Broadhead failure
Equipment
This broadhead was shot from a 55 pound bow on 430 grain arrow. It hit some part of a leg bone on a water buck bull, approx 550 pound animal. Are there any circumstances that this type of damage from shooting any part of animal would be considered acceptable?
Should have put a Rage in that leg bone...that would have dropped him! :^D
Almost looks like a Bear Razorhead...
Damn! I wonder if, as the arrow penetrated, it hit something that caused some sideways force to be imparted at the front of the blade, or if it curled back like that from a straight on hit.
Thats one hell of a failure.
Magnus stinger. By leg bone, I mean up inside the body in the shoulder area.
Did you recover the animal?
While a lot of people love the Stingers, the handful of used heads that friends have shown me (successful kills) have all looked pretty bad (although not as bad as this one).
I like the Magnus folks and use some of their BH, but the aluminum split ferrule with a hole thru it for the set screw isn't as robust as other BH options IMO.
Carl
To some this is a failure. I say if you got the animal it is a success.
As mentioned in "another" thread, that's why I insist on a Trocar style point. Once the thin tip starts to curl and glance the rest will often follow. A three or four blade will obviously have more support and less catastrophic damage. But the tip can still curl and inhibit penetration substantially. Round leg bones are the prime culprit.
But, no, that is not acceptable.
Hopefully you recovered the animal and it's just an educational circumstance.
The animal hasn't been recovered yet, hopefully we recover it tomorrow. At this point, I feel confident that the broadhead curling the way it did stopped penetration enough to keep it from being a lethal shot.
Expected results with that head design.
I assume you hit the leg joint at the shoulder. Most broadheads will be destroyed when hitting that location. That being said....that head looks very bad.
No, that is not acceptable performance. You have just demonstrated why many of us are willing to pay considerably more for certain broadheads. Not all cut on contact broadheads hold up well when they hit a solid object. That's also a pretty light weight arrow for a solid bone hit coming in at 7.8 grains per pound of draw weight.
Wow, that's bad. I don't believe that a heavier arrow would have helped that situation either.
It is a fact that some broadheads will fare better than others in that situation. Most aluminum ferrules would be trashed with impact to heavy bone like that. No matter what kind of broadhead was on that arrow, a hit like that to big bone will almost never result in quick kill. The good thing, if there is one, is that Magnus will replace that broadhead with a new one. The bad thing is the trophy fee that will be paid if the animal is not recovered. Ouch!
100% free replacement on the broadhead though.....js
Hopefully with the Trackers and the dogs, you get your waterbuck and it all ends well. Amazing what they can track. Tough sleep ahead tonight. Good luck in the morning.
Reminds me of previous discussions where guys on here say an expensive broad head is rediculous.
Don't hit them in the leg bone! No head will make it through that on a 500 pound animal!
PS - I have never shot a Magnus head in my life!
But at least it opened! ;-)
No it is not acceptable, I would for sure change type of broadhead you are shooting. since you have the broadhead , how much of the arrow is still attached ? Probably not something you want to here at this point , but VPA solid broadhead is 1 piece machined STEEL . Hope you recover your bull. Forrest
Thanks for the comments on this so far. This was my 12 year old sons broadhead. My broadhead of choice is the Exodus. I had him shooting these based on the reviews of this broadhead for lower weight set ups. The part I really can't believe is that this happened from a 55 pound bow.
Shot placement looked very good initially, until the arrow quit penetrating and fell out. I would have shot the animal in the same place myself. Still can't believe he even hit bone where there arrow hit. There is still hope the animal will be recovered and all will end well. Either way he will have a different brand broadhead on his arrows starting now.
Doesn't sound like it was the BH fault, just bad arrow placement at the time. Even you said you can't believe he hit bone. was the animal moving at the time of the shot?
I had the bleeders snap in a block target. They replaced it, it still in a drawer.
Keep the faith! I hope you find that beast!
Dr. Ed Ashby calls this issue " BH integrity". Example of "not a good thing".
I am a former Magnus Stinger user, but when two of my BH's hit the dirt and were out of balance was was when I quit using Magnus Stingers. Magnus was kind enough to replace the out-of-balanced BH with their lifetime warranty.
