Questionable Roads--MVUM
Elk
I'm heading to one of my old stomping grounds in a couple weeks and a couple threads have reminded me how much we need to educate everyone on just how clear the MVUM (Motor Vehicle Use Map) has made things as to what roads are open and what ones are closed. PDF's of MVUMs are available online and paper copies are free at the local forest service offices.
Bottom line in all National Forests (Unless there are still a few who haven't finalized their MVUM) is that if the road isn't on the MVUM it is not a legal road no matter how much traffic it appears to have had or how many years you have used it in the past.
Yes, this sucks for some places. I have a couple places that I now have to walk much further to get to, including a couple I just won't hunt anymore as they would be too far to get an animal out from. However, if everyone started abiding by the MVUM my spots would transform from good spots to amazing spots very quickly.
Help spread the word!
"Bottom line in all National Forests (Unless there are still a few who haven't finalized their MVUM) is that if the road isn't on the MVUM it is not a legal road no matter how much traffic it appears to have had or how many years you have used it in the past."
In areas that I hunt, if you own a ranch and back up to National Forest they are allowed to drive wherever they want on National Forest. Lion hunters with dogs get access to gate codes on closed roads in another area. I guess it just depends who you are.
Destroyer, that may be the practice, but I find it highly unlikely it is legal. In fact, I know it isn't in at least one place in NM as I checked on it in 2016 because I had permission to use a road exactly like you describe. I ended up parking at the forest entrance. Rancher may be legal to drive the roads but I don't believe a hunter would be legal.
I know this is not going to be well received but I have extremely strong feeling about this! I call BS when I see it! BLM is bending to the wealthy large land owners and closing well established named / numbered roads in the area we hunt. These are roads that our grand parents used. Most of these roads are maintained by me and my partners and or the ATV groups. BLM's reason for closure is for restoration, but the fact is that the cattle in the area do ten time the damage that is done my mechanized travel. Closing these roads basically land lock thousands of acres of prime elk country. The kicker is that the private land owners can and will access these roads from their property, the roads or only being closed on the public side. Legal or not legal will be determined in court, because there is no way I'm given into this corruption. Take it for what is worth, I'm not going to argue or debate this, this is my stand.
SlipShot, keep us posted on your efforts in court. USFS and BLM do this all the time, always have. It's nothing new, and perfectly legal because they can do what they want with the land they are entrusted to manage. The BLM sold three of my elk spots to adjoining landowners. They closed road access into another for a "wilderness study area", except ranchers with grazing leases can drive right on in whenever they want.
In another strange twist, the USFS closed a popular main access road for two years for beetle kill mitigation. It provides access to thousands of acres of great hunting and fishing, including access to two wilderness areas. If you have an elk, deer, or bear license you were locked out. Couldn't even legally hike or bike in. But if you had a moose license they gave you the combination to the lock and you could go right on in.
It is also illegal to take chainsaws back to clear those roads and trails.....according to the FS agent in charge of road closures and openings I spoke with previously. Yet I see it all the time.
That seems silly. I guess you need a wood cutting permit? MVUMs are a great tool, that should be utilized, so I agree Darrell!
Fire hazard perhaps.....liability reasons? I didn't ask why. I imagine they are responsible for clearing roads and trails and don't want vigilantes doing it without permission. Plus it allows closed roads to remain impassible to a-holes who are not concerned about breaking the law. I've seen folks drive into closed areas multiple miles in and off any road......pisses me off big time. I have spent substantial time and energy piling logs across closed roads to deter that BS. Usually after they hit the 20th pile in a row within a mile distance they give up and take the hint. Not always. I have cams out in those spots for the purpose of having evidence for the FS to pursue. I have no patience for jerks driving back into spots I've humped myself and my gear in multiple miles on foot.
Absolutely we need to raise a stink when government caters to private landowners, outfitters, etc. by closing access from the forest side but allowing it from private. However, that doesn't change the fact that the only legal roads now are the ones on the MVUM. Has the forest service gone too far and closed some roads that should be open, certainly. However, let's be honest and admit that ATV's and 4X4s have created lots of roads in places they have never been needed and closing many is a good thing for habitat and wildlife.
