Summit Treestands
Whisker Buiscuit. Iron Wills. Eye Opener
Equipment
Contributors to this thread:
Rutnrod1995 04-Jun-18
Rutnrod1995 04-Jun-18
Rutnrod1995 04-Jun-18
carcus 04-Jun-18
Rutnrod1995 04-Jun-18
JTV 04-Jun-18
Rutnrod1995 04-Jun-18
smarba 04-Jun-18
Rutnrod1995 04-Jun-18
Billyvanness 04-Jun-18
ohiohunter 04-Jun-18
Rutnrod1995 04-Jun-18
hardcore247 04-Jun-18
SBH 04-Jun-18
Dino 04-Jun-18
Rutnrod1995 04-Jun-18
Scooter 04-Jun-18
WV Mountaineer 04-Jun-18
nvgoat 04-Jun-18
nvgoat 04-Jun-18
SDHNTR(home) 04-Jun-18
joehunter 04-Jun-18
JTV 04-Jun-18
Rutnrod1995 04-Jun-18
Buffalo1 04-Jun-18
WV Mountaineer 04-Jun-18
APauls 04-Jun-18
Rutnrod1995 04-Jun-18
Rutnrod1995 04-Jun-18
WV Mountaineer 04-Jun-18
bowbender77 04-Jun-18
ground hunter 04-Jun-18
SDHNTR(home) 04-Jun-18
patdel 04-Jun-18
Rutnrod1995 05-Jun-18
Castle Oak 05-Jun-18
Pigsticker 05-Jun-18
12yards 05-Jun-18
trkyslr 05-Jun-18
mountainman 05-Jun-18
Bob H in NH 05-Jun-18
ground hunter 05-Jun-18
longbeard 05-Jun-18
JTV 05-Jun-18
Rutnrod1995 05-Jun-18
hardcore247 05-Jun-18
Rutnrod1995 05-Jun-18
Buglmin 05-Jun-18
smarba 05-Jun-18
Bowfreak 05-Jun-18
trophyhill 05-Jun-18
Rutnrod1995 05-Jun-18
Pigsticker 05-Jun-18
Rutnrod1995 05-Jun-18
Beendare 05-Jun-18
Rutnrod1995 05-Jun-18
longbeard 05-Jun-18
4blade 05-Jun-18
Rutnrod1995 06-Jun-18
APauls 06-Jun-18
Buck Watcher 06-Jun-18
Ucsdryder 06-Jun-18
splitlimb13 08-Jun-18
Rutnrod1995 08-Jun-18
APauls 08-Jun-18
krieger 06-Jul-18
TD 06-Jul-18
Dale06 07-Jul-18
Franklin 08-Jul-18
lv2bohunt 08-Jul-18
From: Rutnrod1995
04-Jun-18
Ok, so I will start by saying that I have shot a Whisker Biscuit ever since I started shooting the bow. I enjoyed its simplicity.... But today my views have changed completely.... Let's take a look:

10:30 am- I get to the range and pull out my arrows and broadheads to do some broadhead tuning. I have already gotten my bow completely tuned to my field points and I shoot a group of three to make sure (pics below).

10:45- I set up my target 10 yards out and put a broadhead dead center, then a field tip. Perfect.

10:50- I move the target back to 20 yards and the real trouble begins. I shoot my broadhead and then my field tip. It is fine up and down. However, the broadhead hit right of my field point. I make a hair adjustment to the Whisker Biscuit, moving it left. The broadhead hits more towards where I'm aiming, but the field point has flown wide left.... Great...

11:30- I have moved my rest from left to right. Nothing is working. In fact, it's making it worse. I lost one Iron Will to a metal post wide right of my target, I also lost a field point wide left to a similar post.

1200- I have now gotten off the phone with the local archery shop, seeing as mine is closed. He advised me to keep tinkering with it. I shoot a 5mm FMJ 340 spine 30" arrow and draw. I am not underspined, I was tuned to begin with. The frustration is setting in....

1230- I smash yet another arrow into a steel pole... Now I'm pissed......