Since that experience I have used either one-piece cos BH's or Slick Tricks- no issues.
All the comments are conjecture at best. Things happen, you could of been shooting a ton of different heads and for some strange reason unknown to anyone have a head fail. I shoot VPA 3 Blade 175 grain heads both out of compounds and my recurves. They are tough but I have made some bad hits and had the heads destroyed. Head shot a young doe last year(not deliberately) and that head was destroyed and lodged in the opposite side jaw. Broke a blade and curled the tip. Stuff happens! Scooby
Looks like it got stuck between two moving bones as the animal ran off. If this is what caused the damage I would not say it was a failure. Hopefully a recovery will tell the rest of the story.
lesser built heads would have bent/broke too - some exceptionally tough designed heads should have faired better everything the same - a water buck bull is a 450-500 animal right? and African they're tougher anyway
that head shouldn't have done that - the manufacturer will tell you that
I've probably killed 40+ animals of 7 different species with a 125 stinger. I've bent blades and have broken two ferrules if I recall, one recovered, one not. Blown through both scaps on an elk and down in 25 yards. Couple dropped on spine shots.Shattered the far shoulder on several deer. Blown through a few pigs. Never seen anything close to that in the pics though. Pretty wild.
That was certainly no rib shot, that was some kind of heavy bone hit. Under some kind of unusual forces, possibly into a socket just right or some such. If it was the off shoulder the head did it's job.
These days I don't mind seeing a bent blade so much, I'd rather they bend some before they break altogether. I've had too many broken blades, a couple that pretty much shattered.
Need to determine "where" you want your "failure" to happen, not "if". That is engineered into the head. A blade that's hard to bend can be too hard and just snap. That is an issue with some blades that claim they use knife blade steel. Unless your knife can stand being used as a pry bar and a hammer..... not what a broadhead should be IMO.... Short heads can get away with a lot more.... just physics that the shorter head has a good deal less leverage to blades and ferrules on impact.
Just not being able to shoot it again IMO is not a true failure.
Whatever did that was a total freak hit of some kind. And I would doubt the outcome with a great many very quality heads with that same hit. Stinger is in my top four or five heads I use. That said.... I've found not a one of em I can't bust up.....
Hope you get your recovery.... and can report back here exactly what happened......
So much for the "mechanicals are the only ones that can fail" BS... LMAO! :-)
A Steelhead would have performed better. ;^D
Interesting for sure. I highly doubt if the OP's son and his 55lb had everyone's magical head on the arrow, hitting that bone that the results on the animal would have been different. Maybe if the blades didn't curl he could have cracked the bone, but I still think that animal is gone regardless.
Not defending the head to the end, but at some point we just need to blame ourselves for the loss of the animal and not the equipment.
I bought 6 magnus. After looking them over I decided not to use them. They looked like that may happen. They seem too long and I thought with the right leverage they would fail. Still in a box.
I never said that the broadhead should kill by shooting an animal in the leg. I was looking for opinions on if this should be acceptable damage from shooting an animal. With the use of dogs the water buck was located and my son was able to finish the job with his bow.
Apparently the front leg was rearward more than it looked to the eye or even to the camera. He hit mostly center on the leg bone, but perfect height. The leg bone was broken and it had penetrated to the edge of the chest cavity. So my opinion, if the broadhead had not separated the way it did, the arrow should of had enough energy after breaking the leg to penetrate the chest cavity at least a few inches.
So the million dollar question...should a broadhead from a 55 pound bow hitting directly on the leg bone of a 550 pound animal be expected to produce results like this one did??
Buck would you like me to take those poorly designed heads off your hands?
Are you asking if every broadhead should be able to cleanly bust through the leg bone on a near elk-sized animal and kill it?
I vote no.
You should expect some possible broadhead damage if the head is stuck in bone.
Just my opinion
Gene, congrats to your son on the recovery. You are very fortunate, as Waterbuck can take a pounding and keep going.
I'll say it again, your broadhead should NOT bend/break like that and if you send back to manufacturer and they say it should they're selling crap products IMO.
Way too many heads out there now that are exceptionally tough and durable to put up with heads that aren't.
