Done with blazer vanes...need a quieter
Equipment
Well I'm done with Blazers. I think they are too loud. Guys say it doesn't matter, but I'm sitting here in Arizona after missing 2 big coues deer. 50 yard shots on deer that had no clue I was there. I swear they heard my arrow flying at them and they spun and dodged it. I've shot flex fletch for years and those are quieter. So maybe I'll go back to them?
I notice a noise from mine as well. Not very noticeable to me, but I imagine a weary deer would jump them. I'm about to order my arrow components for this year, maybe I'll grab another brand to test. Still love how accurate my arrows are with the small Blazers though.
Never tried real feathers, maybe some turkey feathers would be a quiet choice?
Justin, sorry to hear. I understand your frustration, but those deer are going to hear the sound of your bow long before they hear the sound of your arrow. Personally, I doubt if the blazers are the reason those deer are reacting to your shot. Either way, hope your luck changes.
Yea I think the bow is more likely. But yesterday I had a buck below me. Wind blowing he had no clue I was there. I shoot he dodges my arrow and the. Stops and looks down hill cuz he has no clue I was there. I figured if he heard the bow he would have looked up. So I reloaded and fired another arrow and same thing. Buck spun and arrow missed. The day before I had a 100" buck and I shot and the arrow was on its way perfect path and that deer spun and dodged it.
The bow makes more sense but it's almost like they hear the arrow and just move in time. I can hear the Blazers hiss pretty loud when I shoot or if your down range when a friend is shooting.
I'm wondering if I had a quieter vane if I would be holding some nice coues antlers?
When I shot flex fletch vanes to my ears they seems considerably quieter but I don't know if it makes a difference.
Super frusterating!
I've shot Blazers since they first came out, and I don't see myself changing. The only time I notice any noise is if a vane's coming loose. Of course, my ears aren't what they used to be either! That said, confidence is a huge factor when shooting. If flex fletch give you that confidence, I wouldn't hesitate changing back.
The only time I have ever noticed the noise of the arrow was after the arrow went past me(taking photos) I've never noticed the arrows noise before and would have to agree that they are hearing the sound of the bow...Especially a small flighty coues deer. They can probably teach a south texas doe a thing or two about speed and jumping the string.
Ermine, definitely agree blazers hiss more than some other vanes as they travel downrange and I've noticed the same thing. It's never impacted me on game though. Do you think that it's possible the deer is looking away after the shot because of the sound of the arrow hitting brush/dirt after it passes by? They look at you hearing the bow and then look away following up because the arrow has hit something on the far side? I'm not sure it will matter or not but as WY said, confidence is everything so I'd change!
Justin,
You are spot on. When I was in Africa, one of the PHs was hung up on quiet fletch and broadheads. He said that when they culled animals, they many times were shooting 70+ yards, with louder setups the animals would turn inside out. He told me that FOBs were the worst.
John Dudley has talked about this in his podcasts but most of the vane discussions is centered around drag.
Have not noticed any hiss from Blazers, at least not under 250 fps. If you're shooting a vented BH, that's more likely the source.
I'm in the bow being the culprit too camp, although the combination of the two probably doesn't help.
for what its worth, I started fletching my arrows with Arizona Archery 4" plastifletch on full helical. No noise, but not so overly stiff they impede penetration or hiss.. They hold a good helical, and have good memory... several pass-throughs already on whitetails and fletch still like brand new.
I'm guessing you've used FF 360's? WAY quieter than the short (blazer style) vanes. My first recommendation would be to go with a long (at least 4") thin vane. You'll notice an immediate difference. Good luck with the coues!
Had a guy on Bowsite (Ermine) recommend flex fletch and they were pretty good but you are hunting a very scared whitetail pursued by Cougars every day. Can you say wired:) Good luck! C
Coues are string jumpers no doubt!
I was wondering if AZ AR vanes were quieter as well, and will be interested in people opinions. The other thing is the high profile on the Blazers and adequate riser clearance on a couple of my older compounds (Mathews LX specifically seems a bit lacking where it tunes best).
I shot feathers forever when finger shooting (and with the LX with a release).. Feathers are fairly noisy in flight but that never stopped my from killing well over 100 head of all kinds of big game with them.....some at short and some at longer yardages, with much slower arrow speeds than we shoot today. So obviously the bow noise is a factor too, likely the most critical one.
Flex-Fletch seem to be quieter than blazers in a test we did.
Justin,
We may never know for sure.....but, my money is string jumping the sound of the bow. It is the loudest part of the equation we are debating and the first thing that creates noise is the release of the string.....all on an animal that is "super wired !"
Mark
A few years ago Bowhunter TV did a test where they hid a guy behind a safe wall. He held a stick out with a target on it. He was able to move the target out of the way EVERY time before the arrow got there. He was doing this at the sound of the bow. Obviously animals do this but I truly believe that since their reaction time is so amazing they are also fast enough to move away from an arrow they hear sizzling at them. There is no doubt in my mind too that animals can and do hear arrows flying through the air.
If you have ever been down range of these loud setups like blazers coupled with Slick Tricks you know how loud they actually are. My bet is Justin is spot on. He knows enough about bowhunting, is hunting an animal that is a bundle of nerves, knows his ability and knows his setup. I am in the camp that animals can hear arrows coming their way and will react at times.
I would hate to be a Coues deer with Justin after me. Good luck bud. Flex fletch for me. Hunt
I don't know that blazers are that much louder than anything else out there. Feathers are loudest by far, but I never hear of anyone switching because of flight noise.
Have someone (with good hearing, I'd be out...) in a safe place downrange listen and shoot a blazer arrow with broadhead and a FP by them. I'm guessing the broadhead is as or more noise difference than the fletching.
We hunt axis off the ground and they are string jumpin' sons as well. I've noticed a much higher rate in close than farther away. I'm in the bow noise camp as well. I think flight noise is a much more natural sound, like birds zipping by. That's my theory anyway.
But.... if you think the 4" low profile are quieter and it will help then that is what I would do. Might even fly a touch better than those 2" vanes even, never know. I know there is less tendency to hang up in the animal. In the grand scheme of things.... worth a try and certainly can't hurt.
Thanks for the input guys.
