What line do you draw
Whitetail Deer
Contributors to this thread:
I firmly believe that as long as someone hunts within the regulations of the law, how they hunt is their business. That being said, if someone came up with a foolproof system that 100% fooled the deer's senses of sight, hearing, and smell (and I guess their other three senses) and as a result you could walk up and shoot them at will ...would you do it? That seems to be the ultimate goal of many of the products on the market.
I firmly believe that as long as someone hunts within the regulations of the law, how they hunt is their business. That being said, if someone came up with a foolproof system that 100% fooled the deer's senses of sight, hearing, and smell (and I guess their other three senses) and as a result you could walk up and shoot them at will ...would you do it? That seems to be the ultimate goal of many of the products on the market.
Nope. I wouldn't. I've raised and butchered livestock and there's no joy in walking up to them and putting one between the eyes. The chase is what I'm after not the kill.
No I wouldn’t. Pretty sure everyone here would say the same.
While it may appear that way, it may be marketed that way, and in certain circumstances it may seem like technology is making things to easy. But, you still gotta do the work. Point being All the camo, scent depressors or neutralizes, gps’s etc.... only improve ones results if they put the work in to make it work better. Same with the weapons we use today too. No need to apologize or think it’s unfair. None of us here are killing more then we were ten years ago based on that stuff.
God Bless men
The greatest satisfaction a hunter can enjoy is when their senses have trumped the senses of the animal they are pursuing.
If you introduce more “ products “ into your pursuit of game .... that adds another layer that needs to be peeled back to get to the ultimate hunt.
Often we argue here on this site because every hunter is comfortable hunting at a different peeled back level . Not all hunters are created equal.
Naw, get that close and they see you draw your bow...../grin
The fewer "products" I use the more enjoyable hunting is for me.
Cheating is like porn, you know it when you see it.
Technology wise I draw the line sooner than what is available and legal when bowhunting. Not a snob, just fits my idea of fun.
I also find it fun to sometimes be at the front edge of technology when filling a rifle tag.
It's nothing like watching an arrow fly at 15 yards but not every enjoyable walk has to be on the steepest path.
For the most part I do it the same way I've done it since the 80s. Bow, arrows, release and treestand. Still pretty much a less than 25 yard game for me.
I enjoy hunting simply for the most part. The great thing is we can all decide what's personally satisfying and where we find our enjoyment and do just that, as individuals.
If you pose the question in those words though, I doubt anyone would answer "heck yeah" so prepare for a long thread of "never, not me!" The reality unfolds when it happens in baby steps. Not saying we'll ever get there, but we ARE making "baby steps" in that direction, and when it's proposed as having one more slice of an edge, few can and/or will want to turn that down. Not saying it's wrong, it's just humans being humans. Personally, some advantages I choose to take, and some I don't.
All bets are off as long as it’s a slammer book animal, the dirty deed is filmed, and it leads to all the validation, fame, money, and poontang a famous hunter rightly deserves! All's fair in love and youtubing. I think to the overly pessimistic that is where hunting appears to be headed. Realistically, I think it's just a visible few self-promoters that earn that distinction.
Seriously though, when it comes to fooling a whitetail's impeccable sense of smell; fools and their money are easily parted. And their hearing and sight ain't that great anyway, so likewise for that crowd.
I've seen huge growth in the last 5 years of the knowledge and discussion of real hunting without the magic camo or scent potions. More focus on knowledge, woodsmanship, and the experience. The way I was taught and I would imagine the same for the vast majority of hunters that spend a lot of money each year on hunting. Maybe it's just that I seek that media out and don't tune into the outdoor channel infomercials. It's all ebb and flow, but I think the magicpill sales tactics are finally starting to be ignored and even ridiculed enough that the industry is paying attention.
That said, in other areas particularly with respect to weapons technology (self ranging bow sight was a big wake up to me) and communications (cell cams) I think wildlife agencies struggle to keep up. It's like a game of whack-a-mole with some of that garbage.
Thankfully rant season is ending though and we will be hunting soon.
according to the advertising i see those products in combination already exist to the point you can walk up and just stick an arrow in them by hand. scent lok, hecs suit, nose jamer, those mirror blind things, cmere deer etc. dead deer guaranteed.
JTV said it for me!! Hunting should be hard if it wasn't hard I would not do it!!! Shawn
Just because its "within the law" doesn't make it ethical. Lobbyists pound law makers relentlessly to expand what is "legal". "Legal" doesn't make it right.
Heck, trail cams allows 24x7 monitoring already...
It's not fun if you don't see the fear in their eyes before you rip the life from their souls. #amiright?
loprofile, the ultimate goal of all those products is to make the sellers rich. They couldn't care less whether they work or not, and they all do in varying degrees. (Even the HECS suit is camo).
