Contributors to this thread:
When You Wish You Had A Rifle
An ar would be perfect...oh wait, you aren’t allowed to have those...
They're just playing, an ear scratch would make them happy.
Hopefully the elk will give em a swift kick in the face. Cant blame the wolves though, their just doing what wolves do
I'd prefer to have a handful of straws....
And I would do what I do n
Got a very nice FN-AR in .308 that would be perfect...
Aerial gunning would be fun. With no safe zones in or out of the park!
Wolves doing what wolves do, nature at its best. I love the guys who hunt for fun complain about wolves hunting to survive, come on guys. You all need to get a grip on this wolf thing. Be upset with the dnr for not putting together a plan to control the wolf population, it's the dnr's fault.
What’s your point LB? Wolves kill other predators that they compete with, hunters want to do the same? If we see a wolf we want to kill it, just like a wolf does to a coyote. I hunt for food, just like a wolf. I enjoy doing it too, just like a wolf.
Every time I see an article about coyotes and wolves I think about this true story and laugh at the idiocy of the U.S. Govt and their protection of coyotes and wolves:
In May 2000, the Sierra Club and the U.S. Forest Service were presenting an alternative to Wyoming ranchers for controlling the coyote population. It seems that after years of the ranchers using the tried and true methods of shooting and/or trapping the predator, the tree-huggers had a "more humane" solution. What they proposed was for the animals to be captured alive, the males castrated and let loose again and the population would be controlled. This was ACTUALLY proposed to the Wyoming Wool Grower "s Association by the Sierra Club and the USFS .
All of the ranchers thought about this amazing idea for a couple of minutes. Finally, an old boy in the back stood up, tipped his hat back and said, "Son, I don't think you understand the problem. Those coyotes ain't f**kin' our sheep - they're eatin' 'em."
I get a kick out of guys from Illinois who think they understand wolves....
Understand wolves just fine grubby, plenty of wolves in northern Wisconsin, which I spend plenty of time in. I'm just tired of hearing/reading about the same old complaints by the same old babies about an animal who just happens to be one of the best if not the best Hunter in the wild. Without fail someone mentions wolves and the kill'em all crowd pops their ugly heads up. Ucsdryder, if you blank on getting a elk/deer you go to the super market and buy your food, your not going to starve. Yes wolves are out of control, but the blame goes on the dnr, so maybe you ought to work on getting people elected who will change the way they operate. Or maybe you ought to go outlaw and shoot every wolf you see regardless if there is a season or not,maybe you do? Yes I live in Illinois, and have very few wolves around, lots of coyotes and they take their toll on fawns each year. We hunt them and shoot them to help control the numbers in our hunting areas, but we still have respect for the animal, because they deserve the respect.
The Blame goes to anti hunters and USF&W that shoved them down our throats. The antis knew if they introduced arctic wolves down here and protected them they would devastate the herds of elk to the point that hunting would have to be limited and eventually ended. Predators don’t just kill to eat, they kill because they can and if they prey is available they will kill until they are tired of doing it.
Then don’t read it if you don’t like it. There is a reason Alaska has predator control zones and liberal limits on predators. They shouldn’t be wiped out but greenies swinging from the wolves nuts prevents proper management.
Many many years never had em where they are now. Have never needed to have them, wildlife management was doing quite well.... an amazing success story actually, very much a part of not having to deal with them. Then suddenly some folks thought it would be a great idea to toss in an alpha predator into islands of habitat that his ancestors for generations did all they could to eliminate. Silly ancestors.... Just a few "crybabies" that wanted to "interact" with them...... from hundreds of miles away of course..... and now the folks who live there have to deal with them again..... as the wolf huggers draw their lawyers like they were six-guns.....
As it stands.... never gonna be free of them again on those islands of habitat.... but I'd sure like to try..... yeah I'd think an AR (AR stands for ArmaLite for the, um... misinformed.....) would be perfect medicine....
Thedude, agree with predator control zones 100 percent, not with wiping them out completely like so many would choose.
Wolves have sure done a number on the elk herd in the Gila here in NM. They kill what they want cause they can and leave most and sometimes all of the carcass. I have personally talked to hunters who witnessed tree huggers out feeding the wolves store bought beef hamburger and leaving the packages on the ground. I know what I would do if I saw a wolf here.
Wow, I see Mitchelk has resorted to name calling, lol I guess when your unable to make an argument you resort to name calling lol.
Wolves have NEVER been "wiped out" of NA. Never. Never so much as endangered.