I could understand them ducking at 20 yards but 50 yards with windy conditions and an un suspecting deer has me scratching my head. But these coues deer are super skiddish I guess.
I'm a big fan of flex fletch. Been using them for years. Tried some new arrows this year and went to Blazers for some reason. I'm likely to go back to them now.
I listened to a buddy shoot his bow at 100 yards. I stood by the target. He was shooting Blazers. You could hear the bow thud quietly and then you could hear seconds of a rocket sounding noise coming at the target. Got me thinking how loud these vanes really might be.
Yea it's likely the bow but I don't know how to make it more quieter than it already is? The arrow isn't missing them by 3 feet. It looks like inches like they are spinning literally inches before the arrow gets there. I don't know how you kill them then? Got to aim for the where there gonna go I guess like the butt and 2 feet low I guess lol. Or find a deaf one.
They sure are jumpy critters. But man seems it's a heart breaker.. Feel like Ive worked so hard. Rugged rugged mtns... perfect stalk. But that's hunting and the fun of it!!! Sorry for whining :)
Took at practice shot at 111 yards for kicks and to mentally tell myself my shooting is on! Not me..just the deer moving
The company Firenock makes a vane call the AeroVane which I have been pretty impressed with. Seems significantly quitter. A little pricey, but I have been happy with them.
In September I watched a dragonfly land on a forkhorns antler. What struck me was how loud the dragonfly was. I was about 25 yards away from the buck and I heard it coming. The buck ignored it.
I had the same thing with pronghorns back in the 80's and early 90's. At 50 yards, they'd look at the arrow, take two steps forward, and watch it go by.
And that was with a much slower bow, 4" fletch, and Thunderhead 125's.
I even had one quartering away right side, that I hit quartering away, left side, at 25 yards. That was with a 60 lb longbow, feathers, and a solid 3 blade.
I just quit shooting at them at more than 30 yards. Problem solved.
Fidgety animals like pronghorn and coues deer are just pros at being alert. I'm not sure it has anything to do with your equipment.
The question is, how close is the arrow before the animal hears it? If they begin to hear it past 15 yards out, I believe they could react to it. If they hear it as danger within 15 yards, I believe it is too late and they can't react fast enough.
Give Nitro Vanes from Pine Ridge Archery a try. Seem a little quieter.
50 yard shots at likely one of the quickest reacting NA big game animals, and blaming the arrow vanes... Hmmmm, guess I'll never understand... Maybe ya need one of those air arrow guns instead...
Zbone, have you every been out west and hunted the open terrain? I am sorry but 50 yards in the open country that coues live in is not your backyard wood lot . Good luck Justin !
I was a big fan of Fletch Flex but last year switched to VaneTec based on a recommendation from a very knowledgeable shooter. I am very impressed with them. Very similar to Fletch Flex just not the required prep work.
A few years back I tried 8-9 different vanes. Some sang all the way to the target. The quietest I found are FlexFletch FFP-360. I tried SK-30o last summer, very quiet.
Yep, hunted west plenty, including AZ a couple times, even lived in Colorado a couple years... 50 yards at a lightening quick animal, come onnnnn... What's the speed of sound, (1125.33 fps) no bow is gong to approach that speed, he!! a .45 ACP doesn't even travel that fast, and to think the animal is going to hear the arrow before hearing the sound of the bow is ludicrous... Its just common sense...
If you're going to kill a lightening quick animal at that range, use a firearm... Okay, now I'll bow (pun intended) out and let the flaming begin...
Blazers are ridiculously loud, that's why I have always refused to use them. The Flex Fletch SK 300s are hands down the quietest, and best hunting vane in the industry. Call Flex Fletch they will set you up.
I would definitely evaluate my vane and arrow selection seeking a quiet set up.
HOWEVER
Having hunted Coues from a treestand I can tell you that ANY noise is the not good for the hunter. Years ago (Pre Lmbsavers Etc.) my solution was to coat my entire bow with moleskin. It helped but I still wanted more.
If I was hunting them this way today I would focus on making my Bow quiet as well as the arrow.
I often wondered about my 4" helical feathered arrows making noise. I've always shot vented broadheads too.
At longer distances and high wind the sound of the bow is much less of an issue at closer distance. Jumpy animals like Coues deer can drop out of sight at close distances at the sound of the bow. To think they they absolutely would never respond to an arrow that sounds like a jet coming at them seems a bit short sided to me.
The PH I talked to in Africa not only was hung up on fletching he also had tested tons of mechanical heads. The method they came up with that worked best was to remove the O-ring/rubber band from his heads and add just the smallest amount of super glue to keep them shut. He said this produced super quiet setups and when they were shooting long distance at jumpy animals like Impala it paid off big time.
All I can say is get down range of someone shooting blazers and slick tricks and tell me it doesn't make a crap load of noise.
50 yards?? Maybe you should try getting closer. Isn't that what bowhunting is all about.
The farther the distance the more chance your arrow has to whistle Dixie.
Zbone- yea you might be right. My train of thought thou was a little further distance would be better for them not hearing the bow and ducking the arrow. I might be wrong but I think deer have an "explosive" range. A range where when sound is so close they explode. I've always thou the explosive range was under 30 etc. but I could be off. A few years ago the owner of b stinger told me that they were trying to kill coues deer off of a waterhole the shots were 20 yards. The deer were in their explosive range and would dodge the arrow, he said they finally had to set them selves up longer range 50-60 yards so that the deer didn't hear the bow and they started killing them.
Bullwinkle- have you hunted coues? In the country I'm in 50 yards is about as close as its gonna get. Wide open country. Loose rock. You can't walk with out loose rock grinding on rock. It looks flat and grassy but it's really rocky as all get out. I think being even closer would make for them to dodge the arrow even better because the sound of the bow is louder. I know plenty of guys who have had coues duck the arrow at 10...20 yards out of tree stands. But maybe getting closer is the ticket!
I still think the arrow sounding like a rocket is what caused the miss.
Go listen to a blazer vane arrow down range? It's loud!!
