88 yard shot wow
Equipment
Not sure what is excellent about taking an 88 yard shot. Did Lee talk about how almost all sheep outfitters have a wounding policy and if you draw blood your hunt is over regardless of whether you find the animal that you shot? Something to consider before launching long shots.
Hard to beat a good sheep hunt! Congrats to Lee on his Ram and nice shot, with today's bows that's not all that difficult and in sheep country I'd be prepared for one that long, personally.
He can do it! His 88 yard attempts are as good a percentage as most guys 35 yarders.
I think his caribou shot and kill was even further.
The guy can hit what he shoots at. All part of his full time job, practice practice practice! He knows his equipment he knows his skills and he knows his limits.
Don’t think he is to concerned about the wound policy and end of the hunt......just rebook and have another go around ...he wouldn’t be denied.
The problem with these long shots with a bow or rifle on TV shows like that makes a lot of "wannabes" think they can do the same thing and that's where the problem lies, not with a guy like Lee that can do it through a ton of practice, etc.
Wannabe's are going to do wannabe things. Too many want to be Cam Hanes or Lee Lakosky or Levi Morgan but none of them want to do the work. That is the real problem here. It's not Lee's 88 yard shot or anything else. It's an entitlement attitude of many people that feel they can do the same thing without practicing, working hard, etc. Maybe they can, maybe they can't. I certainly don't blame Lee or anyone else for this mentality. There's no one to blame except the lazy POS that tries it and wounds an animal.
Congrats to Lee on a great ram and a great shot!
Here we go. 88 yards is nice on a stationary target. 88 yards on live game, a lot can happen. The attitude of eff it, just fling an arrow and if he wounds "he" can just rebook, "he" won't be denied? That's a problem.
If you and your equipment are able I don't have an issue with it. Unlike the majority of guys I see blogging on this site, I am from New Mexico. I mule deer hunt with my bow every year. I've killed several bucks ,mu closest being 45 yards,and all the way out to 90. I've never hit a deer that I didn't see die or follow for more than 100 yards. My buck I took two years ago at 90 yards didn't even walk 10 steps. If the conditions are right , and a person is able I don't see why not.
What is the maximum approved distance to shoot at a dall sheep?
How far was your shot at the dall sheep that you killed with your bow?
Nice ram! Like Top Gun stated to many folks see people doing it and then they think thier capable of the same thing. It takes a lot of practice and making sure your equipment is dialed in.
I have several friends, outfitters and pro-shooter buddies that can consistently shoot 4" groups to 150 yards- 88 yards to some of them is like me shooting 30.
I watched that last evening as well, heck of a ram
Maybe this will be the thread where everyone will finally agree on what shot distance is ethical across all species and all conditions.
Fingers crossed.
Having a uniform rule for acceptable yardage is ignorant. I know plenty of guys that shouldn't be shooting at 20 yards but someone like Lee Lakosky is chastised for putting killing shots on animals at 88 yards.
Some will be super annoyed at someone taking a 45 yard shot when they just took a 40 yard shot that they deemed acceptable. It was only acceptable because it falls in line with their personal max distance. Max distances are flawed unless one takes into consideration things like jumpy animals, wind, angle, etc.
The worst shot I blew and should not have taken was from a treestand, it was about 14 yards.
Nice Ram and great shot. My opinion on a Sheep hunt is I’d rather be proficient out to 100 yards vs the best shape of my life. It’s a tough hunt, you run out of cover, wind ALWAYS screws you; but that’s what makes it so exciting and rewarding! Wonder if he used a mechanical??? Lol ??
"The problem with these long shots with a bow or rifle on TV shows like that makes a lot of "wannabes" think they can do the same thing and that's where the problem lies" That is why I think they should take professional golf off of tv, not to mention the Victoria swimsuit show.
Like never taking legal or financial advice from a forum, don't take ethics advice either...
Very common in western states for shots of that range. Easterners sure frown on it though until they go hunt out there and realize they should have been practicing
Spook Spann shot a mulie buck at 103 yds on video, too. Just thought I’d add one more facet to the equation.
I think the number of wannabes doing sheep hunts is ZERO. <<<<~~~~~~>
Beautiful ram no doubt but 88 yards is pushing it, at least in my universe. The laws of physics, space time continuum, momentum and such are tough to alter.
Don't care how good he is, it still takes the arrow a long freakin' time to get there at 88. Animals ain't foam statues.
I'm curious how many people miss at these long distances? I only seem to read these posts when someone makes a shot like this.
Some guys can do it, and some can't! I know a very well know bow-shunter that was doing these types of shots 25 years ago, he was and is VERY successful and is an excellent shot. He never advertised the distances because he didn't want to hear the negative crap. I have also seen him shoot a crow out of the air with a regular arrow. Like I said, some guys have the talent and others don't, if you can't do it every time and every single time in practice , don't try it hunting.
On the flip side, I also know some guys that have the "Just get an arrow in them" type attitude. I won't hunt with them because I don't agree with the lack of what my idea of ethics is. But isn't that all subjective?
Vogie, I'm guessing it's probably about the same number that miss at short distances. I've frankly seen more guys at my local range that have no business shooting at 20 yards than I have at 80.
Is that the Triax he’s shooting? He probably was told to take a long shot to prove the 28” ATA is good at long range. Just a thought
Practicing at long range is great fun and good for form etc. Long range shots on animals can certainly be made but problems can arise- animal movement, wind drift to name a couple. Several years ago I killed a mule deer buck at 70 yds and felt very confident in the shot. Hit him perfectly. Last year my mule deer was shot off a cliff at a steep angle (angle compensated range was 39.9yds, after the shot I did a line of sight measurement of 60yds). The shot felt good. I lost sight of the arrow as my focus was on the buck and he jumped forward at the shot. End result was a gut-shot. I recovered the buck after several hours and another arrow. The decision on long shots is a personal one. Know your ability and the possible problems. Note: I watched shot on the sheep. It was downhill so the line of sight distance was longer than the mentioned 88 yds. Longer flight time.
I killed a ram the other day at 62 yards. For me that is a poke but there was no way that I was not going to shoot should the opportunity be presented. He practices way more than me I am sure. I bet he was within his comfort zone or would not have shot. I have found that in my experience longer shots are more common in sheep country and out west for that matter. I also missed a 170 class buck mid November at 8 yards. lol
The real problem here is that Lee is a solid archer who has practiced to develop the skill so that 88 yards is within his comfort range. Compounding the problem is that he has a good looking wife and owns a lot of great hunting land.
Next thing you know there will be wannabees that think they can shoot comfortably to 88 yards, have a good looking wife, and own a lot of land.
That would be terrible.
“The problem with these long shots with a bow or rifle on TV shows like that makes a lot of "wannabes" think they can do the same thing and that's where the problem lies, not with a guy like Lee that can do it through a ton of practice, etc.”
I don’t know how many wannabe lifters watch the olympics and go attempt to bench press 400 pounds. Sure there are idiots but they are idiots either way.
Beautiful ram! These pros really know how to take the best camera shots. Congrats.
Got to love the Bowsite "Yardage Police"! Happy New Year!
What you DON'T see is how many of those Hail Mary's he's taken that didn't work out so well. But that wouldn't be good TV now, would it?
It's BOW hunting. If you want to kill game at that kind of range then use a gun.
Not a hail Mary for Lee. Dude can shoot AND he's an ice cold killer. Great ram!
Huntin season must be over.....
""buddies that can consistently shoot 4" groups to 150 yards""
top shelf I would say..........................
back to your daily dose of how far is it???
Not saying that he can't shoot. I can hit 80 yard targets too......on a 3D course. They don't move. And when I don't hit the kill, so what? Or when I do hit the 10 ring but the angle I had to hit it at would be a gut shot on a live animal. Editing takes care of all that. That's what video is for.
A guy shoots a really nice ram at 88 yards & gets a bunch of Krap from some guys on here! Another guy shoots a whitetail with a varmint rifle & bullet and he gets advise on how to recover his biggest buck ever! Got to love Bowsite!
I haven't seen the program but based on NV's comment of steep downhill shot, was the "mentioned" 88 yards true compensated distance or the line of sight? If it was the LOS , then the actual horizontal shot distance was something much less than that. Does anyone really know?
Since the first day of bowsite nothing stirs up the armchair experts like shot distance being too far, etc
4" groups at 150 yards...... Not even Levi, Dudley, Ulmer, and Cousins hang around in that group of buddies. You must have one awesome local club.
Wonder why they divulged the distance on the show?
Someone alluded to the outfitters “wound” policy and yes Sheep are a limited and valuable resource so it’s understood when you take a shot (no matter the distance) that policy. I’ve heard of one Outfitter having another policy as well, if he gets you within a 100 yards of an animal it’s counted as an opportunity and you either are not eligible for rehunt or pay the trophy fee. If your effective range is 30 yards on a calm animal you should be prepared to eat some tag soup if you’re going to sheep hunt. Everyone’s effective range is different depending on species and conditions, I can’t tell you what yours is but I Damn sure know mine!
88 yards takes A LOT of the hunt and fun out if it for me but it ain't me holding that critter. Great ram and great shooting but impress me with an 8 yard shot on that big rascal. Now that would really be something. Course guys would fine some fault in that too I guess.
"Very common in western states for shots of that range. Easterners sure frown on it though until they go hunt out there and realize they should have been practicing." My thoughts exactly! Using a rifle for 88 yards!?! Come on man.. great ram great shot!
It's up to everyone to make their own decision on how long of a shot to take on wild game. However, is the purpose just to take an animal...or is it how to take the animal? I personally get more enjoyment from being close enough to see the game blink their eye or hear them breathing when taking a shot. It's these close encounters that drew me to bowhunting over gun 25 years ago and it's still part of the thrill for me today even though I'm capable of shooting much longer distances.
How many of you offering your opinion on this have never sheep hunted, as I have not?
My only thought was I hope Lee was fully rested before shooting. I assume with experience you can tell the sheep is asleep or not going to move?
Hell of a feat IMHO, and I mean the entire hunt, especially the physical challenge.
Is jealousy driving some of these comments?
