level to 13,000 feet without moving their sites just must have very slick setups. Or maybe tiny/straight fletch, mechanical heads and a fairly slow bow like 280 fps."
I pretty much blow a hole in your "theory". I don't have a "slick" setup, I have a tuned setup. I shoot fixed blade BH's with a strong helical. As far as your "fairly slow bow like 280 fps" comment, I'd love to have that "slow" bow.
Bow tuning?!? Lol...Who'd a thunk it...90% if not more problems are because of out of tune bows and arrows that wobble like a top at the end of its spin...
Jason, There's lots of good info out there on how to tune your rig so your BH and FP hit same POI. Groups may be a little bigger with fixed BH's, but center of groups should be the same out to 80+.
After your bow is tuned and if your form is good, I think you'll find that elevation has nearly zero affect on your trajectory.
I disagree... Two years ago, we had three of Mathews top shooters in our New Mexivo January mule deer camp. After we got settled into the trailers, they went out to shoot and were shooting 2" to 3" high at 40 yards. They all agreed it was the change in altitude. They were dead on when they left Wisconsin the day before...
My experience is similar to Buglmin. At 10K' my bow was shooting 3" high at 60yds. Made the adjustment, and good thing. Shot my bull 3 days later at dead nuts 60yds. Perfect shot! Returned to eastern Nebraska (1100'), my bow was shooting exactly 3" low at the same yardage. It does have an affect.
Randy Ulmer did an article on this a few years ago, and his suggestion was to check, IF it changed, adjust your limb bolts, not sight, then all pins will be back on.
There is no way field points and fixed blades hit same point of aim at 80+ yds. Especially at sea level. The arrow has more drag with the blades up front. There is no debating that. It simply is not as slick of a projectile. Same configuration of arrows, but one with blades and one with field point (same weight) flying at the same launch speed, the fixed blade arrow will be flying significantly slower at the 80 yd mark. Enough to have a lower point of impact. If there is any side wind at all it is even worse. The difference would be less in thinner air but there will be a measurable difference as long as the shots were made within the earth's atmosphere. Simple physics. Anyone with intelligence understands this. Anyone with experience knows this. Anyone that is delusional argues with this. It is not a tuning problem.
Exactly as said above, it works in reverse. If someone that is sited in at high elevations makes a trip to sea level and they take an 80 yd shot they will hit low.
I'm just going to chalk those that disagree up to the possibility that they have little experience at lower elevations.
Consider rifle bullets. They all have ballastic coefficients that measure the drag based on the shape of the bullet.
A broadhead obviously creates more drag than a field tip. That difference will become noticable at longer distances.
Each person's setup is different. Some folks might see the difference at 40 yards. Some might see it a 120 yards. But there is no denying that there will be a difference at some point.
It most certainly is a tuning issue. I'm not expert, but there are others on this thread that might be dang close, it would pay to listen
I don't shoot to 80. I shoot to 70. When I get my bow all tuned before season, my field points and my fixed blade broadheads will be hitting the same point of impact at 70 yards
I shoot a Mathews Heli-M that probably shoots somewhere between 265 to 275, with 27 inch FMJ arrows, 100 grain fixed blades like VPA or Montecs, with as agressive a right helical on my Blazer vanes that I can get
Adjusting limb bolts can help but it doesn't solve the issue, just a work around. All the pins won't be back on over the whole spectrum from say 50 to 100 yds. It is exponential. In other words, on a slider site, the tape is longer for me at 36 feet than it is at 11,000 feet elevation. Especially the part of the tape from 70 to 100. From 30 to 50 there is hardly a difference but you can see that from 50 to 60 the gap is wider, even wider than that for 60 to 70 and that trend continues the further the shot. I want to say that if lining them up side by side the 11,000 feet elevation tape 100 yd mark lines up with the 36' feet elevation 85 yd mark. This is with fixed blades.
