Carbon Express Arrows
California Non-Resident Draw
Wild Sheep
Contributors to this thread:
sticksender 17-May-18
flyingbrass 17-May-18
DL 17-May-18
sticksender 17-May-18
TXHunter 17-May-18
NvaGvUp 17-May-18
sticksender 17-May-18
NvaGvUp 17-May-18
flyingbrass 17-May-18
NvaGvUp 17-May-18
NvaGvUp 17-May-18
Capra 17-May-18
IdyllwildArcher 17-May-18
Capra 17-May-18
sticksender 17-May-18
'Ike' (Phone) 17-May-18
Capra 17-May-18
mtnview 17-May-18
IdyllwildArcher 17-May-18
Drnaln 18-May-18
NvaGvUp 18-May-18
NvaGvUp 18-May-18
Drnaln 18-May-18
TXHunter 18-May-18
WapitiBob 18-May-18
NvaGvUp 18-May-18
NvaGvUp 18-May-18
Drnaln 18-May-18
BOHNTR 18-May-18
Drnaln 18-May-18
IdyllwildArcher 19-May-18
sticksender 19-May-18
WapitiBob 19-May-18
TXHunter 19-May-18
sticksender 19-May-18
NvaGvUp 19-May-18
TXHunter 19-May-18
Drnaln 20-May-18
From: sticksender
17-May-18
Is anyone well-versed in the workings of the non-resident sheep draw in California? I've never applied there due to the seemingly horrible draw odds, the high app cost, and the ambiguity in how the draw works. California limits NR's to "up to 10%" of the total sheep permit allocation. That means 1 NR permit, since there are only 17 total permits in 2018. But the permit could be drawn by a NR max point holder, eliminating any chance for a random permit being available to NR's. I haven't found any info indicating whether that's what actually happens....i.e., whether the NR permit is always (or usually, or sometimes, or never) issued to a max point holder. There'd be no sense in wasting 180.00 if there's zero chance to draw without max points.

From: flyingbrass
17-May-18
i've tried it a few times but it doesn't make sense really.

From: DL
17-May-18
You can always buy the raffle tickets for that hunt. Buy as many as you want. It’s a random draw that f&w lists. I can still put in for that one after being drawn last year.

From: sticksender
17-May-18
Yes I did buy a few of the raffle tickets already.

From: TXHunter
17-May-18
I have looked into this also - with the exact same questions. No one could really give me a definitive answer. I apply for sheep just about everywhere annually. I applied for many years in CA but finally quit sending them the $180 about 4 years ago.

I hope someone can definitively answer this question - I might start applying again if I know for sure I have at least a puncher’s chance.

From: NvaGvUp
17-May-18
CA works a lot like WY. There is the regular draw, which favors max point applicants but these ae bonus points, not preference points.

Then there is the other draw which does not favor anyone. All applicants go into the same bucket.

Then, thanks to CAWSF, there is the raffle tag, which is formally known as The Random Draw Tag. As noted above, anyone can play and there is no limit on the number of tickets you can buy. The non-resident limit does not apply to this tag, nor does the once-in-a-lifetime rule.

When they did the first Random Draw, the tag went to a woman in Wisconsin. She had several family members join her on the hunt, which was very cool.

From: sticksender
17-May-18
Understood Kyle, and it's a sweet deal that we all have a shot at the fundraising raffle tag. But since only one DBHS tag is being awarded to NR's in the regular (non-raffle) draw, what we don't know is whether that one tag always goes to a max point holder. That piece of information is not being reported by CaDFW. If there was little to no chance for NR's to draw in the random, and this information became widely known, there'd no doubt be fewer NR hunting licenses sold at $169.00 a pop. A non-resident is not required to purchase a hunting license in order to buy fundraising raffle chances.

From: NvaGvUp
17-May-18
Greg,

The regular draw is held first. So everyone has a chance at the NR tag.

FYI, DFW has agreed with us that they are not issuing enough sheep tags. So starting with next year's draw, there should be 20+ draw tags and therefore two NR tags.