None of you know your effective range for shooting at a live animal. You do not know what that animal is going to do once you send the arrow. You have no control over your live target. The chances of the animal moving increase the farther away the animal is. It is great that your group is 4" at 150 yards all day every day. That does nothing for you at 88 yards when the animal moves. That is all some of us are saying, not hard to understand or admit. And just because one trad guy can't hit a barn at 20 yards does not mean a guy with a training wheel bow should shoot a sheep at 88 yards, or a guy with a short action ultra mag should take a shot at 880 yards.
If archers are taking 100 yard shots why not just use a rifle ? I don’t care how good of shot a guy is IMO bow hunting is about getting in close. At least that’s what always made me love hunting with bow. Nice ram and it was a great shot.
No....reality. But I've only been hunting for half a century (part of which was in Wyoming), so what do I know?
My Bighorn Ram was the farthest shot I've ever taken in 33 years of bowhunting- 49 yards
This seems like a repeat of the thread from 2014 on his 120 yard shot on a sheep in Mexico......
Curt for the win.
Dudes got a hot wife. Gets to hunt a lot places. And has to perform when it’s time. Give him props for being that guy.
I was helping my dad and brother frame a garage one time. For a guy that had played NCAA basketball. After the end of the day, we all got to shooting. Next thing you lnow, we were trying to beat this guy at a game of 2on 1. Me and my brother against him. We could play but, this guy was unreal. I think he beat us by 9 on a game to 10.
My point is those that do things a lot, tend to excel past others ability. God Bless men
Tim "If your effective range is 30 yards on a calm animal you should be prepared to eat some tag soup if you’re going to sheep hunt. " Nawwww, you just turn to the guide and grab his rifle.......
Guy made a great shot. And has a reputation of being a good one. He came prepared, in many ways. Got it done. Congrats!
Preparation + opportunity = "he just got lucky" in some views. Not mine.
In regards to shot distance and placement, might be interesting to watch their show on monster mulies.
One shot hit a buck in the ham. Another hit a buck in the neck forward of the shoulder. They recovered both animals. As I stated above, I understand occasional bad hits happen.
And once again, what we DON'T know is for that great 88 yard shot, how many others has he taken on game that DIDN'T work out so well? We ALL know that there's a learning curve. You just don't go hunting one day and see game at that range and think, "Hey! There's a shot I can make!" You would have most likely killed game at ranges less than that, and if you're like most of us the further the shot you attempt on game the greater the odds are that 'ol SOB "Murphy" will show up and have his say.
And that's what you WON'T see on TV. Only the hero shot. You know darn well that they film the successful kill shot first and then go back and film "the hunt". With editing. If there hadn't been that great kill shot there'd have been no show.
He missed the 120 yard shot in Mexico.
Too much has been given to the “game” animals we hunt. Don’t get me wrong, I highly respect everything I hunt. I try as best I could to do it as lethally and quickly as possible. I feel remorse when I don’t. But, I’m tired of reading about what we owe the animals we hunt. We ARE trying to kill them. And killing can’t be as sensitive as it’s becoming poplar to be.
By all means, be responsible. But, we got to kill. You can’t kill one if you don’t shoot. And all this talk about what we owe the animals is getting a little ridiculous. We all know our own limits and that doesn’t mean it’s somebody else’s.
Good gawd... he made the shot and a clean kill! What's to criticize? You would think he wounded it and lost it. It is NOT Lee's responsibility if other archets lack proficiency
Yes....a clean miss. And you have no idea of how many animal's he DIDN'T miss but hit in the guts, or the face, or whatever. And you never will. That's not good TV.
Lee can shoot, period. Watch the show.
He makes the first shot, but the hit is not that clear, but he gets a follow up and get is done. Just having the opportunity after what it looks like a long hunt seems it was well deserved.
"But, I’m tired of reading about what we owe the animals we hunt. We ARE trying to kill them." Agree. NP
Either you can make the shot and feel comfortable with it or you don't. That's it. A skilled archer who is also a seasoned hunter is much less likely to wound an animal at a longer range than a lot of the guys I see at the shop two weeks before opener getting their rigs tuned. I try and keep my shots closer but experience is more important. This weekend I had a doe come in on high alert, shortly after climbing my tree. I think she must have heard me. I passed multiple shot opportunities under 30 yards because of how alert she was or the shot angle wasn't perfect. I waited until she calmed down and started browsing at 53 yards, slightly quartering away and made a perfect shot. That shot was a higher percentage shot than a broadside shot at 28 yards that day. I've shot a bunch of deer around 60-65 yards and a handful farther. I've never had a miss or a wound at those distances because I've only ever taken them when everything was 100% perfect. The deers body language all the way up to how cold I am or when the last time I had practiced was. If it's not right I won't loose an arrow. At closer ranges though, I've had deer on alert, rushed shots, sloppy form because it's a "chip shot" and on occasion had outcomes that were not what I'd wanted. It could also just be a law of percentages, I've shot at a lot more at close range, so the odds of a miss or wound happening are higher.
I'm slowly learning that people are going to do what people are going to do.
The main reason I hunt with a bow is the close proximity I get to the animals I hunt. I get a thrill on seeing how close I can make a shot, not how far I can make one. I realize others think differently than me. That's ok. I'm not going to change their mind and they're not going to change mine. That said, you can certainly control how good a shot you become. But that control is lost once that arrow leaves the string. The further the shot, the more time for things to go south. The shooter has zero control if that animal takes a step. Some are willing to take that chance and live with the consequences, whether good or bad. I'm not.
One thing that does not generally enter into these types of discussion is the toughness of the game being hunted. There are some species that IMO are tough as nails and if you don’t hit them just right you are not going to recover them. I would put whitetail deer and elk in that category. Have not hunted goats yet but based on what I have seen and heard they would also be pretty tough. On the other hand there are some species, IMO, that are looking for a reason to die. I would put caribou and sheep in that bucket with mule deer not too far behind. This is just based on my experience. I guess my ethics could be called into question but it is something I consider when determining what shots are within my limits.
No amount of practice can compensate for the animal moving..... just unethical. Its all driven by sponsorships and the need for kill footage.
Fred Bear consistently took long range shots and consistently missed a lot of them. Just sayin. (Thought I might as well throw a little fuel.) :)
He located animals with aircraft to hunt too..... times were different then...... apples to oranges...
Yeah I'm not much for the word "ethical" since ethics are not a one size fits all. If it's legal and you can look yourself in the mirror the next day with no regrets, works for me.
An 8 yard shot woulda been even harder.....Bowsite and social media still running a 100% kill rate on all shots over 80.
The best fletching nowadays is editorial control......great ram for sure
The pin on the bowsite is bigger than the target at 150 yards....what could you possibly aiming at....the general "area"....lol
Way to start 2018! Was he using a mechanical?
I'll be back after I get more popcorn and PBR!
Isn't 50yd + shots reserved for crossbow hunters (that's the main cheat of a crossbow anyway as I've gathered from other threads... to much range)? Just sayin. ;)
Not just one, but several that shoot 4” groups at 150yds? Heck, at that range the pin not only covers the spot, it covers the whole darn target. Now that’s impressive! Sounds like a Dos Equis commercial. lol!
I agree everybody should stay within their effective ranges. but dont you think they thought they were within their effective range when they took the shot. I agree with Killinstuff. If you can look in the mirror and say I thought I had him dead to rights you cant do any better. Sometimes the best hunters with the most skills have things go wrong, and there is no sense beating yourself up when that happens and other folks would do best by keeping their opinions to themselves. Because at one time or another its going to happen to you.
Exactly! It HAS happened to me, and anyone else who's done any amount of hunting. And we LEARNED from it. One of the things that I learned was that the further the shot, the higher the chances are that the animal will move, or the angle you THOUGHT was being presented wasn't really that. Things like shadows, cover, wind, etc all have their affect......"MURPHYS"! And it's a BIG part of bowhunting...or at least bowhunting that's not been produced and edited.
""Not just one, but several that shoot 4” groups at 150yds?""
This has to be the best part of this thread!!! I want to meet these guys!!!!!
"It is NOT Lee's responsibility if other archets lack proficiency" Other archers lacking proficiency is not the discussion. The discussion is long range proficient archers on stationary targets taking long shots on live animals that may or may not stand still and wait for the arrow to arrive. An arrow takes a lot longer to travel 88 yards than a 7mm08
"I have several friends, outfitters and pro-shooter buddies that can consistently shoot 4" groups to 150 yards"
Uh huh, yep, suuuuuuuure. ;)
It was a typo with the "0" in the wrong place. 40" groups at 15 yards LOL
LOL. Might have used the Alabama adjustment measuring system.
How much time is that arrow in the air?
With Average bow speed .... I bet the arrow flies for about one second , maybe a hair less.
88x3 = 264feet.... a feeding animal may take one step. If you are observing one step every 5 seconds or less , that’s a decent stationary target. A guy that can punch 10 rings at 90 yards might feel comfortable.
I once shot a walking buck at 25 yards. Arrow took about 1/4 second to reach the target and the arrow hit exactly where I was aiming. Hypothetically my arrow arrived 1/4 second behind my aim point but I still hit him tight behind the shoulder.
Do what makes you comfortable... striving to be an ethical hunter.
Sheep can't be too hard to hunt. I know two young guys who've killed three Dall sheep each with longbows and don't think the longest shot was thirty yards. Of course, these guys are probably better hunters than the average TV/internet ego's.
Can't people just say great hunt and great shot Lee.
If that’s what you believe, then yes. If not, then no.
Fred Bear and the boys use to shoot that far with stickbows. Too far for me. The thrill for me is getting in their back pockets.
TMBB
Woodswalker: And you have NO IDEA wether he did miss or wound any.
I know if I had invested 20k in a sheep hunt that I would practice my butt off... and I would take the longest shot I was confident in. 20 thousand dollar tag soup would taste awful.
I'll congratulate him, but not a fan of it. Was in a Colorado camp some years ago with a bow rep amidst us. I'm stalking an elk in the scrub oak when I heard a overhead noise and watch a arrow gut shoot a nice mule deer. He was trying to top the "smiley" archer with a 110 yard shot. In camp he could do it, but the mule took a step.
I'm actually surprised at the wadded panties here from a higher caliber bowhunter.
