Thermal handhelds ? Oh boy here we go
General Topic
Contributors to this thread:
Ned 28-Aug-17
drycreek 28-Aug-17
SixLomaz 28-Aug-17
TEmbry 28-Aug-17
Buskill 28-Aug-17
PECO 28-Aug-17
SixLomaz 28-Aug-17
Franzen 28-Aug-17
No Bark 28-Aug-17
SixLomaz 28-Aug-17
Fuzzy 28-Aug-17
TD 28-Aug-17
Coyote 65 28-Aug-17
Trial153 28-Aug-17
SixLomaz 28-Aug-17
Jaquomo 28-Aug-17
Jaquomo 28-Aug-17
SixLomaz 28-Aug-17
tobywon 28-Aug-17
JTV 28-Aug-17
SixLomaz 28-Aug-17
thedude 28-Aug-17
drycreek 28-Aug-17
SteveB 28-Aug-17
ohiohunter 28-Aug-17
Ironbow 28-Aug-17
LBshooter 28-Aug-17
tobywon 28-Aug-17
Bowriter 28-Aug-17
Jeff Durnell 28-Aug-17
Pigsticker 28-Aug-17
bigswivle 28-Aug-17
SixLomaz 28-Aug-17
drycreek 28-Aug-17
Bowriter 28-Aug-17
drycreek 28-Aug-17
Surfbow 29-Aug-17
lawdy 29-Aug-17
Ned 30-Aug-17
drycreek 30-Aug-17
Ned 30-Aug-17
Stekewood 31-Aug-17
SixLomaz 31-Aug-17
Surfbow 31-Aug-17
SixLomaz 31-Aug-17
SixLomaz 31-Aug-17
HighLife 31-Aug-17
SixLomaz 31-Aug-17
SixLomaz 31-Aug-17
drycreek 31-Aug-17
Pi 31-Aug-17
SixLomaz 31-Aug-17
Fuzzy 01-Sep-17
Bowman amateur 06-Nov-19
Bou'bound 06-Nov-19
duvall 06-Nov-19
No Mercy 06-Nov-19
Surfbow 06-Nov-19
drycreek 06-Nov-19
bowhunter24 06-Nov-19
IdyllwildArcher 08-Nov-19
weekender21 08-Nov-19
Quinn @work 08-Nov-19
From: Ned
28-Aug-17

Ned's embedded Photo
Ned's embedded Photo
What's next, heat seeking arrows and bullets ??

From: drycreek
28-Aug-17
I think the next big thing is an image tool to rotate pics.

Oh, wait................:-)

From: SixLomaz
28-Aug-17
Generation upon generation of human beings before us would be ashamed of what we have become. A weak human society on the way to extinction by natural selection, plagued by wants instead of needs, greed instead of empathy, and more importantly lack of faith (please do not confuse faith with religion). Maybe our fate was sealed long before any of us were and will be born? It is incredibly shameful that we direct our thought process mostly towards destructive goals in our quest to feel important because we have no explanation for our existential purpose.

Just do not buy it. It will only accelerate your demise as you walk thru the woods "zombie" style instead of using the senses our Creator endowed us with.

From: TEmbry
28-Aug-17
LOL, I'll have what he's having...

From: Buskill
28-Aug-17
Nice to have while predator hunting at night

From: PECO
28-Aug-17
It would be helpful in finding your down animal, maybe.

From: SixLomaz
28-Aug-17
I am having a clear conscience ... LOL ... nothing else.

From: Franzen
28-Aug-17
I think I would enjoy one for 'yote hunting, otherwise, it's just a poacher's dream. Cool technology, just not for hunting for the most part. I also saw these in a Cabelas catalog.

From: No Bark
28-Aug-17
If we don't limit ourselves, others will do it for us. We'll see what happens.

From: SixLomaz
28-Aug-17
On the same token ... if we do not push ourselves forward / above, others will push us over / under ...

From: Fuzzy
28-Aug-17
sheesh, next thing you know, bakeries will be selling pre-sliced bread, and butcher shops , pre cooked ham...

From: TD
28-Aug-17
It's a slippery slope Fuzzy...... =D

From: Coyote 65
28-Aug-17
Would love to have one, my house overlooks a 5 acre meadow that the elk use. Would be nice to sit on the porch and watch and not just listen to the joists. See the size of the bulls and just plain watch elk behavior while not threatened.

