Contributors to this thread:
Does anyone have any photos or stories to share about these little desert warriors? Or even better some video? Recipes? Tips in handling? Tactics? Or maybe just some cool desert tidbits or photography!
They are on my bucket list too.
no, but there are some videos on the net. I too want to hunt these stink pigs
My First Javelina
It really started in 1998. I had been back in traditional archery a few years and was looking for a new longbow. Searching on the internet I ran across Jeff Massie in Shiner Texas. I liked the looks of his Longhorns and after talking to a few people ordered one. It was 64”, 55lbs at 28”. It had a cocobolo handle with Bamboo lams under clear glass. I received the bow and it shot as good as it looked. After I received the bow I stayed in touch with Jeff and he suggested I come down and hunt pigs and javvies with him. He was running pig and javvie hunts on the Cadena ranch near Benavides. Well, I wasn’t too sure of that as it was a long ways from Virginia to Texas. He finally convinced me and I talked my brother, Lewis, into going. We went down in January of 2000. We didn’t have much luck that year, but both of us took an eating size pig.
We had such a good time that we decided to go back the next year. This time we convinced my brother’s brother-in-law, Jesse, to go. We got down there the 3rd week in January on Sunday afternoon. It was 80 degrees and sunny. When we got up Monday morning it was in the 40’s and misting rain. It stayed that way through the week until Friday when it was in the high 70’s and sunny. We hadn’t had much luck, Jesse and Lewis had each taken a nice pig and a javvie. I had taken an eating size pig and a few rabbits.
On Friday morning I set up in a location called Canopy Road. I hand corned a stretch of the road and settled back to wait. After about half an hour I saw some javvies down near the end of the road. I faded back into the brush and stalked up on the javvie. When I finally got into shooting range, only one of the javvies was still on the road. It was a nice boar about 35lbs. He was quartering slightly away from me with his left side toward me at about 15 yards. I picked a spot and came to anchor and released the string on the first javvie I had ever shot at. The hit looked a bit too far forward for the angle he was at, probably only one lung. I watched him run into a mesquite thicket and settled down to wait a half-hour or so before I started to track.
While I was waiting, another Javvie, about 25 lbs wandered back onto the road. I slowly got to my feet and started a stalk. I stalked to about 20 yards. He started to get fidgety so I decided to shoot. I picked a spot, came to anchor and released the string. I watched as the arrow zipped through him in what looked like a perfect double lung hit. He darted toward the nastiest patch of cactus and mesquite on the ranch. He crashed just outside the thicket and I had my first javvie.
It was now time to track the first javvie. I picked up some good blood and followed it into the mesquite. I followed about 25 yards and had to crawl under some low hanging limbs. I crawled about 10 yards and I heard the javvie popping his teeth. I looked to my left and he was about 10 yards from me facing me. He looked pretty sick, but still very much alive. The overhanging limbs were so low that I couldn’t get off my hands and knees. It looked like a couple yards ahead I could get to my knees so I slowly crawled ahead. I got up on my knees and got ready to shoot. The limbs were too low for me to hold my bow upright so I shot with the bow almost horizontal. He was facing me but I could see his right shoulder. I picked a spot, drew, and released. The arrow sliced into him and it looked like I got one lung. He ran 5 or 6 yards and collapsed. I waited a few minutes and he didn’t move so I crawled up to him. He was dead.
This really hooked me on hunting pigs and javvie in Texas and I’ve been making an annual trip to south Texas ever since.
I've wanted to hunt them since the 70s when I first read about them,,,,no idea why,,,,got one in 2012 while hunting AZ,,,,,and I will definitely do it again,,,
attaching photo (I hope),,,
Just took my wife on a hunt this last weekend. Hunt is sponsored by the AZ Game and Fish and CouesWhitetail.com and Safari Club and others and is for women only. They match each woman up with a mentor(experienced) hunter in a HAM hunt near Tucson AZ. HAM is Handgun. Archery, Muzzleloader. Very few pigs were seen, and only one was taken. Hot weather caused them to seek shade early and as this is primarily a spot and stalk type hunt they were in the shade early. She did see one on the way into the camp area. Since she spotted about 50 deer in her 4 day hunt we are going back this fall for deer. Just need to get her 40 yd. pin set up.
She is also going to try and do the Javi hunt next year with the womans only group.
