Summit Treestands
Wyoming Grizzly attack....
Bears
Contributors to this thread:
Medicinemann 15-Sep-18
Zbone 15-Sep-18
orionsbrother 15-Sep-18
Altizer 15-Sep-18
Rob in VT 15-Sep-18
iceman 15-Sep-18
sir misalots 15-Sep-18
dakotaduner 15-Sep-18
Franzen 15-Sep-18
Scar Finga 15-Sep-18
LBshooter 15-Sep-18
standswittaknife 15-Sep-18
Shrewski 15-Sep-18
rallison 15-Sep-18
brooktrout59 15-Sep-18
Owl 15-Sep-18
CO_Bowhunter 15-Sep-18
lewis 15-Sep-18
deerhaven 15-Sep-18
mn_archer 15-Sep-18
mn_archer 15-Sep-18
Santee 15-Sep-18
Ucsdryder 15-Sep-18
Medicinemann 15-Sep-18
Franklin 15-Sep-18
Hessticles 15-Sep-18
Aubs8 15-Sep-18
mn_archer 15-Sep-18
Medicinemann 15-Sep-18
Ucsdryder 15-Sep-18
mn_archer 15-Sep-18
mn_archer 15-Sep-18
Ucsdryder 15-Sep-18
MichaelArnette 15-Sep-18
Medicinemann 15-Sep-18
standswittaknife 15-Sep-18
Bowriter 15-Sep-18
AZrecurve 15-Sep-18
LINK 15-Sep-18
Bowriter 15-Sep-18
Shawn 15-Sep-18
orionsbrother 15-Sep-18
standswittaknife 15-Sep-18
drycreek 15-Sep-18
TD 15-Sep-18
Smokey 15-Sep-18
Kevin Paul 15-Sep-18
orionsbrother 15-Sep-18
Burly 15-Sep-18
Ucsdryder 15-Sep-18
standswittaknife 15-Sep-18
Ranger rick 15-Sep-18
Tracker 15-Sep-18
Mark Watkins 15-Sep-18
standswittaknife 15-Sep-18
Arrowflinger 16-Sep-18
Lee 16-Sep-18
DL 16-Sep-18
Mule Power 16-Sep-18
Franzen 16-Sep-18
lewis 16-Sep-18
Bowfreak 16-Sep-18
Ambush 16-Sep-18
Franklin 16-Sep-18
Eagle_eye_Andy 16-Sep-18
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decoy 16-Sep-18
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From: Medicinemann
15-Sep-18
It's 1:59 in the morning....and I just got a phone call. My friend's nephew (Cory Chubon) just got mauled by a grizzly in Wyoming sometime in the last few hours. Details are extremely scarce at this time of the evening....but if anyone hears anything, would appreciate some feedback. Don't know the area being hunted, just know that they flew into Jackson Hole, which sure doesn't narrow things down much. Apparently, Cory killed an elk earlier in the day. The attack occurred just as they were leading the horses away from the carcus. Apparently two bears....Cory's last memory before blacking out was seeing the other bear on top of the guide, and hearing his screams. Guide is still MIA. Cory was eventually medevac'd out (thanks to his transponder), and will survive. If anyone from out that way has heard anything, feel free to update.

From: Zbone
15-Sep-18
Oh my, sorry to hear!!!

Best wishes to the injured and missing... Please keep us updated Jake...

15-Sep-18
That's terrible Jake!!! Our thoughts are with you. I hope everyone ends up OK. Let us know when you can.

From: Altizer
15-Sep-18
Prayers from TN.

From: Rob in VT
15-Sep-18
That’s aweful. I wish the best to all involved. Wonder what part of WY the attack happened in?

From: iceman
15-Sep-18
Wow. Scary stuff. Definitely keep us posted as you find out more.

From: sir misalots
15-Sep-18
so sorry to hear that cant imagine that feeling. Thanks GOD he made it

From: dakotaduner
15-Sep-18
Prayers for all involved and there families

From: Franzen
15-Sep-18
Terrible. My thoughts go out to Cory and those of you who know him. As for the guide, this doesn't sound good... but you never know. Hopefully he somehow was able to get out of the bears grasp and can come out of this.

From: Scar Finga
15-Sep-18
Jake,

So sorry to hear this brother! We will hold them all n in prayer! Please keep us posted!

Mark

From: LBshooter
15-Sep-18
Sorry to hear that, hope he recovers quickly. Doesn't sound good for the guide, hopes he's alive and rescued soon. Haven't been following closely ,but , was WY have their grizzly season out in hold by a judge?

15-Sep-18
Wow... not good.. prayers sent

From: Shrewski
15-Sep-18
Meanwhile all the protestors and judges blocking the grizzly hunt are safe in their homes, that they never leave...

Prayers for the attack from here as well.

From: rallison
15-Sep-18
Prayers sent out. I've hunted in grizzly country a few times...for me it's extremely unnerving.

From: brooktrout59
15-Sep-18
Hope he is gonna be OK Jake. Hunted out of Bondurrant Wyoming near Jackson Hole about 15 years ago.'Luckily no bears even after we shot an elk right before dark. Guide gutted elk and moved gut pile 100 yards from carcus. Covered carcus with pine bows. Went back next morning and quartered it up for pack horses. Scary stuff. Hope he makes full recovery and guide is found safe.

From: Owl
15-Sep-18
Prayers for all involved.

From: CO_Bowhunter
15-Sep-18
Prayers for all involved. Hunting in grizzly country is a dangerous game. Sorry to hear about this horrible tragedy.

From: lewis
15-Sep-18
Thoughts and prayers sent from Tn hoping for the best Lewis

From: deerhaven
15-Sep-18
Hope it turns out ok Jake. We need to get something done about these unrealistic activist and thier ability to find sympathetic judges to back them.

From: mn_archer
15-Sep-18
sorry to hear this Jake. Hope your friends nephew comes out ok and they were able to get into there and find his guide

michael

From: mn_archer
15-Sep-18

mn_archer's Link
just found this

From: Santee
15-Sep-18
Prayers for everyone's families involved from SC.

From: Ucsdryder
15-Sep-18
Damn. Doesn’t sound good. Hoping for the best...

From: Medicinemann
15-Sep-18
Shrewski, The two week restraining order on grizzly hunting was set to expire on 9/13.....but it was extended two weeks by the Federal judge.....the day before the attack occurred. Talk about ironic timing.....

From: Franklin
15-Sep-18
Another Bowsiter`s relative is involved in this attack also. The guide`s family must be losing their minds....I believe he has 5 children.

From: Hessticles
15-Sep-18
I was just hunting not far from there

From: Aubs8
15-Sep-18
Awful to hear....I hope he is ok.

Mike

From: mn_archer
15-Sep-18
As of 30 minutes ago Mike has not been located.

The amount of questions re this attack will be very long. One guy is getting mauled and the other doesn't have a clear shot- I get that. However when the bear turns on him he throws the gun to the guide? I dont get that. It does indicate however, that at least at that moment the hunter thought or knew that Mike was alive.

With todays technology i also question the need to call off the search at night. If there is any chance Mike was alive you need to get in there and get him medical attention asap. I totally understand the helo might have to pull back but with a team of guys together equipped with thermal gear I cant imagine why they couldn't keep after it.

I would almost think this was good news. Had it been the worst you would think there would be a somewhat short, easy to follow trail, with Mike and the bears at the end of it.

With them not finding Mike potentially he did retrieve the handgun and was split up up from the hunter and he is slowly moving away on foot.

I really do hope this is the case

From: Medicinemann
15-Sep-18
Mike, Thanks for the update.....it's always easy to second guess from afar. I am sure that everything possible is being done. Tossing the gun seemed strange, but hey, I wasn't there. Hopefully, we'll know more soon.....and hopefully, Mark will be OK.

From: Ucsdryder
15-Sep-18
Agreed. So easy to second guess when you aren’t sitting in the middle of absolute chaos. Does a gun shot into the dirt from 10 feet scare them? Probably depends on the situation. I can only imagine the fear that guide must have experienced. Very sad situation...

Everyone do themselves a favor and stay away from any comments sections on new articles about the attack that will sure to be coming...

From: mn_archer
15-Sep-18
Having been attacked by 2 mountain lions I completely understand that it goes by very fast. I cant imagine a grizzly on top of me.

I sure hope he is up a tree waiting on help

From: mn_archer
15-Sep-18
Right now they have 5 teams of 4 guys searching and they did not locate the handgun at the scene of the attack. That has to be a little bit of good news

From: Ucsdryder
15-Sep-18
Fingers crossed. I bet those searchers are locked and loaded...that has to be a hair raising ordeal.

15-Sep-18
Man I hope he is ok. Prayers sent and also for the guide. I was just reading the article posted above and happened on this thread.

From: Medicinemann
15-Sep-18

Medicinemann's Link
Hope I got this right....

15-Sep-18
I by no means am saying this isn't true, but to be able to throw a gun up to someone getting attacked by a bear and run is somewhat out of the ordinary isn't it? I'm probably going to get beat up on here, and maybe rightfully so, but wouldn't you use the gun to save the guy getting attacked instead of throwing it and running away? I know I obviously was not there, and am just reading the story but...I certainly pray the guide is somehow some way ok,

From: Bowriter
15-Sep-18
I have made a few inquiries and cannot find out anything that is pure fact. Apparently, this is not a hoax but as to just what happened and what is and isn't fact, I have no idea. I would, however, hesitate to make any sort of conjecture based on what little information has been provided.

From: AZrecurve
15-Sep-18
People questioning why throw the gun. Fight or flight. It’s the basic, primal instinct a person has. Everyone is different and no one really knows how you would react in that same situation. Self preservation may have been his only concern. I don’t know. Sad deal all around. I hope they find the guide!

From: LINK
15-Sep-18
If I was self preserving I’d have kept the gun. I will however hold my judgement until the facts are clear. Hopefully they are both fine and have a story to tell.

From: Bowriter
15-Sep-18
Kinda hard to tell exactly what you would when a grizz is chewing on your azz.