Terry

From: Trial153
28-Aug-17
Wait till someone starting quoting the Book of Revelation ........

From: SixLomaz
28-Aug-17
Are any such devices mentioned in the book you are talking about?

From: Jaquomo
28-Aug-17
I live in a college town where the women are ranked among the fittest in the country. If I took that thing into town it would burn up..

From: Jaquomo
28-Aug-17
I live in a college town where the women are ranked among the fittest in the country. If I took that thing into town it would burn up..

From: SixLomaz
28-Aug-17
... especially if your spouse catches you using it, Superman ... LOL

From: tobywon
28-Aug-17

tobywon's embedded Photo
tobywon's embedded Photo
Thermal image is from an sensor that attaches to an I-phone. The instructor for the course I was taking a couple of years ago had one to determine stream influences. Thermal imaging has a lot of positive uses and applications. It may not be popular with many here for hunting, but companies will market to groups where they can profit. Cant blame them....lets face it, many in our group are gadget guys, whether it is ozonics, laser rangefinders, sights, release aids, game cams, etc.

From: JTV
28-Aug-17
Illegal here.... Indiana.....

Infrared Sensors/Electronic Calls

The use of infrared sensors or electronic deer calls to locate or take deer is illegal. It is also illegal to hunt or to retrieve deer with the aid of an infrared sensor or to hunt deer while possessing an electronic deer call.

From: SixLomaz
28-Aug-17
Indiana wins ...

From: thedude
28-Aug-17
The small stuff is a gimmick. The stuff that you can actually hunt with is stupid expensive, but works pretty good on texas hogs. The phone attachment might be a good thing for your next home inspection though. I dont see how the handhelds would help finding downed animals. Soon as they cool and their fur becomes within a few degrees of the surrounding vegetation and IR crossover happens then it wont work.

From: drycreek
28-Aug-17
Technology is what you, as an individual, make of it. I own a night vision scope on an AR 15 and use it for hogs and coyotes. A few years ago I watched my target buck and one of his cronies for close to thirty minutes at about 75 yards in one of my food plots. It would have been so easy to shoot him at 1:00 a.m. and gotten away with it. But what would that gain me ? Ethics is, and always will be, something that rests with the individual. Technology has nothing to do with it. Although I can see no practical applications for some things, it's not the object that's the problem, it's the user.

From: SteveB
28-Aug-17
Just wait....one day I'll bet we even have something handheld that makes an object look closer than it really is so we can evaluate it easier, be more accurate and insure clean kills. Imagine two of them together, one for each eye. We could even call them "binoculars". Nah, just a pipe dream. And it wouldn't be fair anyways.

From: ohiohunter
28-Aug-17
"it's not the object that's the problem, it's the user."

x100. You can wear a loin cloth and use a self made bow for all I can but don't impose your ideas on the next fellow. If its legal and you want to give it a go by all means have at it.

From: Ironbow
28-Aug-17
If you don't think our ancestors would have used these things, think again. It was about survival, not sport. If it made survival easier, they would have done it.

Indians ran buffalo over cliffs. What is sporting about that, other than the guy that was being chased?

From: LBshooter
28-Aug-17
If you build it Hunters will buy it. No matter what it is today the urgency to get the trophy no matter what is primary and anything that assists in getting the trophy hunters will buy. I.e ozonics, hecs, scent ok etc... Snake oil salesman have been around forever and will always be.

From: tobywon
28-Aug-17
Well said drycreek

From: Bowriter
28-Aug-17
LMAO hasn't been three months since I voiced the same basic opinion on this site. I wrote a column abut breeding a generation of techies instead of hunters.

From: Jeff Durnell
28-Aug-17
But now it's about sport, not survival. Sportsmen should keep the game sporting by ensuring the game a sporting chance.

From: Pigsticker
28-Aug-17
Dude, be careful talking IR crossover they may want a class on thermal theory.

Crossover is not a problem on the more expensive models. You just have to play with adjustments. I don't know about the less expensive version. I'm playing primarily with state of the art.

From: bigswivle
28-Aug-17
Nothing better for wiping out the swine population down here in FL

From: SixLomaz
28-Aug-17
... a new generation of zombietechs or techzombies ... LOL

From: drycreek
28-Aug-17
You driving a Model T Six ? Maybe you're sleeping on the ground or cooking over a campfire. Drawing your water from a hand dug well ? Nah, I doubt it.