Bake, I would agree with you that your setup at 70 yds would be a smaller poi difference. That is not very fast and the affect of drag leach on you is less at 70 yds than if you were getting 320 fps (with bh). Also, the fmj arrows are reasonably heavy enough to provide some momentum to counter some drag. But there is a difference and you would really see it if you shot out to 100. You would actually see a bigger difference between you bh poi at sea level vs high elevation than you would between bh and fp at a given elvation. At least a foot or more in that last 30 yds to 100. You don't have to be an expert.
Inches are not feet. While I would agree the FBBH at 80 yards will slow down more than the field point, it will only be a matter of a few feet per second, an inch or two at best. Same with the difference in altitude. An inch or two at best. Don't know about 80 yards but I've seen no difference at 60 yards and 10K.
Shooting over the target with FP is a tuning issue. Period.
The baseball and football analogy isn't completely accurate. The resistance of the frontal area and design of a baseball is so many times greater drag than the air seen by an arrow, they are almost incomparable. Much less for a football.
Real easy to test. We know they all leave the bow at the same speed, gravity is a constant. Only variable is terminal velocity. Set up a crono at 80 yards and see exactly what the difference is in FPS.
We'll use your crono..... As Doc Holiday once said "my internet grouping goes only so far...."
Difference between 60yds and 80yds is 25%. That additional 25% in (further) distance the fixed blade arrow is continuing on at an higher rate of deceleration than the field point arrow. The rate of deceleration is faster at sea level than at elevation. There are about 20% more air molecules colliding with all parts of the arrow at sea level than 10,000+ feet elevation. When you step back to 80 or 100 yds at the trailhead and let one go at your small portable target you will say "wtf is going on?",,, out loud. You will be peeling off tape or digging out the allen wrenches. After you find your missed arrows and put new bhs on.
That is precisely my point straight arrow. Just make sure you can reserve yourself to shots on game no further than you have verified once you get to elevation. Two years ago I hunted up to 2200 feet higher than the 10,000' trail head. There was a noticeable difference between 10 and 12,2.
The formulas for momentum and KE need to be thrown out the window. They're useless, since the difference in colliding air molecules at different elevations have never been taken into consideration. Who knew?
Jason, no one has said there isn't ANY difference. However, the experience of most is this...what difference there may be has never been enough to require sight adjustment. Others have said their experience has shown there may be enough of a change to require some sight adjustment. Pretty simple. Like Straight--->>Arrow says, if you need to adjust your sight, then do so.
HOWEVER, you keep trying to convince people that a foot difference at 70yds should be expected, or that a 15yd difference (85yd mark vs 100yd mark) should be expected. Simply not true. If those are your actual results, as has been suggested many times over, you have issues other than elevation. Keep beating your head against the wall chasing your tail, or address the actual problem. Your choice.
I'm one of those flatlanders who will heading west come September, so I have followed this thread with interest. And, yes, I plan to shoot my bow when I get there to see if there is any difference at elevation with my setup. I do have an inexperienced, unintelligent, delusional, and maybe even stupid question for you guys with a lot more knowledge in this area than me.
If there is a difference, instead of adjusting bow sights or backing off 1/4 to 1/2 turn on limb bolts, why not do what golfers do at altitude? For a 200 yard shot, they simply subtract 10% and play it for 180 yards. How close would one be if we did the same thing for a bow shot? For example, shoot a 20 yard shot as 18 yards or a 50 yard shot as 45 yards or an 80 yard shot as 72 yards with no adjustments to pins or limb bolts. Since most shots at game should be relatively close range where only small adjustments would be required, would this work? Maybe 10% isn't the correct % adjustment, but is the concept valid???
In HI I shoot from sea level to 8000 or so all year round. Never any adjustments or noticed any difference in shooting, although oxygen levels are very noticeable when gasping for air.... that and bags of chips will pop open now and then on the drive up. Haleakala on Maui is 10,000, Big Isle goes to 14,000. From sea level of course.... my desk right now is about 12-15 depending on the tide. I hunt a greater change of elevation than many of my friends in the mountains.