From: Shawn
15-Sep-18
100% agree we can all sit here and say what we would of done, but until you are there its all BS!! I would love to think I would stand my ground and try and help the guide but I may very well of got out of dodge!! I hope all is well and if not that it was over very quickly!! Hoping for the best!! Shawn

15-Sep-18
Some of this may not make sense Danny, but remember, it isn't unusual for the media to get facts scrambled. The picture may be more clear later on.

I'm hoping that the guide will be OK. I have my fingers crossed... with no gun being found, I hope that there'll be a good ending for him and his family. I doubt the bears made off with the gun. The authorities need to amp up that search as best as they can.

15-Sep-18
Understood by all reaction and probably should have kept that to myself... I have hunted moose and elk in and around that area (Unit 20 moose last year) and it is why three of us packed an entire moose out in one gawd awful trip. The bears are nothing to take lightly. The armchair QB should have stayed home.. My apologies.

From: drycreek
15-Sep-18
I hope for the best and expect the worst, but that's just how I view life. I'm encouraged that the handgun wasn't found at the scene. At least that gives hope that the guide may be alive. I agree that on our end there's no need to speculate, at least on a public forum. We may never know the full story, even after we hear it. When things get western, you don't always know what you think you do.

From: TD
15-Sep-18
My understand reading that was one of the bears attacked and injured the hunter as well. Injury to leg, chest and arm. WAG but i would think that was about when he threw the guide the gun, not while the bear was on the guide.

At this point it's all a WAG. Thoughts and prayers they find the guide OK.

From: Smokey
15-Sep-18
If you go back up to the first link, there is an update. Looks like they found him.

From: Kevin Paul
15-Sep-18
So very sorry to hear this news. Praying for his family now.

15-Sep-18
Dang. That's too bad.

That poor family and those poor kids. My heart goes out to them.

From: Burly
15-Sep-18
Very sad indeed.

From: Ucsdryder
15-Sep-18
They found the guide deceased. Damn...

15-Sep-18
Very sorry for the guide and his family.. horrible tradegy..

15-Sep-18
Prays sent out to all effected from MN.

From: Tracker
15-Sep-18
Sad ending to what was supposed to be a nice week in the Mountains hunting. Prayers to the family.

From: Mark Watkins
15-Sep-18
So sad...prayers sent from MN.

Mark

15-Sep-18
Horrible..

From: Arrowflinger
16-Sep-18
Very sorry to hear this. Prayers for the family.

From: Lee
16-Sep-18
Terrible! Thoughts ad prayers to the family. Lee

From: DL
16-Sep-18
I hope they have pictures to go shove under the judges face. My heart goes out to his family.

From: Mule Power
16-Sep-18
5 kids without a father. Not that a griz Hunt would have changed that but don’t you think it’s about time.

From: Franzen
16-Sep-18
I imagine it won't matter one bit to the judge(s), since it was a group of hunters attacked. These people would rather seen humans hunted and killed by the bears than the bears killed for basically any reason. It's a sick world. This one wouldn't have been prevented by the hunt, but maybe a future incident would.

This is very tragic for the family, and my heart goes out to them.

From: lewis
16-Sep-18
Horrible tragedy and more info is needed but cannot imagine the hunter throwing a gun to the guide then running off leaving him and flying back home before the deceased is found. I just don’t get it.The write up stated the gun was not found.A lot of questions not answered by the info Prayers and thoughts for the families.Lewis

From: Bowfreak
16-Sep-18
There are definitely some oddities in this story. I hope that we get more clarification. It truly is a sad thing for guide. 5 kids lost a father. Terrible.

From: Ambush
16-Sep-18
Lots of questions, but the sad fact remains; a man is dead and a family has a lifetime of grieving ahead. Truly a tragedy.

From: Franklin
16-Sep-18
This will haunt a lot of people for the rest of their life...including the hunter that left him. Maybe the guide was "gone" and beyond helping and that`s why he bolted....who knows.

Hunting of these bears might not of prevented this but the bears need to fear man again. These bears have zero fear of man and during gun season a shot is like ringing a dinner bell. The hunt must happen.

16-Sep-18
So sad. prayers for all involved. It is plausible however that the guide once the client started to get mauled either shouted to throw me a gun or to get a gun to save his clients life!? I’d never second guess someone in such a stressful and intensely fearful situation

16-Sep-18
We have to stay unified for the sake of the deceased and for anyone else hunting that area.

Already way to many tree hugger comments and it absolutely sucks.

Really sucks

From: CPAhunter
16-Sep-18

CPAhunter's Link
Here’s a go fund me link

From: decoy
16-Sep-18
$$ sent, thanks CPA for the heads up.

From: CPAhunter
16-Sep-18
Kinda hits home. My WY guided elk hunt starts tomorrow.

From: Ucsdryder
16-Sep-18
CPA what are you taking for backup? Pistol? Spray? Keep it on your body at all times and be vigilant when you’re breaking down an elk!

From: CO_Bowhunter
16-Sep-18
So sorry to hear about the loss for this family and the community. He seemed like a great guy all around.

Emotional responses regarding hunting more grizzlies is not the answer. Grizzlies are completely different than Black Bears when it comes to defending territory and aggressive behavior. They need to be respected for their natural instincts. Whether or not there was a season for grizzlies would not have prevented this tragedy. The risk of hunting where grizzlies are present needs to be taken into consideration before planning any trip. I've had large boar Black Bear come running into my calf and cow elk calls. I was able to deter them with an emergency whistle which always hangs around my neck. Had those bears been Grizzlies I wouldn't be writing this message.

The best wildlife conservation organizations have the health of individual species and animals as their primary focus. Those are the organizations I support with my time and money. Any emotional response to these tragedies simply results in more ammunition that anti-hunting groups can use against hunters. Let wise and calm minds lead the way.

From: Ucsdryder
16-Sep-18
Co bow hunter, I completely disagree with what you just posted. A hunting season results in fewer bears. Fewer bears equals fewer encounters. Fewer encounters equals fewer stories like this. Not sure what that has to do with emotion.

Furthermore, bears are like elk, dogs, or people. Some are shy and less confrontational, and some are more aggressive and “looking for a fight”. Those bears that think they’re boss are going to be the bears that are more likely to encounter a hunter and more likely to end up at the business end of a rifle. Is attitude an inheritable trait, passed from generation to generation? I think so. If hunting results in some of these aggressive bears being removed from the gene pool, once again this will lead to less encounters. Not sure where the emotion is?

Calm and wise minds?!!! You’re dealing with an adversary that would rather see a human bein die than ONE single bear. Nobody is calling for SSS or encouraging people to do something illegal. Time to get your head out of the sand.

From: Franzen
16-Sep-18
It is widely accepted that most game animals are conditioned to hunting pressure. Is there science to negate that theory regarding grizzlies? Add that to what was written above by Ucsdryder. Are those of "wise and calm mind" the ones who put a halt on the season for a species that had long since surpassed the agreed upon objective for acceptable inhabitance in the Yellowstone ecosystem? Emotional response accusations? Give me a break.

From: Medicinemann
16-Sep-18

Medicinemann's Link
I received a request from the families involved to post this .....

From: Michael
16-Sep-18
Very sad news to hear. The money donated is the least one can do to try and help.

From: kota-man
16-Sep-18
I’m not a scientist or biologist, but I’ve hunted all over North America where big bears live and do know this: Where bears are hunted, they are more afraid of humans period. Yes, there are still aggressive bears where they are hunted but a majority of these bears know who is at the top of the food chain.

Thanks for the link Jake...

From: 6x6
16-Sep-18
Any serious hunter that has hunted for a substantial period knows that with more hunting pressure, ANY animal you hunt will be more fearful and afraid. When hunting animals with no pressure or that don’t get hunted they are much more tame. Grizzly hunt will without a question, minimize these encounters.

From: Greg Kush
17-Sep-18

Greg Kush's Link
Found this video of the survivor talking about the attack. Just click on the embedded link.

From: LUNG$HOT
17-Sep-18
Wow! What a tough pill to swallow! Don’t know if I could live with myself knowing I ran off and left that guy there to endure the attack all on his own. Talk about a heavy weight to carry for the rest of his life. I suppose had he stayed the odds are he would be dead too. Why wasn’t his pistol already loaded? YOU’RE IN BEAR COUNTRY! And someone needs to tell that reporter that you don’t “catch” elk. Such a sad deal all around! Prayers sent to the Uptain family.

From: Zbone
17-Sep-18
My deepest condolences for the Uptain family...

Man, those are some kind of aggressive bears to come back to the site and be caught within a day after all the activity of search parties and such... Dang, scary...

From: Orion
17-Sep-18
I'd rather die then leave someone like that

From: Mike Turner
17-Sep-18
I'm sure not judging the hunter that left, and I don't mean to start a heated debate. However, personally speaking, I'm not leaving my hunting partner with a Grizzly on him. NOT how I wanna go, but I'm pretty sure it isn't how my partner wants to go either..... Prayers to the family of Mr. Uptain family!

17-Sep-18
funds sent.. thank you for posting

From: Fuzzy
17-Sep-18
So sorry for all involved and the families.

From: JTV
17-Sep-18

JTV's Link
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/09/17/wyoming-hunting-guide-fatally-mauled-by-grizzly-bears.html

From: GregE
17-Sep-18
Thanks JTV, most of the reader comments are sickening

G

From: JTV
17-Sep-18
it shows the animal activists dont care about human life .. a lot of ignorance and hate in those people ..

From: dirtclod Az.
17-Sep-18
It really gets me that one news story says that the weapon was found,and had not been discharged(Glock).And another station said that no weapon was located?

From: Smokey
17-Sep-18
"According to his father, Chubon was grabbed by the ankles and tossed off of his horse. Chubon was able to point a pistol at the bear, but the animal knocked it out of his hands. Uptain was grabbed by the same bear and dragged into the woods, the station reported."

Here's something for all the keyboard warriors out there.

From: spike78
17-Sep-18
The survivor sure says a lot of me’s and I’s in the interview doesn’t he? Wish we knew why he threw the gun instead of using it?

From: Duck
17-Sep-18
Wish we knew why he threw the gun instead of using it?

If I had to bet the hunter had already made a so so shot on the bull which resulted in the delayed recovery. Id bet the guide was screaming for the gun just saying.