Of course that is a long shot...but as in most shots, the variables like species and body language probably carry more weight than distance with a top shooter. Sure the arrow is in the air for a long time on an 88 yd shot. I would rather take an 88 yd shot at an unaware Sheep than a 40 yd shot at an aware whitetail.
Its each bowhunters responsibility to know the variables and i know many here have their masters degrees in their chosen species behavior.
example; is there a big difference between a feeding Dall sheep and wild hogs- hell yes. Watch sheep move while feeding...then watch a group of hogs.
Sure, everyone has their effective distances...but IMHE, 9 out of 10 times its Animal behavior that dictates the shot.
BTW, I didn't see the shot....speaking in generalities here. Congrats Lee.
Good post Beendare. Well said
Lee probably has lots of things that I don't have, among them the ability to hit a sheep in the vitals at 88 yards. Glad it worked out for him.
Woods Walker,
We don't know how many times Lee has gut shot missed at long distances just like we don't know how many times you have gut shot or missed animals at less than 20 yards. What is the difference?
I still can't get past Ned missing a 170" buck at 8 yards. Dang.
Rick,I think since switching to a sports bra he has improved nock travel dramatically.
Congrats well done. The guy went sheep hunting and killed a sheep. Sweet
88 yds in sheep country is probably like 40 yds sitting over a corn pile
If you have noticed, I have nothing to say, except, Great Shot Lee!
I agree with a lot of the folks on here. If a guy knows his equipment and practices a ton at long range then really no reason to take the shot. I consider myself an average to slightly better then average shot. I missed a shot at a huge 7pt this year and the distance was shoot for distance of 9yds. The issue was he was 20 but the angle of the dangle made it tough. I was in a stand we call nose bleed and he was way,way below me. Two days before made a great shot on a doe at 55 yds. My point is stuff happens and I have n problem wit folks who practice and can make those 85-100 yard shots. I shoot and am in friends with a guy who won vegas and the worlds and he can put 4 arrows with broadheads in a spot the size of an tennis ball at 80 yards. He killed a nice buck this year at 56 yards a shot I say 80% f the folks hunting should not consider taking. Shawn
Gotta love the ethics police. A deer at 20 yards is as likely to move at the sound of a bow, if not more likely, than a calm animal at 90 yards, especially a sheep. Beendare made great points in his post.
Cabin Fever at its finest here today
Did we just have a full moon the other night
One 6 pack down, one to go!
88 yards, 120 yards.....so much for "picking a spot"! More like, "pick a general area"!
I outgrew that need to "prove" how great I am many years ago.
Stand on a football field. Now back up to the back of the end zone. Now put an animal at the back of the opposite end zone.... That's a hell of a long poke. If I'm shooting that far.... it's going to be with a 30-.06,,,,, But I'm not Lee Lakosky......
And you don't have a production crew and a film editor either to "make" the story BEAR.
Tim Wells has made some seriously good long distance shots. In this vid he hits the animal up close, reloads and hits it again on a run at 130 yards. They show it in slo-mo. He has several long distance shots on Youtube.
Great sheep, congrats to Mr. Lakosky! I hope I'll be able to do that hunt some day.
Tim Wells the guy that accidentally put the spear that he was hunting with through his thigh ?? Yeah I've seen that guy on TV..... Not impressed..... I don't think he gives a damned if he wounds an animal. I wouldn't compare him to Lee Lakosky......
Bowhunting is the art of getting close to game. Why didn’t he just shoot it with the guide’s rifle? What’s the point of hunting with a bow if you’re going to be shooting long distances to begin with. If you don’t want to eat 20,000 of tag soup, then use a rifle. The challenge of bowhunting is getting close to game, it’s not “suppose “ to be about how far away I can shoot an animal from.
I have killed enough animals out here in the west past 50 to have an experiential view that animals are way less likely to react past 50 yards than under. I have shot at animals (deer, antelope, elk) past 50 that literally watched as the arrow came at them and never moved until it hit them. I can guarantee you that many of the prolific multi species killers here on bowsite routinely take shots well past 50, and do so with extreme effectiveness. (Much more so than many of those will only take a 40 yd shot or less)
Saw the show. Hard to get all that goes into one of these hunts in a 30 minute show, but did give a little bit of the flavor.
Great shot and ram.
Congratulations to Lee on an awesome hunt.
Sheep are tough to get close to, especially with a camera guy in tow.
"Fred Bear consistently took long range shots and consistently missed a lot of them. Just sayin. (Thought I might as well throw a little fuel.) :) "
People used to own other people too.
Times change.
I’ve seen the show a couple times and back and forth on the shot on my DVR. Lee is definetly a good shot and I’d congratulate him on his second sheep. I’m going sheep hunting next summer though and have been practicing out to 120 yards. I really hope I can get way closer than 88 though!
"I outgrew that need to "prove" how great I am many years ago."
maybe when you realized you could not hit anything at a given distance. LOL
seriously how can one person know the true motivations of another? There are guys far less accurate at 30 than he is at 100, but if they posted about a 30 yards shot we would all think the guy did a great job of getting within his effective range. we don't know what the 30 yard shooters effective range is. Lee proved what his is.
here is another one.............."Bowhunting is the art of getting close to game."
...........is it or is bowhunting about killing stuff with a bow and therefore one has to get closer than with a gun since bows don't shoot 200 - 700 yards..
who passes game in their highly effective range just to continue to get the pleasure of the stalk so that they can say they enjoyed it more by getting closer.
who says .................I can shoot to 30 and nail ping pong balls and could easily kill this elk at 30, and I am at 30 broadside right now, but since I am bowhunting I am going to try to creep to within 15 and kill him from there............because bowhunting is about getting closer............. and I can have 2x the fun if I cut the distance in half even inside my effective range.
why kill at 30 what you easily could when you can continue to stalk in at for the fun of it.
people need to be honest with themselves even if they are not to others
What takes more skill... killing a sheep at 20 yds or making an 88 yd shot with a bow? Taking a buck at 70 yds with a rifle or 520 yds? Skill is in the eye of the beholder. I have killed multiple bucks over 500 yds with rifle and several more over 400 yds, all one-shot kills and no misses or wounds. I have killed deer with a bow over 50 yds. Funny thing, haven't missed the long shots but have missed 15 yd bow shots due to the "chip shot" mentality.
It's always amazing to me how so many guys are concerned about how the other guy goes about his business. This ain't a team sport last I checked. You get to hunt and shoot how ever you want as long as its legal so why can't you let the other guy do his thing without being a prick?
I can't wait to see a repeat of this thread in 4 years when technology in bows makes it possible to make a shot at 175-200 yards......
The furthest target at our club range is 100 yards. We have a big club with some pro shooters - and a couple well-known "TV hunters" too. I watch some of these guys drop shot after shot after shot into the 10 ring at 100, and then back up and keep doing it. Cam Hanes and Dan Evans and a number of others can do that at 200.
Not my place to criticize ethics when shooting at animals, because I shot under a 150" whitetail with a compound this year standing broadside at 18 yards. But as far as shooting ability, with today's equipment and single pin sliders 100 yards is no big deal for a lot of shooters, especially here in the West.
I used to be highly critical of long distance shooters. Not anymore. If that's what trips their trigger and they can make the shot, it's not my place to judge.
Great ram and great shot by Lee.
You will not kill anything if you do not put arrows and bolts in the air. Congratulations on a ram kill.
The future will be interesting, especially with scoped and modern engineered crossbows now becoming 175-200 yard weapons during the archery season.... especially for the hunters willing to practice long distance shooting and invest into great scopes. If he can likely make the shot and has practiced it, why not take it? Who am I to say what another hunter's capabilities are, this thread verifies that opinion?
Once time I shot a 10 ring at 85 yards with my longbow. Many, many, many other times I hit the target, but stuck an arrow in the gut, leg or hind quarter of the 3d deer. Now, it is comforting to know, that in the unlikely scenario I kill a deer at 85 yards with my longbow and have that one shot televised I will have an army of people supporting me because they were shown the effect of the one good shot and will remain entirely oblivious to the mishaps they weren't privy to.
And one time in band camp...
Wallace, according to many, you are worrying about minor, unimportant, and very, very logical details. Simply practice 100 yard shots at the range and knock off some distant trophies in the wild. Easy to do for some.
Some are going to be very, very disappointed when they realize they dont sit on the right hand of God almighty
I'm sure glad there has never been a critter shot in the guts, high on the shoulder, in the neck, head or ass at 20 yards.
I bet there have been a million bad shots made at to 20 yards to every one bad shot made at 88 yards. WTF are you guys worrying about? Bitch at the guys dinged critters at 20 yards if you're that concerned. That's a way bigger problem..... if you want to call it a problem.Geez.
Ended up being 93 yards and the sheep moved at 90 degrees and 3-4 feet before the arrow entered frontal in the arm pit and came same rear flank. With out the good fortune they had to get off a follow up shot that sheep would died a long painful death. THAT IS NOT ARCHERY HUNTING.
Some of you guys on here should contemplate the phrase “ Don’t measure my corn in your bushel “ .
Oh.. and many many many more times I missed said target.
I'm still waiting for the acceptable ethical shot distance chart.
If you practice...compound ethical shot 100 yards, crossbow 185 yards.
Wallace, You got lucky with one shot from a recurve. Lou pointed out that shot after shot fell in the 10 ring from 100 and plus yards with compounds. See the difference?
Here's a good article to read.
Would be interesting to know how many of those above condemning Lee, have done what it takes in life to be able to drop the coin to go on a dall sheep hunt at all, much less with a bow. I'm betting with all the opinions above there is very little experiene to back it up.
Sure am glad that I didn't know the maximum acceptable distance to shoot a dall sheep with a bow was 30 before I killed one much farther than that.
BTW: I love that Lee Lakosky and Cameron Hanes are getting lumped in with Levi Morgan on here... LMFAO! That is priceless!
Having a lil PBR in my corn flakes!
Just to be clear, I'm on Lee's side. You guys trying to be the ethics police need to answer Bowfreak's question!
"Would be interesting to know how many of those above condemning Lee, have done what it takes in life to be able to drop the coin to go on a dall sheep hunt at all, much less with a bow."
Oh I get it now, if you've got a big wallet your effective range automatically goes up. Got it!
laughin'
"You will not kill anything if you do not put arrows and bolts in the air. "
Won't wound anything, either....
