I've done it with Carbon hog arrows. My perception was improved penetration, but the variables involved in penetration on game (and the inherent tendency of razor sharp two blade heads to pass thru almost any animal anyway) make it hard to say definitively that it helped.
Stupid question out if curiousity......Is putting weedeater line in ur arrows versus just going to a heavier arrow a spline thing? Goal is to get more kinetic energy but staying with the correct arrow for your setup? Imma dumbie....
With trad gear I have used the weight tubes from 3Rivers Archery. I have used a heavier spine and front loaded with a 100gr .243 bullet. I'm pretty much done experimenting and just try to get a heavier gpi shaft in the proper spine.
No, not a spine thing, just being a cheap bastard because I have a whole bunch of Gold Tips at a great price and want my package to weigh more without sticking a bunch more weight up front. I get super flight with my setup and 125 grain heads.
Used to buy the weight tubes at $1.50 each. I think the weedeater string costs about a couple cents per arrow and accomplishes the same thing.
Same as Jaq. Why buy a whole bunch of new arrows when I can add trimmer line?
@ Native Oakie - all the elk and deer I killed have never noticed any string rattling :)
Also, if you dont get full penetration with your arrow, and the animal runs and breaks the arrow, the trimmer line will either keep the hole open or fall out be another piece of the trail to follow. Win win
This all sounds good. I cut a piece and it added 52 grs if i remember correctly.
Had to retune the bow tonight since the timing was off and the papertune is good now. Shot arrows with and without the line and got good bullet holes. Arrows with the line will be in the 500gr range. Now have to shoot broadheads.
I used the arrow tubes from Lancaster Archery to get my arrows up to 525 grains for Greenland. The ones I used added 135 grains and I think were $13 a dozen. They fit tight but I had to superglue my nocks in when shooting at targets. Ed F
I'm not into size anymore, only weight. Like those East coast whitetail hunters, you know?
If I was springing for Greenland another couple bucks an arrow for the heavier weight tubes would be a no-brainer. I have some heavy shafts ready to go for when I draw a CO moose tag. When I'm Like 94 years old....
I don’t understand the weed eater line idea. Doesn’t it compress back when shot and push forward on impact? What keeps it from sliding back and forth in there? It doesn’t sound like a great option, but maybe I’m not understanding something. Maybe I’ll YouTube it, I’m sure someone has a “how to” on there.
It does add weight, but you are not getting the full bang for your buck as far as penetration goes. Energy is lost due to compression off the line. Fifty grains of line does not give the same advantage as fifty grains off solid weight.
I'm not an engineer but don't understand how energy is lost since the line is fully contained inside the arrow tube. The arrow speed and weight doesn't change with 50 grains of weedeater string vs 50 grains of weight tube, so theoretically the momentum and KE should be the same? Paper tears are perfect and visually the arrow flight is as good as I can get out of a well-tuned stickbow setup. Weight tubes definitely move inside the shaft which is why some guys glue the nocks in. I don't glue nocks in with string.
Seems like the alternative would be adding 50 grains up front, which will change the spine and potentially result in more paradox and lost energy. But maybe I'm missing something.
The trimmer line I use is .080 in thickness. My GTs are .246 i.d. - [I could actually slide 2 stings in] That doesnt leave much room for the line to compress upon impact.
Now, I did have one issue, but I resolved it by kicking the line. Without the line being kinked, and not cut to proper length, it will slide back to the nock when arrow is shot. Upon target impact, the line slides forward, hits the insert and then bounces back again, which in turn will sometimes blow your nock out.
But, like mentioned, kinking the line every 2-3 inches will resolve that and also help with any looseness inside the arrow shaft.
Like Lou, Im not an engineer, but I did pass physics class. Any weight added TO THE ENTIRE LENGTH OF THE ARROW will not affect spine.
Again, Ive been using trimmer line for about 10 years. I dont have enough fingers to count the animals that fell to an arrow with trimmer line in them.
Line acts in the same way as does a shock absorber. You get weight but it does not transfer to real world results on impact, due to it's inability to transfer energy. Pretty simple to imagine, without having to break out the calculator and vacuum tubes.