Yea, you need to get closer. Like 5 yards. You can do it. ;)
Justin, About 20 yrs ago a very successful Coues deer hunter from Tucson told me that he was shooting all his bucks at over 60 yds. That was the magical distance that they quit jumping the string. He was a very successful bowhunter, shooting a very heavy set of PSE limbs on a custom riser he designed and had machined (shoot thru if I recall correctly). I've lost track of him but it corresponds with what you are thinking about. His screaming fast bow for the day was over 300 fps if I remember right.
Myself, I've shot Coues out as far as 30 yds, but had them jump the string at closer yardage than that, including an estimated 120" buck about 25 years ago! He was likely the best critter of any of the species I ever shot or shot at! It haunted me for years but he was 10' out of the way when the 23-15 from a slow and quiet Hoyt Pro-Vantage got there from under 30 yards. He was following a doe at the time and fairly pre-occupied!
Kurt
If you really wanna k ow about how much noise the different fletchings make, just get yourself a decibel meter app, shield your phone and shoot past it. You should be able to see a graph that shows the sound profile from shot to impact.
All fletchings stabilize by drag, so based on that you might think that enough drag to do the job will necessarily produce X amount of noise, regardless of configuration. On the other hand, very small vanes that induce a large amount of spin may be louder because the drag is created more abruptly.
So you can always experiment.... We've kinda beaten the whole subject to death on Leatherwall, and the consensus is pretty much that big, helical fletchings tend to make a lot of noise... 4" parabolics seem to be the favorite among the Trad oriented, and a few wrongheaded modernists actually report good results from three inchers.... And a couple of absolute heretics will go so far as to only use two....
Higher FOC allows you to get by with less feather.
And you can read up on turbulators.
FWIW.... When these deer jump, are they jumping at the release, or does it look like they are reacting at the last instant? On a 50-yard shot, you should be able to tell.
And of course there's no telling what amount of noise an arrow will produce that's outside the range of human hearing.... Dog Whistle effect.
At least with feathers there's a greater chance of your arrow sounding like a bird.
Last thought - FWIW I agree with you about animals having an "explosive" range. Has to vary by species, terrain, predators, pressure... All that. I used to swap posts with a guy from MD who had wounded a dozen and a half whitetails in a single season with his crossbow at about 18-20 yards. Turns out it was so loud the deer would about turn themselves inside out trying to jump away from the report. Once he started letting them get in to about 10-12 yards, they still jumped, but it no longer mattered...
So here's wishing you better luck and shorter shot opportunities....
The noise an arrow makes is generated by turbulence. The turbulence created by fletching, especially plastic fletching, is greatest before it has stabilized the spin of the arrow. Blazers, which are higher profile and stiffer than many vanes, stabilize the arrow more quickly. Thus, they might start out a bit noisier, but should be quieter as they get down range. Any vented BH is likely to be noisier than even feathers.
Justin. Looking at your trophy photos, you switched BHs recently. Did you switch fletching at about the same time?
Where's one of those broadhead testing dudes we have here? Do a vane test.
This shouldn't be that hard to figure out. A decibel meter downrange would make for some interesting material, especially in slow-mo. Someone geek out on this please.
Another thought. I've rarely seen an animal jump at sound, unless it's obviously not natural, and occurs close by. They don't duck when a bird flies by, or a rock rolls. What you are seeing may be something else, or something more. Deer, especially open terrain deer and other animals, have especially good eyesight, and especially for movement. It may be they first see the flash of the arrow leaving the bow, followed by the unnatural sound of the bow, which commits them to react. In open terrain on a sunny day, sight AND sound may be the culprit.
Feathers are quiet. I know some guys that shoot longer lower profile target style vanes 4 fletch for hunting Axis/Chital deer for that reason. They I think they are 3".
Ziek- yea when I switched arrows I'm still shooting same Broadheads. I am a fixed blade guy but I guess an expandable would be quieter. Maybe in the future I will use expandables on coues. I did watch some does a few times thru a spotting scope flinch and jump when a tweety bird flew past them. Maybe the sound or just the movement. But man they are jumping if a tweety bird makes them jump.
I'm gonna most likely go back to flex fletch vanes. I'll do some testing. Don't know how to make my bow anymore quieter other than bumping up the arrow weight more. I know heavier arrows help quiet bows.
Justin,
I think Ziek is on to something as well.....a super low profile mech like the old TT Ulmer Edge for example might be a great option in regards to noise reduction.
Also, the UE would be good in the wind and at longer distances from an accuracy standpoint.
Wish you were posting up a pick of a 110" deer, but at least we are all learning!
Mark
I remember the episode Bowfreak was refering to and if a person can string jump its a surprise any of us get anything but I would be in the camp of noise and motion being the culprit. Maybe a ground blind over a waterhole then put some Benadryl in there I don't know the ratio should be in the directions. If that doesn't work maybe burning some Co weed will have them eating cheetoes out of your hand!
"Someone geek out on this please."
ROTFLMAO.... that's great. Perfect in fact, to me an instant Bowsite classic.... heheheheh...
There are a few opinionated posters who have obviously not hunted coues deer much on this thread.
Have any of you guys had the same problems with desert mule deer? They can be pretty nervous as well.
In my experience, desert mulies are no where near coues in terms of string jumping - and not even close.
There are stories from reputable people I know who who have had coues duck to the point of a miss inside 20 yards. Reaching out to 50 yards likely makes that less likely than more IMO.
The noise of the arrow/vanes grows in volume over distance, and arrives at the deers ears prior to the string pop.
I did the calculations on broadhead noise a few years ago, and below is my data and I think it is germane to vane noise;
"Sound travels approximately 1100 feet per second at sea level. Less feet per second at higher altitudes, but a lot faster than the arrow. ( you don’t hunt at those higher altitudes that would make sound travel slower )
Both sounds, the string and the arrowhead, reach a deer’s ears, at 20 yards in 0.0545 seconds, but time wise on a 30 inch arrow, the small broadhead noise arrives 0.0027 seconds prior to the big pop of the string.
Say your bow shoots 280 feet per second, then the physical arrow arrives at the deers chest cavity, or the ham, depending on what shot you choose [ :^) ], in 0.2143 seconds.