Just sayin'.
"I used to be highly critical of long distance shooters. Not anymore. If that's what trips their trigger and they can make the shot, it's not my place to judge."
We had a guy on LW who used to talk about killing Elk (with home-made longbows, no less) at 65 yards or so, and 10-15 years ago I gave him hell about it on a (VERY!) regular basis. Eventually, I got past the need to impose my limitations on others... Helped along, no doubt, by the fact that this guy just happened to be The Real Deal and I learned a bunch from him once I started listening....
That said..... There's a great, yawning chasm between cautioning someone against making a habit of taking long shots and awarding him Hero status for having pulled one off.
I would expect that most people understand/assume that anyone who has reached "Celebrity Hunter" status is probably a very solid shot with his chosen equipment (and quite possibly with anything you want to hand him); but I do wish that these guys would shift the focus to only taking shots that they know damn well that they can make (and shutting the hell up about the range), rather than putting the emphasis on how far they are shooting. We Mere Mortals have always sought out Heros and our greatest weakness in that is that we seem to be hard-wired to both emulate and compete with these chosen role models. Seems to me that if they're fortunate enough to be able to make a living doing what they do, they might contemplate their responsibilities as Role Models and place the emphasis where (IMHO) it belongs, which is on a quick, clean kill and having the discipline to pass up ANY shot on ANY animal if there's any doubt. But of course the equipment sponsors would rather have the viewers believing that Brand X is Best and the long kills somehow prove that. We Mere Mortals may never be able to shoot the same class of "Trophy Animal", but we can all dream about the Trophy Shot if we'd just buy this year's model, which is 2 fps faster than last year's...
And where that really runs into problems is with the Dunning-Kruger effect (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOLmD_WVY-E ); long and short, a lot of people of very modest ability think they're Gifted (for example, 85%-90% of all drivers believe that they have "above average abilities" behind the wheel) and - oddly enough - a lot of people with Madd Skillz have forgotten how hard they had to work to get to where they are and actually consider themselves to be pretty average; so there are often a lot of Wannabes who think "If ___________ can do it, so can I" (when they are completely unprepared for success), and the folks who are actually qualified for such a feat may not speak up because when they think about it, yeah, they're pretty sure that they could do it themselves (under the right conditions) and because they (erroneously) figure they're Nothin' Special, then their thinking is more "what's the big deal?"
And with all due respect, Jaq.... the fact that you missed a big deer at close range proves Nothing At All; you just picked the wrong pin. I'd be willing to bet that A) your "miss" was on a plumb-line relative to the 10-ring and B) that you would never have missed that one in the first place had you been using a bare bow. But you're plenty accomplished and most likely have a tendency to underestimate yourself... You probably think you're just an "average" writer, too...
Nothing to do with wallet size, everything to do with experience size of a subject you are trying to offer advice on.
Kodiak, please post a picture of your bow killed sheep.
I can't, I've never sheep hunted.
The laws of physics don't apply when sheep hunting? Please help, I'm just trying to learn.
Are bowhunters as concerned about wounding animals as they used to be a couple of decades ago? What about crossbow hunters? What do you believe is the actual national arrow and bolt wound rate vs kills, 30%, 40% ?????
In the quest for horn porn and records , are longer archery shots and increased wounding potential now becoming more acceptable than 20 years ago?
Randy Ulmer shot a bull elk at about 25yds one time. Good shot. Elk ran to 103 & he shot it again almost thru the exact same hole! Cam can do things with a bow that alot of people can't with a rifle. There's alot to it but it can be done with confidence! #KeepHammering
"Ended up being 93 yards and the sheep moved at 90 degrees and 3-4 feet before the arrow entered frontal in the arm pit and came same rear flank. With out the good fortune they had to get off a follow up shot that sheep would died a long painful death." I didn't see the show, is this what really happened? That's great shooting? You guys are signing off on this?
Congrats to him on a nice ram. I don't know Lee but he seems like a stand up guy. Just because 88 yards is too far for this eastern hunter, doesn't mean everyone is the same boat. In fact, threads like this have opened my eyes to longer shot distances with hunting out west in the open country. I can hardly see a clear opening at 88 yards in the woods that I hunt here in the northeast. It still doesn't mean I'm going out there and taking longer shots while hunting. However, it has opened up my eyes with long range practice to improve my form. Watching you tube videos, I am seeing more archers becoming more proficient at longer shots. With that said, there are some terrible shots as well (mainly terrible decisions and a lot of luck). One in particular is a 90 yard shot at a big mule deer. The hunter took a shot at the deer facing him and by the time the arrow got to him, the deer luckily turned and the arrow hit him right in back of the shoulder, perfect. Had that deer not moved, who knows what the outcome would have been.
" There's alot to it but it can be done with confidence! #KeepHammering"
No, there's a lot that can be accomplished with COMPETENCE. #Don'tBeStupid
Peco: That is EXACTLY what happened. It showed the entire thing except the duration between initial hit and follow up. Could have been minutes, could have been hours. Lee was very fortunate things ended how they did.
let's be honest that todays bows and associated equipment are much more capable than it was twenty or thirty years ago. Number 1 is the range finder coupled with the slider sights. tuning bows and arrow cow combinations with the micro adjust rest is absolutely critical and the movement toward mechanical releases makes it much easier too. It still requires practice so I am not in the corner of anyone can do it! Personally, I would not be going on a sheep if 50 yards was my maximum effective shooting range. My money, my call and other opinions do not count when I am the guy paying the way.
Also, If I am basing my opinion on my abilities versus their ability then maybe I should reevaluate my position.
As far as recovery rates I would say that they are higher today if not because of the above reasons and better broad heads that do not require hand sharpening but for the amount of information that is readily available. Tell me you have not learned something from the blood trail challenge or personal inquires for help on this forum and others.
Recovery rates may be higher, what are they based on personal experience? In my 49 years of helping others, seems to be about a 40 % loss rate when "all" hits are considered. That does not mean every wounded animal died, as some were superficially wounded.
Missouribreaks you tag along with some piss poor "hunters" if you have 40% loss on average. Please do the world a favor and cut the bow strings on those that ding that much game.
I like Jaq's post. And BPM's too.
I used to be innerly critical of long distance shots. I don't know if I ever voiced it or typed it, as I'm not one to criticize usually.
I became less and less innerly critical as I started shooting farther and farther myself. Let me go ahead and say right here. . . I'm NOT a good shot. I struggle mightily with form and consistency. But I started to push my practice distance farther and farther back. It MAKES you concentrate on form. I found I became a better shot.
Back when 40 was my max practice distance, I struggled at 40 and even 30. As I got a bow that fit me better, and set it up for accuracy rather than speed, I started shooting farther and farther. Practicing at 60 made me a much better shot at 30 and 40.
This last year, I bought a 3 pin slider and started shooting out to 100. I did that for one reason. . . . I had made a bad shot in 2016 on an animal, then had a follow up chance at 100 yards. But I'd never shot that far. I got that animal, without a follow up arrow in him, but it was a lucky deal. I VOWED that wouldn't happen to me again. I WOULD become able to take a follow up shot at longer distances.
Man, I worked and worked at it this year. Shot a lot of arrows at 100, 90, 80 and below. Talk about a confidence booster. 60 yards was the new 40. I am not in the league of the shooters mentioned above, and can't drop them in at 100 time and again (I have a flyer occasionally), but I really increased my confidence out to 60.
I am going to push it even farther next year. I may have to make some changes to my bow, or tinker with my anchor or something, but I'd like to practice out to 120 and 130 this year. Just try to make myself a better shot, with more consistent form. We'll see how it goes.
I don't believe I'm at a point where I would take a shot over 60 at an animal, that wasn't already hit. But I'd like to get to the point where I'm confident I could, if it ever happened.
I think people would be amazed how accurate even an average shooter can be at longer ranges, if they set up a bow for it, and practiced it.
Sure, animals can move at 88 yards. Animals can also move at 15 yards. We pick our best shots even at closer ranges, who's to say people aren't doing the same at longer distances?
Also, a factor that I believe hasn't been discussed above. . . Probably on this sheep hunt, if a bad shot had been made, it's likely that the sheep could have been followed up and finished with a rifle. And given the open nature of the terrain, following or re-finding a wounded sheep is not the same ball game as it is with say a whitetail where the cover keeps you from keeping tabs on an animal. . . .
I haven't seen the show, but I really don't have a problem with it.
Watching it right now. Elk man in correct.
This is a good read for you guys.
The answer, of course, depends on the ability and ethics of the person shooting the bow. I do know archers who can consistently shoot arrows into a 4-inch circle at 50 yards. Many I've spoken with have a self-imposed range limit of 40 yards. Most wouldn't take a shot at a deer more than 30 yards away. Imagine my surprise when a man asked where the 100-yard target was at our local archery range.
He then told us of hunts long ago, for antelope in Wyoming, with friends who could kill one of the wild goats at 100 yards with a bow. Remember, we're not talking about an elf in "Lord of the Rings" here, but guys hunting with early compound bows. During the period the man described, compound bows were a bit different than those made today. Let-off was less and there were still many hunters who preferred recurve bows. Nonetheless, a 100-yard kill shot on an antelope was an interesting thing for me to ponder, so I devised an experiment.
During a 3-D archery tournament in Sidney, Neb., I set up a long-range contest by slapping a stick-on, 6-inch-diameter, fluorescent rifle target in the middle of a 30-inch archery cube target, and setting it 95 yards from the shooting line. I told every archer who came that I would give a brand new $60 hunting knife to the first person who hit that 6-inch target with an arrow at 95 yards. All they had to do was pay me a dollar per arrow to try. I raised a lot of money for the shooting park that day and got to keep the knife.
Not one person could resist taking at least one shot at the distant dot, and most shot five or six times. Of all the arrows that flew downrange that day, only a handful even managed to connect with the 30-inch cube, and none was within a foot of touching the 6-inch target. Granted, none of these archers had or ever would take a shot like that at an animal, but all had to try to see if they had that shot in them.