That is also why I objected to Destroyer's comment. There is a road just like he describes where I will be hunting in two weeks. Rancher sells UW tags and I will bet $ his hunters will be using the road from the private side into the forest. If I see them, I will photograph it, call G&F and the Forest Service and try to help them enforce it by ticketing the individuals. Will it actually happen? Will there be any teeth to it? Probably not. However, if we don't stand up for these inequalities, they will just continue to get worse.
While I certainly think there are some roads not on the MVUM that should be, I think the MVUM idea, if actually enforced, is a fantastic thing. I hunted unit 38 in WY in 2013 and compliance there with the MVUM was incredibly high. In 10 days of hunting, I only saw evidence of one violation and that was two guys who took an ATV in on a closed road to pack out a large 7 X 7. They had some crazy story about it being legal between 10AM and 2PM to pack out an animal. I was 98% sure they were full of crap but I was also a little star struck by the size and beauty of the bull and certainly understood the temptation. Since I had to drive 30 minutes to get cell coverage, I didn't do anything about it. However, what I can tell you is that it was great to hike in on those closed roads and not get run over by ATVs right at first light and the hunting was great in part because vehicles stayed on the designated surfaces. I would love for NM to move that direction but the only way for it to happen is for the MVUMs to be enforced and then respected by everyone, not just a few.
I suppose in some areas it might be about private vs public....but in a lot of the areas I hunt the Vehicle closer is so vehicles aren't disturbing the animals...and letting hunters have a true backcountry experience.
Say what you want...but there are plenty of slob hunters on ATV's not respecting those road closures and wrecking it for those of us that do.
Its because they know enforcement is rare. ...its called the honor system.
Nothing worse than being on a burmed up closed off road...and having a couple ATV's come roaring up past you.
Use the road because, "We used it back in the day...so we have the right"....well my grandpa and all of his neighbors used to burn all of their trash too.....
in 2016 I reported abuses multiple times to the Forest Service office. I was told their field officer had to cover xx,ooo,oo square miles and they could do nothing. If memory serves me the fine listed in MUVM for illegal use was $6,000 and/or 5 years in jail. I talked to a local game warden and he told me that even if he wrote a ticket for illegal use on federal land the fine was only $200 if the judge even charged anything. He said most were thrown out. The attached picture show just a little of disrespect some atv riders have.
I went back to the booklet the fine stated was $5000 and/or 6 months in jail.
Zeke, Looks like you and I tossed cold water on this thread.....
I found a sharpened steel piece someone left on a trail in Colorado Small enough where it would only stick in a boot...but about 1/2 wide so it would rib an ATV tire. It was about 5 miles in too. Gonna be a long walk for an ATVer with a hole ripped in their tire...and then how are they going to explain that to a GW.
I will try to find it and post a pic. I suppose this guys theory is; you get a bunch of those ATV'ers popping tires way back in where they don't belong and they might learn their lesson....I doubt it.
I think we are going to see more and more guys leaving this stuff for the ATV'ers that just refuse to obey the rules......
Back in my younger and dumber days, I kept a valve stem remover in my pack with the idea of taking out the valve stems on vehicles I found where they shouldn't be. Never actually did it (maybe I wasn't so dumb after all), but even the fantasy of someone walking miles back to get help and then having to explain to an authority why their vehicle was two miles past the burms (which one local tried to explain to me was for erosion control) was always enjoyable. :)
With that said, with today's phone and camera technology that allows geotagging pictures, there is no reason G&F and/or Forest Service can't send tickets in the mail so I will keep taking pictures and sending them in hoping they get tickets in the mail.
