I went with the RadWagon
It has a pretty dang good payload for hauling, if I need to use it that way.
Some assembly required.
Good luck, Robb
The back 'Shelf' is rated @ 120lbs.
All said and done, right @ $1,798.00 OTD (out the door) free delivery.
I am content--------->
Thanks for looking
Good luck, Robb
Yesterday in the Denver Post some sour grapes conventional road bike rider had an editorial about them. Cities and counties are now individually ruling on their use and most all are allowing them wherever bicycles go, per state law. This guy was moaning because some "old man" passed him going up Vail Pass on the bike trail and seemed to be having a great time, and he didnt like that. Wait until he's in his mid-60's and still wants to ride but can't do what he used to.
Since he's a staff writer for the Post, I felt compelled to respond. Here's the text of my letter:
I am a 64 year old mountain bike rider. I ride my conventional mountain bike somewhere between 40-60 miles per week in summer, on gradual terrain. I’m also a 64 year old e-bike enthusiast with a metal hip, asthma, and one bad knee who still loves to ride the hills and rough trails – both up and down. Steve Lipsher's column missed the point of e-bikes. They aren’t designed to race around at top speed, like the arrogant spandex-wrapped Lance Armstrong wannabes who blast past us on bike and walking trails without even so much as an “on your left”, and who disobey traffic laws with impunity. They aren’t for the menacing X-Games MTB wannabes who threaten hikers, horseback riders, and courteous bikers as they careen down narrow trails on the edge of control.
Rather, they are for folks who still enjoy bicycling but need a little push going uphill, or who commute daily and want a boost when fatigue sets in (the assist level is adjustable). The Boomer Bubble is very real, and our aging population of outdoor enthusiasts face different challenges.
Steve condemns e-bikes as being “motorized”, which directly conflicts with the definitions of both federal law (HR 717) and state law (HB 17-1151). Both specifically state that Class I and II low-speed “pedal-assist” bikes with an assist level below 750 watts are NOT motorized vehicles. They are NOT motorcycles or ATVs. The U.S. Congress and the State legislature showed uncharacteristically good sense in codifying the distinction.
Today Steve wants the bike paths all to himself. He said as much in his closing statement. Someday he will grow old and may not be able to pedal where he once did. I’ve learned that lesson the hard way. Perhaps by then reason will have overtaken emotion and Steve still be able to enjoy an outing on an e-bike wherever bicycles are permitted.
Feel free to email him or the editor your thoughts at the bottom of the article
The “on your left” comment is so true. I’ve been brushed more times than I care while out running in the past.
I use my eBike for running errands, hitting a few trails that aren't to snow covered..... ect.....
It sure gets a lot of attention that is for sure.
Good luck, Robb
Found that out myself this past weekend on the trails near Denver. Whether I was running or even walking with my daughter pushing a baby stroller! Lots of a-holes on bikes.
Lookin good Robb!
But I have only been on that wet heavy snow so far.
No mud to speak of
Spring is coming, time will tell.
Good luck, Robb
I bought a spare battery ($499.00) and a spare charger ($39.99) so he can take it to the job and see if he can come up with a Solar charging option for the Single charging plug, not two like + and - on all most all Solar portables.
I'll keep ya'll posted if he comes up with something----------->
Good luck, Robb
As far as the "on your left" goes... seems the majority of runners/walkers I've passed and yelled this to (way in advance), don't know their left from their right. I yell it religiously while out in my spandex on my skinny tire bike.
Robb, you should take a look at the Rambo solar charging unit. I haven't seen it in person but it must be a single plug because that's what Rambos are too.
Good luck with the solar option!
Just black, Lou. Although, I'm thinking of going back to regular shorts because it's always a constant adjustment of the Frank and beans.
As far as biking shorts, I use a hybrid that looks like cargo shorts but has a junk support system inside.
First time I rode into my buddy's driveway with regular spandex bike shorts his Chesapeake ran out and bit me on the leg. Sent a message. There have been no problems with that dog since switching to the cargo-style.
Congrats on the new bike and enjoy!!!!
I just use last years calendar pix.
Good luck, Robb
PS-Thanks Lou ~~ I'll look into it.
USFS has pilot programs now to study the effect. The effect is nil. Within a year or so I predict they'll be permitted wherever conventional pedal bikes are allowed. The lobbying forces are growing, especially among seniors. For now they don't appear to be ticketing anyone, only looking the other way.
to me, before I hit Submit Purchase, I simply looked at it like anything else that has rules/laws/restrictions and made my decision knowing my new eBike didn't open up any new horizions for me just an offering for legal use in so many area's.