1300- I finally drive down the road to the archery shop, he checks my tune and tells me all is well. A touch high, but he fixed that in one shot. He didn't even want me to pay him. He tells me to check my posture and stance, perhaps try some more rest movement in the opposite direction.

1330- I get set back up at 20 yards and fire a field point first. I'm off by quite a bit. I resight my sight and screw on a broadhead. It shoots right again... I am one step away from maniacal laughter...

1425- I lost yet another arrow to flying wide left. The broadhead is barely clinging to the target, but i cannot afford to lose another arrow.

1500- I give up. I pack my things and I believe I've made up my mind. I will be searching for a drop away rest.

Conclusion- I cannot imagine the Iron Wills are the issue? I've NEVER heard of them having an issue tuning...... This was the most miserable and longest day at the range in my entire life! Feel free to offer any advice you may have, but I think it may be a biscuit problem... Thoughts?

Bow/arrow specs: Mathews Halon 32 65 lb draw. 30" length. 29" 5mm FMJ 340 spine. S125 Iron Will Broadhead. 125 grain field point.

From: Rutnrod1995
04-Jun-18

Rutnrod1995's embedded Photo
Field point group at 20 yards.
Rutnrod1995's embedded Photo
Field point group at 20 yards.
Rutnrod1995's embedded Photo
Iron Wills
Rutnrod1995's embedded Photo
Iron Wills
Rutnrod1995's embedded Photo
First shot. Field point on the left. Broadhead on the right.
Rutnrod1995's embedded Photo
First shot. Field point on the left. Broadhead on the right.
Rutnrod1995's embedded Photo
My first 1/32 adjustment with the rest.
Rutnrod1995's embedded Photo
My first 1/32 adjustment with the rest.

From: Rutnrod1995
04-Jun-18

Rutnrod1995's embedded Photo
As I continue to adjust, it continues to spread further apart.
Rutnrod1995's embedded Photo
As I continue to adjust, it continues to spread further apart.

From: carcus
04-Jun-18
Get a qad hdx drop away, what bow are you shooting? If you have static yoke things will be much easier

From: Rutnrod1995
04-Jun-18
Carcus. I edited my post. All the specs are at the bottom of the original post.

From: JTV
04-Jun-18
no vents on those damn things... they are catching air and planning ... did you ever paper tune FP's ? ... spin the BH's/arrows ? ... cam timing issue ?... bare shaft tune? ( i dont )... walk back tune after french tune ( this is what I do) ... and I shoot Slick Tricks or Steelheads (XL's) .... I can shoot 3 different Slicks with no problems out of the Back up bow using a Biscuit Pro/ helical blazers ... the Main Bow uses the Rip Cord Ace ...

From: Rutnrod1995
04-Jun-18
The thing is, I haven't heard of anybody else having planning issues with the solids. Especially at 20 yards. I have my cams tuned, paper tuned the field points, I haven't bare shaft tuned but I mean...

From: smarba
04-Jun-18
What BH were you shooting before?

Do the IW spin true on your arrows? If not, use an arrow squaring device.

What about playing with your BH alignment? For instance make the main blade vertical. Or horizontal. Maybe they are catching wind oddly at launch?

All that said I use a dropaway and despite many people loving the WB I don't want full contact with my arrow throughout the shot.

Lastly I think IW have lifetime replacement, so although it may have been frustrating to hit the metal poles I think you can send them back if they were damaged?

From: Rutnrod1995
04-Jun-18
Smarba, I am going to contact Iron Will to make sure, but I believe so. I just cannot figure out what the issue is. I am tuned up. That was checked by two different shops. I did not try fluctuating the broadhead. I just don't think it would cause this. I can group broadheads just not where I'm trying to....

04-Jun-18
Put a qad or trophy taker on there and you’ll be done. 30” is a long arrow to try and send cleanly through a full contact rest like a biscuit.

From: ohiohunter
04-Jun-18
Straight fletch or helical? Do you have any 300 spined arrows laying around?

From: Rutnrod1995
04-Jun-18
Helical fletch. I do not have any 300 spined arrows around. I really don't think that is the issue. I'll check it if I have to, but I'm pretty positive I have quite a bit of wiggle room yet with the 340 spine.