If we want, we can subtract the time of sound travel out to 20 yards ( 0.2143 minus 0.0545), giving the deer a total reaction time of 0.1598 seconds before the arrow arrives in the ribs or ham. We all know this is more than enough time for a whitetail to jump a string. Again, the arrow travels to the deer in 0.214 seconds, and the sound travels to the deer in 0.0545
Again, the time between the leading quiet arrowhead sound, and the lagging BANG of the string is 0.0027 seconds on a 30 inch arrow.
So contending with string Pop, I am not sure that the 0.0027 seconds faster that the broadhead sound travels make a difference within short bowhunting distances ( less than 40 yards ). I do believe a deer takes longer than 0.0027 seconds to react.
Now at longer distances, broadhead noise could be a factor, say if you are shooting past 50 or 60 yards. This is because the arrowhead is traveling, and the amplitude will seem to be steady and growing (Doppler effect), while the POP of the string is a single finite event, and is attenuated proportional to distance."
The vanes are not the problem.....it's the nature of the beast you're pursuing.
Do Coues deer turn inside out every time a bee buzzes by? Seriously, I understand that the sound of a bow going off could send a deer into convulsions, but the gradual increasing hiss of an arrow, I'm not sure. How can we get an arrow going 280 without any noise so we can test this theory?
Last August was bowhunting muleys in northern Arizona and I stopped my atv on the way back to camp, put my right hearing aid on the gas tank and cell called my wife. Later in camp, realized that I had no aid in my right ear....drove back on the atv trail to the spot and searched all over..no luck....gave up and headed back to camp..it was hot and mid-day and came upon the biggest buck I saw the whole trip...45 yards and broadside. I thought my set up was deadly quiet but the buck just hopped out of the way while my shot was In-coming!! I called my wife at home in Calif. and told her the sad story...her immediate reply was that the buck obviously found my hearing aid!!
Joe
I suspect the Coues deer shot from blinds jump the string less due to the sound attenuation of the blind. The arrow noise would not be affected but the bow noise would be reduced. 12yards, this would be about the quietest way to get the arrow going!
I've killed my 6 Coues without a blind, so am looking for comments from blind hunters regarding string jumping.
Just to be clear, I was NOT recommending a mechanical BH. I would recommend a non vented fixed blade, like VPA. While maybe a bit counter-intuitive, a slower (heavier) arrow is also quieter in addition to quieting the bow. You're never going to shoot one faster than the speed of sound anyway.
Oh yea Ziek I understood what you meant. I'm not an expandable guy but I might use them for coues. Such little animals.and possible quieter flight.
Another interesting fact which may or may not coincide with my blazer vane setup is that the antelope I shot this year did the same thing spun while arrow was enroute but the arrow caught him. Up until changing arrows and using blazer Vanes I've never had an animal try dodging my arrow. It could be reaction to the bow but I've killed a lot of antelope and some other animals and never had an issue
I don't think I fully agree with Tony's analysis of broadhead noise reaching the deer before the "pop" of the bow, but since his conclusion is that it can't possibly make any difference... I'll go along with that part....
And to Ziek's point....
Noise results from turbulence results from aerodynamic drag, which increases exponentially with velocity.
A slower, heavier arrow (identically fletched) experiences a lower peak drag level, yet had greater inertia working in its favor to off-set that drag, so the net loss in velocity is reduced.
So it is at least mathematically possible for the heavier arrow to have a higher instantaneous velocity at some distance down-range. A lot of shooting writers have described this as "catching up" to the faster arrow, which (short of a flu-flu) is just Not Gonna Happen. If it did, flight shooters would be taking advantage of that.
And also, since sound (volume) dissipates exponentially over distance, a quieter arrow might not provoke a response (loud enough to be alarming) until it was substantially closer.
Anyway, point being that a slower, heavier, quieter arrow could give less warning time, a lower-volume warning "signal", and not be flying all that much slower between 40 and 50 yards...
Sometimes it pays off to come in low, slow, and under the radar...
"I don't think I fully agree with Tony's analysis of broadhead noise reaching the deer before the "pop" of the bow"
Pure physics. The broadhead and string are moving simultaneously at the same speed, and the broadhead is 30 inches in front of the bowstring. ( assuming a 30 inch arrow )
The speed of sound is applicable to both, instantaneously, and simultaneously, and since the broadhead leads the bowstring, the sound of the broadhead also leads the bowstring.
The key is a small head noise arriving at .0027 seconds faster than the BIG BANG of the string. ( assuming an arrow speed of 280 feet per second )
If it's fletching noise as in the OP we're only talking about 4" give or take... what does that work out to be? =D
TD, not enough to matter, since the fletching is a couple of inches in front of the bowstring.
The fletching noise arrives at the deers ear at 0.000096 seconds before the loud pop of the string.
This is not enough time for a deer to react.
Broadhead noise at 60 yards, maybe. Fletching noise, - no time to react before the big pop of the string.
:-)
I've been shooting Aae promax lately. Much quieter than Blazers... I noticed the arrow flights noise with blazers, I don't with the promax. I'll send you a few if you want, pm me.
Ermine, if I remember correctly, you use wackems.
They are the loudest BH down range that I've tested. I tested a bunch of different BHs, having my dad fire them from 40 yards away with me standing next to the target behind a big oak.
Wackems are crazy loud. So are Thunderheads.
Have your friend fire a Wackem then a field point with you down range and notice the difference. (Be careful, of course).
Blazers definitely make noise too, but if you want to quiet down your arrow, you need to change BHs. If you want to stick with a COC BH, try a VPA non-vented.
Those deer are seriously jumpy. I think there afraid of there own shadow. I guess I would be if everything was trying to eat me.
I shot my buck at 29yds and he jumped the string but I was told to aim low and that's what I did.
My bow was pretty quiet, but he most likely heard the bow when I shot and I was in a ground blind.
You might want to ask Blacktail Bob what his wife Lisa and he uses since they seem to get it done every year on coues deer.
Also Paulatthefort has been killing them on a reqular basis.
Good luck and keep after them!
Also take a look at the Areovanes II & III there extremely quiet.
Another vane is the Fusion Vane from Norway.