But to the question. I use scent REDUCTION technology because it works TO A DEGREE, but once it reaches the point you referenced, (it never will IMO), it would truly be like picking out your steer and shooting him down. I don't do that now, so I wouldn't do it in your scenario.
Great post Drycreek. This site needs a "like" button.
The post really gets down to the age old question of hunting versus killing. I love the the chase and the thrill of the hunt.
Good post Drycreek. Personally I will try about anything but if it becomes less challenging to me I will change. I went from a recurve to a compound back to a recurve years ago for this reason. A few years ago I decided that the recurve was sometimes too challenging so now I hunt with both.
They already have that technology just not legal.....a dark night, a truck, a spotlight, a rifle No, not interested.
Where do I draw the line? I'll be the first to admit there's tons of new gear and gadgets, feeders, heated shooting blinds, wi-fi enabled cameras, etc. that add to the comfort and enjoyment...maybe even to more so-called "success" in the field...but like Chris S stated so well above "I love the chase and the thrill of the hunt", so for me personally I will not use any product that I feel cheats me of that thrill. After 40 years I still still sit on a $10 wooden folding stool of my own design, knowing full well how warm and cozy my buddy is a mile away in his $3200 redneck blind. He doesn't shoot any more deer than I do, but in my mind my hunts are more memorable because I endure the elements, I can hear every twig snap, and I can sink a little deeper into my collar when the snow starts to fly...and it's that endurance that builds enjoyment of the hunt...the ability to know I can up and move at a moments notice and not be burdened by a ton of gear, or inability to move my stand at all. Having said that I don't care how everyone else shoots their deer; if they want to sit in a box overlooking a mono culture all day more power to 'em!
There is hunting and just plain killing. THAT which you described is just plain killing. Might as well work in a Slaughter House if you want to do that. DANNY
Easy question, single string, no wheels.
JusPassin, I drew the line at the compound years ago. This is a question that doesn't need to be asked ( or answered ).
Bowmania
JusPassin, I drew the line at the compound years ago. This is a question that doesn't need to be asked ( or answered ).
Bowmania
" This is a question that doesn't need to be asked ( or answered ). " ????
An example: I killed my first pronghorn in Texas many years ago with a rifle. Wasn't much to it, those goats saw pickups every day and only a few were killed each year, so they had little fear of man. A few years later my son and I went with an outfitter in Montana, in the rut, decoying. What a difference ! I whiffed on one using the wrong pin, and wound up goatless. My son rattled an arrow between one's horns and wound up goatless. My fat ass was worn out from walking 4/6 miles a day and my son had blisters as big as silver dollars on his heels from a poor choice of boots. We both agreed it was the most fun we had ever had on a hunt.
I dont hunt for sport, so yes.
I also did the move from fiberglass recurve to compounds back to fiberglass recurves and longbows. Then I fell into the snob, holier than thou mentality of primitive archery. If I didn’t build the self bow,the string the arrows it was a gadget and some how cheating. I used to think Fiberglass and carbon recurves and longbows were as bad as compounds I used to rationalize that mentality the same way a lot of bow hunters demonize or look down their nose at rifle hunters. I used to say and think. “ If I had a compound I would have been in range and killed that bull or deer”. But I limit myself to 20-30 yards because I am the mighty B’Wana. Luckily I some how came out of my snob period. And now enjoy all bows and just being “out amongst em”. There is no doubt the beauty and grace of “traditional” equipment, but I also enjoy the challenge of mastering proper compound archery form to enable shooting more accurately and at greater distance. I actually find Self bows and fiberglass bows easier to shoot. Much less technical. Like the difference between throwing a golf ball and playing golf. One is much more technically difficult. I do believe we are using too much junk out there But, In my experience most of it is actually a handicap or crutch. Some push the boundaries. Like cellular trail cameras etc. but this is my opinion and I am not the hunting ethics guru. I still have and enjoy my Self bows, custom made recurves and longbows made by some skilled Bowyers. And I also have a brand new Mathews Triax.
Good thread lopro
I have eaten a couple antlerless type tags (Rocky bighorn ewe and Shiras Cow Moose) because they just stand there looking at you even after you draw your bow...….
It just didn't seem like a hunt.....
Good luck, Robb
Several years ago I participated in a shotgun management hunt in a fenced military facility. Unlimited antlerless tags. I'm a meat hunter. I love venison and I have no problems (usually) shooting does or fawns where legal. Mid day a tiny doe (I men like maybe 40#) came right under my stand feeding on loblolly pine kernels. I watched her awhile talking myself into letting her have a 3" magnum slug. Finally stood up to aim. She looked up, made eye contact, recognized me as a human and resumed feeding. I couldn't shoot. I took two does that day but not her. I was wrong, I know I was wrong. That skipper wasn't gonna survive a winter at that size. I just couldn't.
