Contributors to this thread:
Are you helping or hurting hunting?
In order to know where we are going it is valuable to know where we have been . I opened up an old sport's afield magazine and there was an article on poisonous packets in arrows. The author started out by saying that a "experienced " hunter shot at a deer at or beyond his effective range and hit a deer in the neck but the poison killed the deer in seconds. He went on to say that he and three of his friends took similar shots with the same result. We are better than that. This guy would have been slammed by most of us today. I take pride in the fact that my fellow hunters work for hours each year so they know their shot will be true. Yes, we sometimes do not get the result we KNOW we will have but I often read about the hours spent closing the deal so to speak. As I said we are better than that. It is a message we need to pass on to the non hunters.
I can't relate to anything you portrayed from that magazine. Sort of ridiculous, in any decade or century. As for "us" (your fellow hunters) passing on a message, I been on this site for many years, and 99.99% of the members are and have always been "better than that" so in all due respect - you are literally preaching to the choir :) In summary to answer the second part of your question, I seriously doubt anyone on here is "hurting hunting"...
bowhunting today is compounds and crossbows, high speeds, mechanical releases, sights, drop away rests, mech broadheads etc and 50-70-100 yard shooting, tree stands, range finders etc
bowhunting back in the day was recurves and longbows, woods, drawing full weight, fingers, instinctive shooters most of 'em, sharpened their own 2 blade heads, hunting from the ground in blue jeans and a wool shirt
cannot compare them
I agree, but sadly enough more than some hunters need the same message. Not all hunters are as committed as the hunters on BS who truly search for the tools and knowledge to improve themselves afield. I've encountered and know too many who are the weekend warriors, who invest very little time and effort in their skills and equipment, and more often than not they wound more than they kill. Whats worse is they are at least 50% or more.
We all know the realities of hunting, lost game is part of the whole, but when you wound and/or you need a tracking dog for every deer you shoot you need to step back. Whats even harder to do is to step in as a friend... honestly other than just giving a guy a hard time how do you communicate to someone that they may need to reevaluate their hunting situation?
Here is what I see, a small to medium sized group who are dedicated sportsman. These guys go to the events, go to 3d shoots, self improve, research, often engage others with ideas and tactics, etc.... what we do not see are the majority of the guys who dust off their gun or bow the night before hunting season. Better yet the guy who buys his weapon the day before opening morning.
While I agree the non hunters should absolutely be educated about the positive aspects of hunting, I feel a lot of the lesser experienced hunters need more guidance and encouragement to be one of the hunters that fellow hunters can admire.
Hunting traditions are fading.
Fred Bear sold the poison pod.
Hello Jack: I know I am preaching to the choir. I had no intention to imply anything else. I was hunting in those days and the average bow hunter was flinging arrows every night all summer. Even then the guys I knew would not take a shot they didn't think was a sure thing. The outdoor writers of the day were less concerned with image than we are. It is up to you ,me ,and the other choir members to get the message out to those who do not know the church of the woodlot.
I would offer... the experience, practice, and view of Bowsite members probably isn't an accurate cross section of bowhunting or archery as a whole. I know way too many folks utilizing modern equipment (compounds, not crossbows) who don't practice as much as a full hour before the season opens... some who haven't shot as much in a decade as I have in two weeks... seriously. Are we "better than that"?
Pick your battles.
Greenmountain - slobs will be slobs, regardless of era, weapon, or methods.. Safety first (know your target and beyond), now the game laws, respect private property, and whether you slinging buckshot, slugs, muzzleloader, rifle, crossbow, compound or stick bow these are the only things that matter. Completely understand the anatomy of what you are after, completely understand shot angles and what is a good kill angle for your weapon, and practice practice practice to the point that you have 100% confidence. If shot presents itself that gives you less confidence than that, better to wait for another shot, be it that day or some other. Anything less is irresponsible and gives us hunters a bad name. In spite of all that - even the best hunters still make mistakes. (and when they do, most likely - they didn't do everything I just said, and in 33 years of bowhunting, I admit to being guilty of that but it was in my much younger years).
Fred Bear invented and used the "pod" years and years ago. It did not fly back then and folks were much more open about such things in the 60's. Bad idea then and now! Shawn
And the "pod" is still being used today. Nothing is new and nothing has really changed.