I have used weight tubes once for buffalo. Did have issues with nocks bouncing out on impact with targets.
Adding weight tubes or weedeater line actually hurts your FOC by moving the balance point back on the arrow.
I much prefer to go to stiffer spine arrows and put more weight up front. You will get more FOC and overall weight that will increase penetration.
It used to be very difficult to find any heavier point weights than 145 grains. Now, there are many options for point weights up over 300 grains for field points and broad heads. With all the options out there, it is even possible to increase point weights on lighter spined arrows and tune the bow to increase weight and FOC on the arrows you are currently using.
The whole thing is just to imprecise for me and would drive me crazy. I just chose the a shaft that has the GPI that I want to begin with, I then add the additional appropriate weight via to the insert to get me where I need to be.
I'm not shooting the line. I'm shooting a stiff arrow as a projectile. The string (or weight tube) is simply a passenger inside the stiff tube that adds ballast to the projectile. If the weedeater string compressed rearward with any significance it would push the nock out since its visibly up against the nock.
Lets say we have two identical Gold Tip arrows with identical heads, identical spine, identical FOC, both weighing 460 grains, traveling at 200 FPS with identical calculated KE. One has a drinking straw the full length, one has weedeater string the full length, with weight distributed equally. I want someone to produce a calculation showing how the weedeater string arrow results in measurably less energy transferred on impact.
You still gain, but you are getting a speed/trajectory penalty without an equal “impact” gain. I’m not capable of giving the “calculator” model but think of a three pound deadblow hammer and an equal weight steel or lead hammer.
Whenever something moves or changes shape, energy is used. (Lost). Same as shooting a weak spined arrow. Energy is lost at both launch and impact as the shaft bends and straightens in both directions. Same for the line inside the shaft
Also, as you launch the arrow the line compresses to the nock end and (substantially) won’t recover until impact and deceleration at which time it compresses forward and adds a secondary “mini tap”. You’d get more benefit from one solid impact.
You do get gain, just not an equal return on penalty.
The only advantage of using added weight to the entire shaft is cost, if you already have arrows you want to use that are marginally weak spined. For best results to increase penetration is not to just add weight, but to add it up front, especially if that also allows you to shoot a stiffer arrow. Guys seem to forget that there are two dynamic spines in arrow flight - one at launch and one at impact. Heavier tip weight weakens dynamic spine at launch but stiffens it at impact. That means less lost energy at impact. It also will help reduce the effect of deflections at impact, which is pretty common. It also has the advantage of increased flight stability and recovery out of the bow with the same fletching, or the ability to reduce fletching size for less in flight drag.
As to Lou's question above -"One has a drinking straw the full length, one has weedeater string the full length, with weight distributed equally." - KE and momentum would be the same. However, the compressibility of the string may be more than a weight tube. That would lengthen the time the energy is transferred. In gross turns; maybe more of a push than a blow.
The weight tubes fit...and are designed for the arrow shafts; Thumbs up
I Jethro'd the weed line for some testing as I like tinkering....I went to the tubes and didn't look back.
Treeline....then you never read my posts on using the tubes for heavy game. The light ones don't cause many issues loose...but the heavy ones need to be epoxied in or you will blow out inserts and noks. That just tells you how much energy they add.
I get it, just don't believe there is enough of a difference to matter in real-world use. I asked a few elk killed with weight tubes and some killed with weedeater string if they believed there was any measurable difference and only got shrugs...
Quote: " I asked a few elk killed with weight tubes and some killed with weedeater string if they believed there was any measurable difference and only got shrugs..."
This past week I killed a bear with a two blade Stinger from a 42# recurve and one with a three blade mechanical form a 65# compound. I asked them if they noticed any difference and neither answered to the affirmative. Although the Stinger bear did moan about his death a bit.
If you are not going to change arrows and can't or won't add weight, if even needed, any other way, then the weed eater line, IMO, falls into the "better than nothing " category. Just like some women; cheap, easy and get the job done, but not likely the one you want to take home to meet Mom.
