Garmin Xero Bow Sight
WY the future
Moose
Contributors to this thread:
DonVathome 19-Feb-18
HUNT MAN 19-Feb-18
Trial153 19-Feb-18
NoWiser 19-Feb-18
elk yinzer 19-Feb-18
DonVathome 19-Feb-18
TreeWalker 19-Feb-18
pahoyt 19-Feb-18
Topgun 30-06 19-Feb-18
Trial153 19-Feb-18
WapitiBob 20-Feb-18
Quinn @work 20-Feb-18
jims 20-Feb-18
IdyllwildArcher 20-Feb-18
Dotman 20-Feb-18
IdyllwildArcher 20-Feb-18
Dotman 20-Feb-18
MichaelArnette 20-Feb-18
DonVathome 20-Feb-18
njbuck 20-Feb-18
squirrel 20-Feb-18
TXHunter 20-Feb-18
NoWiser 20-Feb-18
goyt 20-Feb-18
ground hunter 20-Feb-18
pav 20-Feb-18
Bowriter 20-Feb-18
TreeWalker 20-Feb-18
TXHunter 20-Feb-18
Treeline 20-Feb-18
DonVathome 20-Feb-18
NoWiser 20-Feb-18
wyobullshooter 20-Feb-18
sdkhunter 20-Feb-18
Topgun 30-06 20-Feb-18
jdee 20-Feb-18
BULELK1 21-Feb-18
From: DonVathome
19-Feb-18
I do not think anyone will disagree WY is really taking advantage of the NR. $300 for points for just sheep and moose.

Food for thought. Several years ago WY sent out a questionnaire I and a couple other NR I know received it. It was apparent this stuff was coming. It was basically asking how much would you pay for a point before you dropped out? A tag? etc.

I apply for over 50 tags a year and, with the exception of bison in AK (I got a bison in WY) and Vermont moose (I drew). I have never dropped out of anything. I will drop WY sheep and moose as soon as I draw.

For those on the fence. This is NOT the end. They will raise point fees. They will raise tag fees. Also the plan to hold out for a mid or lower tier unit will not work. Many going for top units will drop down so they can draw and be done. There will not be point creep there will be point leap. Fewer and fewer tags for moose will not help.

WY is smart, they are doing a great job of running a business. Smart moves but I do not think it is fair.

What's next? has anyone on the fence considered what WY will do next?

Besides raising app, point and tag fees they WILL cut preference point tags. They know the internet and magazines (to some extent) are tipping off hunters to realistic odds. Guys are NOT going to start spending, or continue spending hundreds of dollars a year for applying with the dream of waiting for the hundreds of guys ahead of them to die or quit applying and draw.

WY will cut the max points tags to 50% or 25%. No question about it.

Keep this in mind as you make your decisions.

Good luck,

DonV Oh

From: HUNT MAN
19-Feb-18
I remember a story of you shooting a Wyoming moose already.

From: Trial153
19-Feb-18
I will be out shortly of for both moose and sheep. No way I catch up and 165 each for a point, plus fronting the tag fee for a less then 1% draw is just throwing good money after bad. It’s not even a question of being able to afford it is more about the fact that if I stay in I know I am making a poor decision. My whole life I been training myself to try to make the correct decision regardless of the outcome. In this I am forcing myself to make the incorrect decision. I need to drop out.

From: NoWiser
19-Feb-18
Next will be reducing NR tag allocation to 10% for moose and sheep.

From: elk yinzer
19-Feb-18
I'm fine with supply and demand jacking up those tags. Not everyone gets to shoot a moose. I am done applying to states with systems that create point creep though. Just have better ways to spend my money and I am too young to have gotten in at the ground floor. Not ok with outfitter welfare. I guess to the extent states manipulate trophy versus opportunity to manipulate the market that hacks me off a bit too.

From: DonVathome
19-Feb-18
agree elk yinzer business is great with supply and demand but most hunting is on federal land so.......

From: TreeWalker
19-Feb-18
I expect the Special Tag for Elk/Deer/Pronghorn will flip from 40% of NR tags to 60%. The 40 to 60 flip will make up for the revenue loss by halving the NR allocation from 20% down to 10% for Sheep/Moose/Goat/Bison. WY is about to lose 100s of NR Moose and Sheep applicants and 1000s of NR Elk/Deer/Pronghorn applicants. The Moose applicant pool shrinkage will be apparent this year and next. This year will see the lower point, older guys bail. Next year will be lower point, younger guys that see the point leap when so many Point Builders suddenly are putting in for actual hunts and takes 19 or 20 to draw a crappy unit.