"Pod" kills are not eligible for entry P&Y entry.
Many native tribesmen across the world poison arrows. They like to eat and live. Would like to get some feedback from those folks on their opinion.
Read some of the legendary "old timers'" bowhunting stories. They flung wild shots at long distances at running animals just hoping to get an arrow in one somewhere. If they didn't find it, oh well. That's why they carried big quivers filled with a bunch of arrows.
Things are different today. Mostly because we are under a bigger microscope, not because hunting "ethics" have improved.
I remember back in the 80's I saw a video of a guy hunting elk with a recurve. He sneaks up and shoots the bull bedded and hits him in the liver area. The narrator of the video stated it will take that elk over 3hrs to die. There was a rifle hunter guy in the room and he stated that's why they shouldn't allow an archery season for elk.
Also I like the shows where the guy shoots an animal and states I made a great shot. Then when you see him when they find the animal and he only has one arrow when previously he had way more.
We all make mistakes when it comes to hunting, but like stated by Lou, were under the microscope by the non hunting public or antis.
JMO, it’s a good thing that our standards are evolving away from a tolerance for high wounding rates. At least I hope they are...
But poison arrows? Definitely a step in the wrong direction.
Well, I may get bashed but I think some may be missing the point of the poison pod. Although I have never used it and can only go by what some have told me. (It can put a deer down in seconds if the perfect shot was not obtained.) I don't believe this is an excuse for poor marksmanship or was it the intent. But the fact of the matter is that the best shots out there even today can make a bad shot on a deer. Deer move and sometimes they don't move. So anticipating the string drop of an animal, the drop and whirl or the ones that don't even flinch is at best a guess. I believe the "Poison Pod" was meant for these occasions because no hunter wants to see an animal suffer. Could it be used by a quote: slob hunter. I hate to used those two words together but yes. I still don't think it was the intent behind the use of it.
Younger hunters, may not remember. There was a time when "pods" were often discussed and legal in some states. It is said, and I believe true, the poisonous pod concept was devised by Fred Bear. I personally knew two vets. in this state who used them. Not legal here bit were in MS. I also knew, two "Big Name" bowhunters who used them where legal. I don't know about in other areas. What they, the pod, did was encourage taking bad shots. They somewhat quickly, faded out. For the most part, peer pressure will do much of the policing of bowhunting. However, there will always be some who seek the sifter, easier way.
Ok, turning it around... If the legalization of pods were put to a vote by the general public under the campaign of a more "humane" hunting method, with conventional arrow wounding as the catalyst, would it pass in the referendum vote?
I don't think so. It has already been debated and lost. I believe most Bowhunters will reject something this controversial and if not then peer pressure from all sides will reject it. But who knows, I'm seeing things I never thought I would being pushed down my throat every day. Not just in the hunting industry if you know what I mean. I'm not swallowing it.
Arrowhead, I meant a referendum by the general public. Like the bear hunting we lost here in CO by 70-30 vote.
If someone uses some form of poison pod (or whatever they are called), doesn't the poison have a chance to get into the meat? How is the animal still safe for consumption?
Hell sign me up for the pod. Sounds great, probably double or triple my range! Booyah!!!
The pod, and the poison dose used were not harmful to people. It was a paralytic agent, not really poison. It paralyzed muscles, which stops breathing.
I was hunting with a friend in MS that used them. We wake up at his house and are gathering gear and his pods are nowhere to be found. Instantly he panics thinking his toddler may have gotten into them. We wake the whole house up, kids are fine, pods are located and that was the end of him ever using them.
I thought this might be succinylcholine. Very dangerous shit to be carrying around on your arrows. From an old thread: "The chemical is succinylcholine chloride. It is a muscle relaxant that in large doses (such as that admistered by a pod below a broadhead) brings about skeletal muscle paralysis. It is a cruel death as the animal is laying there fully conscious but unable to move or breathe. Unless it dies from blood loss first, the animal is paralyzed and suffocates to death. It is federal offense to possess this drug without a licensed prescription. The drug may only be prescribed by licensed physicians and veterinarians. The drug is not legal for bowhunting use in Mississippi or in any other state. Mississippi chooses not to enforce federal drug regulations regarding this drug and for unexplained reasons the federal government has never sued Mississippi over its refusal to enforce federal drug regulations."
