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Arizona elk loyalty Points
Elk
Contributors to this thread:
elk assasin 19-Apr-18
StickFlicker 19-Apr-18
IdyllwildArcher 19-Apr-18
NoWiser 19-Apr-18
Coyote 65 19-Apr-18
elk assasin 19-Apr-18
Frank Sanders 19-Apr-18
TD 19-Apr-18
WapitiBob 19-Apr-18
cptnron4 20-Apr-18
elk assasin 20-Apr-18
sticksender 20-Apr-18
IdyllwildArcher 20-Apr-18
elk assasin 20-Apr-18
NoWiser 20-Apr-18
elk assasin 20-Apr-18
WapitiBob 20-Apr-18
IdyllwildArcher 20-Apr-18
NoWiser 20-Apr-18
sticksender 20-Apr-18
IdyllwildArcher 20-Apr-18
Frank Sanders 20-Apr-18
StickFlicker 20-Apr-18
IdyllwildArcher 21-Apr-18
Trial153 21-Apr-18
StickFlicker 21-Apr-18
Treeline 21-Apr-18
From: elk assasin
19-Apr-18
I have been in contact with the rules and policy manager for Arizona Fish and Game about their only issuing loyalty points at five years they don't at ten, or 15, or 20. Seems to me the more years you apply and the more money invested in an elk tag should be rewarded. This would apply to Non Residents as well as Residents. If you agree the contact info is ccook@azgfd.gov. Celeste is the manager of the rules and policy division.

From: StickFlicker
19-Apr-18
You'd likely have a stronger argument if you made the appeal for permits of all species, and not just for elk. That makes it look like you only care about what affects you and not what's best for all hunters of the state.

19-Apr-18
The purpose of the loyalty point is to incentivize you to not take a year off. Adding loyalty points doesn't add any more motivation to not take a year off since you still lose the point. No other state has loyalty points. I don't understand asking for more of what is ultimately sort of a dumb thing anyways. Loyalty points just add to point creep.

From: NoWiser
19-Apr-18
More entitlement mentality that hurts new and young hunters. Sorry, I can't get on that horse even though it would likely help me draw sooner.

From: Coyote 65
19-Apr-18
I would really like this if it were retroactive. I have been putting in for elk since 1960. So a point for every 5 years, that would put me at about 11 loyalty points. Plus one for Hunter Ed, so I am going in every year with a really good chance to draw an early bull tag.

Terry

From: elk assasin
19-Apr-18
Since I don't apply for any other species I wasn't aware that they gave loyalty points in other draws. As far as young hunters hunting states with points system they may live long enough to draw I may not. If the young or new hunter wants to get the tag he or she can start the process just like everyone else. So new and young should draw a tag before I do with 15 points and a sizable investment.

19-Apr-18
Excellent idea I think. Will there be a little point creep, yes, not enough to make a huge difference. Don't forget that the mighty dollar changed the whole tag allocation process & gives a chance to everyone who applies now, not just max point holders. As a guy with 21 points who planned on applying for the 23's the year they changed it, it went from 30-50% or so odds if the applicant #'s didn't change to less than 1% (only 1 NR tag in each unit and they took it out of bonus pass and put them in the random). My .02

From: TD
19-Apr-18
Folks would actually get several loyalty points if they weren't point misers and use them every few years..... =D

From: WapitiBob
19-Apr-18
1 point makes a huge difference and the nr allocation change was announced more than 2 years before it happened. Pretty hard to "use" a loyalty point.

From: cptnron4
20-Apr-18
As a point of interest, you do NOT lose your loyalty point after drawing a tag. You keep the point for as long as you keep applying for the species. Also the point for taking Arizona's Hunter Safety Course is yours forever.

Another consideration is that non-resident points convert to resident points if you move to Arizona and become more valuable

From: elk assasin
20-Apr-18
Anyone that applies for the draw adds to point creep, not just the applicants that have a bunch of points. When I first applied I really thought I would have a tag with 7 points, allowing for point creep, now 15 years later, after the draw changes I am beginning to wonder if I will ever hunt Arizona for elk.

From: sticksender
20-Apr-18
Hard to say what effect this would have, but I don't think it would be much help to anyone whose goal is to draw the high-demand hunts. Since everyone in your point class, not just you, would get the additional loyalty points. Therefore you'd gain nothing toward drawing a high-demand tag faster. It would however, increase your point standing in the re-start year after burning your points on a tag.

20-Apr-18
I understand your frustration elk assasin, but first off, you're the one that miscalculated, not the state of AZ. Secondly, you could have hunted AZ this year if you so chose, and in a good unit. If you choose to hold out for 9 or 23, then that's on you. You're right on the cusp of 1 and could have hunted 27 this year. Hell, you could have pulled a unit 4 or 5 tag many years ago and be right on the cusp of drawing it again.

These are your decisions. It seem you're just trying to tweak the system in your favor. The loyalty point was never meant to reward people who held on forever for the top units. It was intended to increase hunting licence revenue by encouraging people to not take a year off of applying.

EDIT: Just checked. You could have drawn 27 for years.

From: elk assasin
20-Apr-18
Every year in January my wife asks if I am sending my yearly donation to Arizona Fish and Game. She is wondering if I am stupid or stubborn, I assure her I am both. The draw system and points are for the most part about revenue and continuing to generate revenue for Fish and Game Departments, more so than hunting. Just my opinion, I do understand money makes things happen, or lack of money ends things.

From: NoWiser
20-Apr-18
Someone with 15 points that claims they can't draw an AZ tag gets zero sympathy from me. You can draw tags right now that those just starting will likely only be able to dream about.