From: hardcore247
04-Jun-18
Could be a bunch of different things going on here. Just because the bow is tuned doesn’t mean they will hit in the same spot. One trick I learned was doing the same thing except for instead of a Broadhead, strip the fletching off of one arrow. Then shoot a fletched arrow and bare shaft at 20 yards both with field points. See if they hit in the same spot. The shop had to yoke tune my Hoyt to get them to hit together even though it was shooting through paper fine. After we did that they grouped together. However they weren’t iron wills.

From: SBH
04-Jun-18
So you made one shot at 20 yards 5 mins into your session that wasn't perfect and you moved your rest? I don't get that. No offense meant and I'm hoping you can get things squared away. How well were you shooting the day before and the last month or so?

If my bow is tuned well and I have been shooting well in general I would have chalked it up to human error before moving things on the bow. Some days just aren't as good as others for me. Its me and not my equipment. Is this the first time shooting those broadheads?

From: Dino
04-Jun-18
Get a good drop away rest.

From: Rutnrod1995
04-Jun-18
It is my first time tuning these broadheads. I shot 3 times @ 20 yards and they were all to the right. I in fact have never held as still as I did for those three shots in my entire life! I felt like I was a bow press, barely floating and a beautiful release... Maybe that's why I was so upset with the results hahaha

From: Scooter
04-Jun-18
If ya like the way your field points group, and the bow seems to be tuned to your liking, let it alone..... If ya like the broadheads and arrow combination, and they seem to group together, than come hunting season simply adjust your sight or rest to bring the broadheads into the kill zone... Don’t knock yourself out trying to figure out something that might not be easy to solve... Shoot and enjoy it......

04-Jun-18
In my opinion, your arrow is under spined. Do yourself a favor and go buy a singe 300 spined shaft and cut it the same length and, then try each head and see where yo are at. Do that first and be done with the frustration and headache. Just try it.

From: nvgoat
04-Jun-18
I might try a different type of broadhead before I did much of anything to my bow.

From: nvgoat
04-Jun-18
Would also bare shaft tune before anything else.

From: SDHNTR(home)
04-Jun-18
100% underspined. Possibly some grip torque magnifying the difference too.

From: joehunter
04-Jun-18
Under spine. 30 inch arrows - 30 inch draw - 125 grain heads. 65 pounds. If you are not afraid of the broad head drawn back over the shelf and your bow hand you could cut the 340 spine arrows all the way down to 28 inches and still be out in front of your rest. Otherwise move up to 300 spine arrows.

From: JTV
04-Jun-18
I'm 62 lbs out of my Bowtech, 28" arrows @ 30" draw/100 gr tip .... I cut my arrows so they are about 1-1.5" in front of the rest with either the Ace or WB... ...

From: Rutnrod1995
04-Jun-18
I am seeing on multiple charts that my arrow spine should be a 300, but why would two shops tell me that I'm definitely not underspined, they even laughed at the thought....

From: Buffalo1
04-Jun-18
You are shooting a non-vented BH which can deal havoc on arrow flight. What about your fletching setup? Your BH may be in total command of your arrow and your fletching is doing nothing to neutralize the commanding BH.

04-Jun-18
A 30" draw length takes a monster spine outta these new bows. I don't know why it is so hard for you to accept you are under spined. But, believe it, try a 300 spine and fix your problems. Or, you could keep telling the men who advise you of your problem they are wrong? I know which one I'd try tomorrow. Good luck and God Bless

From: APauls
04-Jun-18
Without looking at a spine chart it sounds like a spine issue - ask me how I know. Before doing anything else see if you can get a handle on some different spines arrows

From: Rutnrod1995
04-Jun-18
Again, I see nobody else having trouble with this solid broadhead. I have a hard time believing that is the issue. There are tons of solid broadheads on the market, I've seen this broadhead hit a balloon @ 80 yards in the Dakotas. I think I may look at the spine issue... That's the only thing at this point that I think could be causing such a ruckus... Keep the ideas coming by all means, but I definitely don't think that wind could be affecting the head that much @ 20 yards....