They were removed from areas, literal islands of habitat, because of the damage they caused. If you could remove them again, there is not a living creature in the entire area that would NOT thank you if they could for doing so. The ONLY ones against it would be the wolves themselves...... and some humans that think it's "romantic" to have them..... in someone else's back yard of course.....
Totally agree with td, nobody that actually lives with them wants to save them.
You CAN NOT "wipe Wolve's out". People are so delusional... Sheesh
The only person who seems to be talkingnout jus rear end is the fella from Illinois. Like TD said, the wolves were never endangered. They were in the United States they were in the Rocky Mountains.
The local state DNR agency’s had zero to do with the responsibility of the introduction. And, unless you are naive, ignorant, or talking out your tearend, you’d know the states were doing their best to get a hold on the early on through management. Except they kept getting rejected by the wonderful USFWS andvfeeeral judges for their attempts.
These problems have not one thing to do with local governments. They were caused by ignorant people from afar, who knew how rob manipulate the system, in order to get the wolves reintroduced.
They were a tool used by the enemy of hunting to try and eliminate hunting in the future. The larger proponents of the reintroduction have stated as much. So no matter who says different, that is just reality.
God Bless men
I don’t hate wolves. My hatred is for the wolf huggers and the politicians who are influenced by them. Zero science and zero management. I don’t want to “kill em all” but I love seeing game management in action.
Mule Power as I have clearly stated before in my past posts, I agree with you, controlling the wolves numbers I'm all for. Unfortunately some ignorant individuals reading comprehension is lacking and therefore like to attack me for my stance, which is fine. True sportsman respect all animals, killers do not.
Cool pic Mule Power! Not that it matters a whole lot but where was the picture taken in the original post? Thanks.
wolves just doing what comes natural to them.....I find it hard to hold that against an animal.
There is a good reason why Interior Indians traded for Baleen.... ;)
Mule-well said. And that photo is awesome. Wow they are really big.
"True sportsman respect all animals, killers do not" I also agree. I wouldn't hesitate to pull the trigger on one, but I'd also think it would be neat to see one in the wild even with no shot available. I'm all about seeing wildlife, but there does need to be management and control. Same with bears.
Bull in the OP must have been sick or weak...... that's all they eat ya know....
I was at the U of WYO working on a masters in Ecology & Zoology nearly 30 years ago when the reintroduction was being debated, and the FACT is that the Elk population inside the Park was completely out of control due to an almost total lack of predators AND the prohibitions against hunting inside the park. And one of my friends/associates/classmates (who just happened tho manage the Refuge up in Jackson) has written a very thoughtful book (Where Elk Roam/Bruce Smith) in which he pointed out that Yellowstone was not the only part of the state suffering from an overpopulation.
But it’s my understanding that the Yellowstone packs expanded at a rate and up to pack sizes such had never been recorded, which is probably what one ought to expect when you introduce predators into an area with an artificially elevated prey base, but evidently not many folks saw that one coming. That was (arguably) an understandable oversight, but the resistance to allowing intelligent management of wolf populations outside of the park.... Well, it’s not the Scientists who are to blame for that so much as the Politics of the thing.
But at this point, it’s time to manage wolves like any other predator - taking into account the Social, Economic and Biological carrying capacities and striking a sustainable balance of at least those three.
It’s Stupid to hate predators for being predators; just about on par with campaigning to protect wolves from afar, but calling 911 when a fox or coyote shows up in the back yard.
In all honesty.... I like the WY plan. I can see wolves and grizzlies in parks such as Yellowstone where they have little effect on the local residents trying to make things work in a place where it's not easy to make them work. Ranchers, outfitters, local economies that rely on sportsmen's dollars. If the elk/moose/deer plummet in that touted "balance" it has a more limited effect (although tags reduced or eliminated in areas around the park could be argued as to how "limited").
They put one paw outside that zone and they are coyotes, not wolves.....
GF is correct - there were too many elk. I was there during that whole time, in Bozeman, Gardiner and the bighorns, working of fish studies. I spent countless hours in the mountains outside Gardiner and the land in and out of the park was severely overgrazed. Now there are not enough elk. Problem is politics for sure, not the science. Problem was the greater Yellowstone Coalition and the bunnyhuggers wanting their 'wolves' aesthetics. bunch of hooey. Fire suppression and now wolf protection is rampantly over the top. You have the '88 fires as a result, and now you have the severe lack of elk as a result, and far too many wolf predators killing every elk they can in and out of the park. They need to be hunted like coyotes, and even then they can't be controlled - just look at he coyote problems everywhere. You have too many park bison now as well, which also need to be thinned by hunters (they are to some degree, but not enough). All the elite whiners belly-aching about killing poor defenseless animals - the cause of far more death and natural destruction is the result of these fools' ignorance. You got a choice: It is either control, or out of control.