From: spike78
17-Sep-18
We will never know

From: MQQSE
17-Sep-18
I can’t believe the ignorance and lack of compassion of the media. They actually spelled the deceased guide’s name three different ways in that story. Disgusting.

From: Orion
17-Sep-18
Smokey they weren't on horses when they were attacked you need to read the official statement from wyfg. They were getting the elk when attacked investigators found bear spray and a pistol at the scene.

From: Wayniac
17-Sep-18
Horrible for all involved.

From: GF
17-Sep-18
“It really gets me that one news story says that the weapon was found,and had not been discharged(Glock).And another station said that no weapon was located?”

Just depends on what info was available at the time of the report. Rapidly developing situation.... and the search engines are likely to rank older info a bit higher, just based on how long it has been available...

From: Medicinemann
17-Sep-18
I'm going to steer this discussion in a completely different direction for a minute. I can count on one hand, the number of people that I know from Wyoming, that are NOT Bowsiters. Yet, from the moment that I got the phone call that started this thread, within 6-8 hours, I had numerous PM's, well wishes, and links to newspaper articles....even though I was 1,863(+/-) miles away......I'd call that a pretty darned good resource AND response time...

From: CO_Bowhunter
17-Sep-18
UCSdryder, what I shared is based on actual restrictions in hunting because of what happened at the voting booth which is dominated by non-hunters and non-fisherman. And yes, an emotional response from sportsmen is simply more ammunition for non-hunters. It makes us look foolish. Regarding my head being in "the sand" that's simply another emotional statement that doesn't move the needle forward. Invite productive dialogue instead. We're on the same side.

I haven't seen any reputable research that proves that hunting grizzlies has any effect on their behavior. If you are aware of any solid research, please post it here.

From: Trial153
17-Sep-18
“Judge tenderly, if you must. There is usually a side you have not heard, a story you know nothing about, and a battle waged that you are not having to fight.”

Traci Lea LaRussa

From: sasquatch
17-Sep-18
What a sorry POS that guy is, to abandon another like that is plain old sad!

And Ik “you don’t know what you do in that situation right?”

Well, actually yes I do. You dnt leave another man behind. Period.

From: ryanrc
17-Sep-18
I saw on FB that ey got the bears that did it. One bear had been sprayed with bear spray......so, I am thinking to always carry a gin in grizzly country after reading that.

Also saw that a 48 year old from MN was also mauled while hiking by a different bear......unless people start dropping the hammer on these things I don't see this trend reversing.

From: mn_archer
17-Sep-18
I spoke with a LEO friend from Wyoming with friends that were on scene. Sounds like they killed 2 bears- a slow and cub grizzly

From: mn_archer
17-Sep-18
sow...

From: Irishman
17-Sep-18
Smokey, you must not have watched the interview with Chubon on the TV. He said that he did throw the gun to the guide, but it didn't make it to him. Sounds like a poor decision, but not everyone always makes the best of decisions, especially under pressure.

From: drycreek
17-Sep-18
sasquatch, I believe, since I wasn't there, that I will stop short of name calling. IF we've heard the facts, and IF the guy had the pistol in his hand, and IF he knew how to use it, then I question his judgement in trying to throw the pistol to the guide. Other than that, SINCE I WASN'T THERE, I'll refrain from further comments.

From: jdee
17-Sep-18
A lot of info on.....buckrail.com

From: mn_archer
17-Sep-18
I do have 1 question that has been bothering me all weekend.

If they were processing a carcass in heavy grizzly country, why was the gun in a pack?

From: sasquatch
17-Sep-18
They guy had the gun!! How else would he throw it?? Know how to use it?? He was carrying it? And if he can’t use a pistol don’t go hunting. Play video games instead.

Why not simply point it and shoot the bear. He was no longer being attacked!

He fled the scene only worried about himself. Hurray for me and **** everyone else.

Maybe I’m more harsh thinking but god damn man. How can a man abandon someone he’s been hunting with is beyond my imagination.

17-Sep-18
Dang drycreek, what a concept. Unfortunately, there are those that love to act like Internet Rambo's, although they know nothing of the actual FACTS! Sure easy to act tough and pass judgement sitting behind a keyboard thousands of miles from where they'd actually have to encounter an enraged griz.

From: jdee
17-Sep-18
I bet you’ve ( Sasquatch )never been pulled off a horse by a bear like the hunter was. Two bears ...probably a live or die situation.

From: sasquatch
17-Sep-18
Been in areas with them, solo, no weapon other than bow!

So yea, easy to cast judgements right??

Being a “tough guy” and NOT being a candy a** are two very diff things. I can and will face my challenges everytime vs run. Period. If I die, I die.

Old saying, die on my feet vs live on my knees.

ID NEVER LEAVE A FRIEND!

And for the “facts” I never said a word till watching the guys interview, he STATED the facts!

From: sasquatch
17-Sep-18
Nope sure haven’t, but still remains the same, I wouldn’t run and abandon a brother. End of story there!

But yea ik, I’m full of **** and an Internet bad ***

Ik ik.

And these handles show where ppl live, not where they go!

From: jdee
17-Sep-18
I hear you sq. I hope most guys would do something but it might have been to late ???? I’m sure an attacking griz is like a mad attacking pit bull.....fast and furious with 1000 times more power and tenacity.

From: stealthycat
17-Sep-18
I wonder what hunting experience the guided hunter had? I know that there are people who are great under pressure, some people fold under pressure. Some people are exceptionally brave to the point of giving their lives, some people are just not and that's the way it is.

From: Bill Obeid
17-Sep-18
And that’s it in a nutshell.

From: Zbone
17-Sep-18
jdee - Thanks for the buckrail.com link, yeah lot more details there like how the sow had been sprayed by the guide and the handgun was a Glock belonging to the guide, so I'm assuming the hunter didn't know how to use it, especially under duress of an attack... Makes more sense why he tried to throw it to him instead of shooting... Also link informed they leghold trap caught the grown cub first and the sow aggressively charged officials while dealing with the cub and they killed her first as she charged, then euthanized the cub...

Also from that link seems there was another bear attack in the Beartooths just days before this attack...

From: TD
17-Sep-18
What about the guide? Wasn't he armed in some way? Someone stated above the sow had been hit with pepper spray..... was that possibly from the guide? Are folks saying the guided hunter should be more prepared than the guide for this? One was a "pro" and the other wasn't.

The bear was on him, had injured an arm and was "swinging him around" by the leg when he tossed the gun to the guide. The gun never made it all the way to the guide. Wasn't like the bear was on the guide and he tossed the gun to the guide to defend himself with and then just ran away.

I would imagine the "run away" part started about when, you know, the bear LET GO of him. Was he supposed to go hand to hand with the bear again? Maybe i'm a candy azz too.... my first reaction after being released after being swung around and shaken by a grizz would be to put some distance between us and especially if injured look for help..... but apparently that's just me.... must be a wuss... I don't think jumping on a grizz's back at that point would have been very high on the list....

good grief......

From: jdee
17-Sep-18
I hear you sq. I hope most guys would do something but it might have been to late ???? I’m sure an attacking griz is like a mad attacking pit bull.....fast and furious with 1000 times more power and tenacity.

From: GF
17-Sep-18
Easy to KNOW the right thing to do.

Not always easy to DO the right thing.

We all want to think that we would never abandon another man to face something like that alone, but only those who’ve been there really know.

I thought it was interesting that the survivor said something about how it was the guide’s approach to dealing with bears that saved the client’s bacon, but I don’t recall reading any reports as to what Uptain actually DID, unless it was that he drew the bear off of his client.

Just one thought for the guys who want to pack an auto: can an auto be discharged when it’s shoved into a bear’s ribs? Seems to me that the likelihood of having a bear on top of you before you know what happened is high enough that a DA wheel gun might be a better bet...

From: Mule Power
17-Sep-18
TD you are way too logical of a thinker.

It’s Monday so let’s talk about what our quarterback should have done right?

Everyone is different. Brought up in different areas under different circumstances. I know a few grown men who are afraid to be in the woods of Pa after dark where the biggest thing to fear is a skunk. Some people panic very easily. I’m not a fan of panickersbut I don’t judge them for it. I just happen to have the ability to remain calm in some really dicey situations. A pissed off grizzly bear is about as dicey as it gets though! I know what I would have done but I was pretty young when my scoutmaster ingrained it into me to ALWAYS BE PREPARED. But that’s just me.

Let’s not forget that had the hunter shot his guide we would have a whole other subject to debate.

Let’s just be glad one guy survived and give honor to the one who didn’t and respect to his poor family.

From: Matt
17-Sep-18
Like Mike Tyson (and Beendare) say "everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth".

Sounds like there are some folks here who've only watched videos of being punched in the mouth. Maybe only saw it in a video game? But they just know how they would handle it *if* they were.

I think most of us have experienced extreme duress - maybe not even that extreme - and, upon relfection, realized we did not handle he situation in the most "logical" manner.

17-Sep-18
We’ll never know how it all transpired....all speculation. There are lots of different folks out there, some you would want at your side if crap hit the fan and some you wouldn’t. Really sad for the guides wife and kids.

17-Sep-18
It's been shown in wars for well over 100 years, that during battle, there are some guys that do all the shooting and some guys that load the guns and give them to the guys that do the shooting. It's because some guys can't get themselves to shoot at human targets even though they really want them to die before they get over the hill they're on.

It just seems bizarre to throw a gun to someone who's being mauled when you could shoot it yourself at close range. Maybe he was afraid to hit the mauling victim, but I still don't understand it.

If I'm ever being mauled by a bear, I hope none of you throw me a gun. Shoot the bear. If you hit me, I forgive you in advance.

From: Matt
17-Sep-18
"It just seems bizarre to throw a gun to someone who's being mauled when you could shoot it yourself at close range. Maybe he was afraid to hit the mauling victim, but I still don't understand it. "

The hunter stated he was being swung around by the bear and tried (unsuccessfully) to throw the gun to the guy who wasn't.

From: drycreek
17-Sep-18
Again speaking for myself, if we are hunting together and a bear attacks me, please don't try to shoot him off me unless you are a very good marksman and cool under duress. You can be damn sure I'll have my own pistol and it will already be hot at that point if I've had the time to pull it. If I haven't, we're probably both gonna be bear shit tomorrow.