The Elk/Deer/Pronghorn takes a bit longer as the Point Builders need a couple of years to burn through 2 or 3 species. Then they bail. Economy will soften and that always has an effect as hunters lose jobs or homes so sending $100s away to WY for points is not a priority.

The wealthy hunters love seeing prices soar. Is a rounding error to the total cash outlay to apply in 10 or more states out West. Even the cost of the tag is a rounding error for those guys. However, no matter how much money you have in your pocket there are some hunters that are not fond of seeing tag allocations cut. Will upset some enough to write off WY out of principle. NM gave a haircut to NR allocation and has been a factor years later. MT raised prices but demand came back as economy got better.

WY can live off 1%ers for Sheep/Moose/Goat/Bison. There are only a 200 or so tags total for NR for those 4 species. The Elk/Deer/Pronghorn situation is much different and you need Joe Sixpack to buy up 1000s of NR tags of which some are now over $1000. Good luck with that WY. Maximizing revenues is a crappy way to run a F&G. Do you know the pressure that arises when winter kill hurts a herd but costs have gone up 5% - 10% since last budget? Team players know how to get in line and okay a "moderately" aggressive tag allocation (wink wink nod nod) and they will. Quality of the outdoor experience will fall. Even wealthy hunters want a quality outdoor experience.

From: pahoyt
19-Feb-18
I feel that a lot of people are thinging the same about getting out. So maybe I’m not the smartest but, I’m going to stay in. Wyoming was the first state I bought pts for. So, I need to stay in cause it’s still my best chance of getting a tag the way I understand?

From: Topgun 30-06
19-Feb-18
I think Don should go jump in the lake with all his gloom and doom about Wyoming! It's the most friendly state to NR hunters that there is and no other state is even close to all the tags that go to NRs other than possibly OTC CO elk tags and they make that state's seasons look like one big pumpkin patch! He already posted this same garbage on another thread and now starts this one with all his whining and opinions/predictions so he must have a lot of extra time to find things to gripe about and maybe should go volunteer to read to the school kids or perform some other charitable work to fill in his hours. FYI Don and others, Wyoming is no different than any other western state and is in the ballpark with it's various fees other than a couple PP fees and the crazy increase on Bison tags. Other than that they aren't any different in needing increasing monies each year to do what they are mandated to do and most of it will come from NRs just like all the other states. I don't know how he comes up with a lot of the junk he does because it's all conjecture and opinion on his part to put it bluntly. He has his opinions that I feel are incorrect and that is just MHO! Also, for you guys talking about Wyoming losing applicants I just read on another site from a trusted resident member of that site that this year there were 900 more applicants for elk licenses than last year!!! Another member on that and this site that keeps great records also stated that there hasn't been one year in all the years that he's been keeping them that applicant numbers haven't increased. So much for the gloom and doom you guys are putting out.

From: Trial153
19-Feb-18
Unfortunately when we reach the point of negative returns in hunting WY won’t be the only state to feel it.

From: WapitiBob
20-Feb-18
As TG said, 900 app increase for nr elk in 2018. If nr are gonna leave they better kick it up a notch.

From: Quinn @work
20-Feb-18
Could a majority of the 900 more apps this year be guys applying for tags instead of points so they can get out of the game? Just a thought.

From: jims
20-Feb-18
One thing that may bite Wyo residents in the buttocks is nonres are paying a larger and larger proportion of the total tag and fee revenues. It would be like shooting themselves in the foot if they cut nonres tags and issue a higher % of tags to Wyo res....especially with the gloomy economy how it is. That's about the only positive thing I can see for higher nonres tag/fee prices.

I dropped out of the Wyo sheep draw around 15 years ago! It was easy for me to compute how many tags are issued and how many guys were ahead of me. I was lucky to draw a moose tag many years ago....and then promptly drop out of the moose draw. I saw the writing on the wall for Wyo moose. Gobs of bears/wolves fewer and fewer tags = more years to draw. I took my son out of the Wyo moose draw around 10 years ago.