From: Bowriter
28-Aug-17
Well now dry creek, we talking about driving, sleeping, drinking or hunting? Seems like a mixture of apples, oranges and maybe some tangerines.

From: drycreek
28-Aug-17
No John, we're talking about technology. You know, advances in technology that most people can use ethically. Like compound bows, rangefinders, trail cameras. Even crossbows, although invented hundreds of years ago, bear about as much resemblance to today's crossbows as a Model T does to a Corvette.

From: Surfbow
29-Aug-17
Old news, compact FLIR has been around for years, this is not the end of hunting as we know it. It's archery season, get out and hunt you luddites...

From: lawdy
29-Aug-17
As one who has had over 100 guitars and every pedal and processer known, I am in no position to comment or criticize. After spending thousands looking for the holy grail in music, I have come full circle to bluegrass and only three acoustic guitars, two Gibsons and one Martin. Thankfully, my bowhunting has always been longbow with wood arrows. We all have our vices.

From: Ned
30-Aug-17
Thank you for your insight and response to this thread I posted. I respect and pretty much understand everyone's point of view. As technology and bowhunting collide it opens up all sorts of complex issues and questions that we've not had to deal with before. With every new technology introduced to our sport comes a whole new evaluation of wether or not it's fair chase, ethical , and how the general public views our activities. Public opinion is stronger now than ever before. Even though this device has been around for a short while it's the first time I have personally seen it, for whatever reason. There is no right or wrong opinion on the use of technology, as long as it has been deemed legal by the state you're hunting in, it's a decision that is made on a personal level by each individual. Personally, the device to me makes it unfair in regards to what is considered " fair chase" for hunting game animals. To compare it to binoculars, and tree stands, and compounds, camo clothing, rangefinders etc... is like comparing a horse and buggy to a Lamborghini. It's like comparing a paper airplane to a droid. If I can actually see an animal up to 300 yards away through all the trees and shrubs it's hiding in, it just takes the challenge and fun out of the hunt, at least for me it would. Anyhow, I'm not passing judgement on anyone who chooses to use any new devices, to each his own. My only question is What's next?

From: drycreek
30-Aug-17
One other thing in this same vein^^^^^^. The unit you are actually referring to ( the one that looks like a flashlight ) is not held up to your eye as one would suppose. I've never seen one, but I'm told you merely look at the image on the tiny lens. I can't see it worth beans to me. My prediction is that it will fade away like many gimmicks in the psst, even though the manufacturer is a respected company and puts out fine products. Deerview Mirror anyone ?

From: Ned
30-Aug-17
Thank you for that clarification, I guess the advertisement is a bit misleading. Happy hunting to all this year .

From: Stekewood
31-Aug-17
I got one of the LTO's last year as soon as it was released. It's the one that Drycreek mentioned that looks like a flashlight. I do some professional culling at night and it has proven to be a valuable tool for that application. A group of animals can be identified and observed without alarming them by hitting them with a light. As Pat mentions, the resolution is such that at ranges out to a couple hundred yards you can differentiate between a large animal and a small one and in most cases can tell what kind of animal you're looking at but that's about it. To get the clarity of the image of the buck on the screen in the ad, the buck would have to be very close, as in feet not yards.

I've also used it a few times when bowhunting. When you hear deer in the dark prior to daylight it can be used to see where, and how many, there are. If you're quietly tracking an animal that may not have been hit perfectly, it can enable you to see that it's still alive in its bed so that you could back out before bumping it. If you have to cross a field in the dark to get to your stand but don't want to do it if there are deer out it in, it will show you whether or not any are there. It could also be used to see where other hunters are already set up when going into public land in the dark.

After trying it a few times, I don't bother carrying it with me while hunting. I enjoy the suspense of waiting for sunrise to be able to see what I've been hearing and the unit takes that magical part of the experience away. I won't put a morning stand up in a spot where I have to cross a field where deer will likely be, so that use doesn't interest me either. I do keep it in my truck for following up marginal hits. A deer left overnight here will be eaten in the morning and it does decrease the number of deer that would be wasted by playing it safe and waiting until the morning on a deer that died shortly after it was shot.

Every person who I've shown it to thinks it's really cool, but In my opinion, unless you do some type of night hunting, or shoot a lot of deer and want to use it to cut down on lost meat, it's more of a novelty item than an aid and probably not worth spending the money on.