Good luck, Robb
Put it this way: The USFS declaration that Class 1 and 2 e-bikes are "motorized" is in direct conflict with federal law. The Supreme Court is going to hear a case this summer to decide whether federal agencies can make up their own "rules" and enforce them as law when they conflict with standing federal laws. This is in response to the Obama practice of bypassing Congress to make "laws" enforced by agencies.
This will get sorted out favorably. May take a year or two but it will happen.
Way funny haha
Good luck, Robb
As for you and the law, personally, it's comforting to know that you NEVER, EVER go 56 in a 55 mph speed zone. You are an example for all of us, a God among men. Congratulations!
Knothead, not sure what you mean, but if it's more old folks enjoying bike trails and closed USFS roads that we used to ride on conventional MTBs 20 years ago, then absolutely!
Face it, getting old sucks and unfortunately we can't do some of the things we used to. This is just a part of life. I would rather have some places where non-motorized contraptions are not allowed than to open up this huge can of worms. There are still plenty of places you can ride.
Look at the demographics of who is buying e-bikes for mountain travel. It's almost all seniors. That's all you need to know.
Why is it that whenever a positive, productive e-bike thread is started some nattering nabobs feel compelled to wreck it by projecting their own unfounded prejudices into the thread?
I guess we all have to have the same opinion as you? This seems familiar.
Not even a hummmmmm
If ebikes are allowed on a trail then all motorized bikes should be allowed. There's nothing special about electricity vs gasoline power.
No special difference in sound? Sorry, but sound is a really big thing to me in my hunting areas. .
No special difference in power? Hmm. I also hunt some trails that motocross type cycles are allowed, and those trails are a lot more damaged than bicycles only. .
No speical thing about how to continue having power? I can take an extra can of gas in with me pretty cheaply. I suppose you could take an extra battery with a large outlay of money, but not many electric plugs where I hunt .
Although I come down on the side of allowing them , I do believe that once allowed, it won't just be senriors that use them. The younger generation, techno crowd will follow suit.
I will admit my wrists/forearms are kinda sore from the rocky trails!!
When all these storms die down and it gets a little warmer I will be using mine daily for running errands, going to the gym and so forth having Free Fuel weeks by not driving my F350 or Jeep is a sweet bennie!
Sure I will go up on the mountain more and on the legal trails and that is just fine.
It is dead quiet!
I mean it will not be just old folks enjoying those trails it will be everyone. Can you imagine how technology will change things and before you know it you e-two seaters, 4-seaters, e-planes etc. Don't think it will happen? Technology changes daily and humans by and large are looking for the easy way all the time. This is a slippery slope you are about to embark on and once you start down it there ain't no coming back. Face it, getting old sucks and unfortunately we can't do some of the things we used to. This is just a part of life. I would rather have some places where non-motorized contraptions are not allowed than to open up this huge can of worms. There are still plenty of places you can ride.
AMEN!!!! Just think how technology has changed in the last 10 years. Where will it be in 10 years from now? You'll probably get 3 days off a charge and be able to avg 40 mph on these things!
Baby Boomers like to single out millennials as being selfish, lazy, worthless, etc...
This discussion is almost humorous. "Hey, I got to enjoy these non-motorized trails my entire life and hunt in peace and relative solitude, but now that it's a bit harder on my knees, let's allow motorized vehicles on them. But not all motorized vehicles, only the ones I want. And, while we're at it, lets pass laws that say that my vehicle is non-motorized, even though the reason I bought it is because it has a motor."
Sorry aging boomers, you had your chance to hunt these areas, time to pass it on to the next generation and give them the same opportunities that you had. To advocate for anything other than that is the definition of selfish.
"Hey, I got to enjoy bowhunting my entire life and hunt in peace and relative solitude, but now that it's a bit harder on my shoulders, let's allow wheels and cams on them. But not all bows, only the ones I want. And, while we're at it, lets pass laws that say that my bow is actually a bow, even though the reason I bought it is because it has wheels and pulleys and cams and is easier to draw and hold."
"Sorry aging boomers, you had your chance to hunt these areas, time to pass it on to the next generation and give them the same opportunities that you had. To advocate for anything other than that is the definition of selfish."
Yep - ban compound bows for the same rationale. Bummer that you older bowhunters who can't/won't shoot a trad bow are against taking the easy way out, and will immediately stop bowhunting.
Give me an effing break. Do you hear yourselves?
I've dealt with knee problems my entire life and am on the road to replacement at some point in the future. Most of my immediate and extended family already have both of them replaced. There are plenty of mountains I can't hunt. It's the cards I was dealt and I plan accordingly. I'd benefit as much as anyone from an ebike but it doesn't change the fact that they absolutely do not belong on non-motorized roads. Perhaps you should petition to just open up those roads to motorized use and then you could use it legally?