An arrow will travel quite a ways. Medieval legends speak of archers making shots on targets hundreds of yards away. Two friends and I wanted to see how far our arrows could travel at optimal trajectory, so we decided to find out. In a closed field, a mile long, we stood beside one another with a 20-mph wind at our backs. We took turns holding at what we thought was close to a 45-degree angle relative to the ground and let fly. They shot, drawing about 60 pounds, and I shot my bow pulling about 55. After several shots each, the shortest arrow flight was 297 yards and the longest was 342 yards. The world record of more than 1,000 yards wasn't in any danger. Still, the thought of that 100-yard antelope shot lingered in our minds. So we decided to do it.
Don't freak out. I set out a full-size McKenzie 3-D antelope target and laser-ranged it to be exactly 100 yards from an improvised shooting station. At first, arrows missed, but once we figured out the right position for holding and aiming, arrows started smacking into the foam goat. I had a good day with four of my eight shots hitting the life-sized target, including three in a row. Unfortunately, only one of those four shots would have been fatal on a real antelope. The others would have wounded it badly.
Is it possible to kill an antelope with a bow and arrow at 100 yards? Sure it is. Would I personally try it? Nope. Not until I can hit a pie plate at that range each and every time, and I don't see that happening anytime soon. For now, I'm content at having increased my sure-kill range from 25 to 40 yards after a summer of practice. Eventually I may get to 50 yards, but not until I've practiced a whole lot more.
Ability and ethics should go hand in hand. Even when you are confident of your ability at a given range, extenuating circumstances should always take priority. When cross winds, an animal quartering away too much, or branches in the flight path cause concern, the ethical bowhunter will let down unless a quick, clean kill is certain.
For those who are considering practicing long-range shots with a bow and arrow, please use extreme caution. Our test was done on a closed shooting range aiming away from anything resembling civilization. Modern bows will shoot several hundred yards under the right conditions, and it is every archer's responsibility to know where the arrow could go before it is released.
Here’s 3 shots at 90 from this summer. I believe that white mark is 6 inches across. And like I said above, I’m not a good shot
4 shots at 80. The first two were the best
"For those who are considering practicing long-range shots with a bow and arrow, please use extreme caution"
Practice?? You talking about practice!!??? Just play the game...nobody cares about practice....
"Here’s 3 shots at 90 from this summer. I believe that white mark is 6 inches across. And like I said above, I’m not a good shot"
How far were the ones that barely hit the freakin' butt shot from?? Asking for a buddy...:)
I have the same experience as Bake.
Skull.......If a guy had an 80 yard pin set as his longest it would still be hard to hit a 95 yard target. Drop off increases significantly. If all the shooters had a sighted pin for 95 yards .... there would be a lot closer arrows flying into the target.
Genesis. . . you talking about all those arrow marks all over that target? :)
I sure didn't say I was hitting that good when I began :). The farmer might have run over a lost arrow or 7 in that cornfield too. :)
It took a LOT of shooting to get 3 arrows and 4 arrows in those measly groups. But I got to where I could do it consistently. Believe it or not :)
I'm lucky, that's my yard. I shot every single evening except for Sundays, from June until I left for elk in late September
How much a hunt costs or how much money you make should not change your ethics.
I’ve noticed reading thru this, of the guys that have ACTUALLY hunted sheep with a bow, there is only one with disparaging things to say. Some very accomplished stickbow ram hunters at that.
Jealousy shows itself often here.
Just because you or I cannot do what Lee Lakosky does, does not make him wrong. That’s a fine ram, and all rams in the north country are hard earned no matter the distance they were shot at.
Three shots at 80 yards; do not start practice with a pie plate but use a smaller aiming point. I started with a 2x2 square. aim small miss small. The pie plate will be harder to group with but will pay off in the field. eventually move to 3D target for best results.
Skull
My bet is that most of the participants of your knife give-away were treestand WT hunters
I use to practice out to 90 yards with my compound just for fun. I could keep every shot inside a six inch circle most days. But I never would shot at any animal that far. For me in hunting situations, 40 yards is a long shot. The closer the better.
40% success seems low to me, but I have a pretty small core of hunting friends and don't hunt with a lot of other people so I might not be in the know on this. Personally I've bow hunted the last 30yrs without taking a single season off. I don't shoot a buck every yr but I've shot plenty of deer. I can remember 3 that I didn't find before the yotes got them. I consider anything that I didn't find in time to claim the meat a "wound" instead of kill (I did tag them). I figure my success rate on deer that I shoot at is well above 90%. Surely most bowhunters aren't taking that many shots beyond their efficiency zone are they? Do you guys really think bowhunters are wounding that many deer?
Bake I think you are WAY too humble. That's pretty good.
Look we are having the wrong conversation. This isn't about whether you can hit an animal but about the factors you can't control.
1. Animal. The species you are hunting makes a huge difference. Some animals are extremely jumpy and some are not. Either way, no one can predict what an animal will do.
2. Wind. Most of range shooting is pretty controlled. Hunting is not. Wind at 30 yards can be tricky but at 88? You better be a math genius.
3. Twigs, sticks, etc. Open field shots are easy but through brush, trees.
Those are just 3 things I can think of that the hunter has no control over. Not to enrage everyone but wounding rates for bowhunters isn't 0% but lower than 20%.
Take long range shots if you have some magical power to control everything or are a math genius and can calculate all the probabilities. The math says the further out you go the lower the success becomes.
If someone shoots animals at 88, 108 or 180 yards with a bow and kills them more power to them. In high school I could make 50% of my shots from just inside the half-court circle - I never took one in a game because there were much better shots.
Skull, you should set that contest up at the Total Archery Challenge this summer. Just be aware that you should plan to bring a lot of knives :) A shoot like that will really test your shooting ability, in my opinion it's the best 3D shoot in the country bar none.
"Skull My bet is that most of the participants of your knife give-away were treestand WT hunters"
+1
You mean you can't just drag the gear out of the closet a week or two before season, shoot a couple days at 20 yards and expect to knock things down at 80+ yards when you've never really shot much that far before? Well that sucks.....
ELKMANS POST,"Ended up being 93 yards and the sheep moved at 90 degrees and 3-4 feet before the arrow entered frontal in the arm pit and came same rear flank. With out the good fortune they had to get off a follow up shot that sheep would died a long painful death"
^Well if thats the case..... I stand by my first post above....bad body language= poor shot choice. He just got lucky.
"Here’s 3 shots at 90 from this summer. I believe that white mark is 6 inches across. And like I said above, I’m not a good shot"
I'm going to re-post this link....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOLmD_WVY-E
Pretty sure you're falling into the trap at the top end, where you're wildly overestimating the number of people who are just as good as you are...
Nice shootin'!
Notice I shoot at two different dots so I don’t ding up my arrows, lol. ;)
Notice I shoot at two different dots so I don’t ding up my arrows, lol. ;)
Like Bake I’m an average shot but I like to practice out to 100, past that my fletching hits my scope housing. Shooting 100 makes 30 seams like it’s 10. This is not my average “group” but my 100 group isn’t bad. I don’t have a computer generated sight tape or a lens to magnify my target yet shooting fair groups at 100 is not tough, even for a below average shot. If you can shoot a tight group at any range I see no problem shooting that same distance at an unaware animal. Animals can duck the shot or move at 20, what distance is ethical for all?
LOLOLOL get off of Lee's lap! If the animal moved 3 feet and he hit it, he missed by 3 feet!!! If he missed by 3 feet, that means he has a 6 foot group at 88 yards. Come on how can you guys support this chit? This is effin awesome!
I’m not supporting anything except people’s own ability to decide what’s too far and what isn’t. You ever missed an animal at less than 20? 30?
88 yds on a target on level ground is NOT the same as 88 yds in the mountains at a steep angle with the wind.
It’s virtually impossible to replicate the numerous different steep shot angles and distances for that long of a shot, especially where he lives in the Midwest.
I'm still digging inserts out of trees from 20 yards away lol. Bake.....I hear what your saying,use to shot from home plate to the CF fence and it was amazing how good I was. Then I get humbled @ 15 yards on a live animal...go figure
The ram moves away when he is hit with the first shot, looks like her runs/ walks out past a rock point that you can’t see behind from the camera angle or from Lees view. it then looks like there is a splice in the tape and the ram walks back into the original out crop. And then lee shoots again this time makeing a killing shot. How long from the first to the second shot .
To say something is ethical or unethical one must first understand the definition of ethics. Ethics is defined as making choices derived from our morals. Morals is what we feel is right and wrong (seems to be a personal thing). so to say that something is ethical or not is simply saying that your morals (believes) align (or don't align) with the act of someone else (who made it according to their personal believes). Now, we do have public morals (the believes of the mass) but that is never to say that all individuals of that mass agree in totality. Everyone hunts (or doesn't hunt) for their own reasons and motivations. How, when, where, and to what extent we hunt is all dictated by our personal motivations, which are in turn at least influenced by our personal morals, which may or may not be swayed by the morals of the masses. That said, to attempt to impose our beliefs, morals, ethical choices, motivations, etc. on another is simply that, an imposition. Does it make it right or wrong, only you can answer that for yourself as to attempt to answer that for someone else is once again imposing your system on another. Mankind has done this and will continue to do this until the end of time, seems to be how we are hardwired. What's it all mean, not a hill of beans. Lee will keep doing what Lee feels is right for him in any given situation, as will all the rest of us. Ultimately, we will each be swayed by what others think, or won't, but in the end, (for us bowhunters) when its time to draw back or not draw back, drop the trigger or not drop the trigger, it will be a personal choice that we will make and be held accountable (ultimately) to only ourselves. Some will say we will be held accountable to others, but really isn't that simply a personal choice we make. Lee, you made a shot, you killed your animal (period). Was it the way I would have done it, the shot I would have taken; WHO KNOWS? I wasn't there, I wasn't in that moment, I hadn't done everything it took to get there so I can't sit here an armchair quarterback the decision and deem it "right" or "wrong", and I believe (LOL) no one else can. (see there, now I am imposing my system on you!)
Yep, animals can humble you. Ask me sometime about the broadside relaxed zebra at 35 yards . . . . Or the broadside B&C elk that I completely lost my *&(^* on . . . .
That elk was one of the few times in my life where I completely lost the capacity for any rational thought whatsoever
Lee is an Earnhardt Jr fan so he probably prefers the 88 yard shot.