This was her first big game hunt and she had a blast.
I read 5 books about javelina, talked with people on Bowsite who had bowhunted them and watched videos on Youtube about bowhunting javelina videos before I went in January 2016.
I hunted with Rob Kiebler with Fair Chase Limited in Texas. I listen to him and my guide John Boles. They are javelina hunting experts.
A culmination of all of this, I believe greatly lead to my success.
Javelinas are very unusual animals and they are a blast to bowhunt. I want to go again.
I hope to add to this thread in a couple of weeks. Going on my first hog/javi hunt in Tx.
Here's a tip for when you kill one. Be extra careful while skinning. Do not let hair touch meat, do not touch meat with hand that has touched hair, same with knife. The musk that comes from the gland on the back is very strong. Not getting it on meat really makes a difference at the dinner table.The gland will come off with the hide while skinning. Good luck on your adventure.
My only javalena experience was last year. I hunted Arizona for the 1st time. I got on a high point and spotted a group of javalena. I closed the distance very quick and got within range. They were feeding totally unaware of my presence. I decided to let them get as close as possible before I shot. At one point they were 15 yards.
The biggest of the group was broadside at 30. I shot and the hit looked perfect. He ran over a hill and I picked up the blood trail. Very good blood trail I might add. I followed blood trail to a small hole in the rocks and the boar was inside alive and growling and huffing. I tried getting him to come out but wasn't working. I could only see his mouth and because of how low it was to the ground had to draw my bow Geronimo style (horizontal) and shot the boar right in the face thru the choppers! Instant dead.
The shot was perfect. I was using an expandable and don't know if that what was the deal was or if they are just super tough animals.
I skinned it and quartered it like I do all my animals! It was very good meat!
Javalena are fun to hunt. In my opinion fun but pretty easy to kill. Not too challenging. But a unique critter
Javelina's are made for stalking and are a great addition to your trophy room. I shot this one down in Old Mexico. The Mexicans seems to enjoy eating them.
I agree with Ermine. They aren't very challenging, but worthy of a stalk or two. Come to think of it, the whitetails in Mexico weren't the smartest animals either. There's almost zero hunting pressure down there.
This one was 5 yards away! of course I had already shot one and my buddy had walked the other direction complaining that he never sees them, lol
I hunted the stinky little things in Hebronville Texas, near Laredo.
When I shot mine I made a mistake and grabbed it by its back. Right where the scent glands were.
Was a lot of fun and would recommend it to anyone!!
Try this.... Ed F
You sure about that link?
I've killed 9 Javelina's with the bow over the years. they are a lot of fun to hunt and even more fun to watch. Use a mouth wounded rabbit call and get ready for some fast action!
As others have said they are not really that challenging however IMO they are the best spot and stalk critters to start new young bow hunters out on. I started my son out that way, he has killed 2, and my grandson will be doing it next year.
The one on the rock is mine and the other one is my sons. We killed these out of the same herd as I mimicked their wolf grunts less than 5 minutes apart.
For the challenged.... Ed F
I resemble that remark, Ed!
Looks like another reason to look into getting some snake boots!
Hope to give the calling a try in a couple of weeks.
Fun stuff huh Ed?
Thats what Im talking about!
Want to laugh so hard you cry? Do that with a first time kid and watch him loose a couple arrows and nearly crap his pants! LOL
One of my favorite animals to hunt with a bow! Only problem is that mine always run for the nearest culvert or cave to die in! This one crawled in from the other side through a real tight, cactus infested space, so I had to go grab a ladder and pull him out the other end. Never boring with javelina!
We went three for four this year (the other guy missed). No caves or culverts to hide in!
I make chorizo with mine. This is the first year I did it myself and it turned out great. Had 15# of javelina, mixed it with 15# of pork roast from last summer's hog, threw it all in the grinder and mixed in the A.C. Legg Chorizo Sausage mix. Perfect for breakfast burritos! Not quite as spicy as my previous game processor (WGP in Tucson) made it, but good enough. All this nonsense about javelina not tasting good is just hogwash. Our family loves it! And you can't find a more fun animal to hunt!
Another one from a few years ago. It was a good year--I shot two pigs (different units) and a desert muley in a 36-hour time frame!
My then 12yo son's first pig. Best animal around to get kids excited about bow hunting.