From: Franklin
17-Sep-18
What do you expect of your guide in this situation....would you expect HIM to run and leave you. For those that have hunted dangerous game or gone to Africa....would you expect your guide or PH to run away in the face of danger. It`s a unsaid deal....you`re both in it together....to the end. Sorry but zero respect for "Carl Lewis".

From: MQQSE
17-Sep-18
I was charged by a Grizz and had the guide run past me. It happens. That’s an entire other story.

Always have your weapon ready and be able to use it within 2 seconds. Don’t depend on anyone but yourself and consider help from others a bonus.

Prayers to all involved.

18-Sep-18
Matt, it still doesn't make sense to me. If I'm going mano y mano with a bear, I'm not going to throw my pistol.

They lack opposable thumbs. They can't throw you. They can only swat, scratch, and bite. If you can throw a gun, you can point it, or at least try. It just seems bizarre to me.

From: TD
18-Sep-18
I don't consider what the hunter did to be "running away" at all. He had ALREADY been mauled by the bear, tossed his gun to the guide WHILE he was being mauled. Some seem to think he was just standing there watching it all doing nothing, but if what I read was correct, the hunter was the first one attacked. The bear finally tossed him away for whatever reason (maybe the guide? who knows, if so he likely saved his clients life) but the hunter had already been inflicted some serious injuries by the bear, what extent I don't know, but enough to be medivaced out. Arm, chest and leg injuries. What exactly was he to do? Yell "hey bear!"? And to add to things.... there was a SECOND bear, likely a bit agitated as well.

.

IF one of the bears had bear spray used on it during the attack...... it wasn't exactly effective. Unless it was the one that didn't attack? Going to take some real CSI to figure out the sequence of events. If nothing else comes from this, maybe some education into what to do and what not to do will come out of it.

A sad tragedy for sure that will effect the living the rest of their lives.

From: Matt
18-Sep-18
"Matt, it still doesn't make sense to me. If I'm going mano y mano with a bear, I'm not going to throw my pistol."

Respectfully, trying to apply the standard of "sense" in a situation like this is nonsensical.

It makes me wonder how many grizzly charges the critics have collectively faced?

From: TD
18-Sep-18
My dog will toss things a good ways, usually after she shakes the crap out it. =D

One arm had injury, that was stated a few times so far, I don't know to what extent nor which arm..... maybe the guide was calling for the gun while the bear was attacking the hunter.... I don't know. One report said the bear had him by the back of the leg. If you were on your face while being shaken around that would make it tough to bring the gun to bear.... so to speak. I don't know. Neither does anyone else.

But I do know it's not fair for some to be calling anyone who literally survived a grizzly attack with injury any names, much less questioning his "courage". The whole story isn't known. But from all I have read, there is likely not much that anyone can really say other than he was one of two victims of a grizzly attack and the only one to survive it, with injuries.

If there is any "fault" IMO it is with the bears. I don't really care if "the bears were doing what bears do" If that were actually the case then bear hunters should be let to do what bear hunters do...... I'm not big on double standards.....

Ryanrc saw where one of the bears had been sprayed with bear spray. Right now I am more interested in if the guide had used spray (which may make sense? or was the guide totally defenseless?) or if the spray was used by those tracking the bears? Or some other party used spray on them? Or if indeed any spray was used at all.

From: Zbone
18-Sep-18
TD - "Someone stated above the sow had been hit with pepper spray..... was that possibly from the guide?"

Read my post just above yours again - "the sow had been sprayed by the guide and the handgun was a Glock belonging to the guide"

That is what the link printed... Don't know what more to say for you to understand... The guide had bear spray (likely on his person) and used it,,, and the gun must have been somewhere between the guide and hunter, (likely on one of the horses) and the hunter has able to reach the gun and toss it, likely because he didn't how to use it... Think I read somewhere the gun wasn't loaded... Personally, I've been shooting guns for a half century, even shot completion for a while, but have yet to shoot a Glock, so I don't even know where the magazine release or slide release and safety are... Am sure if I had one in hand for a minute or two could figure it out, but first time handling one while being chewed on by a grizzly, I could understand why he tossed the gun towards a person that knew how to use it... I've been told Glocks don't have safeties, the trigger is the safety... Okay, it's a double action pistol, I understand how they work, but have never owned or even shot one before and I've been shooting a long time... Am not giving the hunter an excuse, just saying he probably never handle that gun before... Why he didn't have his own firearm, couldn't say...

Back in the day I was 18 years old and attended a professional hunting guide school in Montana... There was about half a dozen or so of us students, (can't remember exact number), but anyhow, after the first week or so at the ranch we traveled back on horses and camped for a few days in the Bob Marshall Wilderness Area... Grizzlies were rare in the lower US back in that day, but we camped near Scapegoat Mountain which had the highest concentration of grizzlies in the lower 48 at that time... The professional outfitter would not allow us to carry our own gun back into the wilderness... (looking back, that was dangerous) Never forget trying to sleep at night in thin skinned tent without a weapon with beavers slapping their tails close outside at something in the darkness... Was really unnerving... First night around the campfire the outfitter showed us his revolver and explained that is why we students weren't permitted to carry because he was carrying... Sounds silly, but that's the truth... He was the only one packing in the group while in grizzly country... He didn't let any of us to handle the gun around the campfire that night but it was a revolver (either .357 or .44 mag, don't remember) simple to use, not like some of these complex double action autoloading pistols...

Am guessing this guide told his hunter he had the Glock, but hadn't instructed him how to use it... Also, this is another instance of bear spray failing to deter an attack... Personally I'd never enter grizzly country, especially recovering a bleeding elk without some kind of firearm strapped, locked, and cocked on my side at ALL times...

From: TD
18-Sep-18
My apologies Z, must have posted it while i was typing and didn't catch it. Takes me a while to type sometimes.....makes sense the guide had something going WRT known bear issues.

I have heard several AK guys saying they were not fans of bear spray...... in their opinions a pizzed off grizz won't quit because of it any more than a non-nervous system (brain/spine) firearm hit will stop them when they are intent on pressing an attack home. These bears seem to be able in cases to eat pain and discomfort and turn it into rage.

Glocks aren't double action per se and no "hammer" like some semi-autos, they have a center "safety" in the trigger, like a trigger that must be lightly pressed a bit (from the center of the trigger) to unlock the main trigger, a normal straight back pull on the trigger and they fire, but theoretically a glancing touch, bump or hit from any other angle and they won't. It's a good and reliable system, mine has never been any issue and they are fairly well proven in combat type situations, as much as any sidearm. But if you don't have one in the chamber you're gonna have to rack one in first for sure.

From: Zbone
18-Sep-18
See, I didn't know that about Glocks... Thanks for sharing... The only time I can remember handling a Glock was years ago (when they were a hot item) at a gun shop and having small hands, it felt like holding a 2x4 to me... Don't remember the caliber or model but didn't care for it... I'm a 1911 guy...8^) Carried a Colt 10mm Delta Elite while in the backcountry... It was a little heavy to carry and have on you at all times, so no longer have it... Haven't been in the backcountry for years but when I do, will keep a shotgun for camp and a small compact lightweight 9mm or .380 on my person at all times... I know, I know before everyone starts flaming me those calibers being inadequate for grizzly defense, but its better than nothing, at least it will be on my person at all times where as I'd set the 10mm down from time to time... That's not good in griz country as the tragic incident indicates...

As the saying goes, "Whats the best gun for self defense, the one you have on you."... I'll never trust bear spray...

A 9mm solid has deep penetration and a hit to the skull will instantly kill a grizzly, and now a days there are .380+P loads to rival 9mms... Have a little .380 LCP will carry on me in backcounty at ALL times even setting at the campfire with 12 gauge a few feet away... Might not be adequate, but may save my life from a man or a beast...

Sorry, didn't mean to get off topic... Again, my condolences to the Uptain family...

From: DonVathome
18-Sep-18
I do not agree with the hunter tossing the handgun. I would not have left the other guy that I am sure of. No I’ve never had a grizzly bear chewing on me and yes there is a remote chance it would change what I think I would’ve done.

What sticks with me is after he got 50 or hundred yards had time to calm down and think. At that point he still did not go back. Maybe would take two or 300 yards to regain your composure.

The split second decision to run is one thing following through with it is an entirely different thing.

From: GF
18-Sep-18
“What sticks with me is after he got 50 or hundred yards had time to calm down and think. At that point he still did not go back. Maybe would take two or 300 yards to regain your composure.“

Don’t forget that there were 2 bears. I’m sure the client didn’t. He probably wasn’t going to be able to come off of the panic while he could hear the sounds of the attack, and was probably terrified of what might happen or what he might see if he did go back. This bear had already proven herself willing and able to take on 2 uninjured men, and she had back-up.

Sure it would be a comfort to many if a skilled tracker could recreate the sequence of events and explain why the guide was found at some distance from the kill site. I guess they had to go looking for him...

From: Fuzzy
18-Sep-18
y'all are funny. the bear attack was not.

From: mn_archer
18-Sep-18
some of these responses are almost laughable. Lots of macho, macho men here.

Having been attacked by 2 wild animals that could have killed me (mountain lions) and it was well documented in the news and here on the bowsite, I feel like I have a unique perspective on this.

I too gave lots of questions.... Why would someone who had control of a gun toss it?

Why wasnt the guide carrying a gun on his person?

Why was the search called off the first day?

Why does it look like the hunter only has minor superficial scratches after being "swung around by a grizzly?" The list goes on and on but the fact is none of us were there. Its likely none of us have ever been attacked by one, let alone two Grizzlies. I've encountered Grizzlies at close range either hunting or hiking several times in Alaska, Montana, and Wyoming and they are all unique and highly unpredictable. I just can't imagine a scenario where I would be processing or packing meat in grizzly country and I wouldn't have a firearm on my person at all times.

From: c3
18-Sep-18
In the hunters defense, if the gun were an auto, not locked and loaded before the attack and his other arm were to be injured, he might not have been able to jack one in while being flung around by the bear and thus tried to throw the gun to the guide.

I have a crazy story from hunting Montana opening day this year. Heard 6 gun shots close to us. Sounded like one, then 10 seconds later 5 more shots like you'd hear from a revolver. My buddy and I were like "what the hey was that?". Not more than 30 seconds later we hear branches breaking and crashing coming toward us. We thought it was elk spooked and reached for our bows.