ID I've hunted to 10,000, killed elk at 9K. Like I said, out to 60 it has not been an issue, that's right around my outer limits on game. I can't see any difference but I didn't sit up there pounding arrows either, a couple judo points now and then, last ID grouse with a judo was probably 9500, about 35 yards. Spot on.
Put a crono on it.... I think it will be surprising because you are only talking about the DIFFERENCE in FPS between FBBH and field points and the DIFFERENCE between low altitude and higher altitudes and even then only the differences at extreme yardages. Short/moderate yardage will be insignificant.
While you can plan for hunting at very high altitude, why would a person want to sight in at extremely high altitude unless their entire hunt would be there? You would have to do it on site and at altitude. It would only be adjusting your longest pins, certainly not the gang anyway. Personally if I thought it was an issue I'd just hold an inch or two low at the outer edges of my range. But IMO it's not really an issue.
orionsbrother, you're obviously smarter than me to make that conversion in your head and a better shot than me if you figure the distance down to 0.1 meter. ;>)
left handed shooters will be impacted differently, because their arrows spin the opposite way than the rotation of the earth, their arrows "lift" more at altitude (because of less gravity)
unless they're left hand shooting right handed fletch (which is wrong and illegal in most states) ... or if you're right handed shooting lefty stuff (which isn't illegal, just hush hush don't say anything)
it helps to have the "freeze it" call from staalthycat.net ..... you blow it right before you shoot, so the animal "freezes" and doesn't move .... I mean, 100 yard shots you don't want the animal to move a smidgen because that would be horrible right ?
alrighty - back to the beach here in Arkansas, enjoying the waves ....
My point for making the post is the difference in fixed blade poi from sea level to high elevation on very long shots. 60 yds is just knocking on the door and really negligible for a lot of set ups. You would be hard pressed to prove it at 60 especially if you didn't want to believe it. You could get away with not changing your sites at this distance.
To be honest a z7 won't get 320 with those arrows, probably 260 - 280 unless he has a 30 inch draw. Anyway, get him to retake at 10,000 feet variance. Bet he impacts higher if he's honest. Average grouping. Make it a blind / random arrow sequence. He knew what point he was shooting and we can't tell his hold. Even deacons an alter boys can't totally help themselves. Useless.
"I could pull those shots off knowing where they'll hit."
Thing is, he didn't have to adjust for the different heads because his bow is properly tuned. But he's obviously a south paw so he's likely also unintelligent, inexperienced, and delusional. Definitely not a PBM (PhysicsBowMaster).
Also, part of my point is that the faster the bow is the more it is affected by this when shooting fixed blades. And backing off on limb bolts does not satisfy for this like it would on mechanicals or field points. I have a 350 Ibo bow that I get in the 320s in my hunting setup. I also have a really good shooting backup bow that I get 280 with. When both are dead nuts at sea level and then I arrive at 10,000 + the faster one shoots twice as high as the slow one out past 70. That fast bow is at least a foot high at 100. Maybe more. Of corse this is not scientific but I'm certain the result would be disasterous if I took a shot past 70 and punched the release anywhere near center mass. To tell the truth, like I said in my opening post, I succumbed to this exact situation. And like a said, am ashamed I did. The huge bull heard the shot and lunged forward about a whole body length before the arrow got there and it sailed over his rump. I'll never attempt it again. Unless his head was stuck in a cookie jar. Since then I have shot and shot and each year same result when I get up high. I make site adjustments just because. Except last year, I took my longbow. Anyway, I'm done with my point making. It was my thread wasn't it? I recall now why I go long stints away from here. The dog pack is growing and getting more ferocious. Super heroes are are piling up too.
I just really wanted to help guys in my situation. That come from low down like me with similar equipment that's all. Truly wasn't wanting to pick a fight with the bow gods that know everything and shall never be challenged because they have seen it all, done it all and wrote the book. And they are not just the gods of the bow. They know much more than just bow tuning. Ask them. They have covered the continent and beyond. And they do it on a regular basis. They actually never sleep.