It wasn’t huntings fault there were too many elk. It was the same dumb mentality that insists wolves were the answer that saw the elk become the problem they were.
The whole Yellowstone management debacle was created by fairytale naturalists. It was a joke to artificially inflate the herds for tourists that wanted the “wild” experience. The same wild searching tourists also ate the wolf Reintroduction up. America’s very own safari experience. SMH.
I hate seeing the wolf used as a tool against hunting. I don’t hate the wolf. I do get tired of people saying that. It’s the catch all when the debate gets above their heads. The science of this was left at the gate of the enclosure pens used to acclimate the first pack. Everyone knew that was going to happen. Our opposition made it rather clear that was their intent. And our federal government shoved it down the locals throats. Using hunters dollars to do so. How friggin’ ironic. It just makes you happy to then hear someone tell you how you feel about the wolf. Instead of the people responsible.
It’s easier I guess to not address people’s concern of real life. Just blame them instead. The day the wolf hunts the streets of the liberal play grounds that saw this debacle metastasis is when justice will be served. The the farmers and locals of Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, and New Mexico can sue to see their protected status stay intact for decades too long, due to a lack of “proper management”.
Millions, literally millions, and goo, well intended scientists studying wildlife and fish, and the science goes out the window resulting in wasted efforts and money, in favor of high influencing politics and the bowing down to the whims of the elite suck-ups to the politicians running the show. Its is infuriating, when you are the scientist... I like that analogy WV - when the wolf hunts the streets of the libs. Right on. Already happening with the cats in CA. HAHAHA! Just not frequently enough.
I would say more elk are killed by auto , starvation and poachers then wolfs. and one elk out of a hundred isn't bad.
bigdog, if that were the case, the elk population now with wolves would have been the same as it was before they were intro.. Just not the case IMO. Wolves kill far more elk that cars esp., and poachers didn't put a dent in elk pops. pre-wolf did they?? They kill for the sake of killing, just like poachers., but hey get away with far more of it and keep on killing. they need to be controlled far more intensively. Th #3!! with the politicians and the treehuggers, the wolves are out of control.
Not sure where you got that 1% figure, BD, but it sounds like it might be one of those things that might be mathematically correct nationally, but at odds with what’s happening on the ground locally. Sort of like the entirely (mathematically) correct observation that the average American has 1 testicle.
But WV is entirely off base in faulting the Pro-Wolf contingent for the overpopulation of Elk throughout the region. THAT was predator suppression, pure and simple, and Aldo Leopold was one of those who picked up on it early, noticing signs of overcrowding and overgrazing LONG before the general attitude towards predators began to trend favorably. No different than whitetails just about everywhere; we wiped out the predators, banned killing females, and the easier the hunting got, the lazier and more entitled we got and next thing you know there are guys in PA who are almost in tears (of rage and frustration, mostly) because they no longer see 30 deer in an afternoon sit, and might only see 10 or 15 on a good day. (And yes, I actually read a post by some guy who used those kinds of numbers to describe how intolerable the hunting in PA had become!)
We are our own worst enemy sometimes, but it just feels so much more Righteous when you can blame somebody else.
Quite obviously Hollywood and other elite bunnyhuggers (including the Greater Yellowstone Coalition) are highly selective in their 'care' for wildlife. If they ever saw a wolf pack tearing apart and eating an elk (several in one week actually) alive, they would be outraged if they cared about the prey animal. A bunch of lib left leaning hypocrites, period. They don't care about wildlife, they care about their agenda, and that is to destroy hunting and the rights of hunters, all in the name of 'natural balance. They don't have an inkling about wildlife management and true balance, and the role of hunters as predators and managers themselves. Ignorance once again reigns.
Elk can be managed just fine by hunting.... if in fact they allow the hunting. Herds in the Breaks were getting too large, MT started handing out cow tags like candy...... herds came right back down within a few years, some said too far down. No wolves needed.