Bulelk1, I'd still shoot those female animals you passed up, but only for the meat, and because I had them and was there. That is part of the hunt, the challenge, just being there. Why bother applying and drawing for them if you are just gonna pass on a shot that is 'easy'? If you want a challenge, go hunt for the bulls and rams in a trophy unit, and then you have a challenge. I just think what you said there doesn't make sense. It is still a hunt, regardless of the ease of the shot. that said, I would not do what the OP posed a question for. I'd do it the way I do now, with just me, my old clothes, and my old recurve bows. But I will not pass up an easy shot at a sure thing I just obtained a tag for. Sheesh.
Where do I draw the line? Batteries and microchips. With the exception of a flashlight, if it uses a battery or a microchip it stays in the truck. High tech crap is what I go into the woods to escape FROM. It's bad enough I have to use it for work, although I have started leaving the phone in my truck while on the job unless I'm expecting a delivery or a call that's job related. It makes my day go a LOT smoother, as I can focus on the tasks at hand and not be constantly harassed by the electronic leash!
I've been in the woods for most of my 66 years, and I work outside. My senses are all I need to hunt with.
Robb, you're a better man than me, well half better anyway. :-) I might have passed the ewe, but never a cow moose. Too much good eating for a venison lover to pass.
I always mention to non-hunters that nothing turns a terrific vacation into Work quite as fast as a good hunting trip gone successful... then suddenly you’re standing there, three miles from the nearest road, looking at 600 pounds o’ Dead... and it’s all YOUR problem.
You’d be amazed how many people have their preconceived notions about hunting blown clear out of the water when you put it in those terms. Show me a Vegan who’s committed enough to pack an Elk’s worth of beanie- burgers off of a mountain from 11,000 feet down to 8500 rather than eat store-bought conventional produce...
Anyway....
The OP asks where we draw the line, so here’s where I come down:
As a matter of Policy, Clean Kills. If people are going to hunt, they should use whatever LEGAL means necessary to give them the confidence to wait for a sure thing.
Personally...
I will not alter the environment in an area to change the behavior of the animals there for the purpose of making them easier to find/predict/kill. That includes any form of bait, barriers, food plots, hinge-cuts, etc... Does not apply to scents (though I don’t use them) because they only work when you’re in the field actively using them AND if you do it wrong, you’ll wish you’d left them at home anyway.
I will not use any kind of motorized vehicle to get INTO a hunting area (although I reserve the right to drive to the trailhead parking lot or equivalent) nor will I use one to move closer to animals first spotted from a distance. Not only does that not suit my sense of fair chase, it is (in fact) directly in violation of numerous laws regarding PURSUIT... and that’s illegal.
Any form of electronic communications, no way. Not human-to-human and not device-to-device like those wireless enabled trail cams. Likewise aerial surveillance of any kind whatsoever. I don’t own or use trail cams and have no interest in adding one to my hunting kit, but anything that gives a “hunter” access to real-time information beyond line-of-sight is over the limit.
But Camo & scent control? Knock yourself out. Just don’t move, sweat, breathe, belch or break wind, or it doesn’t make much difference. If it really did, though....
A deer has a brain about the size of a large man’s fist, and a HUGE portion of that is dedicated just to processing scent. How much help do we really need?
All of that is not to say that I’d turn up my nose at the chance to fill my freezer if someone invited me to help thin out some of the surplus whitetails around here; I’m not above doing the work, and - to be honest - I would enjoy collecting one myself more than I would enjoy just picking up a carcass at a mutually convenient location, even if the kill was kind of a foregone conclusion from the outset.
Hunting implements - if we’re honest - don’t matter all that much so long as they’re used effectively. As in 1-shot-1-kill with a solid A average. Clean kills don’t bother me. Wounded and lost animals DO.
Funny so tying a fence together to make a low spot to cross is bad. Hanging a pair of dirty sucks on a limb to make deer re-route is bad. Funny what some folks do to kill an animal, funny what some folks don't do and never kill an animal. Shawn
if I was after meat sure I'd do it - that's not hunting, that's killing there is a difference
If there was such a system it sure would be fun just to observe all the animals up close. Killing them would be like shooting livestock so I would never do that. I would rather see ten booners in a season from my tree and not kill any than to see only one and take it.
I go in blind.(Know my area)Harvest an animal?OK no luck,OK.I'M still coming out the winner in the end game.Hunting is in my nature...dirtclod Az.
Got out off the tree a few years ago and went to the ground and it brought a whole new level of hunting, going eye to eye is the challenge.