From: SixLomaz
31-Aug-17
@drycreek: The answer to your questions is no. However, I do all that and more (or should I say less!?) once I cross the line to go into the woods. There I sleep on the ground, drink from springs or streams, and cook over a camp fire to keep the connection to nature alive. The less gadgets I bring along, the more I relax. Simple is always better for me.

If we need crutches to accomplish a task otherwise attainable with the senses we have and the skills we gained, then we need to go back train more and hone the skills. Executing a perfect kill shot takes not only practice but also patience. Some of that is lost when relying on a FLIR unit. Imagine an environment where doctors rely 80% on machines to help diagnosing an illness. Overtime that reliance will lead to loss of human skill as we all know humans tend to follow the path of least resistance, just like a deer. Take a step further and imagine an emergency where immediate diagnostic is required but the machines are not available for whatever reason. Are we willing to accept the results of a weak diagnostic? We did not come this far to give up our skills just because a machine can do it for us. I will give you an example. When I started hunting immediately I used a range finder only to get frustrated every time I hunted without one (battery empty or plain forgot it). It did not take long before I started training myself to judge distance using my eyes and the brain, while using the rangefinder to confirm my guess. Overtime I weaned off the rangefinder. Today I can estimate +/- 5 yards distances up to 100 yards without the need for a rangefinder. The hard part was to find the will to give up the crutch.

What worries me has to do with how narrow is today the distance between biological matter and technology. The point in time when the two will fuse is not to far ahead. To think that one day cyborgs will become part of human society is uncomfortable and somewhat scary. If one looks carefully at trends it appears that humans are being conditioned to accept technology closer and closer to the point were blending the two becomes the new normal. First you look at a FLIR screen to see something your eye cannot see otherwise. Then you will have glasses to accomplish the same task, and finally it becomes part of your eye. At that point what exactly we define that person as? Savvy?

From: Surfbow
31-Aug-17
"Today I can estimate +/- 5 yards distances up to 100 yards without the need for a rangefinder."

A 10-yard difference is a lot with a bow...

From: SixLomaz
31-Aug-17
It is a work in progress as I continually train my brain and eyes. The +/- 5 yards error is at longer distances and used more for estimating how far the deer runs after shot. I usually take shots at less than 25 yards. At that range my yardage estimate error goes down to +/- 2 yards. Given an arrow speed between 190 fps to 290 fps, recurve to compound it really does not make much of a difference as I adjust for field conditions such as deer behavior and used equipment type. When I use the recurve I tend to take shots at close distance, less than 20 yards, and always aim for the lower low 1/3, (is this considered 1/4!?), as I expect the deer to drop at release sound. On the other hand, when using the compound I tend to shoot at farther distances when necessary, but I still aim in the lower 1/3. Most calm deer do not drop at compound release sound as much if any, because of diminished sound intensity due to distance leading to slow reaction time. In my experience 25 to 35 yards is a critical distance range for deer reaction as they can move in 0.1 to 0.2 seconds from shot time if on alert. I have seen spine shot on deer at 25 yards, aim point was the heart, when the chest dropped all the way to the ground in an attempt to escape the dinner invitation.

From: SixLomaz
31-Aug-17
It is not easy but I am not giving up using what I received from the Creator. Once hunting becomes too easy I set the bar higher to challenge myself, thus increasing the satisfaction of a job well done despite the hard work. Pegging my instinct / senses against a wild animal instinct /senses is what drives me into the woods. Hunting for me is not about trophies or productivity. I do not bait and hunt mostly from the ground. If I was hungry my approach to hunting would be different as my goal would be to preserve energy for survival. Otherwise I can always go to a store or a farm to procure meat.

All this long winded explanation is not to paint myself riding on a high horse but rather to underline why using such devices on a regular basis can be addictive and dangerous for our survival as a species.

From: HighLife
31-Aug-17
Christ your giving a piece of equipment a hell of a lot credit for wiping out the human species

From: SixLomaz
31-Aug-17
Actually you are not too far from the truth, LOL. We are well on our way to breathe intelligence into a machine. Did and do any of the 10 commandments ever stop a human being from trespassing them? Who is to say that intelligent machines will not have the same behavior vis-à-vis engagement rules set by humans for them? It is the principle that will lead us there, not this FLIR unit alone. Imagine the day a machine will come to realize we are no longer needed since from their point of view we behave in a illogical, defective and threatening manner as we always do. Perhaps they will attempt to optimize our behavior to the point of extinction. Would you like that possibility to hang like a sword above your descendants future? Maybe this is all part of completing the larger outer circle of human society existence. Every technological advance we made from one generation to the next generation leads us inexorably thru this cycle of Creation - Evolution - Destruction. Who knows the past, the present, and the future?