The thing about "too far down" is it can be managed as well. Shut down the cow tags and the herd recovers very quickly. Or rather, it recovers very quickly if they don't have to deal with wolf packs. AK found quickly that moose recovery in high wolf populations was near impossible. They had to knock the packs back with aerial shooting before any meaningful recovery. If you're waiting for wolf packs to starve themselves out of being a major impact..... that's a long wait.... very very long....
That "balance" the wolfies talk about only happens for a split second as prey and predator populations pass each other with one going up and the other down, up and down in wild swings. Managed properly those swings can be minimized. Managed by wolves and the "balance" points become decades apart. It's not necessary. It leads to populations actually being out of "balance" for far longer periods. And greater damages to personal property and livelihood of the local people that are left to deal with them.
My best/oldest hunting buddy lives reasonably near Jackson, Wyoming. He's an educated man with a heavy dose of common sense (an uncommon virtue in today's society). He's shown me pics of the after effects of several wolf kill incidents near him. One in particular was a deep snow winter kill by a pack not far from him. Don't remember how many exactly, but a bunch of cows killed, unborn calves torn out, and very little eaten. All in one group...thrill kill.
Here in Wisconsin (NOT illinois) they're ranging nearly statewide, but the northern packs are out of control. I've some friends in the Stevens Point area who quit hunting their home spots a few years back...the deer were gone. After the food supply dried up, the wolves moved on to fresh hunting grounds. There's a group of counties up north, famous tradition rich whitetail counties, now called the "Decimated 13".
I'm in south-central Wisconsin, and we've got em here as well. I've seen em, heard em, and witnessed their handiwork...we've got big cats as well.
I never imagined I'd EVER consider packing a sidearm to hunt my home areas, but know many who now do so.
The whack-job lib huggers in Madison (The Fairyland In Dairyland) desperately need Fluffy and Foo Foo to get snatched by yotes or wolves to wake up.
An uncontrolled alpha predator situation is a disaster. The first time I heard the term "3 S' s" was in the late 70's in a small general store in Tensleep, Wyoming while chatting with the store keeper and a local rancher over a cup of coffee one early morning. I've since heard it in passing many times here at home.
Estimate’s of wolf kills per wolf pre release was wrong. Under estimated Worley by the federal biologists. Wolves are at a population 4-5 times pre release goals. Do the math. 1 in 100 is way wrong.
GF, I'm not going to waste one more ounce of my time trying to explain to you what the statement meant, that you disagree with. I have never been ae to reason with your ability to read something and turn it into something else.
Could care less why elk populations in Yellowstone were above objective. Don't care. What I do care is that for over 20yrs, we had to sit on our hands while wolves devastated the elk, moose, and deer herds not only in Yellowstone, but where they spread into areas of Wyoming, Idaho, and Montana. Way back in the early 2000's, Wyoming's Wolf Management Plan was accepted, since it assured overall populations, and breeding pairs, above objective. For political reasons, that ruling was reversed. The slaughter was allowed to continue for another 15yrs.
As TD points out, Wyoming dug their heels in, and it finally paid off. Sure, we received criticism, even from some respected individuals on this site. Wyoming was called arrogant, because we didn't give a foot to gain an inch. Even though wolves in Idaho and Montana were allowed to be hunted, Wyoming wasn't willing to compromise. What Idaho and Montana are "allowed" to do amounts to removing a drop of water from a gallon pail...it does little, if anything. Finally, some common sense judges overruled the politically motivated rulings of lower court bleeding heart liberal judges, and placed Wyoming's wolf management where it should have been from the get-go...with the state.
Had they reintroduced wolves into Yellowstone and left wolf management to the states as they should have, there wouldn't be the anti-wolf sentiment there is today. Let people enjoy seeing them in the park. No problem. The problem was, they shoved them down our damn throats and said "sit back, shut up, and watch while they slaughter your big game and livestock"! For that reason, Yep, I hate wolves. If that upsets a few people in Illinois, or they don't understand why, don't care.
Thank God, now people can see and hear wolves to their heart's content in and around Yellowstone. But they step foot outside Yellowstone or the trophy management areas, they can be shot on site, no license required, 24/7/365, no questions asked. Exactly what it should have been from the beginning.
Wybullshooter hit the nail on the head!
Wolves eat elk and deer. I eat elk and deer. We are both predators. There is no coexisting where I hunt for supper. Same goes for coyotes. Think they are awesome but have no room for them in my food chain. Feel bad for those that had them shoved down their throats.
So Bottomdweller, whatever do you do if you don't kill? Do you starve the rest of the year? Lol
Never had that problem. Guess I would get serious about fishing.