Lou, I find it somewhat surprising that you would attack Whip like that. Maybe there is some underlying issue you have with Whip that I'm not aware of, but his statement that you referred to was reasonable as far as I could tell. Your statements about what you "think" will happen with laws, or what your "insider" in CO thinks will happen, are not actually reality at this point in time. Why is it that someone who decides they will follow current law, rather than your interpretation of how you think it will work out, should be called out or attacked?
As a former LEO and Park Ranger, I believe in following laws. USFS TMR "rules" are not laws. They are arbitrary rules made by bureaucrats who often don't understand what they are ruling upon. I worked closely with USFS when I was a Park Ranger in a shared mountain park and saw first hand how it works. Most of my riding is/will be done where e-bikes are currently permitted, except for a couple remote closed USFS roads. But everyone involved with the issue, from USFS regional policy-makers to the various state policy-makers agree that the current USFS TMR jumped the gun and lumped low-speed e-MTBs in with Harleys (thanks to the lobbying of the MTB organizations, much like the trad guys strongly objected to compounds in archery seasons at one time), and it's an educational process. That is why the USFS and states are now starting pilot programs to measure the effect (or not) of assist MTBs on MTB trails. E-bikes don't go as fast as young guys on conventional pedal MTBs. They sure don't go as fast as the spandex cowboys on road bikes. Downhill it's exactly the same.
If people don't like them, don't ride them. If people don't like compound bows, don't shoot them. But don't start projecting personal prejudices into something that's an evolving process without understanding all the facts and ramifications. I'd love to have all compound bows out of the woods and have the hunting seasons to myself. Yes, I am selfish, but I also acknowledge that some want to take the easy way out, and I accept that..
Then the haters felt compelled to jump in. I don't understand the mind of a hater, never will. But why can't haters let a thread be what it is instead of hijacking it to promote a personal agenda?
Originally, all I said is be careful what you desire because you might just get it.
No hate here. I love everyone. I just think there are certain places where motorized whatever don't belong because once you let one in it never stops. That's all.
Here's one for you internet lawyers to figure out... By law, all "motorized vehicles" traveling on USFS roads and trails open to motorized vehicles must be registered through the state, either DMV or the CO CPW which issues OHV registrations for Colorado. USFS writes the citations for unregistered motor vehicles. An e-bike needs to be registered and carry a sticker like an ATV or dirt bike, right?
Nope, the state won't register it as a motorized vehicle for use on USFS and BLM roads/trails because.....wait for it.......federal and state law don't consider them motorized unless they are Class 3. That's what the lead administrator at the CO CPW told me, and gave me his personal phone number in case the USFS hassles me.
So I am breaking the law by following the law if I ride only where motorized vehicles are allowed. Go figure...
Enjoy that new ride!
So to the dilemma I just described, if the USFS considers e-bikes as motorized and everything motorized is required by the USFS to have a visible state registration sticker but the state law says they are not motorized and CPW won't issue a registration and sticker, then am I breaking the law by riding it where the USFS TMR says it's ok since its a motorized vehicle and required to display a sticker?
The state folks tell me this is yet another state-federal disconnect that has yet to be tested in court.
So if I break the law by riding a motorized vehicle in USFS without a valid registration is it a greater or lesser sin that riding an e-bike on a bike trail? The fines are basically the same. I just want some clarity on where my criminal and moral turpitude lies on the Sin Scale, and you seem to be just the guy to determine that.
So since you're pretty good at offering opinions, I'd like yours about which is the greater sin I have to choose since I live next to NF and ride on both hike-bike trails and motorized ATV trails from my house. I want to make sure I'm breaking the lesser of the laws. And also if breaking either "law" is worse than you driving over the speed limit on your way to church because you're running a little late.
Clarify that, and then let's let this thread get back to the discussion of Robb's cool new bike and leave our opinions about right or wrong for a different thread.
Lou, I know that you are a good elk hunter and know a lot about hunting them. I respect that. I don't have any idea why my having a different opinion than you on the use of ebikes on non-motorized trails frustrates you so. Who knows? But I've made my points, and I'm just going to leave them at that. If you want to become a test case for the law on ebikes more power to you. Pun intended.
We were pretty much on our own, to answer traffic complaints, and find issues on the hwy etc.... So in other words, I had the time..... My big thing, was enforcement of the cyclist out on the hwy. I would say a lot of them were jerks, and arrogant, and I would get a lot of complaints, on them...................
You should have heard them whine, when they were getting pulled over, for not stopping for stop signs, and blowing thru red lights, and cutting off others, they acted like they were gut shot.....
That is one assignment I enjoyed, I never stopped a cyclist, for a true and valid violation, that did not employ an attitude and an entitled attitude..... They would come to court, and piss the most liberal judges off, that is how arrogant they were....