Granted, that was a tough hit, I'd love to see how other broadheads would have reacted with exactly the same. I'm guessing many would have failed ad the really tough made heads nowdays wouldn't have.
My buddy had a very similar thing happen with a Stinger last year with a direct hit on a cow elk rib.
Great news! I'm sure he's as proud as his Dad!
I'm betting others have had similar results with "high end" broadheads, but we'll never hear from them.
huntinelk... Glad your son could recover his buck!
I think all in all everything is about what it should have been on a hit at that location. I certainly wouldn't say the broadhead "failed". But if you are not comfortable with that outcome change it
Tough one. Breaking a leg bone on a 550 pound animal sounds pretty solid. What's not acceptable, the fact that it broke or the way it broke? I too would be curious to see how some high end heads would have performed. I'm shooting german kinetic 125xl for the first time this year and am not convinced they would have performed flawlessly in the same scenario.
I have shot stingers and love the way they fly and have had zero issues with them.
You shoot them into concrete and they are going to "fail". The bone structures on African animals are extremely tough. The problem here was not so much the broadhead as to where it was placed.I know of no broadhead that would have survived that kind of hit.
Too bad, stuff happens though. I hope you found the critter, it's expensive not to.
TMBB
The brosdhead debate will always "rage" on, but most importantly in this case is the recovery of the animal.
Congratulations to your son! Nice to have a positive resolution and all the misgivings and anxiety fade away.
Get hunting, and keep a daily journal so you can post up a great adventure when you get home!
Glad he recovered his animal, Congratulations! Did he use the Magnus on the follow up shot? If not, what did he end up using?
Thanks and God Bless!
Scar.
My congratulations as well to your son.
As to the BH, IMO there is no such thing as a perfect bH design. All trade some strengths for weakness in other possible scenarios.
All COC BH's, especially the ones leading with a longer two-blade main blade, are more susceptible to curling on impact, which appears to be the main culprit in this failure. The gain is maximized penetration, all else being equal, when no large bone is encountered.
We used to have regular local BH shoots a few times a year, back in the days of slow recurves and fewer good BH choices, and the original style Bear Razorheads were popular. The only way to complete the range, which was a woods course in hard clay and frequent buried rocks, was to carry a pair of pliers and straighten out the BH every few targets so it looked pretty and flew well enough for those speeds and the distances we shot, pretty much all under thirty yards. A popular modification to the old Bears was to round off the leading edge of the tip somewhat to make it less likely to catch in bone and curl.
When I switched to the early Satellite replaceable blade BH's, the curling was no longer an issue. Those early thin carbon steel blades weren't durable at all, but they were quick and easy to change out, and you could carry a bunch of replacements in a snuffbox. The tips on the Satellites were a very hard steel that a file wouldn't begin to cut, but they were almost impossible to curl. One of them was on the arrow that killed my first deer, and did a fine job.
The old Bears had piled up trainloads of dead game for their users over the previous generations, and would continue to do so, but their main weakness was revealed and the central core replaceable with very hard tips became my first choice ever since. I still favor the original style NAP THunderheads for the best balance between tip hardness, core strength, and blade quality. I had one that penetrated the near side of the pelvic girdle at it's thickest part on a young buck, when I hurried a shot on the ground and the bowstring hit my sleeve, and that BH buried to within a quarter inch of completely burying the back edge of the blades in the opposite side of that heavy bone. It severed the femoral artery in passing, and the buck only went fifty yards.
I don't know that it would have made any difference in your son's case, but I think the combo of a very hard tip, replaceable blades that can be of a steel and temper that doesn't need to be compromised at all to perform other functions within the design, and a proven durability in ferrule design, is the best overall combination to meet the various challenges that a BH faces in doing its job.
some broadheads don't fail on concrete - which is why destruction tests are very valuable to me - they might chip or blunt etc ... but breaking from ferrule? no ... quite a few heads on the market don't do that
"So the million dollar question...should a broadhead from a 55 pound bow hitting directly on the leg bone of a 550 pound animal be expected to produce results like this one did?? "
I hit a Bull at 32ish yards in the center of the leg trying to be cute and heart shoot him. My arrow bounced out and the head looked like new minus a bit of tissue on it. It was a short, stubby Rocket 4 blade. In my opinion, your results with a long, unsupported thin tip head wouldn't be unusual when hitting a hard solid bone. It'd probably zip thru the scapula.