Low and behold it was a yearling grizzly hauling a$$ straight at us. As I stepped over my pack to grab my camera, I said "f that" and grabbed my semi auto pistol and jacked one in. That sound made the bear stop dead in his tracks at 18 yards! My buddy always carries his 10mm with one locked and loaded at all times and had it aimed at the bear. As I poked my head out from around the tree we were on either side of to take aim, he bolted as fast as any animal I've ever seen move in the woods... fortunately. Needless to say having your gun at the ready at all times in grizzly country is imperative if you want to ensure you can save your and/or your hunting partners lives when it counts.

Casting bad thoughts about the hunters actions in the Wyoming case was my first thought too, but after replaying my situation, the exact same thing could have happened to me as I wasn't prepared to take action in a moments notice. I've always carried a double/single semi auto decocker so my first shot will be double action like a revolver and single from there on. That way I will always have it on my waist belt or in my pocket with one in the chamber at all times.

If anyone knows the story of those gun shots in the Centennial's opening day, please let me know. We went looking for what happened and never did find anyone to find out what the story was.

Cheers and be safe out there folks, Pete

From: Norseman
18-Sep-18
Sad for all involved. My heart goes out to the guide’s family...I can’t imagine the grief.

We all have lots of questions, some are very frustrated at the lack of straight news that paints the picture of the events that took place leading up to this tragedy. I’m mad too, with the info I know, but I don’t know the facts yet.

But I feel everyone posting here is wanting to know what happened and adding comments wants to resolve this to help so this never happens again, and wishing it could have been avoided.

My main concern/question is why only 2 people, One clearly inexperienced we’re going to retrieve the elk after being left overnight with 12 hours of scent of dead elk in the air. Why no one was standing guard with a high powered rifle or shotgun. This should be standard when retrieving game in Griz country.

From: Hessticles
18-Sep-18
2 weeks ago we hunted in the heart of griz country in Wyoming, between the 3 of us we had a .357 revolver, semiautomatic 10mm, and a 12 gauge with 000!

From: T-BONE
18-Sep-18
Prayers from Georgia to the families

From: Rut Nut
18-Sep-18
I think Mule Power hit the nail on the head!

I had a lot of the same questions some of you had at first glance. But it is EASY to sit safely behind a computer screen and second guess the "what ifs" all day.

I think I have a pretty good idea of what may have happened, but out of respect for the deceased and the survivor I will wait to see if and when it comes out.

I think the hunter was from FLa and likely did not have a lot of experience hunting the west, since he hired a guide. May not have even had much experience with handguns.

And as some have said, since I, like most of us have had no experience being attacked by a Grizzly, I will not comment on what I would do or would have done. Nobody really knows until they are in that situation.

I could not imagine the pain, horror and confusion of being mauled by an 800 lb killing machine. I was in a life threatening situation a few months ago and it was all I could do to just remain calm and clear headed. I could not imagine having to do that with a Grizzly gnawing on my leg! : (

Prayers going out to all those involved!

From: stealthycat
18-Sep-18
"Nobody really knows until they are in that situation. "

Can you imagine it? I've been in grizzly country some - not much. I've hunted western states, backpacked and tented and I always think ahead on what I'd do or not do in every scenario I can imagine.

A grizzly attack .... I can only imagine it. I can also imagine not leaving a man being mauled by a bear, I just don't think I would. I've risked my life for others before, when its happening the life of the other person seems more important than your own.

Everyone is different I know ...... can you imagine how this hunter is going to live the rest of his life? I'd have a hard, hard time believing there isn't going to be regret there, deep regret.

From: Ironbow
18-Sep-18
Rut Nut makes some valid points. How do we know the hunter had any experience with a gun? I hunt with a guy that doesn't like pistols. He might not know what to do with one, meaning put it into play when lives are on the line. If the hunter had little experience, and none around bears, he simply wanted to get out with his life.

Don't forget, there were TWO bears. I am assuming one continued chewing on the guide when the other went after the hunter. If bears are like dogs, they will work together. Could be why the bear after the hunter went back to the guide to help his buddy.

I have seen guys trained in the medical field lock up when stuff hits the fan. Some folks just don't do well in extreme situations. No fault of the person, everyone is wired different.

Never dealt with a bear charge, but I have had some very aggressive dogs try to munch on me. It happens wicked fast. I am a firm believer in pepper spray, it has saved me from mean dogs, but you best get out of the area as quickly as possible. They will recover fairly quickly, and some will run, some want another try at you.

Praying for the family, I know a local couple that knew the guide. And how about everyone make a donation on Go Fund Me for those kids and his wife?

From: Rut Nut
18-Sep-18
"Imagining" what you would do and actually DOING IT (in that life threatening situation) are 2 very different things! That's all I was saying.

From: Orion
18-Sep-18
He wasn't hurt that bad this took place last Friday and he was back in Florida by the weekend??? Seems he was in good enough condition to do more than run away.

From: Hessticles
18-Sep-18
Ironbow, mark was able to use bear spray on the sow that killed him, they found traces on her after they killed the bear. I'll use a pistol or shotgun anyday over bear spray!

From: Stick
18-Sep-18
This is disturbing.

I have a hunt booked for September of 2019 with Swift Creek Outfitters. Their base camp is about 5 miles from Moran Junction. The last time I was there was in 2012 and one of the guides and the hunter he was guiding had an encounter with a large boar grizzly not all that far from where this attack took place. The bear didn't charge but got way too close for comfort according to them.

I think packing a side arm might not be a bad idea...

From: LUNG$HOT
18-Sep-18
“I think packing a side arm might not be a bad idea...“

I’d say it’s a requirement and not optional! Be safe.

18-Sep-18
Bring a side arm AND bear spray. It's not that tough to wear both.

From: MQQSE
18-Sep-18

MQQSE's embedded Photo
MQQSE's embedded Photo
Here is a photo of a friend using bear spray. All I can say is deploy it low to the ground, hope the wind is right and hope it works. The entire canister empties in a matter of seconds.

Which would you pull first? When I was charged in Alaska I used my gun and didn’t even remember I had spray on my hip until about an hour later. Just food for thought.

From: Mr.C
18-Sep-18
sad story prayers for the familys...and people ask why a carry a big heavey 45 while hunting

From: Jaquomo
18-Sep-18
Didn't say where the bear was sprayed. If they were rolling around and he frantically emptied his can and didn't hit her in the face it wouldn't do any good anyway. I have an acquaintance who is a grizzly researcher. She has had many charges and swears by bear spray vs trying to operate a sidearm accurately under extreme duress with only seconds to react.

From: Zbone
18-Sep-18

Zbone's Link
Again, bear spray was used and failed to deter or end this attack:

" Game and Fish officials say they are certain they got the bears involved. Uptain was able to deploy bear spray during his struggle and the larger sow grizzly had traces of it on her when captured. "

https://buckrail.com/game-fish-we-got-the-right-bears-one-was-sprayed-more-details-of-the-encounter/

From: Hip
18-Sep-18
Bear spray is for people who value the bear's life more than their own in my opinion. Other than staying home a firearm is your best defense, again in my opinion. Hip

From: GregE
18-Sep-18
Just loaded 230 gr solids for mine.

It was going with me before this happened but I hope someone will learn and take measures to prevent another occurrence.

From: LBshooter
18-Sep-18
I have read guys saying that we should not analyze this situation, and I say bull. First of all there is no doubt that this is a horrible and tragic situation, feel bad for the guide and his family. Now, discussing this topic as to what one would do isn't macho or tough guy talk, it's actually making guys think about the what if. It's like taking a defensive pistol class, unless you think about/practice the what ifs you won't perform when the unfortunate episode hits. I watched the interview of the Hunter, and I have to say he didn't sound like a guy that has been tramatized and his wounds from a pissed off grizzly don't look bad at all, I wonder how quick he turned and left. A buddy of mine was in CO last week elk hunting and was talking with a conservation officer and this attack came up, the officer told him that bear spray doesn't work, and that a gun is you best option. If your going into big bear country, packed the heaviest caliber that you can fire accurately and put as many rounds on target in a hurry and hope for the best. A 44 mag hurts with hot loads and tough for most to put multiple rounds on target, a Glock 20 or 29 is a comfortable gun to shoot. 10 to 15 rounds of a hot gas check solid 10 mm should do the job, if not you'll meet your maker alittle sooner than planned and at least you went out doing what you loved, hunting.

From: spike78
18-Sep-18
I own 3 handguns in 9,40, and 44 mag and I will admit I need way more practice before using one in a self defense situation against 2 and 4 legs. Shoot quickly at a range target then imagine doing the same but adding in the butt pucker factor. I may take the bear spray.

From: Ucsdryder
18-Sep-18
Mqqse, I guess I assumed it would shoot further. A bear running 40mph will run your ass over well before it feels the spray. I carry a g29 with 230 grain hard cast with an after market barrel which solves the tumbling issue. I’ll take my chances vs spray. Not sure what I’d do in that situation but if I ran away it would be with an empty magazine.

From: BS
18-Sep-18
Dragged off his horse? My Arse!!!

Chubon is a damn coward! He left Uptain to die by himself.

Not to mention the coward skipped town before Uptain was even found dead or alive.

Hope the guilt kills him.

From: BS
18-Sep-18
The vegan tree hugging bunny humping unarmed backpackers that got attacked in the beartooths didn't run away and abandon their buddy to die.

From: BS
18-Sep-18
In Chubons own words Uptain saved his life. So instead hanging around waiting to see if the man who saved your life is found, Chubon catches the first flight out of town and runs home to mama.

From: BS
18-Sep-18
all you guys saying bear spray doesn't work. there sure are a lot of documented grizz attacks that were stopped with spray. including several this year. a lot more than with a hand gun. I know maybe all the ones with hand guns aren't reported? carry on.

From: TD
19-Sep-18
Well.... thanks much.... always good to see from where the BS flows........

From: Mule Power
19-Sep-18
We really have no idea what the exact circumstances of the gun were. I’d say it’s the professional hunter’s job to be prepared though. Not the client. He’s out of his element which is why he hired a guide.