20-Feb-18
"Wyoming is no different than any other western state and is in the ballpark with it's various fees other than a couple PP fees and the crazy increase on Bison tags."

With all due respect, that's not true. It costs $424 to apply for Moose, Sheep, Elk, PH, and deer in WY - and that's just points, that's not including app fees. It's closer to $500 with app fees that are also non-refundable.

Averaged out with using a hunting license for two years, I can apply for 7-8 species in Utah for about $100/yr. Colorado I can now apply for the same amount for even less now. Nevada costs about $200/yr to apply for 5 species and AZ is about the same. WY is far more expensive now and that's not adding in the money I'm losing by borrowing them so much cash.

That said, I disagree that the elk/deer/PH apps are going to change much. You can still have a reasonable hunt with just a few points for those 3 species.

And I agree that WY is still the place to hunt. It's a great state with great animals and they are very generous with the total tags given to NRs. The only issue is the ridiculous price of PPs and a broken PP system for certain species.

I also guess that not enough people will drop out to make a difference based on the increase in cost for WY to actually lose money - yet. Maybe someday, but I think enough will hang on.

From: Dotman
20-Feb-18
I was going to start building deer and elk pts in WY, but the increase turned me off. WY residents have to be liking these increases in prices.

20-Feb-18
An elk tag in NV costs $1200 for a NR. Some things are worth it. With the yearly increase that CO has, an OTC CO elk tag will soon cost what a WY tag costs at the new price. WY elk tags cost close to what it cost a NR to hunt white tail in Iowa. It's still worth it.

From: Dotman
20-Feb-18
Think I’d rather hunt MT then WY though.

20-Feb-18
Meanwhile in Colorado...soon to be the hardest state to draw

From: DonVathome
20-Feb-18
WY does have a lot of opportunity for nonresidents. I have hunted there far more than any other state except New Mexico.

To apply and build points across the board Wyoming cost more than twice as much as any other state. That is not even close to being the same. Would you pay twice as much for your car or your house?

I am very lucky and worked hard and was able to leave the workforce almost a decade ago. I do like increased prices and. Face because it increases my drawings. That said what Wy is doing is simply not right in my opinion.

In Wyoming I have had three mule deer tags two antelope tags two bull elk tags and sure third this year a cow bison tag and three cow elk tags.

30-06 just to be clear you think Wy is being fair to nonresidents?

Also as mentioned above I also agree they’re going to put more tags in the special draw.

I feel bad for the guys who have been priced out of Wyoming. I wish it was something to do but they’re truly is not. When they raise sheep points from seven dollars to $100 only half the guys dropped out. That meant they made seven times as much money for half the work! That is a far cry from hurting themselves in fact they helped themselves! pun intended

I have a good friend who is very nice guy and lives in the Dakotas. He was looking at buying land in Wyoming that had elk tags and stopped in to talk to the local game warden. When the game warden found out he was a nonresident he flat out told him he would not give landowner tags to nonresidents! I had a game warden flat out tell me he didn’t think I should bow hunt in the evenings and if I shot an elk got it and left it overnight and a grizzly bear claimed that he would give me a ticket for wanton waste.

Considering they get 80% of their revenue from nonresidents this just does not sit right with me.

From: njbuck
20-Feb-18
The future is not bright to draw a moose tag in Wyoming, but honestly what other option does someone have if they want to try to hunt a Shiras moose? Short of buying a land owner tag in Utah what can one do? I guess put all your hope into Idaho?

From: squirrel
20-Feb-18
dang I remember when I cursed their greed for charging me $7 a point but sucked it up and paid it... hurt tho! Got a couple of moosies and a sheepie and got outa there, perfect timing...

From: TXHunter
20-Feb-18
WY is not any worse than many other states. AZ, ID, WA, OR, CA and one or two others require that you buy a hunting license to even apply. Cost: $150-200.

And most of those states allocate 10% or less tags to NRs and have sheep and/or moose odds that are worse than Wyoming.

It’s not WYs or any other states’ fault that there is more demand than supply for top tier animals like sheep, moose, mountain goat, and bison. That’s just the way it is.