My rule of thumb for hunting is to reduce by 1/3 to 1/2 my effective TARGET shooting distance. LOTS of variables under hunting conditions, not to mention correctly assessing shot angles. In the more open conditions of the west it's not a critical as in the whitetail cover we hunt here in the midwest.
That said, the only trajectory issues I've ever encountered are steep up or down angle shots. The only effect elevation ever had on my shooting was when I couldn't catch my breath after climbing a steep ridge at 10,000+ feet!
Jason - I was just joking around after another long day at work. I meant no harm. I don't think anyone else did either.
If you're seeing large differences in point of impact between your field points and broadheads, you should tune your bow. The guys pointing that out are trying to help.
There's no dog pack here, ferocious or not. And while they're not bow gods, their opinion and knowledge are worthy of consideration.
From time to time, my wife will call me "God's gift to women and bowhunting", but she usually rolls her eyes or snorts afterwards.
"Truly wasn't wanting to pick a fight with the bow gods that know everything and shall never be challenged because they have seen it all, done it all and wrote the book."
"Simple physics. Anyone with intelligence understands this. Anyone with experience knows this. Anyone that is delusional argues with this."
Nothing wrong with good debate and discussion but you tend to rub people the wrong way with statements like this so expect some lashing back. Hope you have a great season!
There's so many variables, that the best bet is ignore physics (cause 99% of the world doesn't understand it enough to account for the variables, we all just have high school physics equations in our head - so we're all wrong).
When you get there SHOOT YOUR BOW. Anything could have happened: - sight got knocked - air density issues (which is what we are talking about here - altitude, humidity, temperature all matter) - heck even gravity if you want to get picky (it gets less as altitude gets higher)
Just shoot the bow when you get there, adjust as you must and go hunting. Simple.
I have a friend who writes software for DOD, the things she has to figure out to see where a rocket hits is mind boggling. Everything thing from gravity, weather, earths rotation, earth curvature, ballistic coefficient of the rocket, dwindling fuel load etc.
Yes we aren't shooting that far (though this post seems to cross into 70 yards as "short"), the point is, the physics behind it is WAY more complicated than us mere mortals can possibly understand.
Jason, can you give us some numbers on your velocity lost at say 75 yards?
I would say that your theory is an accurate one, although some guys appear to want to jump on certain points you have made for some reason. However, it would seem to me that the difference in accuracy you are experiencing seems a TAD large.
I should add that if accounting for potential differences due to drag at all yardages are part of one's tuning regiment, then it is what it is, and we are simply talking about semantics.
so, if there is enough difference in wind resistance to affect BH at different elevations, would the shooter need to increase his vane/feather size to get the same amount of arrow stabilization due to thinner air?
oldgoat, I didn't think so. I'm feeling a little sarcastic this morning so I threw that in. personally I don't see enough 'wing surface' on a BH blade to see any noticeable difference in air resistance and if there was it would affect the fletching also. JMO.
I'm guessing it's gravity that's making your arrows shoot high. The higher you are in elevation, the farther you are from the center of mass of the earth and the lower the gravity will be.
This will not only affect your arrow in flight but at the moment of release will also make your bow arm spring upwards more than it does at sea level due to less gravity pulling it downward. This sudden upward lifting of your arm is obviously the main cause of your arrows hitting high at altitude.
The solution is simple... carry a gravity meter with you and correct accordingly ;^)
This isn't rocket surgery. Shoot a stump when you get there and call it good, or take shots under 40 yards and not worry about it. I still suggest shoting the stump though just because it's fun.
You know after reading these posts I have a new excuse for missing all those shots from the tree stand last year, I'm starting to like the OP's line of thinking!
When sighting in at sea level and shooting an elk at 10K ft, simply shoot the elk from 30 feet of depth from an alpine lake and the atmospheric pressures will offset each other.