This is an interesting topic. For all intent and purpose, the noise of the bow and the first of the arrow noise reach the deer at the same time along with the sound of the release. The bow/release noise may over power the arrow noise initially. However the arrow noise is continuous and gets louder to the deer as it gets closer to the deer. It is loudest just at impact but of course that is too late for the deer to react. When a number of people are shooting bows we can hear the bows but unless an arrow goes by us close I do not recall hearing arrows fly except for the sound of the impact which is easily heard, unless the arrow is a flu flu. Deer can hear better than us and we can hear a flu flu in flight from a reasonable distance so deer should be able to hear an arrow coming at a reasonable distance. I would think that arrow noise may be an issue. However, even the quietest bow make a lot more noise than an arrow? So if the bow noise which for the most part gets there first does not cause the deer to move will the arrow noise? Maybe if loud enough and the bow noise already has the deer's attention. I surely do not know. The longer the shot the more likely it is that the deer movement was triggered by arrow noise with the bow noise alerting the deer. It is worth make some effort to keep arrow noise down, maybe.
If you really wanna k ow about how much noise the different fletchings make, just get yourself a decibel meter app, shield your phone and shoot past it. You should be able to see a graph that shows the sound profile from shot to impact.
All fletchings stabilize by drag, so based on that you might think that enough drag to do the job will necessarily produce X amount of noise, regardless of configuration. On the other hand, very small vanes that induce a large amount of spin may be louder because the drag is created more abruptly.
So you can always experiment.... We've kinda beaten the whole subject to death on Leatherwall, and the consensus is pretty much that big, helical fletchings tend to make a lot of noise... 4" parabolics seem to be the favorite among the Trad oriented, and a few wrongheaded modernists actually report good results from three inchers.... And a couple of absolute heretics will go so far as to only use two....
Higher FOC allows you to get by with less feather.
And you can read up on turbulators.
FWIW.... When these deer jump, are they jumping at the release, or does it look like they are reacting at the last instant? On a 50-yard shot, you should be able to tell.
And of course there's no telling what amount of noise an arrow will produce that's outside the range of human hearing.... Dog Whistle effect.
At least with feathers there's a greater chance of your arrow sounding like a bird.
Last thought - FWIW I agree with you about animals having an "explosive" range. Has to vary by species, terrain, predators, pressure... All that. I used to swap posts with a guy from MD who had wounded a dozen and a half whitetails in a single season with his crossbow at about 18-20 yards. Turns out it was so loud the deer would about turn themselves inside out trying to jump away from the report. Once he started letting them get in to about 10-12 yards, they still jumped, but it no longer mattered...
So here's wishing you better luck and shorter shot opportunities....
I spoke with an Arizona resident who kills big coues deer. He has killed 5 over 100" bucks in the last 5 years. He immediately asked me what vanes I was using? He said for sure it could have been the vanes. He also thought Blazers were loud. He said he won't shoot Blazers because of the noise.
He shoots his bucks at 80-100 yards
So the question is what fletching do I go with? Flex fletch...vanetec?
I'm think low profile maybe 4 fletch?
I've done just about everything I could think of to reduce the sound of my bow while hunting Axis deer in Hawaii. I've watched many deer jump the string between 25 and 60 yards and have great video of deer attempting to jump the string even closer. In my opinion, if they're less than 20 yards they just don't have enough time to get it done; explosive zone or not.
Axis deer in Hawaii are hunted 365 days a year. Rifles, bows, and everything in between. I've hunted coues (only once but successfully) and axis deer are every bit as jumpy. I have definitely witnessed them freak out because of natural noises such as birds and other game and at times for no reason at all.
I'm very interested in this vane noise topic but...if you can't get your bow quiet enough (completely silent) I don't think it will matter too much. I have to admit I have seen a few deer that appeared to hear my arrow coming vs. the sound of my bow but that would be hard to prove.
"So if the bow noise which for the most part gets there first"
Guys, the bow string POP noise does not get there first. The speed of sound is the same for both bowstring and arrow, and since the broadhead/arrow is in front of the bowstring, it's noise gets there first. Remember, as soon as you release the arrow, both arrow and bowstring start moving and making noise, and the arrow is in front of the bowstring.
The difference is the arrow makes little noise as compared to the string pop.
"The release is a metallic sound which is very alarming to game."
If your mechanical release is making enough noise that you can hear it, it is time for you to get a different release or a new release.
Tony, I am not sure that I was clear. My point was that the .0027 sec difference was between the bow/release noise and the initial arrow noise is not significant. Looking at a 60 yards shot and using your numbers from above which I appreciate you providing, after the arrow has traveled 20 yards, .2143 sec. later the deer has received the noise from the bow/release and initial arrow noise and has either moved or not moved. When the deer has not moved it is still receiving noise from the arrow which is after it has received the bow/release noise. The arrow noise now is louder than the first arrow noise because it is now closer. Assuming that the arrow has not lost much speed the deer has 2 X .1598 sec. to move. After the arrow has traveled 40 yards the arrow noise is even louder and the deer still has enough time to react if it chooses to move in response to the arrow noise. Therefore IMO it is possible that the arrow noise could cause a deer to move especially at longer distances. The bow/release noise may have put the deer on higher alert if it did not cause the deer to move. I think that we are saying the same thing.
"I think that we are saying the same thing. "
I agree, we are on the same page.
I have had deer duck the string when their head was behind a tree trunk. Vision may play a part, but is not necessary.
Deer are used to getting out of the way of falling limbs in forest regions, which may be another reason they are always wired. If you have ever been around to hear a big tree limb crack and fall to the ground, you know what I mean.
I have also had deer jump the string, then feed back to me and give me a second chance. Aim low is all I got to say.
This is a pretty good video of different vanes being shot at 40yds. You can definitely hear the bow at the shot then the arrow.
you know where I stand buddy. They are fast. You can have one situation at 18 yards and deer doesn't move. Another at 22 and he explodes. It comes down to shot timing from what I saw. One deer was occupied sniffing a doe and had his mind on her. The other was on full alert and taking a step only to take another backwards. Hard to say it is one thing or the other. I did discuss this with a buddy who shoots 4" vanes and says they are quieter too. But I'm deaf so I don't notice any difference :-)
THANK YOU Bowboy, proves the point, no matter what type arrow or fancy formula they try to come up with, arrows don't travel the speed of sound, and bow noise causes deer reaction... Again - "Its just common sense"
Zbone- stand down range and listen to someone shooting a 290 fps arrow with Blazers on it. See if they are loud to your ears?