From: Rutnrod1995
04-Jun-18
I'm not saying you guys are wrong haha, I apologize that I'm coming off that way. I am truly just surprised that the "pros" at the shop keep telling me I'm crazy when I tell em I wanna bump that spine up to figure this problem out. Haha

I'm definitely going to buy some 300's and I bet it will fix it. I appreciate the help. Fingers crossed!

04-Jun-18
( I had ti edit)

Good luck.

From: bowbender77
04-Jun-18
By no means is it the fault of the rest. IMO

04-Jun-18
Personally I would not waste my time with a WB, and I shot the Iron Will, not impressed,,,,,,, I will stick with a drop away and my Magnus

From: SDHNTR(home)
04-Jun-18
With modern quality broadheads, the one pretty much universal standard with tuning nowadays is THE PROBLEM IS NOT THE BROADHEAD! It’s either an equipment issue, a tuning/alignment issue, or a form issue, or a combo of the above.

Don’t be surprised at your shop! It’s very rare to find a good shop tech. And when it comes to arrow spine, most arrow charts are dramatically outdated to the underspine. Cams on today’s bows are so much more aggressive than just a few years ago. Today, if you shoot more than 60-65lbs, a 125 and or your arrow is more than about 29” long, odds are, you need a .300 spine. You can get away with a .340 if you shoot less poundage, if your arrows are short, or if you shoot 100 gr Heads. And there’s almost no use for .400 spine in modern bows today unless we are talking about real short draws and/or sub #60 draw.

From: patdel
04-Jun-18
Rutnrod, most bow shops aren't very good.

At least that's been my experience. I can do better myself, with advice from people here.

Every time I've gone to a shop for help with a problem, they tell me it's fine, when obviously it isnt.

Google nuts and bolts of archery, come here for help, and do it yourself. You will shoot better and be happier.

From: Rutnrod1995
05-Jun-18
Patdel. I'm beginning to see that.... I will update on the situation if you guys want. Once I figure out the culprit. I will be working on it all week!

From: Castle Oak
05-Jun-18
Rut, first, I believe you said you are shooting helical fletch through the WB. That is a big no-no. The best fletching setup for WB is 2 to 3 degrees offset. Also, before you spend any more $$ on arrows, reduce your draw weight by 5 pounds (after you've fixed the fletching issue) and see what happens. I've been shooting WB for years and I just love the simplicity of the rest. One more suggestion: Focus on follow-through. It's important regardless of what rest you shoot.

From: Pigsticker
05-Jun-18
X2, 100% underspined. Possibly some grip torque magnifying the difference too.

Lower your poundage one full turn and see what happens. This will tell you a bunch especially if you would have tried lower weight initially.

"The broadhead hits more towards where I'm aiming, but the field point has flown wide left.... Great"

This is exactly what I would have expected. Go back tune your field points and then do broadhead tuning. you are borderline under spined but I would think that you should be able to get the 340s tuned.

From: 12yards
05-Jun-18
I agree with the underspined assessment. Especially with a fixed head. You can get away with being underspined with a mechanical, but a fixed head will keep you honest. I used to shoot 125 grain heads with a 400 spine arrow at 62 pounds and 29" draw length. Worked fine with Rocket Steelheads, but put on a fixed head and WTH?! Went to 340 spine arrows and it made a big difference. I think your shop steered you wrong on spine.

From: trkyslr
05-Jun-18
Shops can never fully tune (fp, bh, nock, paper, etc.) your bow period imo! This all takes time and knowledge of what it means that a shop will never put into it for a customer bow. The most they’ll do is paper and time the cams. You’d be suprised how most shops don’t know what nock/arrow tuning is at all.

From: mountainman
05-Jun-18
"Rut, first, I believe you said you are shooting helical fletch through the WB. That is a big no-no"

I have shot 3in helical out of a WB on one of my bows for years. Never any issue. If you ever see an arrow going through one in slow motion. You'll see the offset or helical makes no difference. It's not a nice slice through the whiskers, they kind of explode out of the way.