From: SixLomaz
31-Aug-17
Even if you don't switch from compound to traditional bow or plan to build a traditional bow please read all 4 volumes of The Traditional Bowyer's Bible by Jimm Hamm. I can assure you will find the reading enlightening.

From: drycreek
31-Aug-17
Six, you may already be a cyborg and just don't know it. Estimating yardage to +- 5 yards up to a hundred ? I am impressed !

From: Pi
31-Aug-17
My ancestors wanted the best tool for the job . That is why they survived. Double pain glass and compound bows included.

I would use this technology to get into my space without disturbing a lingering animal or to alter my approach or even to reconsider using that stand altogether for that day. Not disturbing the animal will keep them less buggered and my space fresh.

I may also use this to see into the woods while it is before or after shooting hours for the joy of watching what happens in the dark and to delay or alter my exit ,if needed.

I would not want to use this for taking a big game animal while Hunting . Night vision scopes for coyote and other pests are a different story. If I was actually starving in a post apocalyptic world then sure why not ... but otherwise , I want the real deal experience , not just a stuffed head on the wall.

From: SixLomaz
31-Aug-17
@drycreek: It is not that hard. It took patience and persistence to get that far. The human body is an amazing and complex system, especially the brain. You may be right about being a cyborg. Perhaps each biological cell in our bodies is a pre-programmed computer networked harmoniously with other cells. Perhaps we are the supreme artificial "intelligence" example; a creation gone wrong given the destructive path we seem to fall into.

@pi: There is nothing wrong with using the best tool for the job as long as it increases our skill level instead of diminishing it. The danger lies in blind reliance.

From: Fuzzy
01-Sep-17
I'm pretty good at estimating out to 100 yards in the open. Woods is hard.

06-Nov-19
Handhelds are very handy, no doubt. But what are your thoughts on using smartphones as thermal vision devices? I read about a thermal camera app and as far as I understand it's a pretty useful thing. And it really works. But I've never tried it, especially during hunting. Maybe there's someone who has some experience with it?

From: Bou'bound
06-Nov-19
At this rate people won't even need to go into the woods to look for deer sign. They will just use cameras to send photos to them while they sit inside. When that day gets here we all lose

From: duvall
06-Nov-19
Ummm....bou....those cameras are already here. Send the pics right to your phone.

From: No Mercy
06-Nov-19
HAHAHA bou is playing with the troll :-)

From: Surfbow
06-Nov-19
Who keeps digging up these old threads?

From: drycreek
06-Nov-19
^^^^^ I don’t know, but since it’s back up I’ll add another two cents. I wish I could justify the $$$ to buy a thermal scope for my hog rifle. I have NV now but it’s no good in the woods, too much flashback. Thermal would be great for hogs and yotes.

From: bowhunter24
06-Nov-19
To the fisherman on here, fished with a guy 3 weeks ago that had the Garmin Pantopix it was like a video game with fish involved. You just put your lure in their face and if they won't eat it after 5 minutes you find one that will. The crappie masters national championship guys were following 2 lb. crappie for 200 yds trying to get them to bite! Technology is everywhere.

08-Nov-19
Besides reeling in a fish or eating a really good fish, the only fun thing about fishing is that you can fish and let your mind clear/wander and you don't know when you're going to catch a fish. And drinking beer.

I can't imagine dangling a lure in front of an electronic fish. At least you'd still have the beer...

From: weekender21
08-Nov-19
I don't want to know about every Mt. Lion I walk by in the dark, ignorance is bliss.

From: Quinn @work
08-Nov-19
This technology has been around for many years. It really can only help you after dark and is only effective at a relative close range. I'm sure most of the ethical hunters on this site would find it not useful for hunting. The only place I can see it being useful would be for finding an animal after dark within the hours the carcass is above the atmospheric/ground temperature. Sure poachers could use this but there is really no way of telling the quality of the animal from the images prior to shooting. Good old headlights on a Chevy are way more effective.

I own a high dollar IR camera for my business and never once thought about using it to enhance my hunting. It simply isn't an effective tool and is illegal.

I can see the thermal scopes being an effective tool for killing hogs at night but for killing trophy animals not so much. However the cameras do have the ability to find where the turkeys are roosting if for some reason you can't figure it out.

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