Gave up listing to arrows in flight a long time ago... I shoot the big Snuffer 160+ grain "Biscuit Cutters", with big 5-1/2" high back feathers so I imagine your Blazers are quieter...8^) but the point being, it doesn't really matter because the sound of the bow is first heard...
Some people refer to those hissing big Snuffers as the hiss of death...8^)
Yea I hear ya. I don't think it makes a difference to majority of animals.
But wonder if it does for coues deer. I watch them and they will jump when birds fly by them.
Just curious.
But yea your right they hear the bow more than the arrow hiss.
I quit shooting AA because they were way too loud. We actually used a decibel reader down range to measure the noise. Its really easy to hear indoors. Blazers were in the middle of the test results. A soft low profile 4 in vane was the quietest, but also tore easily and they was loud again. You could shoot it indoors and never hear it until the thump happened. The helical twist that increases drag also increases noise in flight. I tried to go quieter than blazer but never found one sturdy enough. Lower profile and straighter vanes will be quieter. The ribbed AA vanes sound like a jet engine.
Ermine - Good luck with your grey ghost endeavors...
Although hunted AZ a couple times and seen a few Coues while hunting Javes and small game, never really hunted Coues but always wanted too from the writings of Jack O'Conner, but I'm gonna get out there and hunt those critters one of these days...8^)
Justin, have you checked into the decibel meter phone apps yet? I didn't see what they cost but most of these apps are pretty cheap. Look like a great tool to check what you want. Lay your phone on a small table or something down range behind a block of wood, a chunk of 4x4, etc justin case... heheheheh... A quick search turned up this one for example that seems to have good reviews for. It's a droid app but lots of iphone apps too.
Gather as many different arrow configurations and shoot over it. I'd use a field point for a control so the only difference would be fletching, might test broadheads later after settling on the fletching.
oops... helps to actually add the link to what yur talking aboot....
Flex Fletch silent knights are awesome
TD- I actually have one on my phone. I got it to test bow silencers and sound. It works. I haven't tried it with vanes yet. Might have to try thou.
TD- I actually have one on my phone. I got it to test bow silencers and sound. It works. I haven't tried it with vanes yet. Might have to try thou.
I've been using apps to measure bow noise (and quads and UTV muffler effectiveness) for two years. I recommend the SPLnFFT sound app. I get very good repeatable data and found the app measured dB consistently with our several thousand dollar sound meter at work. It cost about $5 when I got it for the iPhone.
Thanks Kurt that's the one I got!
If vane noise is a problem try Flexfletch Silent Knight 3" cross bow vanes. You cannot hear them in flight.
Let us know how the testing goes!
My hearing is bad, but I do like those Silent Knight 3" vanes. And again.... the name is pretty quiet!
They are stiff though. I clean the bases with acetone or lacquer thinner and a 320 wet/dry sandpaper. They stay on pretty well then. They're so stiff.... well, you won't find your arrow too far away on the other side of the animal....
This is my "Bucket of Fun". When I can no longer savage an arrow that was used for hunting it goes it this bucket.
Guess I've been very fortunate to have killed a lot of "deaf" animals with Blazers!!
"Guess I've been very fortunate to have killed a lot of "deaf" animals with Blazers!!"
How many coues from outside of a blind?
I forget.... who was it that gave me that lil tip about cleaning bases with the wet/dry sandpaper????
=D
Matt,
Please enlighten me regarding coues deer hearing and hunting them from blinds. I have wanted to hunt them, but never have. Willing to learn all I can about the animal in the event I do hunt the animal.
Is it possible to kill a coues deer using a blazer vane?
Thanks
I'll leave it to those who have shot at coues with blazer-equipped arrows to answer your question. I can't recall whether the arrows I've killed them with had Blazers or not, but I wouldn't be adding anything to the conversation by commenting without any relevant experience. Good luck.
I'll add to the coues convo that a blind is no diff vs a stand or on the ground with no blind IMO which is limited to about 10 days hunting coues and 5 encounters. ... I've heard a blind will help keep the bow noise contained but I say no way... Like I said in my thread on day 1 of my coues hunt this year I shot at a mature buck 20 yards away and he had no clue I was about to unleash an arrow at him. At the shot he heard my bow (which is very quiet shooting a heavy 515 gr arrow) he ducked it to leave a scar on the top of his back. For an animal who is not on to me who can duck 7-10" within milliseconds from the bow noise 20 yards away by the time the arrow arrives (260's fps) is ridiculously fast and by nature on edge of expecting danger...Crazy coues deer! Never had any other animal react as fast from a bow or arrow noise.
And note, I shot aae max hunters this last hunt which to me sound as loud as Blazers to me ... I'm gonna try the aae stealth vanes for experment. Not saying I think it was my vane noise he caught on to but just experimenting. I Deff think he ducked do to my bow noise but maybe I'm wrong.
This is an extremely interesting topic but one that would be hard to prove one way or the other. It's in our best interest as archery hunters to make our gear as quiet as possible but quiet still makes a noise. I'd be willing to bet any animal that hears your arrow in flight also heard your bow; and heard both before the arrow arrived.
I certainly don't have as much experience in Coues' deer country as some but to say they can't be killed with Blazer vanes outside a blind is silly. I'm certainly glad my 2012 buck didn't get the memo.
"I certainly don't have as much experience in Coues' deer country as some but to say they can't be killed with Blazer vanes outside a blind is silly."
Who said that?
Apparently no one Matt, just adding first hand experience.
Since I have shot Blazer vanes I have killed 3 nice Coues deer bucks and had one jump the string that I never touched. I shoot modest arrow speeds around 270 fps with 375 grain arrows and last December a slower (never chronographed) 475 gr arrow left over from brown bear hunting that I shot the buck with at 30 yards. Both arrow weights and and accompanying velocity worked but Coues are jumpy, quick little buggers! The only thing that I have seen that are as bad at getting out of the way were black bucks in Texas the one time I hunted them.