Nedly,
You need to learn to "contain them sagging man boobs" of yours!!! :)
Mark
Bake, you are too humble!
Man, some of you guys can really shoot! That is impressive. I never practice beyond 55, mostly due to room limitations. Don't think I could hit a dump truck at 100. Honestly, I am impressed. But, give me 18 or under, and I am fairly deadly. Of course, if a B&C animal was within that range I would fall apart as well:)
Bake - what were the chances of that target moving all of a sudden ? Flat yard or shooting really odd angles like in sheep hunting? Had you just hiked 5 hours up a mtn ? Were you wearing all your hunting clothes?
backyard shooting is one thing - real world shooting is different is all I'm saying
"You ever missed an animal at less than 20? 30?" Yes, less than 20 on rabbits with my recurve. I have missed a very calm whitetail doe at 29 yards with my compound because she ducked the string. I am proficient well past 30 yards at a stationary targets. I'm happy Lee and others can shoot dimes at 100 yards plus. I'm not sure I can see a dime that far. I'm happy his 3' miss on a nice ram worked out and he recovered it. Some of you will be happy that I am out of this conversation. I will follow it for the entertainment value but I'm out of breath.
Anytime I have to start doing calculations to account for the Coriolis effect, I figure that it's probably too far.
BUT, if they start making a rangefinder that can figure that all out for me, then I say "let 'er fly!"
Like my grandpa said, "When there's lead (or carbon!) in the air, there's hope in the heart!"
I too saw the Canada video where they shot a mulie in the butt and another in the neck. Both shots were a poke.
Kidding, of course. Congrats to Lee and everybody else who can do it. Seriously. My hat's off to them. I shoot a lot of arrows each year and I'm nowhere close to that good. All I know is that wounding an animal sucks, whether it's 8 yards or 88. Been there, done that. I'm all for doing anything I can do to minimize my risk of wounding an animal and not finding it and having that horrible feeling in my gut, so I TRY to limit myself to distances, conditions, etc that give me the best chance of having a positive outcome. Real-life hunting situations makes that a lot easier said than done, but I think that Lee and probably most of the guys on here (hopefully) would agree that we all share the same goal--quick clean kills and successful hunts and memories.
People have to face the fact some folks can just flat out shoot. I stayed in a little motel n NW Kansas a couple years ago and there was a guy who stayed a few rooms down who had lived in Kansas for 35 years and hunted almost everyday of archery. One day the during my hunt the wind was steady at 40 mph and gusts up to 70 mph. I hunted all of about an hour and said this is nuts a deer would have to be 3ft for me to hit him. About 4pm in pulls this guy(Lance) he has a beaufitul 150" ish Muley in the bed of his truck. I was like how far was the shot , he said around 48 yards. When I asked how the hell he hit him at that far in this heavy wind he said you shoot as much as possible and know your holds, then it is not a big deal!! I still think it was a lucky shot but maybe just maybe some folks are that good. I know of several guys who are just fat out great shots. Shawn
26 hours = 205 posts on what distance someone on TV killed a sheep with
13 days = 15 posts on a hunt offered for charity
we gotta love us don't we
"Ended up being 93 yards and the sheep moved at 90 degrees and 3-4 feet before the arrow entered frontal in the arm pit and came same rear flank. With out the good fortune they had to get off a follow up shot that sheep would died a long painful death." I didn't see the show, is this what really happened? That's great shooting? You guys are signing off on this?
I didn't see the show either but just noticed this. Is this true? Did the super excellent shot not actually hit where it was supposed to? What does this say about the comments like:
"well if you aren't good enough, you shouldn't take this shot, but this guy is THAT GOOD."
If the above is true, it sure as hell doesn't sound like it was a great shot. Hell, I can go out there and HIT a freakin' deer or elk at 100 yards! The idea isn't to just HIT THEM!
We really are our own worst enemy.
I could care less about an 88 yard shot. I just want to know why and how Nedly is getting away with not posting his recent ram hunt!
One good thing.... This thread resulted in the resurfacing of the 101-yard thread, which sucked me into watching a video of a bad shot somehow gone miraculously OK, which led to a video from Cameron Whatsisears, which at least allowed me to find out where the "keep hammering" thing came from.
That Cameron guy seems OK, seeing as he took a 30-ish yard shot and emphasized the importance of a quick, clean kill.
So if "keep hammering" means "hunt hard", I can work with that.... In this context, though, it sure sounded more like "keep shooting 'til you draw blood"....
Hope that doesn't make me too much of a DW....
What show? I’d like to see it. Sheep shows are the only hunting shows I’ll watch these days and it’s hard to find bow hunting ones.
I’m sure there’s a 1000 people that’ll say that shot was unethical. It’s not if you can make it and he obviously did.
Just for kicks I went out and took a shot cold at 88 yards. As I said above I hope I can get way closer in July!
Seriously, you guys can flat out shoot!
Tried to get wife to hold target and move it when she heard the bow go off, but she refused!
Habitat for Wildlife; I'm afraid your the one that doesn't get it.
Seeing one good shot on film doesn't establish a pattern. That is low statistical power. Anyone can make one long shot once. No one sees and no one would know if shots like that were taken, game was wounded and the tape erased. I can't say anyone knows better or not, but TV shows sell gear and 88 yards sure makes a bow look like a got-to-have piece of equipment. I'll bet a shot like that on TV didn't hurt sales of that particular bow. That was an excellent shot, but condoning ultra long range bowhunting with that shot being the only evidence in your pocket is not unlike a lottery winner telling people he knows about the best retirement plan in the world 'cause he saw it work once. Now is the point gotten? Also, a recurve and a longbow are not synonyms.
"Look we are having the wrong conversation. This isn't about whether you can hit an animal but about the factors you can't control.
1. Animal. The species you are hunting makes a huge difference. Some animals are extremely jumpy and some are not. Either way, no one can predict what an animal will do.
2. Wind. Most of range shooting is pretty controlled. Hunting is not. Wind at 30 yards can be tricky but at 88? You better be a math genius.
3. Twigs, sticks, etc. Open field shots are easy but through brush, trees.
Those are just 3 things I can think of that the hunter has no control over. Not to enrage everyone but wounding rates for bowhunters isn't 0% but lower than 20%. [ 16 % as I recall from the Camp Ripley survey]
Take long range shots if you have some magical power to control everything or are a math genius and can calculate all the probabilities. The math says the further out you go the lower the success becomes. [So was it correct he had to take TWO shots to do the job??]. Sounds like he was awfully lucky and 1-3 plus a number of others good bowhunters can think of affected the shot.
3-D , paper targets are not animals yes I believe ethics are universal its how you behave is your personal set of morals. This was probably too far of a shot, but it turned out well anyway. What about next time??? Nugent used to do the same thing on his videos, lost interest in his hunting exploits after I saw those.
I am not condoning anything. I would not take the shot because I know I could not perform at that yardage in flat Kansas. Add in the thin air, probably a lot of fatigue, steep inclination etc., Again I could not hit a dump truck.
I have never hunted Rams, goats etc. I am not capable of knowing what another person can accomplish in these conditions so I will not judge.
I have killed numerous whitetail with a bow. All but probably 6 or so shots were with my top pin. Only one time did I ever use my bottom pin. Two years ago I took a doe standing broadside head down feeding at 55 yards. I ranged her, that is the exact distance that pin is set for. I was in a blind, with solid flat floor, no wind. I drew just for practice. My pin was rock solid on her. I exhaled most of the way, gently pulled the trigger and knew on that day that doe was dead. Double lunged, saw her fall in the snow. I just knew it was right, that it was going to happen. No doubt, it was like practicing in my back yard.
Can experts do better than just an average Joe hunter like me? I believe so. Do I plan on ever taking a shot like that again? No. But I did not plan on it that day.
My first sub two minute half mile came the same way, I knew it before I came out of the blocks.
None of us were there, few here know Lee and his ability. Just because I cannot make that shot doesn't mean I can bash someone else for it. JMHO, that is all this is. Thanks.
Someone please confirm what 'long range' is again ?
yeah Tony, but he's a rock star, and well, we aren't supposed to challenge things that make us all look like clowns....................................
we're just not good enough to be in that crowd of "top shelf bowhunters", so we're simply just jealous.
Long range starts when one's mind begins to let doubt about the certainty of the shot creep into your confidence.
On one of the Meat Eater podcasts they were discussing this and Steve said something like, “if you take a shot and are surprised when you hit where you were aiming, then it was probably too long. You should never be surprised that you actually made the shot.”
That’s probably the best answer I’ve heard so far. With so many variables it’s impossible to agree on an acceptable distance. But whether ten yards or a hundred, one should expect to make the shot they take, and not just be throwing Hail Marys. Obviously, this is an individual decision.
My hat’s off to you guys with such great accuracy. I honestly can’t see a 2” mark at 100 yards, let alone hit it.
Woke up and my first thought was about this thread! Drank way too many PBRs last night!
I do practice shooting out to 100 yards. Never had the opportunity yet to release a follow up shot at this distance but I'll be ready!
A lot of threads above ........A lot of different perspectives.
A man in his prime , with eyes like an eagle , with arm muscles that feel like steel cable , and with nerves as calm as a pool of water that could pass as a mirror. A man in his prime who lets a hundred arrows fly from his bow daily in practice at those distances can make those kind of shots all day long.
Not to mention God didn't make us all equal. Some guys are just naturally gifted athletes.
Bill, I wasn't aware that you knew me so well! LOL. You forgot the handsome part;)
Good post!
ELKMANS POST,"Ended up being 93 yards and the sheep moved at 90 degrees and 3-4 feet before the arrow entered frontal in the arm pit and came same rear flank. With out the good fortune they had to get off a follow up shot that sheep would died a long painful death"______________________________________________
^Well if thats the case..... I stand by my first post above....bad body language= poor shot choice. He just got lucky.__________________________________________________
That is EXACTLY what happened Bruce. Watch the video it will be out there somewhere soon. I believe they are replaying the episode a couple more times this week. The ram moved so far before impact that Lee actually says "I missed it" in the video. The guide says "I'm pretty sure I seen blood". Guess it was good luck the species they were hunting was dead white. That was not an "archery sheep hunt", it was an "arrow killed ram" period. No more, no less.