Guys what I hear here is somewhat disturbing. In no way, is ok to put spikes in the road, cut down trees , and flatten tires just because they are driving back there. This has to be more illegal and criminal than the act of them driving on closed roads. Now I totally would be upset as well but its not our place to take it into our own hands. Report them yes but that's about all you can do. Its not like its self defense here! I'm just saying that's all. I do understand the frustration but its how we handle the situation that really matters in life
Agree doing intentional harm to someone else's property is not legal or justified. Spikes in road is stupid. No one, to my knowledge, said anything about cutting down trees. Pulling deadfall and previously sawn out logs back onto the road.......I do it all the time and have no problem doing it again. FS agent encouraged it. Nothing illegal about that....but I would never cut down a tree to block a road.
I'll disagree with what you wrote Jordan, and I'm not sure why the heck FS would encourage it. What if there is an emergency situation back in some ways and the FS is not able to use the road because of all the logs pulled across it? I know some FS people would be pissed if they knew you did that.
Closing roads is an unending circle. When roads get closed, it pushes all the use on to the remaining roads. That increased traffic amplifies the issues that come with use (erosion, trash, new paths around mud holes, etc). That results in calls for more roads to be closed and so on, and so on, and so on...
Combine that with a rapidly growing demand like we have in CO and it's a mess.
Like most, there are closures that I like and closures I think are wrong.
Corey....I hear you, and understand, which is WHY I asked. The logic provided is this is not a fire road. It is not a road at all anymore. It is abandoned and closed. It receives ZERO maintenance from the FS. It is behind private property and cannot be accessed other than by trespass. fwiw
Jordan,
Agree completely. However, I think most of us enjoy the fantasy of four flats on an ATV that is someplace it shouldn't be. :) Unfortunately, I know some could take that as a suggestion so I'll clarify that I am in no way, shape or form encouraging even touching someone else's vehicle even if it is in an illegal place. (Unless possibly that place is your property then I think you could have the right to disable it and call authorities but even that could have significant risks.)
But if you shoot at an elk and your arrow misses and happens to puncture the fuel tank of an illegally parked ATV that you had no idea was even there it would be an honest mistake, right? ;o)
To echo Darrell, I have come across 2 illegal ATVs parked on closed roads. Neither road was posted, and it was obvious in both cases that NUMEROUS ATVs were using the roads regularly (i.e. they didn't look like Zeke's photo of blatant off-road travel). In both cases my darker side wanted to slash the tires and set the ATVs on fire. In both cases I elected to take the high ground, assume that the drivers were unaware of the road closures, and simply leave a note that the road was closed per the National Forest Travel Management Plan.
Had I come across the same ATVs again on another day, having been warned, my darker side may have begun to win out.
Also in both cases I called the NF ranger district office and told them they should shut off the roads with obvious berms and that I could provide GPS photos of the rigs, including license plate and was told "we have off-road violations all over the Forest, there's not really anything we can do"...grrr
I am okay with road closures. Nothing on my hunting tag says hunting will be easy or I can use whatever I need to extend my hunting career. Wildlife herd health trumps making things easy. Slob ATV riders do more than disrespect rules re trails, they break wildlife rules, too, since they are entitled pricks.
We carry the maps with us. If the road isn't on the map we don't use it. I haven't found a road yet that is closed that doesn't have some sort of gate, logs across it or a berm.
Nothing worse than slob hunters who break closed road rules. They almost never get busted and 99% of the time they know they are breaking the law. There are and were way to many roads in the National forest and BLM. Just because you have the privilege to hunt doesn't mean it should be easy access where ever you want to hunt.
SLIPSHOT... the corruption and catering to "wealthy land owners" you think is going on isn't. If there is an instance of this happening it might happen .01% of the time.
WYelkhunter,
That was my experience in WY as well. However, in NM there are thousands of roads that aren't on any map, have no berms on them and if they get a sign, it usually lasts less than a week.
Also, many of the maps are outdated (Even the most current ones they sell at the Forest Service offices) and show roads that were once legal but now are not so unless you are using the MVUM, even in WY, you could be on a closed road.