Rambo and Chuck Norris have found situations necessitating these considerations while hunting in the mountains of Southeast Asia and their adjustments proved accurate in real-world, boots-on-the-ground rescues of MIA service members. Factors do start to change when attaching dynamite to arrows, but now I'm starting to get off-topic.
Sorry for the tongue-in-cheek comment. I can't help myself because I'm a bad person.
In all seriousness, I have a small difference in BH arrow flight at elevation, but it's a couple inches at distance, no where near a foot. My guess is that, even though I came into this thread believing that there was something to what you claim, I agree with others that it's likely that you have a tuning issue as well and it's possible that your tuning issue is showing up more at elevation.
trophy8, not much that I can tell. 60 is not that far and speed is still up on Bh at that distance. But after that it falls off quicker. Just doesn't fall off as quick when I shoot at high elevations as it does at home.
Idylwildarher, you say just a couple inches at distance? What distance? 70, 80, 90 or 100? If at 90 to 100, a couple inches off but still noticeable never the less? Seriously? Wow! You need an agent!
This is what I'm talking about. These guys are simply infallible.
I practice to 70 yards and my farthest elk shot was 45 yards, most are around 20 yards. I'm not all that concerned with what my arrow does at 100 yards, but then again my bow is slow enough that my arrow probably doesn't drop at all unless I'm shooting my curve or slider arrow...
You know after reading these posts I have a new excuse for missing all those shots from the tree stand last year, I'm starting to like the OP's line of thinking!
Midwest, I was trying to make the point that my Bh is loosing steam and hitting lower than fp at 80+ and that eventually it is high enough that it is above a reasonable target. But yes, the difference from 60 to 80 yds is more.
So seriously, who out there really believes their fbbh coefficient is the same as their field point. Who really believes that both arrow configurations have the same flight path. Who really believes that they both can go the same distance. I will meet you anywhere in the U.S. with ten grand in my pocket if you pull it off. Same arrow just differen point. Provide those specs.
You are crazy if you think your fbbh is getting to the 100 yd mark at the same exact time as your fp. That is the only thing that affects trajectory. How long it is in flight. You can't tune a bow to make the fbbh fly faster down range. You can set you bow up so you are grouping at a given distance but if you change the atmospheric conditions that set up is got to be revised. Those that say it's no big deal are just planning to mentally compensate with hold. That's cool. But the guys that say it is nothing but a tuning problem are a joke. They are ignorant is probably a better word but the fact that they vehemently argue it makes them a joke.
You're coming off as being the ignorant one here in that you refuse to listen to the good advice that you've got a tuning problem if you're off a foot, as you wrote above. I don't care if that was meant to be a foot at 60 yards, 80 yards or 100 yards. If not a tuning problem then it's a form issue.
I don't disagree there will be some difference between FBBH impact and FP impact at 100 yards but it'll be measured by a few inches at 100 yards, not a foot or more, if your bow is tuned perfectly and your form is perfect.
Hey....You want to re-sight your bow up there, go for it. Great idea. Knock yourself out.
But you're the one whiffing entire elk at 70+ yards, saying 60 not far and then calling a bunch of guys posting here, who I know for a fact have put literally tons of elk on the ground at high altitude.... calling them crazy, ignorant and jokes.... good grief....
Keep on diggin' son, keep on diggin'... things are kinda slow around here since the hamblaster threads....
Tilzbow, you get the benefit of doubt here. If you read you see that I don't claim a foot difference between fp and fbbh at a given elevation. What I claim is that when sited in at sea level at 100 yds that my fbbh are poi about a foot higher at 11000 feet elevation. There is a difference for sure between fp and fbbh at a given elevation but not a foot for sure. Again the foot is from sea level to 11000.
That elk was at 90 not 70 and 60 is not far. How deap am I now. I've got elk on he ground too bud.