Ermine- One thing to remember on these little guys is that their vitals are low and forward. I agree the meat is very under rated. Hunting Dad brings up a very important tip in handling. Be SURE you use one set of gloves to skin being careful to keep hair from touching meat, and then use a new set for handling the meat itself. An average Cactus Bounder will fit into four 1 gallon ziplock bags. Three for the boned meat, and one for the skull, all easily slipped into almost any day pack and leaving the rest for nature to consume. Love the culvert photo Bowman! Good stuff guys!
Looks like I'm going to have to get a bigger daypack!!!
My buddy Steve's prickle pig...
The Wife's Cactus warrior...
Cactus bounder, Prickle pig, Cactus warrior.....I am getting a chuckle out of the nicknames for this critter.....
And here's my awesome little desert dweller... ;-)
Mine from earlier this month. Love the beautiful desert habitat they occupy!
I really love that photo! Is that rooting in the back ground from him?
Any reasonable priced places in Tx. for Archery in April, May.
Never seemed to get any good field pics of javelin.
That's a pretty cool mount!
Those hunts look like a lot of fun. Any suggestions on outfits to do a free range hunt? Maybe in combination with a Coues?
I would do AZ. The Texas "hunting" is not a true representation of the Javelina. You can do it DIY very easily, and all the areas around Tuscon are very good populations...
I would like to do an Arizona javelina hunt someday. Actually west Texas has some good spot and stalk hunting. I usually hunt south Texas, which is not very conducive to spot and stalk, but I have had some success spot and stalk hunting on the prickly pear flats. I like to corn the roads and wait for the javelin to come to the road, then I stalk them. One of the reasons I like south Texas is because of the ease of combining hogs with the javelina.
Great pics, stories and thread!!!
Great stuff guys! That double pedestal mount right there is the best open mouth javelina mount I've seen. I generally really prefer the closed mouth mounts I've seen.
Great looking mount Casey!
What is this comment about, "The Texas "hunting" is not a true representation of the Javelina" ?
My research indicated that the javelina or collared peccary ,(family Tayassuidae; suborder Suina) is found in the United States in the states of Texas, New Mexico and Arizona.
That is rooting. When I spotted the group they had their heads buried deep into the side of a barrel cactus as they devoured it.
Buffalo- Was just referring to how easy they are to "kill" when you are baiting them. Not a fair representation of how they are to actually have to find, and "HUNT" them on public land...
Understand what you are saying and agree.
My first Javi.
4 of them came in & I shot the biggest one. I hit him in the spine & he went down & went to snarling & raising cain. The other ones jumped all over him & then ran out into the brush. I called them back in 6 different times with my varmint call similar to what was on the video that Ed F. posted!
What an absolute blast! Just wished that I had videoed it!
Where do we go that is reasonably priced? Thoughts!
Arizona tags are around $225 if I'm remembering right. The desert is free as long as you have a tent, but there are plenty of Motels on the outskirts of Tuscon that are reasonable.
Here are a couple of Javelina I harvested.The first one was taken in January 2016. It weighed 63 pounds field dressed (sow). The second I harvested in the 2016 Ham hunt and it weighed 50 pounds field dressed.(Boar)
The above photo is the 50 #. This is the 63 #
Wow! I see NOTHING in the back ground? No cactus? No Rock? What the hell were they doing out there? What were they eating?
ELKMAN...... AZ has some ag land and that's what it looks like to me. I've seen javelina feeding in corn fields there.
HEAD DOCTOR that 63# boar is a real beast. What is the skull measurement on that animal
What is the skull measurement on the 53# sow? Very large size for a sow.
Really nice animals. Congrats !!
The 63# is a sow and the 50# is a boar. Have not measured the skulls yet but I have some skulls in the Bowhunting in Arizona record book that were taken with a Vertical bow when I could shoot one that score 14.10 14.11 and 14.12 inches. These should score in the mid 14's. The sows are generally heavier than the boars. They don't have to keep up with 10 girl friends like the boar does. They mate all year long.
Very cool. How did you get close in that stuff?
I killed one back in 2005 in south Texas. Probably one of the most fun spot and stalk hunts there is. Fun critters.
HD, is that a 100 gr Vortex head in that top picture? I have a picture taken by Dennis Ward of myself with a javelina that looks very similar!