I hesitated to share this but decided to..........I will be only cryptic enough to protect identities, but the facts are true.............
I have been in two camps with a super slam hunter. absolutely great guy. humble. fun. honest. self-deprecating. tells stories that hold your attention for hours. great family guy. fantastic person.
on the first hunt he got one with a perfect shot at 20 yards and then proceeded over the balance of the hunt to miss 2 and wound 3. 2 of the three were absolutely going to die and the third likely will. all at < 25 yards. on the last day he hit one 8 inches from the tail on a broadside shot walking at 15 and spined it. it went down and was finished off. on that hunt I personally witnessed all the shots except the one that he killed with a perfect shot at 20.
on the second hunt he missed 5 and wounded 1 and killed none. all under 25 yards. this is a super slammer and not just any super slammer. I only witnessed the wound on that hunt, none of the misses, but he spoke of the misses and the details.
point is if he came on here and posted about always getting to within 25 yards it would never cross anyone's mind that 25 yards, or 20, or based on the above even 15 is a questionable shot for this hunter.
bottomline................we don't know what anyone's effective range is so long as it is within the capability of the weapon itself unless we personally shoot with them and see them in action.
The irony is I never watch so called "hunting TV"... EVER. But I was going through the guide and I saw that it was a sheep hunt with a bow and thought "that's not a fat guy sitting in a tree" and DVRed it. I watch about one of these every two years and this is what I get! LMAO! Seriously funny. That is exactly why I won't support/watch/contribute to the destruction of our way of life, and our heritage. The rampant prostitution of nature for fame and the almighty dollar is wrong on a spiritual level, and will be the end of what was once one of the "purest" things on earth. NJMO
Greg S
Were you wearing your hunting clothes, after hiking up a mtn, was that flat ground or steep angles and what was the chances your target could move? was your heart beating fast and in the back of your mind the $25,000 you spent on that hunt all hung on that one 88 yard shot ?
shooting stationary targets on a comfortable shooting range is great its not the same as hunting
Casey, You may be right. I don't watch hunting shows and I don't stand in line at shows to get other hunter's autographs or take pictures with them. I haven't seen the video of this hunt and I wasn't defending this particular shot or the guy that made it.
I wish I had stated that before my last post. I got a little off topic , I believe a shot of 88 yards could be made ethically by a few hunters with good instincts and common sense. I despise hunting TV. I couldn't agree more with your last post. TV actually takes hunting and transforms it into something it is not. But , that's another thread.
Elkman, I don't agree with you on some things, that's for sure. But this one I completely agree with you.
Bou'bound,
Sincere question. What does that jackwagons misses at 25 yards have to do with guys taking shots at 90-100 yards, or more, on live animals? I hope you are not suggesting that because that guys missed a bunch at 25 yards, we should just conclude that bowshots at 25 yards on live animals are likely to have the same result as 90-100 yard bowshots on live animals.
The guy DID NOT make a good shot! The guy missed his mark by a bunch! And this is one of the guys that gets bragged up for having such mad skills!!!
I can’t not believe the saps on here bragging what a good shoot it was and that he is. He cripples it the first time when the ram moves before the arrow arrives and out of shear luck he gets another shot at. Something to be thankful for both ram and the hunter. I mean seriously I am not the most conservative bowhunter out there, I am pretty liberal with my shot placement and distance but let’s call a spade a spade. This wasn’t a good shot by any means.
I think all of this stuff is hilarious. Seriously its bow hunting once you release an arrow no matter what distance $hit can go wrong ! As far as being pure the lords of bowhunting used to loose many arrows at long ranges at game in the hail mary vane. They were trying to prove that bows could kill animals and were legit to hunt with so a few animals got wounded on the way ! I hunt with an outfitter that is thinking of reducing the number of bow hunts he sells because too many animals get wounded each year and lost compared to gun hunting. If you really want to complain you should complain that all forms of this primite hunting style should be banned to stop this outrageous carnage !
Lots of guys proving they can shoot well at 100yds......Ok?
Do you realize that your shooting ability on targets is only a very small factor when considering taking that shot?
[hint; Its not the money you spent on the hunt either- grin]
If shooting ability isn’t one of the biggest factors, what is?
Sure animal movement is a factor. Just as it is at 30 yards. Can a guy hold it together that’s also a factor at 30. Bottom line if you can do it at 30 on an animal and 130 on a target, you have nearly just as good of odds pulling off a clean 100 yard shot as you do at 30. Falling apart is just that regardless of distance, an animal moving can happen at any distance and possibly more so at 30.
I see a huge contradiction on this thread versus the “what is your longest shot “!
80 yard shot
80 yard shot
How about this Dall sheep Art Young shot at 80 yards? From Saxton Popes book--
"Young said to himself, "He will take one more look, then he will go. Now is the time to act." So nocking an arrow on the string he ran at full speed directly at the sheep, and when half way he saw the tip of his horns rise above the ledge and knew it was time to stop. He came to his shooting pose and waited, the arrow half drawn. Sure enough! Out walked the old fellow to the very edge of the parapet and gazed over. Off flew the arrow and in the twilight it was lost to vision, but he heard it strike and saw the ram wheel in flight. As it disappeared over the ridge Art followed at a run; reaching the top he peered cautiously about and saw the sheep at no great distance standing still with its legs spread wide apart. He knew by the posture that it was done for. So he went back to the valley and because of the distance from camp and the oncoming darkness he made a fire and "Siwashed it" or camped out in the open all night without blankets. In the morning he went after his trophy and found it near the spot last seen. It was a fine specimen. The arrow had pierced it from front to rear completely through and was lost; a center shot at eighty yards; a most remarkable bit of archery and hunting stratagem.
The idea is to learn and progress and BE BETTER than your predecessors...
A tip of the hat to Ground Hunter for tripping so many triggers with this thread. Well done! :)
Read this over the pat several days..... Just my thoughts, nothing else.
Foam is not flesh and blood. An animal moving at 20 yards is NOT the same as animal movement at 80,90, or 100 yards. Nor is a wind gust. At 20 yards, the 200 milliseconds it takes for an arrow to arrive is not going to make a difference at POI. I'm talking normal, head down, relaxed animal. At 80+ yards, I think the 1.5 seconds or so it takes the arrow to arrive the difference is exponential. That's my issue. And while the "shit happens" phrase is tossed around, I don't see a need (regardless of $$ spent) to flirt with Murphy. Often wondered if the TV hunters are going to eventually destroy hunting as we know it.
And if someone asks me what the maximum range we should be shooting at, I haven't a clue.
GF- that's a great little 5-minute video you posted (
Dunning-Kruger Effect). My favorite quote:
"When arguing with a fool, first make sure the other person isn't doing the same thing." My favorite quote is from Clint Eastwood: “A MAN’S GOT TO KNOW HIS LIMITATIONS!”
Apparently Lee DOES! ;-)
Great shot and great ram!
SO LEE ACTUALLY hit it with two consecutive arrows, one at 88 and one at 93? tht takes luck out of the equation as the odds of back to back "lucky" shots in exponentially far greater than a single lucky shot.
" This wasn’t a good shot by any means."
C'mon, read thru the posts, he's some kind of expert like Levi Morgan. Never mind that shot would have missed the whole target face on a field course.
lucky for him he was shooting at a ram and not a target face on a field course then.
It’s TV ! Who really knows how many arrows were really launched.
The same medium that brought us “ Bewitched” And “ I Dream of Jeannie”.
Most of us did dream of Jeannie;)
Seems like some ruts never end.
Jeesh, I was referring to the magic of TV !
You guys crack me up
don't let any of this distract you from the fact that Lee Lakoski got away with poaching. the Manworship of poachers in bowhunting today is quite disgusting.
Lou, I am ignorant. How is this hunt or these long shots poaching? Like I said, I have never done this so have no idea what the regs are. Thanks.
Hab, he shot 2 deer, had the correct licenses but put the wrong one on one of the Deer. "poaching" is quite a stretch for improper tagging
unhuggeth le nutteths
if i shoot a deer that i do not have a tag for, is that not considered poaching? even if i did it at 88 yards?
It's ok for Lee to poach, he's gotta hot wife and a big wallet.
Funny how an 88 yard shot morphed into poaching. This incident was discussed in the past here when it came out and it sounded like an honest mistake. Take it however you want and judge for yourself, but at least post his side of the story.
This was his reply on facebook: I apologize, I made an honest mistake. I inadvertently put the wrong tag on a deer I shot. I went home and registered it like we're supposed to and that's what flagged it. Everyone involved realized it was an honest mistake but we also realize that we have to be treated the same as anyone else and own up to the mistake. I had the valid tag so nothing about the taking of the deer was illegal, just in the tagging of it. Let me assure you that I respect these animals more than anything and purposely taking one illegally in any way shape or form would not interest me in the least. I, as an Iowa resident and landowner, can take 3 bucks a year. In the 14 years that I've lived here I've only used all 3 tags 4-5 times. This year, like most others, the season ended with an unused Iowa tag in my pocket. We also own land in Illinois and Missouri and I didn't shoot a deer in either of those states either. The point is that having deer tags is not (and has never been) an issue and I'd have absolutely no reason to purposely or knowingly take a deer illegally in any manner, I certainly have valid tags for them. Everything we do is on film and put out there for everyone to see, we're certainly not hiding anything. I do realize the position we are in and that we need to be above things like this and for that I sincerely apologize. So, to all our friends and fans all I can say is that it was an honest mistake, I'm sorry and it won't happen again. Lee
Talking about another man's wife & wallet is pretty childish....People need to grow up!
I’m not a fan. I’ve seen the show and I made sure to dvr it so I could watch closely when I had some time this weekend.
But first with regard to the “poaching” that has been brought up;
The guy has a LOT going on. And he has a LOT of tags to keep track of...I believe it was an honest mistake and a minor one. For goodness sake, on the sheep hunt show this concerns, the guy didn’t even know his PASSPORT was expired until his wife checked him in. That’s major! He made a mistake and owned up to it. There are many, many, much worse than Lee Lakosky. Lots of jealousy on display here.
Back to the 88 yards; I’m pretty sure I saw another arrow sticking out of the rocks during the final shot they showed, so it took at least 3...