Unfortunately when they implement rules without enforcement it is a major disservice to people the that abide to the rules, no enforcement almost pisses me off as much as someone not adhering to the rules. In general NM has always been notorious for people riding ATV's past burms, gates, fences and cross country with little to no enforcement of rules that already exist. IMO these new road closure rules is complete slap in the face to those who generally follow the rules, if you can't enforce your rules whats the purpose of implementing them, try that with your kids or your employee's.....all you would get is a complete disregard for the rules!! All of us suckers are going to walk into areas and every freaking time there will someone driving in because there is no enforcement and while taking pictures and turning them in is good it will have zero effect, the people that implemented the rules are who needs to do the bulk of enforcement without them it is a complete joke, especially in NM! I really do like the concept of less roads but not when it is unenforceable, implement it in a scale that you can control, a little at a time! I was going through some of the roads that I have used in the past and noticed that one of the roads was shortened but it was really vague as to where the end of the road actually was and I know the road intimately, at the very least you need a sign stating the end of the road and what the penalty is for driving past but without real enforcement these signs will be shot up, knocked down and completely disregarded! people will drive right on past and drop hunters off then drive back out, when they kill something back in there they will drive right in and pick it up and drive right out without a care in the world. NM can't afford to put law enforcement out there in the scale it would take to enforce this, we can't even enforce all the other rules but hey lets make the few law abiding suckers watch the others drive right in.
LOL Rant over......for now
Nailed it Darrell (can't see that name without thinking about Bob Hart.....LOLOLOL)
MVUM is the ONLY current source of legal road information in the FS areas. County maps particularly are outdated in the CO frontrange since 2013 floods as Many roads were closed that still show on the maps today.
Get the MVUM map or you are likely going to violate FS rules.
I've hunted Co where they have the stakes in the road that clearly marks it as being shut off- no ATV's.....and had then come roaring in past me at first light.
I've hunted the late hunt around Flagstaff where they have a road closure map that is TOTALLY DISREGARDED by many folks. I can give many examples in multiple states.....Its a big problem with slob hunters....and the brutal truth is...if you are doing this you ARE a slob hunter.
I'm not advocating for destruction of ATV's.....but I can see where that might be what it takes to teach some of these slobs a lesson.
I've had similar experiences. I saw vehicle tracks in the freshly fallen snow on Lone Cone in unit 70 last year where they clearly drove up the hill and around the gate and back on the road.....right past the rest of the trucks that were parked there. As far as I'm concerned if someone doesn't follow the vehicle closure rules then they aren't going to follow the hunting rules. Who knows what other laws they pick and choose to disregard. They have no place on public lands regardless of their opinions. Would enforcement make it better/different? Maybe. It would take a ranger at every gate. The only way to change things is for everyone that is out there to take a picture and report it. Get the registration sticker if there is one. BHA has make a good effort in aiding enforcement. If we don't help curb the use then more an more places will get closed off because it's easier to close a whole valley and only enforce a single point of entry.
I wonder if breaking FS rules by driving back on closed roads with a motor vehicle and killing an elk and breaking those rules using the motor vehicle to bring the elk out would constitute an illegal taking of the elk, even if you had a valid license to kill that elk? If so, that might be sufficient deterrent to many folks if it were made clear by CPW (good luck) in the game brochures and on the web site..........it should be a game violation if it is not. I wonder if CBA would take this up with CPW?
Rideold - The picture I posted was not too far from Lone Cone. That year I and a partner parked at a designated area and walked 45 or so minutes up a closed trail only to have a full size pickup drive right past us just before daylight. I saw where some riders had done donuts in beaver ponds, I saw ATV tracts turning of a numbered road and traveling up a small flowing stream, and I saw where almost every switchback had been cut across. With the amount of abuse I saw in 2016, if the FS would enforce the law and meet out the maximum fines they could pay the salary of several enforcement officers and supply them with new new trucks do drive as well.
I was hunting a unit near Flagstaff 3 years ago and had the same experiences as y'all with utvs/atvs. The area was overrun on weekends and tolerable during the week. I went to the Forest Service office and reported all that I saw. The ranger's response floored me. He basically said that if they put forth the effort to patrol for these violations, they would spend all their time writing citations and going to court. I would think that dedicating a couple of years to this endeavor would pay dividends as the word would circulate that the USFS is watching you. But, we will never know.