I think the point raised above that trying to make our gear as quiet as possible when hunting jumpy animals is a worthy goal. I've had an unalerted coues move enough at 20 yards to turn a good shot into a bad hit and a long bloodtail, and I had another at 40 yards that I swear heard the shot, looked up, either saw me or heard the arrow, dropped, and got hit as it was springing back up to run. I've also watched them take an arrow without so much as flinching, but all in all I think quieter is better.
"The noise of the arrow/vanes grows in volume over distance, and arrives at the deers ears prior to the string pop."
That is simply not correct.
ANY and ALL broadhead turbulence (noise) will ALL be behind the string slap turbulence after the first 30 in of flight!!
String "slap" is far more violent and although 30 inches behind the broadhead sound (only for the time it takes the arrow to move it's length))has the magnitude to stimulate the ear wheras the vane/broadhead will not until it gets closer thus the string slap noise first intiated has long passed broadhead /vane noise AT EVERY GIVEN POINT AS IT CLOSES ON TARGET.
To draw a picture....Let's take small stone and a large stone and toss them from a boat.Let the small stone hit first and see which of the "waves" make it to the beach first.
Now start moving toward the beach dropping small stones the closer you get and eventually they will have enough magnitude as the distance closes.....unfortunately it's a mootpoint by then as the earliest and largest magnitude wave( largest stone) has already hit the beach.
Every year someone runs a tangent with this erroneous theory that the broadhead/vanes are what a deer hears first.....
Quieten your bow and shoot whatever broadhead/vane/feather combination you want.Also consider that Coues inhabit rocky country which COULD further give acoustic amplification to your string slap
I've huntedd Coues four times and never at any time thought they were spookier than Mississippi deer.They were string jumpers for sure but not as much as their southern brethren imo
This Coues didn't drop ... Good thing I aimed for where I did.
"If you're shooting a vented BH, that's more likely the source." X2
I think many of us can agree.....
if you don't think the sound of your setup matters....you haven't hunted these spooky critters.
Axis deer and Coues are the worst in that regard, IMO...crazy spooky.....its worth making your setups sound part of your bowhunting equation.
A 40yd Axis divided by a compound shooting 280fps+ the Axis buck is 10yds away by the time the arrow gets there= total fail!
I've had the pleasure of chasing Axis deer on Hawaii over the past 4 years. They are legally hunted here 365 days/year and are the most jumpy animal I've ever hunted, to include Coues' deer.
I shot this little buck, my first, in October 2012. I aimed for his heart at 40 yards and hit him in the back of the head as he ducked and turned to run. I've had several similar experiences since but...they don't always move.
I've seen deer move 10 yards from where they were standing and no guessing where to aim would help in that scenario.
Aiming for the heart has generally produced a vitals hit or complete miss from my experiences.
Well, I'm with Genesis on this and the math seems to support the idea that the deer jumped the bow string too.
Your arrow travels at maybe 260/280fps and sound travels approximately at 1125.33fps. But the arrow is displaying a dopplers effect. And deer can only drop 32fps?.
Only variables I can think of is possibly the deer arched its back and the distance was misjudged?
Genesis thanks for explaining the hearing process of an animal. Also for pointing out the importance of setting up a quiet shooting bow. Animals will always hear the sound of a bow before they will an arrow.
As stated earlier I've never hunted a coues deer but I have successfully hunted to pretty "jumpy" animals along the way. Impalas are pretty quick. So are springboks. By far, the "jumpiest" I have ever seen is a duiker. These animals walk around in a state of paranoid schizophrenia. They know their next step could be their last before be attached and consumed by a predator. They are highly reactive to any sound or movement.
Yes, I can see where arching their back would change the POI intended. Sometimes strange things happen when an arrow encounters moving muscle as well.
Last year I heart shot a muley at 50yds and the Arrow was stuck in a tree 6" above ground. I was only slightly elevated at about one foot and the tree was only 25 inches behind the deer.
That had me scratching my head as the deer didn't move until the arrow struck him.
I'm not sure if this will help solve the exact rate of drop for a deer but below is a screenshot from a video I shot of an Axis spike in October. The shot was only 23 yards and the white streak you see in front of the tree is my arrow headed towards the buck. I'll attach a follow-up picture.
You can see my white fletching (Blazers x3) about 5" behind the armpit. Even at 23 yards this young buck was able to at least begin moving out of the way.
Didn't realize that about Axis.Thanks for bringing it up!
Some good discussion going on.
Big hurt- I like your aiming strategy. I think had I done that I would have got one.
On another note. I'm gonna try out the AAE Max stealth vanes. I've heard from a bunch of guys who have said that they are absolutely much quieter!
Axis are wired up string jumpers, make blacktails and mule deer look like they are on prozac. As Weekender said, here in HI they are hunted 365 days a year. I couldn't say they were like coues as I've never hunted them, hope to change that someday. But I've heard the comparison before from those who have. Love to try spot and stalk coues if the conditions were right. Guessing like axis... conditions are everything on a stalk....
Genesis, I would not be surprised if few on the mainland viewed them that way.... likely the sound of the feeders covers up a good deal of noise..... =D
I'm a fan of the 3" Norway Fusion vanes myself. I was one of those people back in the day having adhesion issues with blazers.
They are quieter than blazes IMO
Anyone do some noise testing yet?? Justin?? Any findings??
i just shot some aae stealth max vanes, which I do not hear any noise from at all compared to the hissing noise I hear from the max hunters and blazers. gonna try them out for sure.
I tried the AAE max stealth. They are very quiet and fletch up nicely. I like the profile as well! Got to do more testing, but I Think these might be the vanes I use this year!
Geez, you guys are going to create some unwanted additional work and cost for me...
Here's a good video of the difference in sound from Maxhunters & Stealth vanes. I'm going with stealth vanes on my arrows.
Great vanes, but check out the Flex Fletch SK 300s before you settle on something...
Glad those stealth vanes are doing good for you Justin!
Elk man- yes the flex fletch are awesome. I've shot them for years. I am trying these out thou. Cheaper and less prep required.
"Bullwinkle- have you hunted coues? In the country I'm in 50 yards is about as close as its gonna get. Wide open country. Loose rock. You can't walk with out loose rock grinding on rock. It looks flat and grassy but it's really rocky as all get out."