Hey, I'm havin fun too. Why do you think I keep checking this thread? I really do enjoy watching you guys bumping elbows. If I ran in to you somewhere I would truly get a kick out of watching how you would react after you realize I am the hard head with out of tune bow that wouldn't shut up. But I still think the bow tune pack are a joke.
I suppose this one should have been in the scapula.
When I said "at distance," what I meant was 80 yards. I should have specified that. You got me there.
To your combativeness, I'll point out that I agreed with your premise, but I don't see it at real kill-shot distances. Your OP was a warning for people going from sea level to 10K ft, while taking irresponsible/foolish 90 yd shots as you were courageous enough to admit that you did and I'll agree with that premise, that there could be a difference. People like me are going to see it more since I shoot a 52 lb bow and a 430 Gn arrow, so how much more evident in my case, although not.
That's my experience practicing at different elevations. No 1 ft misses.
I related my findings, which actually are somewhat in line with yours, albeit not as extreme. That's why I speculate that you have a tuning issue since I'm not the one with arrows going into orbit; you are. As noted above, perhaps it's form. Could it possibly be intrinsic and not extrinsic? Perhaps?
Again, I do see my shots with BHs lifting a little with elevation, but perhaps consider that everyone else's experience here not matching yours, either closely or entirely, could possibly mean that your exact experience is not the norm and that there could be a reason for that, that you are missing.
You've obviously considered the possibility that you're 100% right. Now try to consider the possibility that you're 99% right. Someday, you might shoot for 98%.
I really don't know trophy8. Seriously, I have never taken a tape measure to my target. They are separating from each other past 60 though and by the time I get to 100 yds there is definately a lower poi for the fbbh. It may be about 6 inches at 100 at sea level. On average groups. The foot is not with this comparison. It is with fbbh at sea level vs 11000 at around 100 yds. This is the fast bow. It is tuned pretty good I promise.
I really appreciate your last response idylwildarcher. Really.
I think what I am trying to point out, which is hard to do because I am not scientifically controlled enough to pass the acceptable standards by the bow tune pack, is that faster bows suffer more effect of drag with fbbh than slower bows. This is more apparent at long ranges when contrasting the change in elevation. The bow tuner pros are mitigating and they are somewhat misrepresenting what they are accomplishing in reality whether they know it or not. Some of them would never admit it.
I'm no TBM. But I am having fun callin out he guys that swear a fbbh fly exactly like a fp. Please, common guys, where are yall at? This is not a debate free thread. Prove me wrong.
Old goat, probably, at least the trailing edge. I've thought of it but done nothing. Something like a Magnus stinger. I'd like to see manufacturers work on this. It would have to be more than just that though because stingers are one of the heads that suffer a lot of loss at distance. One of the best I tried were old thin bladeed beacon skinners but they lose blades on a decent impact so I abandoned them.
"I'm no TBM. But I am having fun callin out he guys that swear a fbbh fly exactly like a fp. Please, common guys, where are yall at? This is not a debate free thread. Prove me wrong."
If all else is equal, gravity will decrease with altitude. However, altitude's effect is minimal. The arrow would only lose about .31% of its weight at 11,000 ft.
Gravity not only varies with altitude, it also can vary with location (even at sea level). Frequently gravity is higher in a mountainous area. (9.796 m/s^2 for Denver vs 9.782 m/s^2 for Panama Canal)
The arrow would also be heavier due to being less buoyant. Yes, air effects weight just like water.
The mass density of air will decrease with altitude and that will DECREASE drag, which would INCREASE an arrow's speed. The increase in speed will INCREASE drag, which would DECREASE an arrow's speed. And according to the drag formula, velocity's influence is squared. That is, it has a much bigger effect on drag than the mass density of the air.
So will an arrow shoot 12" higher at 11,000 ft. when shot at 100 yards? ...... Maybe.
I'd say 60 and out is about where the separation starts to be noticed. Sixty is about where the fbbh start to show the suffer of drag over the fp. I can make them hit the same spot at sixty. The fbbh are not erratic. I think my arrow is in the neighborhood of 385 grn.