To bring up another attack with a completely different set of circumstances is “so internet”.

Let’s just keep it simple.... if you were just chewed on by a grizzly bear that subsequently gave you a blink of an eye opportunity to save your own life and you had no ability to save the other guys life what would you do? I’ll answer for you..... you wouldn’t act which requires a calculated thought process.... time. You’d react! He may have done things differently if he had it do do again but who hasn’t said that at some point in their life?

You guys are rough! But I guess speaking from your personal experiences being mauled by a bear you have every right to judge.

From: scentman
19-Sep-18
Very sad, prayers for all involved.

From: Rut Nut
19-Sep-18
Only 2 people really know what happened. WHo knows...................................maybe the guide yelled at him to RUN- GET OUT OF HERE- GET HELP etc.....................

From: woodguy65
19-Sep-18
Somebody else can add the link - not sure how. I believe this is the latest info on the tragic incident.

https://www.jhnewsandguide.com/news/environmental/article_b4d14d59-e76a-5da6-9929-b9422416a744.html

From: jdee
19-Sep-18
Killer griz never slowed charge Bear spray likely not deployed until after initial attack, officials say. By Mike Koshmrl Sep 19, 2018 Updated 6 hrs ago 2

Uptain Fatality Map Buy Now

Uptain grizzly death Wyoming Game and Fish Department large carnivore biologists Mike Boyce, Brian Baker and Dan Thompson keep their heads low as a helicopter descends at a staging area near the Buffalo Fork River. Minutes later, the trio of biologists were inserted onto the slopes of the Teton Wilderness’ Terrace Mountain, tasked with checking foothold shares that were set to trap the pair of grizzly bears suspected of killing hunting outfitter Mark Uptain. MIKE KOSHMRL / NEWS&GUIDE Facebook Twitter Email Print Save The grizzly bear that caused tragedy high in the Teton Wilderness never let up from a full-bore charge before hitting the Jackson Hole outfitter she fatally mauled.

When the approximately 250-pound sow bruin first came into view, pounding downhill out of a clearing, Mark Uptain was removing the head of a four-by-four bull elk for his client, Corey Chubon.

It was Friday afternoon, and the elk’s four quarters had been removed without any sign of bears. Chubon had killed the elk with an arrow the day before, but the hunters didn’t find the carcass until Friday. Even so, the hunters saw no sign grizzlies had touched it.

The sow grizzly, in other words, was not coming back to claim her meal. Her 1 1/2-year-old male cub was nearby, but ultimately he was watching from the outskirts and wasn’t being threatened. Nevertheless, she was not bluffing.

“It just came on a full run,” said Brad Hovinga, who supervises the Wyoming Game and Fish Department’s Jackson Region. “There was no hesitation.”

Even for grizzlies, which are inherently protective and aggressive animals, this is unusual behavior.

“A female with a yearling attacking in this manner, I’ve never dealt with that,” said Dan Thompson, Game and Fish’s large carnivore chief.

The now-dead grizzly, around 10 years old, was in good shape, with plenty of fat and nothing outwardly wrong.

Chubon, who did not respond to repeated requests for interviews, provided the above account to Wyoming Game and Fish investigators. The Florida man, who was on a guided Martin Outfitters bow hunt with his father, relayed his recollection to Game and Fish at length on several occasions.

As the bear first hit Uptain, who carried bear spray in a hip-slung holster, Chubon went for a Glock that his guide had left with their gear a few yards uphill. For some reason, he could not get the handgun to fire. When the female grizzly diverted her attention away from Uptain and toward the Floridian, he tossed the pistol to his guide. Evidently, it didn’t make it to Uptain, who was a lifelong elk hunter, small-business owner and family man.

Within moments, the bear turned back toward Uptain. Chubon, whose leg, chest and arms were lacerated by the bruin, ran for his life. His last view of Uptain, which he relayed to investigators, was of the guide on his feet trying to fight off the sow.

In an interview with the Orlando, Florida TV station WKMG, he described Uptain as his hero.

“I’m just extremely blessed and fortunate to have made it out of this situation alive,” Chubon told WKMG.

Bolting from the chaos, Chubon huffed it uphill to the duo’s horses, mounted one and rode uphill to a ridgeline near the crest of 10,258-foot-high Terrace Mountain in the Bridger-Teton National Forest. Amazingly, he caught a signal to phone authorities, who flew in to rescue him. Teton County Undersheriff Matt Carr, who was among the first responders, said the call out was a feat in itself.

“I’m not quite sure how he did that, because there’s no cell service out there at all,” Carr said. “That’s something we could not duplicate when we were there on the scene.”

Using the description from Chubon, searchers in a helicopter were able to locate the elk carcass that caused conflict around 7 p.m. Friday. There was less than an hour of daylight left, and the call was made to suspend the search until sunup Saturday.

“We ran out of flight time,” Carr said. “Helicopter restrictions don’t allow us to fly past a hard-and-fast time. And by that point, we couldn’t get ground teams in. The risk to the rescuers was far too great at that moment.”

It will never be known exactly what unfolded between the grizzlies and Uptain after Chubon left the scene.

When Carr and Game and Fish wardens Jon Stephens and Kyle Lash arrived at the quartered elk early Saturday morning to continue the search, they initially assumed that a drag mark heading downhill was from Uptain. Later, investigators discovered this was the slick left from the elk’s gut pile.

“It was confusing, because there was blood and struggle and debris from the elk dying,” Hovinga said. “There was a blood trail from the wounded elk coming in. On the scene, it was difficult to determine whose blood was whose.”

The gut pile drag mark heading downhill drew searchers attention away from where Uptain had died 50 yards uphill from the elk carcass, in a grove of timber. The nature of the 37-year-old’s fatal injuries and lack of a drag trail uphill suggest that he was able to walk after the initial attack, about 50 yards, but ultimately was killed by the grizzlies near where he was found.

“From the nature of his injuries, his death was pretty instantaneous,” Teton County Coroner Brent Blue said. “His fatal injuries were fatal instantly. He wasn’t going to be walking after the fatal injury.”

Bites to Uptain’s head likely ended his life, Blue said. Although there was massive trauma, his body was intact and showed no signs of having been fed upon.

At some point during the struggle, Uptain was able to douse the adult sow with bear spray, which has a high probability of thwarting an attack.

“When we were looking at the [adult female bear’s] head,” Hovinga said, “we could smell it, and we could feel it.”

Hovinga was quick to point out that bear spray was not put to use at the time of the initial attack — perhaps because there wasn’t time.

“We feel that he deployed that bear spray sometime after the initial attack, but before he succumbed to his injuries,” he said. “A lot of people have said, ‘Well, he sprayed the bear, and it didn’t do any good.’ We can’t say that. We can’t say that bear spray wasn’t completely effective.”

The discharged canister was near where he died, not at the elk carcass downhill. The thrown firearm was found uphill of the bull elk’s scattered remains, but downhill and distanced from Uptain’s body.

After locating Uptain around 1:15 p.m. Saturday, Teton County Search and Rescue, Game and Fish and citizen search teams that grew to about 30 people flew out and rode out on horseback.

Game and Fish large carnivore biologists set out three leghold snares concealed in cubbies in an attempt to livetrap one or both of the grizzlies in the overnight hours. Aboard an airship that clattered overhead Sunday morning, they could not see if it worked. But after unloading from the chopper late Sunday morning, Thompson, Lash, Stephens and Game and Fish colleagues Brian Baker and Mike Boyce could make out bawls that told them they had captured the cub.

“Based on the vocalizations and the different tones, we knew we had a younger bear,” Thompson said.

The worst-case scenario was trapping the cub, with mom running free. That’s what happened. The quintet of biologists and wardens, four of whom were armed, chose a path in the relative open in the effort to gain a vantage point of the trap. The sow heard them coming.

“She appeared on a full charge,” Thompson said. “When she visualized five of us standing there, she paused for a second. We had guns up. There was a question, ‘Do we take her?’ I said take her.”

A barrage of gunfire ended the life of the grizzly that killed Mark Uptain. Her stomach was “full of elk meat,” one indication that told the Game and Fish folks that they had killed the right bear. Paws with pads and claws that matched tracks left at the scene the day before further corroborated the connection, and DNA evidence has been sent to a Laramie lab to cement that the right bears were killed.

The cub, about a 150-pound animal, was sedated before Thompson made the call to kill the sow’s dependent as well. His primary reasoning was that Uptain’s injuries suggested the cub was not a passive bystander.

“That yearling was involved in the attack,” Thompson said, “and was a contributing factor to his fatality.”

Asked if there were lessons to be learned from the fatal attack, Thompson said there was no “overt” wrongdoing or decisions made that belie best practices for hunting in grizzly country. Game and Fish’s large carnivore chief also stood behind his decision-making.

“I’m 100 percent confident that we removed the target individuals, and I’m also 100 percent confident that was the right thing to do,” Thompson said. “She was teaching an offspring that killing humans is a potential way to get food. We’ve had 10 other human injuries [from grizzlies] in the past couple years, and we haven’t attempted captures in those situations because of our investigations and the behavior of the bear.

“This was completely different, dangerous behavior,” he said. “It’s not something we want out there on the landscape

From: Franzen
19-Sep-18

Franzen's Link

From: Franzen
19-Sep-18
There it is woodguy. Looks like jdee and I were posting at the same time, but the link is to the source. Some may want to re-read the part about killing the bears. It was not an emotionally-driven decision, just like having a season wouldn't be. On another note, G&F also reiterated what several here have said: The spray may or may not have worked, but it certainly wasn't deployed when it would be most successful.

RIP to Mr. Uptain. Some would say it was a "good death", but I tend to think it was probably way too soon, without even knowing the man. Some here should definitely stick to keyboarding.

From: BS
19-Sep-18
I'd like to hear more how Chubon was ripped off his horse by the bear. LMAO!!!!!

Chubon chewed on by the bear? Yea that puncture wound on the back of his leg looked like it almost ripped his foot clean off and that scratch on his arm practically went all the way to the bone.

ok let's say chubon did everything right up to the point where he's released from the hospital after being treated for his gruesome life threatening wounds.

Do you?