I love to ride my mountain bike, but being on the road, you need to be responsible, and bikers are the worst, self titled, arrogant, people I have ever come across....
After all we do live in America and enjoy our Freedom of Speech and being able to voice our opinion.
Must be a mindset, like jet skiers.
Next thing you know I'll be stepping outside the crosswalk lines....... Hey, if you're not living on the edge you're taking up too much space.....
Rut Nut's Link
So whats the problem? Go for it... [and hope maybe snowmobiles make tracks like the ones in the video]
Enjoy the heck out of it!
God Bless America (and our choices!
Thanks Grubby! That's what I was after.............................. I have a Clam Kenai that is about 60 lbs loaded. I also have a much smaller Jet sled that is an option- when loaded it is much lighter due to it's smaller size. But the bigger lakes tend to be windier where a flipover shelter is more advantageous. Just curious if an e-bike could handle the bigger sled. And yes, I do have a "smitty sled" that I strap the Kenai on top of, that makes it much easier to pull in snow.
The last few years we haven't had much snow, so most times there is less than 3 or 4" on top of the ice. Of course if we get winters with lots of snow, then a bike is out of the question. But hasn't happened in at least the last 4 years or so. You guys have me thinking..................................................... ;-)
I have been toying with the idea of putting my single wheel 'Mule Cart' behind my RadWagon, maybe weld some brackets on it so it is more secure.....
I cannot find any USFS regulations that require motorized vehicles to be licensed/registered by the state. I know that Colorado has a state requirement for OHV registration but cannot find the USFS regulation that you refer to. Can you please post this USFS regulation?
If the USFS considers e-bikes to be motorized vehicles and by CO state law motorized vehicles on USFS roads must have some sort of registration, either DMV or CPW-issued, then per the USFS TMR an e-bike must be registered by the state to operate on USFS roads and trails.
Making it even stickier is the state law HR-17-1151 which says that e-bikes can travel on any trails open to other types of bicycles. So the state of CO says no but yes, the USFS says yes but no. Lots to still sort out here, which the USFS admits in their position papers on the pilot programs underway right now.
§ 212.5 Road system management. (a) Traffic rules. Rules set forth under 36 CFR part 261 and this section shall apply to all National Forest System Roads under the jurisdiction of the Forest Service except when in conflict with written agreement. (1) General. Traffic on roads is subject to State traffic laws where applicable except when in conflict with designations established under subpart B of this part or with the rules at 36 CFR part 261.
"36 Code of Federal Regulations 212.1 defines an OHV as any motor vehicle designed for or capable of cross country travel or immediately over land. OHVs in Colorado must have an OHV sticker issued by the State to ride on federal lands." This includes "Two wheeled motor vehicles on which the wheels are in-line".
Hmmm..... So an e-bike is either a "motorized off-road vehicle" or it's not. USFS says yes, State of CO says no. Somebody needs to make up their minds.
Rut Nut's Link
But I was thinking about this thread while watching the Hushin video in the link. If you go to min 11:00, you can see what seems to me is a street bike that someone put fat tires on and called it a mountain bike. I would think that protection for front and rear derailleurs would be a necessity if a company is serious about using one of these bikes in rugged terrain.
For those in the thread with ebikes, do yours have guards under the derailleurs?
Look at the folding ebikes from Rad or quietkat.
I got the aluminum one off Amazon Prime, $124.99, Free delivery/No sales tax.
I also got a motorcycle cover to go over it as It got all that road dust/mud on it from driving.
It was like $20 from Amazon prime.
The main issue I didn't like about the fold-up style eBikes was that they take up a lot of room when folder.
I am using mine almost daily now--weather permitting, even if it is just for being a Grocery Getter!
I have hardly used my Pedal Assist.
I have experimented with having it Pre-Set @ 1--5 and man when it is on 5 it's crazy fast!
As far as Steep, with my limited experience so far on the mountain trails, I find that rough/rocky is more important than steepness.
Good luck, Robb
Back to the registration question, I had a great conversation with the new USFS Regional vehicle travel manager yesterday. He said he took my questions to DC and they have no answers because their TMR regulation definitely says motorized vehicles must be registered but only the USFS and BLM consider e-bikes motorized, not CO.
He also said he believes e-bikes should be allowed on closed USFS roads at the very least, and the USFS policy on e-bikes is evolving as they conduct more pilot programs on the impact. He said the policy-makers dont understand what e-bikes really are, but he has ridden them and thinks they're great, low impact, "green" and should not be considered motorized. He said to his knowledge they have not/ are not issuing citations anywhere for riding e-bikes on closed USFS roads.
Things are changing quickly with regulations. I just got a call from the manager of County Parks here in N. CO and he said they are revising their regulations to comply with state law and allowing Class 1 and 2 e-bikes on all mountain park bike trails...