I agree with castles statement to lower your weight by 5 lbs and see if things line up. You are tinkering already and it'll save you money to know its the spine before you buy more arrows.

From: Bob H in NH
05-Jun-18
If you move the rest the FP will move, the hope is the spread gets closer, but both will impact more in the direction you moved. If the spread didn't get smaller, move the rest the other way. try again.

05-Jun-18
I will take issue here with one theme, and that is a good bow shop. I am not affiliated in anyway with one, but we are lucky in Wisconsin, lots of really good shops and techs who can help a shooter,,,,,,,

From: longbeard
05-Jun-18
There are 2 things I am 100% sure of here. First it’s not the WB that’s the problem, so all you haters giving this guy tainted advice about his arrow rest should crawl back into your hole. And second it is most definitely your arrow shaft. Do yourself a favor and change to a stiffer spine and all your frustration will go away.

From: JTV
05-Jun-18
I agree, it is not the fault of the rest... I have nothing but praise for the WB as a hunting rest... as I said earlier, I use both a WB and a Drop away, both work well, however, the problems Ive had in the past have always been with the drop aways, not the WB...and if you dont think a WB can be accurate... your full of crap ! Same for using a helical out of them, I can stack arrows and shave vanes at 40 yds using Helicals, Slick Tricks and my WB ..

From: Rutnrod1995
05-Jun-18
I will say this, I have always been dedicated to my Biscuit. If I do not have to change it, I won't. I love it too much. That said, I think the stiffer spine may be what I try first... I will bare shaft tune with the stiffer spine and hope that it helps. I will also try shaving an inch or two off the arrow as well. I will get these things to fly right.

From: hardcore247
05-Jun-18
Instead of spending money on new arrows or cutting off shafts reduce your pull weight to see if spine is indeed the problem

From: Rutnrod1995
05-Jun-18
Well yes, I will lower the poundage first.

From: Buglmin
05-Jun-18
Why do guys shooting compounds try to adress tuning issues by moving the arrow rest? Bare shaft tune, it's the simplest fastest way to see how the arrow flight is. If too stiff, add point weight. Too weak, try lower point weight. Can't understand why guys won't bare shaft tune and insist their arrows are fine. Nothing shows tuning issues the big two bladed head.

From: smarba
05-Jun-18
Rut: I haven't seen you respond to what broadheads you've been using previously?

Did this issue come to light when you switched to IW (other fixed blade BH flew fine) or have you not shot FBBH with your setup prior to this post?

From: Bowfreak
05-Jun-18
I would feel more comfortable with a 300 spine but I suspect it is not the only culprit. I suspect your grip is your biggest issues. It seems to be the most consistent problem causing poor broadhead flight that I deal with.

From: trophyhill
05-Jun-18
Ah yes, the good ole blame it on the rest thread. Shoot the correct spine arrow, tune your arrows, ie square tool, spin test and tune your broadheads, get rid of heads or arrows that don't spin true, and my arrows are fletched with the spine up. WB is idiot proof. You guys can say what you want about the WB, but hands down the most reliable rest out there. So I lose 3fps. So what. At 327 fps, I'm not complaining ;)

From: Rutnrod1995
05-Jun-18
Smarba I shot Griztricks and shot Montecs. Both tuned up, they were also 100 grain.... I shortened my arrows up and shot Montecs today. Then my rest snapped.... Got that replaced, but I was making progress with the 100 grain Montecs. I think I am going to contact IW and see if they will replace the s125's for v100's..... Those shot better than the s125's. Not the head's fault, just the bow/operator perhaps.... I'll update again when I go again.

From: Pigsticker
05-Jun-18
Rut, under spined would be more noticeable with the 125s than the 100s.

From: Rutnrod1995
05-Jun-18
I definitely think it was under spined Pig. I shortened my arrow by like 2 inches and it stiffened up and fly's much better, still lands right of the field point. That said, when I made adjustments it adjusted like it should have. I am going to give it one more go with the 100 grain heads and shorter arrows, if it lands similar then I will grab up 12 .300 fmj's.