From: elk assasin
20-Apr-18
I am aware that I can draw many units, I don't want to hunt any other unit, didn't when I started, and I won't hunt any other unit, so I will die of old age or draw the unit I want or run out of funds to keep applying. Wasn't soliciting any sympathy, just asking the question of why loyalty was limited to one five year period, and not continuing five, ten, fifteen, twenty, years of applying, as my wife would say loyalty or stupidity or stubbornness.

From: WapitiBob
20-Apr-18
NR point pools; unit 1 archery was 5/26 with 16 points this year, 3A was 6/8 with 17, 7W was 6/6 with 15, 10 was 2/10 at 18 points, and 27 was 5/26 with 14.

20-Apr-18
"... I don't want to hunt any other unit..."

Okay. Well, that's your choice to do. At least you have a chance in the random pool because you're never going to catch 9 unless you're in your 30s.

Since you're so invested, you might consider going and spending a couple days in 9 during archery season with a bugle and no bow and then do the same in a unit you have a chance at. You might be surprised at what you find.

From: NoWiser
20-Apr-18
It's easier to try to make it harder for the young hunters to draw so that you have a perceived better chance at drawing the tag, Ike.

Arizona took a step in the right direction when they split 50/50. I'd like to see them to take the next step and go to a straight bonus point system.

From: sticksender
20-Apr-18
I hope guys will keep in mind that the pervasive point-hoarding mentality, as deeply flawed in it's logic as it may be, is the biggest driver in allowing the rest of us to draw some decent hunts every few years in states like AZ, CO, WY. Therefore I would encourage it as much as possible ;-)

20-Apr-18
Greg, I was thinking the same thing, but since the OP was a regular, I figured I'd shed a different light on it. If he wasn't, I'd be happy to let him ride it out ;)

20-Apr-18
+1 Sticksender

From: StickFlicker
20-Apr-18
"The loyalty point was never meant to reward people who held on forever for the top units. It was intended to increase hunting licence revenue by encouraging people to not take a year off of applying."

I think this was an unintended (albeit positive for G&F) consequence of the loyalty point. The real intent of it, when it was created, was to give Arizona residents an odds benefit over non-residents after New Mexico outfitter USO sued the AZ G&F and the federal judge initially said that Arizona couldn't limit the number of non-resident permits to 10%. AZ instituted a few things at that time in an attempt to counteract the affect of the court's ruling and give a benefit to residents in the drawing without violating the court order.

21-Apr-18
That's odd. Then why call it a "loyalty point" and offer it to NRs too?

From: Trial153
21-Apr-18
I agree things are not complicated enough. I suggest a matrix that shows a numerical representation of your true loyalty. Maybe assign tasks that give additional incentives. For example if you walk more then 20 miles uphill and hand delivered your application it would move you several places up the into the matrix, after all the proves your more loyal then the lazy loser applying from a lap top on his kitchen counter drinking his morning coffee.

In all seriousness we need to we looking for ways to simplify things, make them more level and geared to long term substainable use and participation.

From: StickFlicker
21-Apr-18
"Then why call it a "loyalty point" and offer it to NRs too?"

They had just been handed a ruling by the federal courts that they could not discriminate against NRs by limiting the number of permits NRs could receive to no more than 10% ( the ruling has since been overturned on appeal). They couldn't hardly come out with a rule that directly discriminated further against NRs in an obvious manner. The requirement to buy a hunting license in order to apply for a big game tag wasn't always in place, like it is now. Prior to that, you could check a box that you wanted to purchase a license ONLY if you were drawn for a tag. Many NRs chose this option, rather than spend the amount of money that a NR license cost if they didn't plan to hunt in AZ. There was also a rule that said you didn't receive a bonus point if you chose that option. However, many NRs still chose that option, so I believe that many NRs didn't have as many bonus points as residents back then, which was expected to give the residents a leg-up in the drawing without obviously discriminating against NRs.

The year that this occurred, the drawing for big game tags had already been conducted (I believe all species were still being drawn in one big drawing at that time). The timing of the court's ruling was unfortunate in that the drawing had been held, but results had not yet been released. In order not to incur the expense of another drawing, without the 10% caps in place, the G&F decided to just give additional tags (above the amount that they had originally determined was best for sustainable species levels) to all of the NRs that would have been drawn had the 10% caps not been in place. Following this, there was a lot of outcry and concern from residents and G&F alike that something needed to be done to help residents to draw in their own state and still be in compliance of the court's order. There were a lot of ideas thrown out in a short amount of time, this is just one that "stuck". I know that Trial153's post was in jest, but there actually were numerous such complicated recommendations, including one where hunters would have been able to earn additional points on an annual basis for spending quantified periods of time volunteering for wildlife associations and wildlife related work projects. This also was expected to benefit residents since it would be difficult for NRs to spend enough time in AZ to earn the extra points. I think this was a good idea, but the logistics just seemed complicated to track, and there were concerns of corruption due to the tracking being done by these non-profit wildlife organizations themselves.

To answer the second part of your question, I suppose it's called a loyalty point because they are rewarding you for applying for five consecutive years and then every year thereafter. Makes sense to me.

From: Treeline
21-Apr-18
Not sure why someone would get so hung up on one unit in Arizona if they want to hunt. Lots of fabulous elk hunts in Arizona. I have drawn 3 tags (3A/3C, 23, and 6A) down there and saw 370+ bulls on each. Killing one is a different story. Have been in 8, 9, and 10 with buddies and can’t say they are markedly any better. Pick a unit and go have fun!

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