FWIW, I hunt both KS and MO. I am a resident of KS. I purchase 6 deer tags (5 are antlerless only, 1 any deer) at least one fall turkey, my general hunting and a furbearer licenses. Spring Turkey tag as well.
As a non-resident of MO I purchase my non-resident archery license which includes 2 turkey and 2 any deer tags. I also purchase between 1-2 non-resident archery tags. I purchase a rifle tag and an antlerless rifle tag so I can continue to bow hunt in rifle season. I also purchase a furharvester tag so I can shoot coyotes that happen by while on deer stand. Spring Turkey tag as well.
I keep all of this in a water proof wallet that is inside my pack. Both states require licenses be in your possession while hunting. This is only for two states. My wallet has four different "folders" that are labelled: KS Tags, KS License, MO Tags, MO license. I use a highlighter on each license to show exactly what it is for.
When I took my first KS doe this year I started to fill out my KS Any Deer tag and then caught myself. Stuff happens in the field, I was excited and thinking about field care of the animal and not being worried about legalities because I had all of the tags necessary. Simple, honest mistakes happen, at least to me they do. I don't consider what happened to Lee poaching at all.
Let me add, I do my wallet that way because when I first started hunting both states I filled out a tag for one state that was for the opposite state I was hunting. Had to scratch all of the information off and get the right tag. I was mad as it was cold out. My fingers were numb and my pen would not work.
I like now that both states have all of this information available electronically. Should help catch human errors and act accordingly.
Out of PBR, my Raiders bringing Chucky back sent me on a bender! I'll be back for more..."As Bowsite Turns".
Habitat for Wildlife - As a fell KS guy I'm curious, how many of those KS tags did you fill this yr?
All of them. Have filled all of them every year since they have allowed multiple tags. Always by bow.
Density is not uniform across this big state of ours. Honestly, I easily could have killed more than twice that amount.
Michael Pearce can confirm this.
Just watched the rerun last night. Nothing to see here (or discuss), move along.
Most people don't look good wearing green...
Ground hunter: The second finishing shot was in a completely different location much closer distance. I'm guessing a fair time later as well.
I agree with Bowfreak on "acceptable yardage". It's ridiculous! That changes from person to person. And each knows his or her "acceptable distance".
As an internet onlooker, none out there hardly knows what anothers "work ethic" is or what anothers skill set is and are quick to bash another based on his/hers own limitations. Personally I find that both laughable and hypocritical......
At that point assuming everything is accounted for, isn't it all about shot placement? The woulda coulda of an animal taking a step also happens at 5 yards. Does it not?
At 5yds, an animal starts to take a step, the arrow will still hit basically where you aim. At 88ys, not so much.
The argument has never been whether the person can make the shot or not. Once that arrow leaves the string, control of the situation is lost, regardless if you're a world-class archer or not. No one can predict when an animal's going to move. The longer the shot, the more time for bad things to happen. That's where some of us have an issue with 80-100yd shots on animals.
I’m still confused as to why - assuming that the reports that the ram moved 3-4 FEET while the arrow was in flight..... WHY do people continue to state that he “made” that shot. Had the ram moved in the opposite direction, he would have missed by 6’-8’.
It obviously does happen some times that an animal moves into the path of an errant shot - they move OUT of the path of well-aimed shots all the time, don’t they?
Just don’t get why this guy is being credited with incredible prowess when it appears that he just stepped in it and got lucky as hell...
Or did I miss something?
GF, my understanding is the same as yours. If, in fact, it actually took three shots, well, I guess we shouldn't be bragging about "he made a great shot"
Lee got "very lucky". Period, end of story. But you can bet your bottom dollar that if he hadn't "got lucky" you would have never seen that ram lay there and suffer for countless hours, thanks to the smoke and mirrors and bull $h!t that qualifies as "hunting TV". If you stop watching, they stop being relevant and disappear, and our way of life can go back to at least being "real" again...
Omg!!! You guys have whipped this dead horse enough to bring it back to life!!!!!!! The dude made the shot ,the ram was killed and retrieved!!!!! Haters gonna hate !!! If your own personal range is 25 yards on a white tail under a feeder ,SO BE IT!!! Some guys can pull it off ,SOME CANT!!! END OF STORY!!! " THE ANIMAL SUFFERED"?? That usually what happens when you poke a hole in it with an arrow , it can't feel good!!
He missed by 4 FEET, that is NOT making the shot. Period. End of story.
Jeeeeeeez-USS!
If you “pull it off” ONLY because the animal just happened to move 3 or 4 FEET while the arrow was airborne, you still get credit for skill instead of luck????
Damn. When I grow up, I wanna be a Millennial. This Busting Your Ass stuff I grew up with is just too damn much work.
I just laugh.............
a butcher with a bow make a lucky 20 yard shot and it is considered by strangers to be skill and a guy who hunts for a living makes a far longer shot and it is considered by strangers to be luck.
It takes ZERO skill to get within 90 yards of almost any animal, especially animals with little or to no pressure, and or animals in an archery only season. On the other hand, getting to full draw within 20 yards of a wild free ranging animal is far more difficult than getting stupid lucky on a 90 yard shot on an animal that has obviously busted you, and knows your there, but just doesn't have enough fear of you at that distance to exit the situation...
When you are done laughing, please explain how missing by 4 feet is "making" the shot.
‘Bou -
If you just wanna be that guy’s Fan-Boy, you’re doing just fine. Rave on, Dude! But if you want to have an intelligent discussion, you’ve gotta stop just making shit up.
Who EVER said that a guy who gets Stupid Lucky at 20 is any less lucky than a guy who gets Stupid Lucky at 88????
Assuming they were equally (and justifiably) confident in their ability to make the shot, I (and any other organism capable of basic logic) would say that both were equally Lucky.
But the guy who waited for the 20-yarder is arguably quite a bit less STUPID for having put a whole lot less trust in his Luck. How well-founded his confidence might have been is a different matter, but you show me someone who has no business attempting a 20-yard shot and I will agree with you that he is plenty Stupid if he does.
I’m not saying that longer shots can’t be taken by those with AMPLY demonstrated skills, but when you start talking about more than half a second of hang time (give or take - no absolutes) , the Archery skills take a back seat to a whole long list of other considerations.
And in this case, you have to back up to the shot itself and recognize that this was not a perfectly good shot gone bad, but a COMPLETE MISS (bad shooting - the equivalent of missing by a solid foot at 30 yards or 8” at 20 - calls the Archery skills into question) which was miraculously salvaged by the animal’s unexpected movement (which calls into question the shooter’s judgement on the rest of the list).
But I’m prepared to give the guy the benefit of the doubt and say that he might not have attempted that shot if he weren’t there filming a TV show; there has got to be ridiculous pressure - not just to fill those tags and finish every episode with the Money Shot, but specifically to take longer shots than the competition’s Hero as some kind of “proof” of the superiority of his equipment.
I just can’t believe how many people on this thread don’t seem to have any clue that the whole Sheep-Show had nothing to do with hunting.
Just because you can doesn't mean you should. As mentioned, if it was a bad hit it never would have seen the light of day unless they found it hours or days later then it would have been the old, "hit it a little further back than I wanted "lol. Being on video it just gives the goobers a reason to try it themselves and we know the majority of those shots aren't going to end well.
Lol love the "hangtime" verbage. Makes me think "Mathews" ;)
Lol love the "hangtime" verbage. Makes me think "Mathews" ;)
Hahaha
Good ole bou, comments on every thread but those that pertain to him...
"but when you start talking about more than half a second of hang time (give or take - no absolutes) , the Archery skills take a back seat to a whole long list of other considerations." Read this a few more times if you still don't get it.
I talked with a sheep guide a few years back at one of the hunting shows. He basically said with modern equipment now a lot of the bow kills are shot past 50 yards and if the shot is off in the open terrain it is pretty easy to get a second shot. That's just the way it is and if Lee's Ram took a step and he gut shot it he still would have recovered it. With that kind of money at stake most hunters are going to take any shot that they might make. It's just another reason why scoped crossbows are being allowed into archery season, it is not a close range sport anymore.
It is a close range sport overall.
I'l bet at least 80% of all big game taken in the US annually are whitetail deer and 95% of those are out of trees at "close range". Yes there are some species and some areas where a small (relatively) number of animals are shot at "beyond tree stand distance", but it is a drop in the bucket when speaking about "the sport of Bowhunting" as a whole.
So everyone saying Lee's shot was unethical, too far, stupid, or whatever. My question for you is what should Lee's ethical shot distance be? I'm really curious if anyone will answer that question.
Sean Let me help answer the question you asked above.
one's effective range is normally calculated by the following formula:
take the hunters age divided by years experience (with bow) which gives a ratio and that ratio is then multiplied by the cost of the hunt (in this case $24,500). that amount is then divided by the grain weight of ones' arrows which in Lee's case is 490 grains. the product of that calculus is increased by the % let off of the hunters first bow (in this case Lee's first bow had a left off of 50%) See the calculations below:
in Lee's case
49 years old / 38 years hunting = 1.289 age to experience ratio
1.289 x the cost of the hunt at $24,500 = 31,380
31,380 / 490 grains = 64 yards
Add back 50% for the % let off of his first bow and you have an effective laksosky range of 96 yards (derived by the formula 64 x 1.50 = 96).
So it is clear he was within his effective range by 8 yards when he shot at only 88.
I hope this helps clarify the question and some of the non-fact based posts that are circulating above on this very important topic.
Clearly it is less than 88 yards, because he missed by 4 feet, which means his group at 88 yards is 8 feet. So, lets say at any given time he can walk out and do 3 arrows into a 6" paper plate, what ever that range is, would be his max ethical range. Missing by 4 feet is unethical, stupid, etc., I don't care who you are.
Lee's ethical shot range, well that depends primarily on on Lee's ethics. How concerned is Lee about a bad hit?
Sean D Folks are always trying to push their own ethics on others. Particularly when they "can't" do what someone else can do. Guys should worry about themselves instead and be happy for those who put meat in the freezer. After all, that's what hunting is about.....
Great answer Bou! Now I have a formula to figure my max distance. Glad somebody else was able to figure out what distance was good for me!
Wow now we even have a formula for longshot I never knew that Thanks for the info
Got to know your own limitations and stick to it.