From: Beendare
05-Jun-18
There are many of us here that have been preaching for many years "Don't be underspined, a modern compound shoots an overspined arrow just fine"

It seems some still haven't got that.

From: Rutnrod1995
05-Jun-18
Beendare I am coming around, give me a little time. Haha, jokes aside I ran a software and it said I should try a .300 spine arrow. I will try that to see if I can keep my s125's. I really like them outside of not hitting where I want.

From: longbeard
05-Jun-18
That a boy Rut. Sounds like you’ve got the idea now. Keep at it and good luck

From: 4blade
05-Jun-18
According to OT2, a 30" 300 spined arrow would be perfect. 340's aren't even close to being stiff enough unless you want to cut it down to 26.5"

From: Rutnrod1995
06-Jun-18
4blade, it would seem I may have downloaded the same software. I am going to knock my poundage down tomorrow to confirm the suspicions. I am going to order 3 of the .300 just to try if dropping the poundage moves the head left, then I will have a lot of pristine .340 FMJ's up for grabs haha.

From: APauls
06-Jun-18
Beendare I bought some arrows that were overspined cause they were cheap after hearing on here from so many people that being overspined is no problem. I had the same issue. You don't want to be overspined or underspined.

From: Buck Watcher
06-Jun-18
I shoot 300s from a 60/27.5 bow with great BH flight. They fly good from my 70/28 bow too. Hard to be overspend in todays world. If you don't want to try a stiffer arrow - turn your bow down 1 or 2 turns.

AND I will always have a hunting bow with a WB on it ready to go.

From: Ucsdryder
06-Jun-18
It always comes back to arrow spine but in reality there are so many potential issues that guys don’t consider...cam lean, timing, ATA, BH, centershot. With my old bowtech I replaced strings and had to yoke tune the crap out of it to get cam lean in line. Then timing, then more yoke, then bullet holes.

From: splitlimb13
08-Jun-18
"no vents on those damn things... they are catching air and planning " Pretty good assessment. My friend bought those same heads ,eneded up selling them.

From: Rutnrod1995
08-Jun-18

Rutnrod1995's embedded Photo
Rutnrod1995's embedded Photo
It was not a broadhead issue. I fixed the spine and I'm delivering haymakers at 50 yards with them. The broadhead was also bent from a steel pole. It delivered. Plenty of good heads out there, I'm sold on these for sure!

From: APauls
08-Jun-18
The non-vented Iron Wills fly perfectly fine for people with a proper tuned setup. Vents aren't going to fix that problem.

From: krieger
06-Jul-18
Dammit, I thought I was going to get a deal on some IW 125's !!

From: TD
06-Jul-18
" Then my rest snapped.... "

The rest snapped???? How in heck does a WB just snap? Something else maybe going on?

WB can be tough to tune. Shot one for years when I shot fingers. Many times what you are seeing when broadhead tuning is a "bounce back" effect from a full contact rest. Sometimes the adjustment needed is the opposite of what it would appear. They are also a bit critical as to form/follow though. In fact drop away's can make a person lazy and create bad habits as to form as they are more forgiving.

Glad it's working out, but I'm in the camp that spine was an issue but possibly not the only issue. Stating the bow was tuned "with field points"...... never listen to FPs..... they lie as to what is really going on at the shot.... FBBHs tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. FP are just the control group....

From: Dale06
07-Jul-18
I do not know what the issues is. I shoot the vented IW and they are very accurate and shot with my FP out to 40yds. I won’t shoot game beyond that so I don’t test at longer-ranges. I suspect that the issue is not the BH. Wish I could be or more help.

From: Franklin
08-Jul-18
I would also add this caveat....if a company says they have a "lifetime warranty" please don`t abuse the policy. We ALL pay for this in the end.

I see WAY too many sportsmen doing this with equipment. There is no such thing as "free".

From: lv2bohunt
08-Jul-18
What a thread! I am surprised it took nearly an entire thread before adjusting draw weight was ever mentioned. Tuning the bow ......and the arrows will save lots of money and can eliminate lots of tinkering.

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