A. - do everything in your power to help join the search for the man who saved your life.

B. - wait around town until word comes that the man who saved your life has been found.

C. - catch the first flight out of town before the man who saved your life is found dead or alive.

that right there tells you what kind of a man chubon is. or lack there of.

I was raised in Island Park Idaho. I've heard about grizzly attacks my whole life and personally know 2 people that have been attacked. this is the only one that bugs me like this.

From: Zbone
19-Sep-18
Wow... After reading that, gives me the willies... Wish they would have detailed the Glock more and why it didn't fire, or if chamber was loaded, or if hunter didn't know how to fire it, etc... That weapon was guide's ONLY chance of survival and they avoid elaboration on it... Never trust bear spray, especially after this...

From: Scrappy
19-Sep-18

Scrappy's Link
Woodguy65's link.

Oops looks like everyone was posting at the same time.

From: jdee
19-Sep-18
After reading that article, to me , it seems the hunter tried to shoot the bear but couldn’t or didn’t know how to work the hand gun. In the mean time the bear is fully attacking the guide. The bear was sprayed and I’m sure the hunter saw the spray and it didn’t slow the bear down, the people in the article said death was very fast so now the hunter is watching a bear kill his guide with another bear standing there..... IMO I’m sure things were going fast, loud and violent, he must have thought the guide is dead and if I’m going to live I have to get out of here. Remember he was defenseless at that point. Live or die decision. What could he do ? IMO.... I wish the guide was alive but the hunter did what most everyone would do at that point. The hunter was from Florida not the north west brown bear country of WY and he just saw a long time , big game guide , local with tons of time in bear country getting mauled to death. R.I.P.

From: Ucsdryder
19-Sep-18
Glocks go boom....unless the chamber is empty. Let this be a lesson. Get a good holster and keep it loaded!!!!

From: BIG BEAR
19-Sep-18
So let me get this straight from Chubon’s statements to Game and Fish.................

The Griz (250 pounds).... First hit Uptain............

Chubon grabbed the Glock but for some reason could not get it to fire...........

The Griz then came at Chubon........ And he tossed the pistol to Uptain.... but it ended up on the ground..........

The Griz then turns back at Uptain........... Chubon has minor injuries..........

Chubon runs for his life while Uptain is reportedly still on his feet fending off the attack and the gun is on the ground...........

Wow.....!! It also said that he was hunting with his father.... where was his father.......??

And then he flies home before the guide is located.......

Double Wow !!!!!!

From: Bou'bound
19-Sep-18
Can we just assume innocence and the best of intentions and not pass judgement on the hunter who was in a horrific situation. It’s a better way to look at things......... especially when what one thinks isn't fully informed and will change nothing.

From: LINK
19-Sep-18
JDee he didn’t think Uptain was dead. It stated his last view of Uptain was him on his feet fighting the bear. It also stated It appeared Uptain made it 50 yards uphill after the initial attack and Chubon leaving. Who knows when he deployed the spray. It could have been when the bear came for him again 50 yards uphill and when the bear bit his head giving him “instantaneous” death. Hard to pass judgement but hard not to as well.

From: jdee
19-Sep-18
+1 bou ... always guys that would have fought off two brown bears with nothing but their fist on the internet then gone to town and have a cold beer or two.

From: BIG BEAR
19-Sep-18
Grant...... Agreed it was a horrible situation...... And I’m not looking to declare guilt or innocence.......... Just sorting out the contributing factors that ended up with a man getting killed by a bear......

Factors that can be used as lessons learned to prevent it from happening again........

Factors like one or both men having a loaded pistol in a holster on their belt readily available while bowhunting in grizzly country......Or better yet... A rifle or shotgun at the ready since they didn’t find the elk until the next day.

Factors like making sure the bowhuner actually knows how to operate that pistol he’s carrying.....

And regardless of what happened or didn’t happen...... I think it is terrible that he flew home before his guide was found..... When he says the guide saved his life......

From: BIG BEAR
19-Sep-18
Jack...... I’m not trying to sound like some sort of internet tough guy..... but you said that the hunter did what most everyone would do at that point.... run for his life..........

Now put yourself into his shoes....... and let’s say the person getting mauled is your son........ or your wife. Do you still run for your life ??

From: jdee
19-Sep-18
It wasn’t his son or wife . Don’t know what I would do . I know one thing, I would be prepared for a bear with a weapon I knew inside and out with a mind set that I’m going to do what I have to do !! Seems these guys knew a bear attack could happen but probably wouldn’t. They had weapons but not really prepared to use them. Deadly mistake.

From: Old School
19-Sep-18
We don't know all the facts, but by the words of the survivor/client we know a lot of them.

Here's what we certainly do know:

1. Client was being attacked by a griz. Guide acts selflessly and helps get the griz off the client.

2. Guide is then attacked due to his selfless act. Client acts selfishly and saves his own hide. Leaving when he clearly sees the guide on his feet fighting the bear. Mind you the guide could've done the very same thing to him moments earlier - ran to the horses and fled up the mountain.

enough said...

What would you or I do in the same situation - I'd hope we would all have stayed and helped the one who just saved us, even if it cost us our life - that is the right thing to do. However, in the heat of the moment, sometimes we make terrible decisions that are selfish and we live with for the rest of our lives.

--Mitch

From: Bou'bound
19-Sep-18
I think the guy made a great decision and the right decision given the facts of the moment and what he was dealing with. I have no reason to assume otherwise or second guess without any first hand knowledge.

His actions resulted in half the number of dead humans on the mountain than would otherwise have occurred. His actions saved a life.

his supposed "selfishness" resulted in half of the humans involved returning safely to their families. Too bad it was not all of the humans, but a hell of a lot better than none of the humans going home.

For the life of me I will never understand, and will say it was terrible, to be on a plane home before the body was found...........but that is different than questioning his actions in the heat of the moment when under extreme duress and terror.

From: MQQSE
19-Sep-18
“His actions resulted in half the number of dead humans on the mountain than would otherwise have occurred. His actions saved a life.”

Not necessarily true. Could have been zero dead. We will never know.

Hopefully the silver lining is that many more live due to their mistakes.

From: Bou'bound
19-Sep-18
"We will never know."

right on......... so assume the best not the worst in people's actions

From: spike78
19-Sep-18

spike78's Link
Here is what a pissed off mom bear looks coming after you. Good luck. Luckily she turned at the shot.

19-Sep-18
Personally, from my hunting partners, I expect not to be left behind. And they can expect it from me as well. Period. You can say all you want about "heat of the moment," but I hunt in Grizz country on multiple hunts every year, have been around Grizz multiple times (true, I've never been attacked), have felt the terror that Grizz instill when they're near, and I'm prepared to fight and die if need be, before every hunt, going in.

You can say all you want that "you don't know how you'll react until it happens," but personally, I know in my heart that I would never run to save my own skin when my partner's was at risk. And I know that because I prepare myself for it before every hunt, I've stared down Grizz without panicking, I've put myself between loved ones and danger on multiple occasions, and my entire life is consistent with that statement.

Some men are cowards and some aren't. That's just a simple fact of life. By the time you reach your 4th or 5th decade of life, you ought to know yourself well enough to know what you're made of and how you'll react or else you've never tested yourself.

I'm not saying this guy is a coward, he may or may not be, but running to save your own skin when your partner's life is at risk absolutely is a cowardly act in my book. As is boarding a plane while he's missing. Can you imagine facing the man you left behind to die had he survived? I'm sure he didn't want to...

From: spike78
19-Sep-18
That all depends on if you have a weapon with you. If you don’t you have no chance and only thing to do is run at that point.

19-Sep-18
Or pick up the gun. Hell, climbing a tree and yelling at the bears is better than running.

From: BIG BEAR
19-Sep-18
Thank you for that Ike...... Jack,,,, I know it wasn’t his son or his wife.............

But that doesn’t answer my question......... If it was your son or wife or your brother or your dad or other loved one...... Would you run away and leave them alone there ????

If your answer is no........ Then would it be OK to run away and leave the guide alone..... just because he isn’t one of your loved ones ??

I’m with Ike on this. And there was still a gun on the ground there with bullets in it.

From: grubby
19-Sep-18
I have been wrestling with this since it happened....... good lord there aren't any easy answers that's for sure.

From: Mad Trapper
19-Sep-18
My guide and I were charged by a sow griz and a full grown cub in the NWT. We watched them run toward us for almost 200 yards. When the bears got to about 100 yards, we started yelling at the bears. At the time, I recalled reading something about trying to make yourself look big so I held my bow above my head. My guide later told me that she thought that I was surrendering!. The bears kept coming. I still can see their paws peeling up the sod as they got closer. At 50 yards, I thought that I had better nock an arrow. At 30 yards, the cub pulled back and started to lope down the hill. The sow kept coming. My guide had her rifle on the bear and I came to full draw. We stood side by side. The sow stopped at 15-20 yards. We did not shoot. I think what saved us (and the bear) was that she had lost sight of the cub. Grizzlies are protected in the NWT. I give the guide all of the credit in the world. You really don't know how you will react until you actually face it. In this case we could see them coming and had time to prepare. Not sure how I would react in a surprise attack. Very sad story indeed. Sorry for everybody involved.

From: GF
19-Sep-18
Plenty of hard lessons to be learned here, I guess.

One thing about the client is his age; he’s young. Probably grew up being told to never fight for himself or others, because these days, a kid who takes on a bully is liable to face more punishment than the bully who was only “threatening” to do harm.

We’ve seen the same in the school & university shootings; you wonder how a lone shooter with a pistol can kill 37 people and it turns out he just walked from desk to desk and shot them as they cowered underneath.

So maybe it’s not cowardice as much as training? My guess is that this client ran because he had no idea what else to do. Run and get help, as he had been taught.

I’m thinking it’s a mistake to hunt Grizzly Country if you haven’t been trained to use a suitable Deterrent. Even if it’s “only” bear spray, but who goes on a guided hunt with zero experience using firearms???

I can totally understand a guide not trusting a client with a semi-auto pistol if the client had never used one. My own experience tops out with a SA revolver, but I could probably figure out a DA as long as I could reach the trigger.

I guess the moral of the story is that you choose your companions wisely before heading into a potentially life-threatening situation.