Unless the line has a tight fit inside the shaft, it will always be resting on the low-side of the arrow when at full draw and at the moment of release. This will cause it to move inside in an oscillatory manner independent of the arrow because of its solid core vs the hollow core of the tube arrow shaft.
Others in this thread have shared they have no issues with it, which shows just how much we tend to really overthink most of this stuff in archery. Sure, physics will explain everything that happens, but we're not talking particle physics or trying to cause a reaction in the Hadron Collider at CERN. Archery as we use it is certainly not finesse in any sense of the imagination. Well, maybe, in imagination...
It makes for good forum and pro shop banter anyway.
To make up for the Colorado guys I decided to weight a dozen arrows with tightly wound $100 bulls. It takes like 4 bills per arrow, but man the penetration is so worth it! I tried it at first with $20’s but just want quite right. ;)
Weedeaters of CO....design and execute a test to prove how much additional penetration your heavier arrow gets versus the unfullfilled shaft on the same arrow. We could all make our estimates on Bowsite and the winner gets an elk hunt with Jaq and CN as the prize!
HDE, that's why most guys who use it put hard kinks in the line every few inches, so it doesn't wobble around inside the shaft.
Finesse in a bowhunting setup is often a figment of the imagination with many factors, so long as the setup falls within reasonable parameters. Like the folks who obsess over a couple pounds of KE, a few FPS, a couple percent difference in FOC. In the real world it's mice nuts.
Arguably one of the most accomplished archery elk hunters in the world (apologies to Big Dan) who has killed 52 bulls now at age 51, shoots a 385 grain arrow, 100 grain broadhead, and his FOC is around 8-9%. He doesn't post much here anymore but lurks and laughs at some of the presumably "important" heated discussions about those topics..
Jaq...your post is accurate as per arrow and bow minutia...we pole vault over mouse turds trying to optimize our set-ups.
I've killed several elk (4 to be exact), a grizzly, a moose, several black bears, whitetails, mule deer, Coues deer, etc with 375-385 gr arrows (Goldtip 55-75's...400 spine) and most were pass-throughs unless the far shoulder was encountered on exit...and I didn't hit the near shoulder, nor do I want too.
When I needed new shafts I bought some super skinny Injexions that finish up at 460 grs or so with an outsert and D-6 insert for reinforcing plus a 100 gr head. They typically pass-thru unless the far shoulder is encountered, as did my heavier, fat old 23-15's, etc. What I've experienced is dang good performance out of typical hunting arrows, broadheads and bows, whether on the lighter side or the heavier side...same with shaft diameter, skinny or fat, both get the job done.
I had no idea weedeater line would cause such controversy!
Imo, i dont think it compresses or flexes as much as some think. It can only move so much within the confines of the shaft. Anyways, im set on trying a certain arrow that has an avg weight at the correct spine. But id like to increase the overall weight and the line sounds like a good way to accomplish this. I appreciate the pointers.
I tried the line and the only complaints I had were the knocks coming off and the sound it made when flex testing arrows after shooting them. I flex every arrow and with the line inside it made a strange noise that I couldn't differentiate from a weak arrow.
It definitely worked well for my son's arrows when he moved from "child-like" draw weights to a bit more heft. Was nice to add weight using the weed-eater line.
I used to add weedeater line, seems to work fine for extra weight and didn't seem like it caused any spine issues. but then two years ago I started using gold tips and the weight system you can add to the inserts is pretty slick.. I can add and remove weight as I need and put it all up front where I want it.
I know some trad guys who used black pepper when carbons first came out.
Operator error. Weedeater string won't knock nocks out or rattle if you kink it. It doesn't affect spine (same with weight tubes). Putting an extra 50 grains up front behind the head can affect spine, however, but that depends on where your spine is relative to draw weight, of course. I don't attend the Church of EFOC so having that extra up front that doesn't matter to me.
Pour in some lead shot...then some sand...then some flour...then reinsert the nock. Now you've made your arrows heavier AND arranged the weight to increase FOC. I'm going to patent that idea right away...or not.