Congrats to your son. Finishing and recovering that animal at his age will go a long way in shaping his outlook on hunting as he goes forward.
huntinelk,
Should it fail like that, some times it depends on the angle it hits the bone because of the needle point and causes it to roll. It may have been an angling impact for the point not to hit square for the tip to start to curl, that is very dense bone on an animal of that size. Not all but a lot of us Traditional shooter take that type of tip and file it into a chisel like tip on our two blade broadheads. If you look at the old Bear green broadheads they had the needle tip like what your son shot. They changed it to a chisel tip on the later ones to try and prevent the curling from happening. The chisel tip gives it a stronger leading edge and "less" of chance of curling on impact with bone. Nothing is full proof. I am glad you son was able to get the animal and it is a nice one. That is a lot of pressure for a kid his age after having the mishap of the previous shot. DANNY
Things more weird than that have happened. Good job, move on, and use the same head next year (if you've a mind to...).
Only use the heads again if you are confident in them. Congratulations on a fantastic animal! You are blessed to be hunting such a magnificent animal in such a beautiful place together!
This is why I shied away from broadheads with aluminum ferrules. If I were to ever hunt large game with a fixed head it would be an all steel head. For whitetails I think the Stinger would have done the job just fine, but on an elk sized animal, a hit in heavy bone risks failure no matter the head. An all steel head like VPA or one of the single bevels would probably have given the best potential for a positive outcome.
I've been posting about this trip daily under Family trip with ATP. In the African section.
Congrats on a happy ending to your adventuresome Waterbuck harvest. Bowhunting is never a cut and dry experience. We always learn as we go. Good job young man.
Stinger isn't a "needle" tip. They grind a separate bevel/angle on the tip to strengthen it. I forget what they call it. As stated above, a long COC head like that maximizes penetration. What it's designed for. But it means you compromise on a couple things, blade thickness maybe, certainly leverage. You can shoot a shorter thicker head that MAY be tougher..... but you do so loosing that penetrating blade angle advantage. Just a guess but it would seem for the lighter bow you may have purposely chose a long head to maximize penetration. All designs have their strengths..... and weaknesses.....
I believe that is a 100 head? I have no experience with the 100 but have seen them. Another reason I like 125 heads.... more metal in them, they aren't trying to figure what to cut out or cut back on to lose weight...... the Stinger 125s are a much more substantial head than the 100s.
By all means, try out some other heads. I try different heads all the time..... but very often am right back with the Stinger. I've busted up some heavy bone with them, in all honesty they are better at breaking bones and getting through than the vast majority of heads. But if you're looking at reusing them after that you would be disappointed. Very few if any you would be able to use again.
Good job on the recovery! Nice animal. Congrats!
I will echo your viewpoint on 125 grain heads TD. If one compares same brand 100 to 125 grain in all (nearly all?) cases the 125 is more robust; in most cases it is substantially so. One of many reasons I prefer 125s.
Thats a failure but congrats to your son! I want heads that get a new edge and go back in the quiver on any animal hit. I have bent and broken heads and that was generally followed by going with something new.
So, in that split second, i wonder did it break which allowed it to bend, or did it bend which caused it to break? I think Stingers are a decent design. Could be an extremely rare combination of things all being just right (or wrong).
Awesome glad the bull was recovered. and for your son to do it with his bow. Forrest
I shoot Viper Tricks and the ferrules on the 125 is a little heavier but the blades are the same.
Depends on the construction of the 125, if same diameter the shorter ferrule is stronger.
What's easier to bend, a 1" piece of tie wire or a 2" piece?
That is a definite broadhead failure, congrats on collecting the waterbuck.
Should muddy the waters for those who contend fixed heads do not fail.
I have a Magnus two blade that looks the same except it was shot from a 70 lb bow into a whitetail. The end just curled up, no penetration. Very disappointed in Magnus. They would not stand behind their product when I showed it to them.
Shoot a solid tip head, in my opinion.
Glad you recovered the animal.
I'd use the rest on birds and rabbits.