Amen! Chuck Adams occasionally writes about uninformed archers chastising him for "long" shots on Coues. He quickly shuts them down by asking how many Coues they've bagged. :)
I'm also gonna try some Blazer X2 vanes.
One thing I don't like about the max stealth is the weight. The vanes I have weigh 8 and 10 grains!! Pretty heavy per vane
Ermine...have you noticed any different POI with the vanes?
Oh yea. These trophy taker stealth vanes added a lot of weight to the arrow. They weigh 26 grains total vs 16-18
I'm now trying a 4 fletch blazer x2 vane
Good stuff, curious to see how it comes out
Ermine, did 10 additional grains really change your point of impact? Maybe additional drag compared to your old vanes?
Weekender- no it didn't really change the point of impact. However from a FOC stand point lighter in the back is better.
Same impact. I just felt like the groups were a little bigger more opened up...compared to blazers
What do you think of the Vanetec? I liked them but I thought they were a bit much on the stiffness, and a pain to fletch helical with.
These may have been mentioned already, but has anybody used vanetec swift 2.25? How do they do with fixed heads? Considering fletching some up and trying against my blazers and vanetec hp
The two pink arrows on the right are Vanetec swifts 2.25 fletch 4 fletch.
Elkman- I like the Vanetec. However I feel like they are fragile. The rip if they go into a target. They fletch up real nice for me. Nice helical. I like the stiffness. They just aren't tough.
So far they don't seem to control my fixed blades enough. So might not be using the Vanetecs. They fly really well with field points
The two pink arrows on the right are Vanetec swifts 2.25 fletch 4 fletch.
Elkman- I like the Vanetec. However I feel like they are fragile. The rip if they go into a target. They fletch up real nice for me. Nice helical. I like the stiffness. They just aren't tough.
So far they don't seem to control my fixed blades enough. So might not be using the Vanetecs. They fly really well with field points
Ermine...How's the blazerX2 working for you? Was thinking of giving them a try myself.
Trohpy8- they are pretty cool. They are slightly smaller size than regular Blazers so they feel very stiff. They seem to be flat shooting, but not grouping as tight as regular Blazers. I'm still trying and experimenting with them thou.
After using Blazers for years, decided to give the Max Stealths a try. The only complaint I've had with Blazers is that the high profile created some cable contact unless I rotated the nock just so and trimmed a bit off that vane. Shouldn't have that problem with the lower profile Stealths. Anxious to fletch up a few next week and see how my BH's fly. Like Ermine, I was surprised that the Stealths weigh 10gr, since they're listed as 7 1/2gr, but I'm not concerned about a few grains one way or the other.
Regarding the Blazer X2's, Bohning says they aren't recommended for fixed blade BH's, which may explain why you're groups aren't as tight, although 4 fletch should help to some degree. One other thought. If you moved away from Blazers because of noise, I would think a stiffer vane would create more turbulence (noise), not less.
Wyo- yea my thoughts were the stiffer vanes are quieter because they don't have the flap.
Flex fletch are very stiff and they are very quiet in my experience.
I like the max stealth. I like the profile. I need to shoot them more to see if they will shoot.
Ermine, Know this thread is old but I had to register and post. Been searching on the web interested in this topic lately... I've had the SAME problem with my new twister vanes. I switched to them last year and they have the same high profile as blazers, but with these groves in them to "grip air better"?? Idk, but anyways I've been bowhunting spot and stalk for 28 years, get my muley or whitetail buck almost every year... until last year when I switched. I've now missed 15 bucks in a row and they all did the exact same trick you speak of. These are almost always 50-70 yard shots and most times breezy conditions. You can barely hear the bow at that distance (halon 32), but you have maybe 2 seconds to react to the hissing noise through the air. I didn't try standing downrange until my buddy said "boy I can really hear your arrow." I thought I was crazy after the first 4 or 5 misses, but I'm convinced now. I'm not dumb and I know when I mess up a shot.. I can honestly say these deer are moving out of the way, sometimes completely out of the picture when at longer distances. ..... Anyways, I switched to 3 inch fusion vanes, wow what a difference when standing downrange. Probably half as loud and no longer a high pitch hiss. I'm never touching blazers or twisters after this. Deer jump the string I get it, but not in windy conditions at 60yrds. NEVER had them do this until those vanes... Anywho, thought you might find this interesting. Hope this past year was better for you!
I know its an old thread. But, a deer reacting to noise at close range is reacting to the bow most likely. However, at ranges of 35-40 yards or more, its that screaming missile coming at them that they react to. Not the bow. Today's bows are so quiet downrange, you really can't even hear them before the arrow sound over comes the string noise. Test for yourself if you doubt it. Fletching and broadhead noise is extremely important for guys taking longer shots, to minimize. Its a game changer. God Bless men
I was using flex fletch for a while but swtched to vanetc swift vanes 2.88. I find them very quiet and durable, they don't seem to wrinkle or tear when I shoot through a target. I have only read a few of the posts here. If this has been addressed already, I apologize.
For those that may think blazer vanes are not loud... Try standing down range (behind cover of course) while your buddy takes a few shots with a field tip.. I've done this and was shocked at how loud it was, sounded like a freight train coming at me.. I switched to the bohning heat vane, seems to be a lot quieter with lower profile
Just started shooting 4 inch offset feathers through my whisker biscuit and seem to be more accurate at 30yds plus quiet . Field points and stingers are dead on after paper tune . I feel confident after giving up my Limbdriver just to KISS. Might try 3inch feather or Bohning Heat vane next.
Have always shot 4" offset vanes....never saw a need to change. One point I will make on "sound"....have some one do a super slow mo of your bow with all your equipment on it when yo are taking a shot.....it will open your eyes to the amount of shock and movement going on in your equipment.
I have seen a lot of game dodge the arrow in the last 40 years in the outfitting business, mule deer blk tail coues, elk , antelope wild boar and in my opinion its always caused by the bow or bowstring material. Now there are several brands of bows that are extremely loud due to the cam design, the halo string serving is much louder than other brands. I always advise hunters to try cat wisker string silencers that changes the tone of the string and stops the loud bark of hard cams. any who tries this will see a complete stop of string jumping.
Glad this got brought back up. Good thread.