LOL ... for some reason it loaded the wrong image from my computer ... sorry guys.
ELKMAN, WHERE THE ANIMAL IS KILLED IS NOT ALWAYS WHERE THE PICTURE IS TAKEN. I don't always tell people where I am hunting...but when I do, I am usually lieing. BOWNBIRDHNTR. Yes that is a 100 grain Vortex. Dennis Ward...I know him very well. I see him in the mirror everyday. Attached is a picture of my grand daughter's 65# javelina.
Here is what it is all about! Landon Ward first big game kill. A 58# javelina. I have a full mount of the heaviest javelina I have ever seen.It was an archery kill about 15 years ago. It was weighed on a certified scale at a meat packing plant. The skull was I believe 14.5 inches.
Those are some awesome Javies! Congrats! BTW: I didn't ask WHERE you hunt, just asked HOW you got close in that terrain. A more congenial answer might sound something like this: Photos weren't necessarily taken at the sight of the kill. Again tell the kids congratulations!
Most of the Big Javelina we kill, we have them patterned and set up on them. Its nearly impossible to stalk the flat land pigs in the open terrain.
How is it nearly impossible to stalk flat land pigs? Bowhunters can effectively stalk flatland pronghorns [not with great success, but with some very limited success]. The very rare/limited success on flat land pronghorns is exponentially more difficult than stalking javelina in the flat lands. For that reason, I cannot understand how stalking javies could be "nearly impossible" regardless of terrain? In my experience, the most difficult part of javelina hunting is finding them. Once found, the stalk has always been less challenging. For that reason, hunting javies in open country would seem easier to me than looking for them in the dense underbrush where I seem to find them.
I'm sure both have their challenges and rewards. Post some Pork Pics!
I know a bit about spotting and stalking i've harvested 6 antelope with my bow all spot and stalk. as for these Javies they are not your common javie, they are very spooky, see better than normal javies and are pressured 365 days a year by farmers and ranchers.
Most of the time these Javs are nocturnal, due to the pressure. They are more visible during the early morning and late late evening but during the colder months of January and Feruary, when the night time temperatures are in the teens, they feed when the sun is out. They don't have hair they have bristles.
Most of the time ALL Javies are nocturnal. They must be eating the farmers carrots if they see better then your average pigs:)
Congrats on the spot and stalk pronghorns! I truly believe that is one of the more difficult feats in bowhunting. I've not yet been successful in killing a pronghorn with my bown by spot/stalk. I don't mean to sound argumentative. I hunt public land javies that get a ton of pressure also. In my experience, the most difficult part of the hunt is locating the javelina. They can be super hard to find for sure. Once I find them though, a well planned stalk seems to be noticeably easier than that of other North American game. Again, that's just my experience hunting javies in SW New Mexico.
Agreed they are definitely harder to find than to actually kill, but boy they can be hard to find some years, and near impossible in lower population areas that you have no experience in... Post some New Mexico piggy pics!
Arctichill Thank you , I really enjoy Antelope hunting , but crap getting a tag in Az and New mexico is tuff these days, I really don't find locating Javies difficult at all. Food Cover Water = pigs. Azarchery I would strongly disagree about pigs being nocturnal, on cold nights they stay bedded and move just about all day only napping occasionally. when hunters cant find them its normally because they are in thick brush, only coming into open areas in the late evening.
On cold nights, yes they will bed down. But they are nocturnal most of the time. Especially when the temps warm up.
I would have to agree with AZarcher as far as them being primarily nocturnal as a species, and I will agree with WardsOutfitter that they are very easily located on private land, in agricultural wide open fields with no cover... LOL!
Elkman seriously 99% of the javelina we and clients harvest are on public grounds, I guess i just don't have a hard time locating them because i'm better than you at it ? LOL
Sorry Steve: That was a Type-o. That was directed towards people hunting them in that agricultural private ground. (And I have no doubt you are the greatest of all time...) LMAO!
LMAO.. Yes we can laugh about this, were both adults, sometimes these threads catch me in a bad mood :)
Let's see some desert magic boys!
Anyone going to the Texasshoot-out or Callaghan Ranch for Javelina?
We will be staying here again this year.
I should be chasing javelina right now too, but other things got in the way. But right now I can just walk outside, stand in the snow, close my eyes and pretend I'm in the Tuscon area hills!