Someone said they don’t hunt for sport. In this country, today, any hunting is sport hunting. You can get everything needed for survival from a grocery store. If I couldn’t hunt, I don’t know what I would do, but I definitely would not starve.
"Got out off the tree a few years ago and went to the ground and it brought a whole new level of hunting, going eye to eye is the challenge."
It's awesome, ain't it??
Of course not. And that may be the goal of some products but it is unachievable
Haha this question reminded me of the Lord of the Rings/Hobbit.. One ring to rule them all.. makes you invisible, but evil. Would you use it?
Great thread. I stopped rifle hunting in 1980 because it was as much fun as killing a deer with the bumper of my truck. No challenge. Picked up a bow and practiced on gophers and rabbits for three years before hunting deer. Gave up the compound because I didn't like having the top limb blocking my right eye and basically eliminating parallax. Love the challenge of building my own bows and hunting with stick and string. I love waiting until a bull elk is at 16 yards before I release an arrow. Like many, I enjoy the challenge. Looking forward to "Hunting Like An Animal", following Pat's ancient article that included 35mm film on the list. Sleeping bag, bivvy sack and some Clif Bars. Sleep where I'm at when it gets dark and start hunting in the morning. Few experiences make me feel more alive and at peace.
I won't say I sure would of liked to have had the Cow Moose meat and mount next to my Shiras Bull moose.
Nor will I say I sure would of liked to have the Ewe mount between the Rams and the sheep meat. (that Green tag is the Ewe tag!)
But I am content with my decision at those hunts.......…
Good luck, Robb
Just because something is legal does not automatically make it right or ethical.
“Funny so tying a fence together to make a low spot to cross is bad. Hanging a pair of dirty sucks on a limb to make deer re-route is bad.”
Suit yourself, Shawn. Where I grew up, fences were always put up for a reason, so yes, making a low spot where it would be easier for livestock to escape would DEFINITELY be “bad”. So if I wanted to be able to hunt over a fence crossing, I’d just go FIND one and set up there, or over one of the feeder trails, if I wanted to sit in a tree and none were in range of the crossing. I suppose I should clarify that by “feeder trails” I am NOT referring to trails leading to or from a feeder...
What you do with your laundry is your business, too. Setting up a pair of socks as a “poster” is no different than assigning your partner to perform the same function, IMO. But that’s just using scent and I’ve already mentioned that I don’t use them but don’t have a problem with them, assuming that they come in and go back out along with the guy using them.
I do think it’s a little dicey to deliberately put them on alert, though. Wouldn’t probably opt for that while bowhunting...
If you’re just trying to thin out the local herd and you have to manipulate the travel patterns net to get them deep enough into the property that you’ve got permission for, well, then that’s what it is.
I had a tree stand set up about 50 yards off my property line bad had to quit hunting it because my neighbors planted a food plot across the line and then pulled the top strand of wire down about a foot. The booners were coming in by the dozens and it was just to easy.
Ozonics thread is what got me thinking. I am a skeptic but if it did work 100% and neutralize the animals scent defense it would seem to be at least approaching "the line". My opinion and to each his own though.
The deal is some of the best whitetail hunters ever to live did all those things, the Wensel brothers and Myles Keller. My point is we should not make it like shooting fish in a barrel but some folks need all the help they can get or else they would never kill anything. I have done some crazy things to kill some deer, spent two days digging a hole in a huge CRP field in Ohio one season as it was the only option to get a crack at a giant non-typical bedding in the same field. It worked too, but I blew my chance at 22 yards when I shot over his back. Shawn
“The deal is some of the best whitetail hunters ever to live did all those things...”
Define “Best”...
Rhetorical question, of course.... kind of, anyway.
Just depends what your values are about. I enjoy solving the puzzle, so all of those habitat manipulations kind of strike me as looking at the answer key before you’ve finished.
No doubt they are tactics that can result in filling more tags or killing bigger animals, but I’m too cheap to pay for taxidermy and too lazy to process more than a couple deer/year, so I don’t have any great need to rack up the body count. And the more “efficient” the tactics, the less time I get to spend out in the woods.
If I want to be Efficient, I’ve got guns.
No, I wouldnt enjoy those things. Then again, I'm a weirdo who thinks hard drags are an IMPORTANT part of the kill process that I really enjoy! Man, I shot a 7pt about 9-10 years ago over a mile in, all down hill, the day after getting 2 feet of snow. The hunt was fun, but the drag... the moon rise and sun set, the snow glowing blue in the moonlight while sweating like mad as I pulled that buck. Just straight amazing fun, and hugely added to that hunt. I took the animals life, having that hard work be involved just feels like it caps the experience. Like I said, I'm weird.
Adding tech that really made me invisible would kill the fun for me, just would take it to far..
Some folks will do anything to avoid having to deal with a dead animal...... =D