From: flyingbrass
17-May-18
where is the link for the raffle?

From: NvaGvUp
17-May-18
Greg,

Note also that there are NO preference point draws in units which have only one tag.

That means every unit has a tag available in the non-preference point draw.

From: NvaGvUp
17-May-18

NvaGvUp's Link
John,

Start here and good luck!

https://www.wildlife.ca.gov/Licensing/Hunting/Big-Game#22077122-fund-raising-random-drawing-tags

From: Capra
17-May-18
To add to what Kyle said. When there is only 1 tag then there is no max point rule, so that tag is fair game.

Now with that said, our odds are tough. Not that the odds are not tough everywhere. Without creating a spreadsheet or something crazy my guess is that raffle tags are a better bet.

17-May-18
Kyle explained the draw. The odds are horrible, even for residents, so long as you don't have max points. If you're a NR, unless you have a lifetime lic, you're better off just spending the money in the raffle.

From: Capra
17-May-18
To add to what Kyle said. When there is only 1 tag then there is no max point rule, so that tag is fair game.

Now with that said, our odds are tough. Not that the odds are not tough everywhere. Without creating a spreadsheet or something crazy my guess is that raffle tags are a better bet.

From: sticksender
17-May-18
If they truly do the max point draw AFTER the random, that would tick me off if I was one of the max point holders. Especially as a NR, since NR's can only be issued a maximum of ONE total permit annually, under the current 2018 quotas. I talked to the Huntin Fool people about this and they thought the max point draw was done first. If the max point draw is done first, and a NR draws one tag, then the NR draw is over for the year.

By the way, according to the report posted HERE on the CA DFW website, NR's were not issued any sheep tags in 2016 & 2017. Residents happened to win all 18 sheep tags in both years. I'm talking about draw tags, not fundraiser tags. I guess this is not totally surprising, because out of the total of 16,293 sheep applications last year, only 850 were non-resident apps. That's a ratio of 18 Res apps to every NR app. With there being no separate tag allocation for NR's, it's plausible that such an outcome will happen occasionally, with so few NR's participating in the draw.

17-May-18
“Without creating a spreadsheet or something crazy my guess is that raffle tags are a better bet.”

Not anymore! ;-)

From: Capra
17-May-18
@ IKE yep it is a mess/ponzi scheem.

@sticksender slow down, max points tags exist for both NR and R when there are 2 tags or more. So yes, if you apply for a unit with 2 tags then you as a NR are in with all of the NR for that tag. YOU as a NR can draw that tag, as could a resident with max points. Hope that makes sense ! The fact is that Jason and his crew have not really boiled down the California NR facts because overall they are less than good.

From: mtnview
17-May-18
Having been a benefactor of their draw twice as a NR (sheep @ max pts and elk at one less than max), I’m not absolutely clear of their process. I’ve heard conflicting explanations from DFW employees. I think only some programmer knows the precise explanation. CA has been good to me but I’m done and bailing on my antelope points. Good luck to all who hang in there, it can happen!

17-May-18
CA really needs to convert its sheep and elk draws to a BP system. It's beyond a Ponzi Scheme at this point. It works fairly well enough for the deer tags.

From: Drnaln
18-May-18
I spoke with California F & W about being a non-resident with a lifetime hunting license & the person I talked with told me those applicants were considered non-residents in the big game drawing. They were still subject to the 1 sheep, 1 elk & 1 pronghorn NR limit of only 1 tag. I'm going to call again & try to get more information.

From: NvaGvUp
18-May-18
I bought a lifetime license before I moved out of CA. It paid for itself in four years!

Huntin' Fool has it right for deer, elk and antelope, but not for sheep.

BTW, Jason is not at Huntin' Fool. He and Adam Bronson started Epic Outdoors two years ago.

From: NvaGvUp
18-May-18
It's not a Ponzi scheme.