Yes, they are monetizing the resource. So what? If they didn’t monetize it there would still be only a few tags to draw. Newsflash: not everyone is going to get to hunt the premier species - no matter if the cost to apply is $5 or $200.

There are a thousands of people every year who are willing to pay $100 or so for a chance at a random draw sheep/moose/mountain goat tag. No one is holding a gun to their head. By doubling the app fee WY is making an effort to actually make the PP pool relevant again by weeding people out. Is that a sin? IDK - I guess it depends on your outlook. People can choose to continue to pay the freight for a small chance to draw or not. Their choice. Just like people can choose to pay the freight or not for a million other things in life.

Whining about it isn’t going to magically make more animals or tags available.

From: NoWiser
20-Feb-18
Lucky to be born when you were, squirrel. Those of us born in the 80's or later never had a chance. Luckily, I got my moose in Minnesota. I'll never hunt sheep, but that's fine.

From: goyt
20-Feb-18
Unfortunately this is a case where everyone is right. I think that the important take away is that it cost a lot to apply and most people will not draw in there lifetime for sheep and moose. If you do not draw in the bonus round and you are not young and stay healthy longer than others you will not draw. Some people will draw a random tag and they will tell the rest of us to stay with it because they drew. Most of us will not draw. Now WY does treat NRs well as far as the number of tags issued and that is all they can do as far as providing opportunities. It is up to us to decide if we want to pay for the chance to draw. Hopefully threads like this will help us make informed decisions.

20-Feb-18
jims had said it correctly,,,, I love Wy, could easily live there, just prefer more water, so I like the UP,,,,, with that said, both Wy and Mt Fish and Game is supported by the licenses and tags etc,,,,, they are being carried by the NR hunter, because they refuse to increase resident costs,,,,,,, That is their right, they run the state, the way they feel is good, but their Game Depts. are not doing well, and will do worse, as funds get fewer, if they price the average hunter out.....

The very wealthy hunters, can not bail them out, they need average joe, spending money out there,,,,, the local merchants want that income,,,,, NR hunters spend money in the state............

I was lucky to hunt sheep in the 60's and 70's, and actually go where Jack O Connor suggested,,, he must be rolling over in his grave, talking to Fred Bear in heaven and Coach Lombardi, saying "What the hell is going on down there"

From: pav
20-Feb-18
I was fortunate to draw WY moose. Bailed on WY sheep many years ago. The elk, deer and antelope point/tag fees are not out of line IMO....so WY will continue to receive my dollars for those species.

From: Bowriter
20-Feb-18
And so, the question remains, how much will you pay before you drop out. Ever been to an auction? As I have said, many times, we are heading toward the European Hunting Model. Only the rich and landed get to hunt.

From: TreeWalker
20-Feb-18
"Yes, they are monetizing the resource. So what? If they didn’t monetize it there would still be only a few tags to draw. Newsflash: not everyone is going to get to hunt the premier species - no matter if the cost to apply is $5 or $200."

Should a state be able to monetize everything to maximize revenue? Or, are there certain things where society is better for having a "flat" playing field where the most people can participate?

Univ. of Wyoming could triple tuition costs and still get 1/3 or more of the current students enrolled so why not? Only so many parking spots so why not charge 3x as much per space during peak demand? How about a Regular and Special license plate where the Special can drive faster but costs 50% more to buy the plate? Charge fees to access library since only so many books and PCs in there. Might as well charge more for certain lunch hours at the local high school.

All of those items I mentioned involve an item where we collectively paid to create the roads or schools or library and to maintain them but if really want to apply the WY F&G monetization model then need to change things up a bit.

Sure, the privileged will get to jump ahead of most of your neighbors but, you know, is not the fault of the rich guy that he has a lot more money can throw at a sheep or moose application. Is probably God's desire we make it easier for the wealthy to enjoy hunting WY's wildlife. No need to have blue collar types out there shooting the King's game. Those people need to learn their place. Is certainly not sheep hunting. Let them hunt cake.

From: TXHunter
20-Feb-18
I understand what you are saying and acknowledged it in my post.

You don’t seem to acknowledge my point, however.

If demand exceeds supply, someone will be left out. Money is commonly the deciding factor on that score in a capitalist society.