Wife's first Javelina from yesterday.....nice boar!
I have never shared this story but I will now on bowsite. I shot a javelina with a qad Exodus broadhead and he went off into the brush. We followed him and this is what I found. He had wrapped his intestine around a small tree/brush and somehow got it tied into a knot, pulled it all the way out and died. Craziest thing I think I have ever seen in the wild. These are very tough animals.
One of my favorite animals to bowhunt!
I’ve hunted Arizona for javelina since 1990. I remember two trips out of almost 30 that didn’t take one. Spotting and then stalking them is the only way to hunt where I do and wouldn’t want it any other way. I think I’ve taken as many calling them back in after the initial bust than otherwise.
Heading early Monday morning to South TX.
Dennis, you make me laugh.....sure was good to see you a couple years ago.
Had a great hunt! Lots of shots and stalks. Had to go to the dark side to score on one. The Javelina were very spooky and the weather all but one day were windy, cloudy and misty. Not helping for a good hunt. This place is very hard to do a recovery, with the thick cactus.
South TX female Cardinal.
Looks more like a Pyrrhuloxia. Definitely in the same family as the cardinals, though.
Most likely the same, Southern Cardinal.
That one like 25 posts above is my buddies^^^. This year was VERY difficult at least where we hunt. We found a group of 3 the first day in one of our main areas where there are usually several herds of 5 or more spread out, we took one out of that herd assuming there was a lot more nearby as usual but never did locate the others there. Then after that we hunted every nook and cranny I know and couldn't find a prickle pig to save our live's. That's with 3 people on high end glass from daylight till dark for 5 days in 3 different large areas that we have located pigs every year for the last decade or more. Finally on the last day I decided it was time to just go rogue and went pounding new washes till I found some semi fresh track and then ran for high ground and started speed glassing. Finally located a nice sounder of 10 or 11 in a huge boulder field on a steep ridge across several canyons. They disappeared and bedded under a huge Cedar almost immediately (8:30 AM) and I know better than going in on bedded pork, or letting them out of my sight till I know what their plans are. We waited for and hour or so and finally they began filtering out and feeding in pattern that showed fairly stationary for at least the near future so we covered the first canyons fast and then slowed to a crawl in the boulder field to get wind correct and not get busted. Then just waited once we were positioned with the wind about 40 yards above and lateral to them as I was near sure they were going to feed back on their original track. Sure enough after some waiting we start hearing crunching and munching just over the little mound in front of us and then they began appearing at anywhere between 10 and 20 yards (limited visibility heavy cover) It took probably 5 minutes for me to ID a boar in the first 3 that were in front of us and he ended up at about 6 yards frontal so I indicated to my buddy it was a boar and he drew back and took the shot. This caught me off guard as he was slightly behind me to my left, and I wasn't thinking he would shoot so quickly on that angle, but with big Rage 2 blade the pig didn't go anywhere, literally went down within 10 yards. (That is the pig 25 posts above^) Then the circus starts I end up at full draw at 8 yards on one, and 16 yards on another with perfect shots but couldn't be 100% sure on either one if they were boars though I was pretty sure on the one at 16. I let down on both and let whole sounder leave, they were moving deliberately but not running. This was very risky move as I have never been in this area and have zero clue what their next move is, but the ground I'm standing on currently is somewhat track-able so I take the risk. I circle to the right running up the mountain hoping to catch them crossing on ridge line. I get there in time but I'm 50 yards from the herd, to far west. I watch them roll over into the the huge densely covered canyon and know I probably just made a huge mistake. I wait an hour to let them calm and get to their rendezvous point to wait for their fallen buddy.(That's what they do) I begin the track and they go waaay farther than I'm expecting and I end up a few canyons over in even thicker cover and I finally spot one under a PaloVerde looking back down the canyon watching back trail. I watch them for awhile to see if they appear somewhat stationary and see if I can get a feel for where the rest of the herd is trending. I circle way out and around to get high for the wind and then I realize they have moved to the spine of the ridge above me and are feeding and calm but covering a little ground slowly headed down the spine. I stalk to within about 28 yards of several feeding but one of them is kind of giving me that I know somethings up vibe and that one is 20 yards (Between the herd and I) The main herd then proceeds to bed right in front of me in the open at 25 yards, but this little piggy won't let his guard down and just stands there for like 20 minutes. I know which pig I'm there to shoot as I had already IDed him when he was leaving the first set up. He was a fairly large darker boar that was easy to identify. He is bedded right in the center of the group right next a huge sow. Finally the guard pig puffs a couple times and the herd gets on its feet immediately. They are coming to investigate, some going left and some going right at between 10 and 15 yards, all trying to get above me for the wind. I know this is about to end dirty so I stay focused my guy looking for a shot opportunity he clears at 14 yards I set the pin and level and send one through. He goes about 12 yards and crashes out.