60 is no big deal. I'm assuming you are asking about the difference in poi between fp and fbbh at a given elevation? I can say that the poi between fbbh and fp will stay closer together for further distances when shot at higher elevations. When shot at lower elevations like sea level the fbbh will bless off at a faster rate.
Midwest that video is a joke. Like a said, I can do that knowing what I need to hold. And he knows his hold and for that setup it may only be 6 inches or so. And if you think that's a group worthy of proving anything you are the joker.
Yes Midwest I do believe that most of the drop occurres at the end of the shot rather that the first 20 yds. Do you think it should drop more in the beginning or the end?
No...it was your statement that anyone that argues with you is an inexperienced, delusional, idiot that rubbed me the wrong way. That, and a few Bowsite cocktails. I'm bored....I'll shut up now....I think I'll go shoot my bow.
Sure....go ahead and post up a video of you shooting a 100 yard group. Hold over, under, whatever. Shoot it several times until you get a good group, I don't care.
I live at 4,600 and I don't notice a difference until about 80 yards, at 100 yards it's only a couple inches difference between FBBH and FP. I live in the most mountainess state in the U.S., I've hunted the Rubies more times than I can remember and I've never given this issue a second thought but I don't live at sea level either.
I shot on Mars once and the difference was minimal. I have video proof! Anyone else visualizing Arnie's eyes popping out of his head right now?!?! Anyone have no freaking idea what I'm writing about?!?!
stealthykitty - There was some show, wardens of Maine or something. I didn't see it, but there had been a thread about it. Apparently one of the wardens on the show explained that there was a problem with shooting an animal with a bow at less than twenty yards because the arrow hasn't gotten up to speed.
That two yard momentum calculation might be disapointing. At that point, the arrow hasn't even revved up.
stealthykitty, I'm pretty sure he meant that at 60 yards he doesn't have a lot of difference in POI.
Not far = not far off.
not a lot of difference = POI
You can ascertain this be reading the question presented and noting how he answered it and take what he said in context with the rest of the post.
He's saying that out to 60 yards, he doesn't have a large difference in POI between FPs and BHs, then after 60 yards, the POI between the two separates.
My last two compounds have been the same- 2" high at 60 yds going from sea level to 10,000'. [tuned bow with bh's and fp's the same out to 60yds]
So many guys gearing up for those long shots on elk...a bad idea IMO. I've seen a bull shot in the azz at 55yds by two pros that shot the ASA 3D tour at the time...animals can move...and its not just that, the fact they can move affects your shot sequence.
I suspect you shoot your bow with a lot of heel. I can take my new bow, I am learning what it likes grip-wise, and it will shoot lights out with my natural grip. What I find is that if I shoot a broadhead it will shoot to the right. I am a lefty so to fix this I add thumb pressure to the bow. Add a little thumb pressure and BAM...right down the middle. My inclination when adding thumb is to add heel...when I do you are looking at a high shot with a broadhead and a decently tuned bow(it is not all the way to my liking yet). The only thing keeping this bow from driving broahdeads right down the pipe is a little grip persuasion, possibly a slight timing adjustment or a slight rest, loop adjustment. I can shoot field points with this bow better than any bow I have ever owned. It is close to being perfect. One thing to mention too is that your broadhead tipped arrow will continue to climb vs a fp when you increase distance. Shooting a foot high at 100 yards would not be at all unlikely with something as simple as a grip issue.
I've had the same exact thing happen as you're describing. If I've got this right a lttle too much heel pressure makes the bottom limb a little stronger and thus faster which then results in a slightly nock low effect and thus a higher impact with broadheads as ranges increase. In fact I've shot completely over my target at 80+ yards with a bow I knew was tuned because previous shots were fine.
I am pretty sure you are correct on the details but as a rule of thumb I know if I add way to much heel my shots will go high. You won't see this too bad with field points but it is easy to see with broadheads.