""Apparently the front leg was rearward more than it looked to the eye or even to the camera. He hit mostly center on the leg bone, but perfect height. The leg bone was broken and it had penetrated to the edge of the chest cavity. So my opinion, if the broadhead had not separated the way it did, the arrow should of had enough energy after breaking the leg to penetrate the chest cavity at least a few inches.""
.
Without seeing the shot, any thoughts on what happened are pure speculation on my part. That said....from the above description, it sounds like the depth of penetration would have put the tip of the BH thru the shoulder (leg) bone and up to the the rib bones. That has me speculating about the possibility that when the shoulder (leg) bone naturally moved fore or aft when the animal lurched and the BH was stuck in it, the rib bone(s) bent the stuck BH tip the way it did and ejected the broadhead?
As to the OPs question: No is the answer. A broadhead should never do that in the scenario you described. I would consider that "faulty".
wyelkhunter: " They would not stand behind their product when I showed it to them." Care to elaborate? From what I understand Magnus replaces the heads. I don't know what a company would do or what you are expecting them to do to "stand behind their head." They certainly can't go get the deer for you so what is left to do?
The failure analysis is based on the assumption that the arrow remained in a straight line of travel without any deflection of any kind...
I would never buy/use a broadhead based on a replacement warranty. It costs as much or more to put it in a box and ship it back to the manufacturer for replacement.
Ollie, I hear what your saying but all u have to do with Magnus is take a pic and email it to them.
Nope - when the ferrule failed and the broadhead curled on a cow elk rib with my buddy's broadside 25 yard shot last year he had to fight with them over it after sending photos. He initially thought the arrow bounced off but it got 6" of penetration into a lung and the cow eventually died. Mike claimed it was a "counterfeit" head, which it wasn't, then had an engineer call him. After multiple conversations they finally relented, agreed it wasn't counterfeit, and replaced it. One of the new ones cracked after shooting it into a foam block for practice a few times. He has now moved back to a quality replaceable blade broadhead.
A friends curled on an Elk rib as well.
I'll stick with Spitfires and Thunderheads.
Sounds like the guys at Avian X
Weird. This is the first time I've heard anybody talk about Magnus warranty being anything but simple. I emailed him a picture and he sent me a new head. I called him another time telling him I was struggling to resharpen their 3 blade head and he told me he would send me new ones if I wanted to replace them. I find it hard to believe the same company that would replace a head because it was dulled by shooting into a broadhead target would refuse to replace a head that failed. Something doesn't pass the sniff test here...
Most two blade cut on contact heads need reinforcement all the way out to the tip to prevent "curling" when a solid object is hit. Some have it, some don't. I shot Zwickey heads for a long, long time and never had any problem with the head curling. I gave up on Bear Razorheads many years ago as they would curl anytime I hit anything solid.
this was the result on a shoulder shot on an iowa whitetail that my father hit...found the arrow about 100 yards down the trail
One night while bowhunting whitetails I accidentally dropped my arrow from my tree stand. It hit a rock below. The tip was bent 90 degrees. Arrow speed 20 feet per second. That's the last time I used Steel Force. I have used Stingers for years snd shot both deer and elk and never had a problem. Had that arrow hit where it should have he probably would have had a complete pass threw and we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Those Iowa bucks are huge....:)
I've broken a couple stingers on foam as well.... with a FP checking the tune......
If you folks don't want your stingers/buzzcuts anymore (the real ones, not the Chinese knock offs...) I'll PM you my address and, um, recycle em for you, very green ya know...... There's at least one guy on bowsite that had done that for me..... a little bowhunter "donation" to the less fortu..... ok, cheapskates =D..... Promise I'll send em to a good "home"....heheheheh.....
WRT the Magnus warranty...... I've sent em a box of 24 that we'd saved up over the years and they sent me 24 new ones, no questions asked. Not sure if I'll do it again, kept me awake at night, felt so guilty I sent em a check to cover return shipping....
"Promise I'll send em to a good "home"....heheheheh..... "
I presume you are referring to the pleural cavity of an axis deer?
spearfisher, are barbed broadheads legal in Iowa?