From: Drnaln
18-May-18
Kyle, Are Non-residents with lifetime licenses limited to the only 1 sheep, elk & pronghorn tag rule in the big game drawing? I think you drew a Tule elk tag after moving to Nevada but was that the only NR tag handed out that year?

From: TXHunter
18-May-18
It’s my belief that the max point draw is first and that no non-max point holder has a chance. Even though I have heard conflicting stories on that. That makes more sense than vice-versa, otherwise what does max points do for you with 1 tag? Nothing.

But, as I said, I agree with the above that almost no one in G&F but the programmer knows or at least is willing to say exactly how it works so as to not discourage the $$ coming in.

From: WapitiBob
18-May-18
Call the right people, you get the right answers.

99 out of 100 won't make the effort.

From: NvaGvUp
18-May-18
drain,

Annual license or lifetime license - it makes no difference in the draw.

Sheep tags are once-in-a-lifetime for everyone. Other tags are not.

From: NvaGvUp
18-May-18
In the Sheep Draw ONLY, the non-bonus point draw is held prior to the Max Point Draw.

For deer, elk and antelope, it's the other way around.

From: Drnaln
18-May-18
Kyle, Thanks for the reply but I was wondering if having a Lifetime license & then moving out of California would make a non-resident not subject to the 1 sheep tag for all non-residents rule. I called F & W again today & the guy told me non-residents were subject to the only 1 tag rule even if they had a lifetime license before moving out of the state. I was hoping California was more like Arizona.

From: BOHNTR
18-May-18
I was told something totally opposite.....that it would draw just like AZ for those who have lifetime license and move out of state (max point holders).

From: Drnaln
18-May-18
Roy, I hope you're right. I called twice now & was told the same thing both times by different people. No restrictions in the deer draw but still subject to the 1 tag only rule for non-residents for sheep, elk & pronghorn. I'll try again on Monday!

19-May-18
I was told the same thing Roy.

From: sticksender
19-May-18
If I had the free time, I'd attempt to track down the right person in the division to remove the mystery from these issues. Maybe someone else will pursue that.

But based on the CaDFW report I posted above, at least we know this......that no NR drew a sheep tag in the last 2 years. Therefore no matter the order of the max point vs random draws, every NR applicant did have a chance to draw in those two years. It may seem to defy logic, but that's actually an encouragement for a NR without points to enter the draw. A guy just has to decide if the 180.00 is worth it, for the miniscule odds.

From: WapitiBob
19-May-18
I'd start with Josh Morgan

From: TXHunter
19-May-18
I do not see how no NR drawing at all shows anything - except that NRs often will not draw a single tag and may not even have a chance at all.

From: sticksender
19-May-18
It shows that if the max point round was done first, the NR quota of one permit was not filled by a NR max point holder. Therefore all NR's with less than max points were eligible to draw a sheep tag in the ensuing random round of the draw. And vice versa.

Since there is no sheep tag quota separately allocated to NR's in California, a NR still has to be lucky and have their name drawn before all the permits are taken by residents. As I mentioned above, NR's are outnumbered by residents 18:1 in the total draw pool. So it should not be surprising that, on occasion, NR's don't even reach their "up to 10%" ceiling of one permit. Not because they didn't have a chance, but because luck failed to smile on a NR that year. There must be thousands of names in the hat with max points, but only a few can get a permit each year.

States such as Idaho and Montana also operate under this same "up to, but not guaranteed" NR ceiling on their permit allocation. But we never notice it due to the overwhelming number of NR's in the total draw pool, assuring that NR's almost always hit their ceiling. Colorado has the same type system for elk & deer, in which NR's are not guaranteed to draw ANY deer or elk tags. But again we never notice it, due to overwhelming participation on the part of NR's in the draw.

From: NvaGvUp
19-May-18
drain,

If you have a Lifetime license and then move out-of-state, you are a Non-Resident in the draw.

From: TXHunter
19-May-18
sticksender that is a very helpful explanation. Thanks.

From: Drnaln
20-May-18
Kyle, Thanks...That's what I got out of F & W on my calls. I was hoping for something else!

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