See the link to the 2012 thread:
If you are saying that a little "hamburger helper" on the end of your arrow is needed to reduce wounding rates, then you are making a statement that the bow and arrow should not be used as a sporting weapon because it does not produce clean kills without it. Pods encourage people to take poor shots and to shoot at longer distance because all you have to do is make a hit to kill the animal. The dirty secret that pod supporters don't want to talk about is that poor hits often do not produce good blood trails. The animal is dead because of the drug injected but the blood trail may be too poor for the average bowhunter to follow. Pods were never legal in Mississippi. Possession and use of succinyl choline chloride by anyone other than a licensed physician or veterinarian is a violation of federal drug laws. I never understood why the state of Mississippi refused to enforce this federal law nor why the feds never took Mississippi to task for not enforcing the law. Bob, your statement that SCC in the amounts used on an arrow was not dangerous to people is inaccurate. While meat from an animal killed with a pod was supposedly safe to eat, any accident involving a pod-tipped arrow penetrating a person will be fatal if the drug get into their blood stream.
Non-harmful to be consumed, which is why it worked as a poison without tainting the meat. There are many drugs that cannot be taken by mouth due to either the GI tract rendering them inert, or the GI tract not absorbing them which causes them to pass harmlessly in the stool.
use the same logic on the POD as you use on crossbows, scopes, mechanical releases, mechanical broadheads etc
they make the hunter more effective, more efficient, with a great chance of recovering the animal shot
In MS it is known as anectine. It is a drug used by vets when doing surgery. Slows a system down in a controlled environment. A pod is an Overdose of the drug on an animal and the animal suffocates to death. It is very fast acting.
The stuff scares me to death (literally). If a hunter has a cut and the drug enters the blood system the hunter could be a goner. It could react the same way as with a wild animal.
The drug is generally via a "pod" (powder form). I have also seen magnum hypo syringes used. When the arrow hit the animal, the impact injects the solution into the animal's system, and death will occur.
The best shot for using a pod is a hamblaster. Same principle as a human getting a shot. Butt muscle is best place for injection.
As I stated earlier, an animal taken with poison is not eligible for P&Y entry.
The use of pods, needles and anectine have been a controversial subject within the ranks of MS bowhunters for years. Years ago I think pods were used in SC, if memory serves me correct.
We are helping period and should not get into this conversation with anti hunters because you cannot convince them to think differently. Non hunters should be taught the positive aspects of hunting and if were to discuss the pod it would be a simple “ more harm than good “ comment. We ourselves should not think that we have to defend hunting at every given opportunity.
I am doing a lawful act and as a group pay the lions share of conservation of game animals. I have had very little negative experience with non hunters and most were amazed at all the good that hunters do once informed.
You are absolutely right that we are better than that to think we need explain our actions.
Most people do casual viewing of wild things and wild places. I am wrapping up 3 weeks of hunting where I spent an average of 10 hours a day, bought license, paid process, rented motel, and contributed to the economy in several other methods. You can bet that we are helping. Some conversations are not worthy of the discussion. As far as pods are concerned I hunt with a bow and a arrow tipped with a razor sharp broad head and I will not apologize for it.
If my memory is correct (?) the use of pods was for making recovering your quarry easier. i.e. Not having to invest in learning to track and/or making tracking easier (recovery)
It was not suppose to be harmful to humans.
This post is the first I have heard / read about "poison tips" in many, many years.
buck I 313 I will beg to differ with you regarding safe for humans. Get the relight amount in your body and with a ventilator you are dead.
It is some super bad sh@t and should not be played with. It supposedly requires a prescription to have it.
The info at the time indicated it was not suppose to be harmful to humans. (early 1970's)
I'm confident new info during the past 40-45 (?) years or so may indicate a different conclusion.
I never used the stuff, nor did I have a desire to. As stated, personally I haven't even heard of it in many, many years.
Not my intention to indicate it was safe only that it made recovery of your game easier. (as I recall)
Buck I 313
You are correct that the quick recovery was one of the arguments in favor of use.
I know of several bucks that have been killed and when the hunter found out the deer was not eligible for P&Y they were heartbroken, others tried to play dumb and others tried to slip through the cracks and there hand was called because poison was used.
Anectine has been at the center of controversy for years in MS and probably will be forever.