You can get as snideful as you want trying to make it a “blue collar” vs. “white collar” issue. There’s some truth to that of course. Just like there’s truth in the fact that not everyone can drive a new King Ranch F250 every year or two (or ever). By the same token, not everybody can hunt sheep or moose every year or two (or ever).

The “King’s England” analogy is BS - there are thousands of hunting opportunities for all every year. Just not for sheep or moose because there are not very many sheep or moose.

These sheep/moose threads make a lot of conservative guys sound like whining socialists - which is always amazing to me.

From: Treeline
20-Feb-18
Sure wish I could have drawn many years ago for a lot of the states that I apply in!

Have been lucky in a few drawings and have shot a moose in Wyoming. Definitely out for moose in WY this year. Just not lucky enough to pull that sheep tag and get out 10 years ago...

Definitely annoying when various G&F departments keep changing the rules when you are in "too deep to quit" and right on the cusp of getting one of those tags. Really sucks when you are sitting just behind the curve for 10 to 20 years but still in far better shape than guys just getting started.

Raising the fees so high in Wyoming may bite them when no one will get in at the ground floor buying points any more.

Heck, some of the lucky guys here in Colorado have been able to shoot 3 sheep and 3 goats! I am just not that lucky :(

From: DonVathome
20-Feb-18
I plain do think it is right. I will stay in until I draw moose and sheep. I do not think any other state cost more then 1/2 as much to apply. I do not think I pay over $140 for a license anywhere. Moose and sheep points and app fees are $330 I believe. I but points for two others and myself for elk plus lope and deer..........

Goyt hit the nail on the head. I am trying to keep people informed and realistic. I am being honest. if it helps me get a tag a yer sooner all the better.

Top end units will be within my reach in 1/2 the time it would have taken.

From: NoWiser
20-Feb-18
And then when they drop the NR quota to 10% you'll be back to being screwed.

20-Feb-18
TXHunter, never thought I’d agree with a Texan, but IMO, your posts are spot on. ;-)

From: sdkhunter
20-Feb-18
I've got many regrets of tags/points that I stopped buying over the years but in a rare situation because of cost, I'm sure glad that I never started buying sheep or moose points in WY.... I'm fine with their other species, costs etc - but for what they are now charging, how many tags are available, and how they allocate the tags - I do feel for the people that feel like they had the rug pulled out from under them.... They are going to have to start including a bottle of snake oil for new moose and sheep applicants - that way they will at least get something in their lifetime for their donations.... It will be interesting to see what happens to moose and sheep applicant numbers over the next few years..

From: Topgun 30-06
20-Feb-18
From: wyobullshooter 20-Feb-18 TXHunter, never thought I’d agree with a Texan, but IMO, your posts are spot on. ;-)

He certainly was spot on and said almost exactly what I've mentioned about Wyoming. There is no other state that comes close to it as far as NR opportunity for close to the same prices as the other western states, at least when you're talking about elk, deer, and antelope that most people want to hunt. Yes, for sheep, moose, goats and Bison the prices for PPs and license are high, but most states are and there just aren't the number of animals to justify many more tags than are now offered. Thus unless you have a ton of money and plan to be able to live and hunt when you're 100 you might have a one in 50 chance at a tag! I do have to say that Don appears to be just a little hypocritical when he bad mouths Wyoming and it's prices, etc. and then turns right around and seems to say that he doesn't care because it's actually helping him draw tags with the money he has available and all the time to hunt since he's retired.

From: jdee
20-Feb-18
I love Wyoming and hope everyone draws their tags someday but putting in for my wife, myself and two grandkids has me and my families hunting in WY coming to an end. Cost is to much buying all the points now every year and the tags are getting further apart . You start buying points one year then 10 years down the road they change the game , just like AZ did. If I had all the money back I’ve spent on points I could buy a new King Ranch F 250 . It is what it is, think I’ll just stay here and hunt in NM.

From: BULELK1
21-Feb-18
I too just love hunting/hiking/exploring in Wyoming.

Sure, every state is getting pricey but it is my main form of entertainment and recreation.

3 1/2 hour drive from my home and I am on the mountain.

Atleast I don't have to dump $160.00 for just a license to even apply like Az --or $150.00 like Nv. (although I do go over to Nv and hunt Chukars) so the license isn't actual a 'waste' and Chukars are a dang good winter lung-n-leg blowout! haha

Good luck, Robb

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