Awesome hunt falcon
Good job. That ranch is really cool. Had dinner with one of the owners about a month ago
Here's a cool looking blonde one that was taken in AZ and posted on another forum.
Thanks Rob! Good people on the ranch, like Juan and Will.
Hunting on a 6,300 acre private ranch of a friend in South West Texas near Marathon. Killed two (State Limit) this year, both shot at 6 yards, which brings my total to 44 Javelinas. All with Longbow and Recurve. This trip is made in February every year. February of 2019 was our 29th year in a row, not missing a single year.
We are booked for a Javelina hunt at the Callaghan Ranch , in March this year. Our living quarters there.
Wife and I arrowed ours earlier this week.
Nice! How is it? Are they healthy? Is the desert green?
We arrowed ours up higher.....5500-6800’ elevation. Wife’s was in the snow!
I'm leaving in a couple weeks for west Texas and my first ever Javelina hunt. This thread has got me really excited. Hope to have some pictures to add when I get back.
Other than a mount, What do you guys do with them after the hunt? Eat them?
They make incredible Chorizo!
Desert rather green. Was out this morning looking for them. I like making jerky from them. Here is my last one.
Desert rather green. Was out this morning looking for them. I like making jerky from them. Here is my last one.
We make the most amazing sausage with ours. We love it!
They make good euro mounts.
I certainly hope that's not the only reason you're killing them... They make great table fare when handled properly by someone who cares. I believe that Javelina are labeled as "no good" by historically lazy hunters that use it as an excuse to go drink beer, instead of doing the work necessary to let the animal be something that didn't die for little to no reason. We have been hunting and eating them for over 20 years, and I can honestly say it took some learning, and definitely a little extra effort in handling, but the sausage they make is without a doubt some of the best meat we have every year.
Agreed elkman. Everyone that has ever tried my javelina sausage loves it.
So you eat them and through the rest away? In Texas where I hunt most of the meat is donated, by the ranch to a local orphanage. The rest is taken and eaten. So get off your HIGH HORSE!
We don't "through" anything away... Not sure how that works. ;-)
Anybody got any desert photos?
Just got back. I only had a week this year. Went 3 for 3 on the javies--no deer were killed in the making of this week. My other buddies are still there hoping to fill some deer tags. Wish I was still there--it's a whopping 8 degrees here a my office in Anchorage today. This is the first time it has snowed on me down there. Pretty fun place to spend January.
Got mine on the Jan 8. Third day of the hunt. Made the bow, quiver, string, arrows, arm guard and tab. Arizona desert is a different world.
That must be an amazing feeling to take and animal with a bow you actually made with your own two hands. A huge congratulations to you sir! I love the desert.
Just got back a couple days ago My third trip for javis Shot two last year and one this season
We managed to get it done, but this year was VERY tough again. I'm not sure why but the last two seasons have been like hunting ghosts...?
Three of us stalked a group of four and only one remained... it was a fast and tactical maneuver.
Got me a snow pig on a rare white day in SE NM...
Very nice! Good shot. Close?
The cover was so thin I took the shot at 35 yards. Felt pretty exposed.
I got this one last month in Arizona. Please, no funny hair comments... chicks dig it. Ed F
Hair looks great Ed! But thats coming from me, so not much of a complement.....
NMWAPITI! Great pig, great pic! Was he charging? By the looks of your quiver you were lettin' 'em rip!! Love empty quivers.......
Ki-ke, I only carry 3 arrows, but I did fling 2 at him. He was rooting around at the base of mesquites with a couple of his buddies. First shot hit a little back so I sent another that hit right on his shoulder. I actually walked back to the truck to give him a minute to expire. Was putting things away and remembered to grab my empty bow for the hero pic.
Ed, I'll have to try that angle next time. Makes them look a lot bigger :)