Well, somewhere on one anyway..... If only I was that transparent when hunting..... never need any camo....... =D
You would be shocked to know, one last week was with a..... (gasp).... mech head.... While it gave up it's own life to complete the duty to which i assigned it.... it did a good deal of destruction and devastation..... Always wanted to try one. My first animal with a mech. It worked!
But if finishing in one piece is the criteria.... it too was a failure.... yet I will forever remember it's valiant sacrifice for my cause......
45 years of bowhunting, 175+ animals, never had a zwickey failure on an animal. Have split a few ferrules when I hit a rock or oak tree.
https://www.facebook.com/helixbroadheads
Congratulations to your son. You chose what you thought was the best option for him. You had a fluke instance. How did the broad head work on the other animals? If you shoot a certain broad head long enough you will have something happen that will make you question your choice.
"If you shoot a certain broad head long enough you will have something happen that will make you question your choice."
Amen
Razorhead a a pretty soft, so I don't think that's uncommon if you shoot them long enough to have one fail. I use zwickies when I want a tough two blade head and I have hit cement and steel and they survive. God you were able to recover the bull.
I forgot about Zwickies when I posted above. Tundrajumper and LB, I agree that they are the most curl resistant of any two blade heads I ever shot. Used the Deltas for a couple years and they never failed in practice or hunting. I still prefer the convenience of replaceable blades and my TH's, but Zwickies are also a great choice for reliability in a two-blade.
2 years ago I shot a doe with a Magnus Black Hornet. It was a perfect shot that passed through the deer and lodged into the base of an oak tree. The broadhead broke right in front of the threads when it hit which I assume was because it wasn't flying true on impact. Anyway I mentioned it on a thread about aluminum ferrules and the Magnus guy PMed me and asked if I'd sent it in for warranty. I told him I hadn't and he said to email him a picture of what I had left of the bhead. Two weeks later I get a 3 pack of Black Hornets in the mail. Stellar customer service and warranty at that place!
Looks like a failure to me.
I think it would have to be one heck of a broadhead to hit a 550 pound animal in the leg bone and not fail.
Great company run by excellent people who make top class heads. I would shoot a stinger any day and often do. On stuff bigger than 550 too
Bear Razor Head 145 Grain
Bear Razor Head 145 Grain
No Curl
No Curl
I Shot the Razor Head for 30 years and never had one curl on Bone.
I Shot the Razor Head for 30 years and never had one curl on Bone.
I shot the Bear Razor Head for 30 years and the I never had any issues with it and I would still be shooting it today if it were still available. I shot the Magnus for 2 years after I could not get the Razor Head any longer. I did not like the small bleeder blade on the Mangus. I only time I had a Razor Head curl like that on me was when I hit a rock. The pics I am attaching are of heavy bone hit with the Razor Head it preformed like this for me several times.
I liked those Bear Super Razorheads, too. Much stronger than the original soft steel curly ones. But by the time they came along, I was already experimenting with other designs and the Thunderheads caught my eye. Liked the three-blades, and the way they held up in practice, and went with them by start of the season.
Yes that is acceptable damage to that bh based on where the animal was hit........
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnXXxQfdTxo 60pound darton, exodus bh, probably a 800 pound animal
My wife and I used Zwickeys for many years.Deltas,Eskimos,whatever.No failures on deer,bear,elk,or caribou.However was with a friend who had one curl on a bull elks shoulder.70 lb bow,heavy 2219,under 20 yds,no recovery.
Nope not acceptable to me at all.
I pay attention to this stuff but wouldn't think of changing broadhead because of someone s bad luck. Been a stinger shooter at least 12 years with no failure on it's part.
It's been almost 3 years since I originally posted this. My son is now bigger than I am, shooting a 70 pound bow with a longer draw length than mine. He used up the remaining stingers that we had on deer and smaller critters.
Although it was a little stressful when it happened, it all worked out in the end. He has a great mount and memories for a lifetime.
Awesome display. Congrats to your boy!!!
From what was stated I agree with JL, that head penetrated the leg bone and broke it and was bent when the animal started running as it was held in the leg bone and the movement is what bent and destroyed it IMHO.
The main issue here IMHO is the shot placement which would be a problem for any broadhead.
Congratulations to you and your son on that hunt! Think that's a lifetime of memories for you as well . Good job dad.