And with all due respect to the guys who’ve hunted Griz Country for decades and never had a problem with them.... there are a lot more of them (and lions) around than there used to be...

From: wild1
19-Sep-18
Prayers for the family(s). May the guide RIP.

I now know who I'd hunt with......and who I would not hunt with.

From: jdee
19-Sep-18
BB I would like to think I would die for my family. I know how I acted in bad situations in the military and can be proud of it but I was trained , had plenty of weapons and expecting it. Guys I served with that would tell you all the brave things they would do when things got bad weren’t always the guys that actually acted the bravest. I’m saying I wasn’t there and didn’t see it go down . As bou said , I’m glad at least one man is still alive.

From: DMTJAGER
19-Sep-18
We all can sit here and be judgmental Monday morning quarter backs with the luxury of saying what we would've done from the safety of our homes that are (accept for us married guys, our wives) devoid of immensely powerful apex predators. In my life although not as severe, I have found myself in situations that if I stayed and faced an immediate very serious threat that a friend could not have possibly escaped but I could've easily but chose to stay and help that ended up costing me dearly including multiple trips to the ER and a very real risk to my freedom. To this day I than God I stayed. Many, many years ago I lost a dear friend who died in a situation where the group of kids she was with got into a life threatening situation and everyone survived but her. To this day I carry with me the pain of her mother coming up to me at her closed coffin Wake and telling me if I had been there her baby girl would still be alive. I don't feel I possess one scintilla of bravery more than anyone else, in actuality the times I risked my well being to help others was in all honesty rather selfish as I KNEW AFTER THE FACT I did it to preserve my own life more than theirs as I doubt I could ever live with the crushing guilt that would for me PERSONALLY be in of itself life threatening. In short my bravery, if you can call it that was based on a type of cowardice driven by my own self preservation. It's easy to say what one would've done, its all together different when your actually faced with a threat to your life so terrifying it makes one realize the saying "scared sh!tless" is for real. If this person ran and left his guide to fend form himself that is indeed an act of cowardice, granted it was an act almost certainly driven out of pure self preservation, but none the less he will have to live with it. If that man has any conscience what so ever and he did run away when he could've stayed and helped he will suffer the grief for doing so the rest of his days. Unless you have been extensively trained for it, until one is faced with a life threatening situation so terrifying that it can literally overwhelm your ability to take any action other than to run away as fast as humanly possible, you can not honestly say how you would act. Anyone who tells you differently is being disingenuous. I guess I now understand the saying the worst situations bring out the best (or worst) in a person.

19-Sep-18
Totally agree with all those posting about the actions of Mr. Chubon. I would be certain that I killed either the grizzly, you, or myself, trying in that situation...

From: mn_archer
19-Sep-18
Some of you need to just back away from the keyboard. This reminds me of an old saying..

Better to keep quiet and let people think you're an asshole than to babble on and prove them correct.

The only true facts are one guy, one elk. and 2 bears ended up dead. No matter what the hunter had done I'm sure the Bowsite is crawling with guys who coulda and woulda done it better. Maybe you keyboard commandos can get back to pissing and moaning about some tv hunters shot placement and let this one go. The man was a husband and father of 5 young kids for crying out loud- show some respect and a little class

michael

19-Sep-18
"This reminds me of an old saying.. Better to keep quiet and let people think you're an asshole than to babble on and prove them correct."

Irony...

And those aren't "the only facts." The fact of the matter is, the guy who survived gave an account himself of what happened and stated that he fled the scene with his guide still on his feet.

And there's nothing disrespectful or classless in pointing out how a man's life may have been saved. Nice try with the straw-man attack, but your logic falls flat.

From: BIG BEAR
19-Sep-18
Michael..... I don’t think anyone is bragging about how they could do anything BETTER....... Only that they would have at least TRIED to help .........

19-Sep-18
Wow, what a simple set of facts mn_archer deals with. I guess he would run too?

Yes, a guy died and is considered a "hero" by a guy who was also there, got some scratches, and was home, safe & secure in Florida before his "hero's" body was even recovered (which happened very quickly BTW). If I am an "asshole" to say any friend that I hunt with can be assured that if a bear attacks us, either the bear, him or me (or all of the above) will be dead or the situation is safe again, before I leave, then so be it...

From: TXHunter
19-Sep-18
I’m not going to comment except to say I always am amazed at how some can read an article - then immediately say it says exactly the opposite of what it actually says on several key points.

From: mn_archer
19-Sep-18
Saying what you think you would do and what you would actually do under those circumstances is likely 2 completely separate things for just about everyone, myself included.

I probably fired more rounds of ammo over the past year than almost every bowsiter travelling and shooting 3 gun matches. I am very familiar and proficient with my competition guns. Yet under hi stress stages even the most seasoned competitors can fall apart under the pressure of a simple timer. Now toss a several hundred beast into the mix that is literally tearing your guide apart and im pretty sure just about everyone would've fumbled with a strange gun just a bit, even a gun as simple as a glock.

It's almost laughable reading some of you talking about you wouldve entered that fight barehanded and fought 2 bears to the death.

I have to go teach an awanas class, peace out sauerkraut

From: Mule Power
19-Sep-18
I know one thing..,, if I am an outfitter and one of my guides tells me his client made a good shot on a bull but they didn’t recover it and they are going back in the morning I am sending 4 people! I feel like the outfitter dropped the ball here to a certain degree. That situation is a pretty big red freakin’ flag!!!

If you hire a professional to escort you somewhere... even a cruise ship captain... it’s up to him and the people he works for to hope for the best and plan for the worse.

There have been lots of facts tossed around here. Even more speculation. Let’s keep it simple.... the guy gad no gun, no spray... zero means of self defense. What do you think he should do? Throw rocks? That would be an extremely extreme version of poking a bees nest and standing there waiting to see what happens!

If you have ever taken part in first aid training or cpr classes what is the very first thing they tell you? Do NOT become the second victim.

You and I would have been way more prepared. And we probably have more balls. But I just don’t feel like he had much of a choice.

There you are with a trained professional... who wasn’t very prepared... couldn’t get to his gun and didn’t have time to deploy spray even though he wasn’t the first one attacked.... and now you, who have already been attacked, have a chance to not only save your own ass but also go call for real help. For all he knew the guidecwas going to be let go just like he was and both of them were going to need medical attention asap.

I’m pretty sure he never said something like “Screw that guide I’m outta here”.

Lighten up Francis!

19-Sep-18
Saying what anyone else other than yourself would or would not have done is ridiculous. And the discussion wasn't regarding pistol proficiency, but if this guy has watched any TV or movies in the past 25 years, he ought to know how to put one in the chamber of a Glock. The simple truth is that he panicked and ran and left a good man to die. Whether or not he had the ability to make a difference is anyone's guess. The point is, he didn't try.

From: DMTJAGER
19-Sep-18
It seams to me we will never get a Grizzly season in the lower 48 and will have to consider other options for our safety. As far as guides in grizzly country maybe it's time to incorporate training similar as that the PH's in Africa must take and pass. Unless things have changed I once read to become a licensed PH that most countries in Africa mandate you pass a class that involves you proving your competence at certain skills like first aid, marksmanship and effective shot placement to be able to stop a charging dangerous animal. Maybe it's time for lower 48 outfitting companies that guide in grizzly country to add a member to the party guiding who's sole purpose is anti-grizzly security and pack along a large caliber rifle in the 416 Rigby or 458 WM caliber class and is very well trained in the marksmanship needed to shoot and stop a charging grizzly. I'm talking voluntary training not more government regulation. Possibly outfitters in grizzly states can hold a summit to discuss a course of action like the one above?

And ANYONE who believes that subjecting grizzlies to hunting pressure sufficient enough to make them fear man wouldn't help prevent attacks like this then you know nothing about animals and their fear of men.

I'm not talking about a chance encounter where hunter and bear stumble into one another because the bear wasn't aware of the hunters presence by way of detecting him by one of its keen senses. I'm talking about incidents like my friend had while Caribou hunting on the Kenai Peninsula. He had just tracked and found the bull he had killed, walked away from his rifle he set down on his pack to get on top of a small rise to see if he could spot his brother who was also on a bull he just shot, when in his words got a premonition something was wrong he turned around and saw a grizzly fast approaching as it saw the bull but not him. My friend stood there unsure of what to do when the bear winded him, raised up on its hind legs, looked in his direction and swapped ends and took off like his azz was on fire. That bears reaction of flight at all possible speed was for one reason and one reason only his fear of the man he smelled was stronger than its desire to eat. And the only reason any animal fears man is because it knows we can kill it. I doubt animals like grizzlies, deer or elk are born with an instinctive fear of man it is learned from experience or taught to them by their mothers and others of their kind.

Once any animal learns to regard the sent of man with a threat to their continued existence they act very differently than when they did not. Do I actually need to remind anyone of how different elk or deer act on day 10 of first rifle season VS the day before opening day? Lastly, Are guides in grizzly country even allowed to carry a rifle while guiding clients regardless if they are guiding a bow or gun hunter? If they are not and HG's are their only option then they are at a huge disadvantage VS carrying a rifle.

19-Sep-18
It's the mother that teach their young what to flee from.

And having been exposed to AK bears that are heavily hunted by the Native population and WY bears, there is no comparison. I've taken 4 or 5 trips into the AK bush around Kotzebue hunting ducks and caribou and every grizz I've come upon has torn off as fast as its legs will take it and can often times be glassed still running at full speed over a mile away.

I was duck hunting this past spring and glassed up a grizz and changed out my bird shot for slugs and went after him. This was a full-sized mature boar. He got sight of me at about 100 yards and you'd have thought he got branded on the ass. He charged the opposite way as me, tore a hole through the willows and kept going. I saw him on the mountain side over a mile away still running.

The difference is that bears are targets of opportunity up there and anyone who sees one, shoots it, boar or sow. The sows teach the cubs to run and that's that bear's culture. In WY, I've come across dozens of grizz at ranges of 100 to 500 yards and it's like they don't give a crap. They usually just glance at you and then go on doing whatever it was that they were doing. They're completely different behaviors. The University of Wyoming has even documented them following rifle hunters from trailheads during rifle season using GPS and chasing hunters off of elk after the shot goes off.

The season may not do much for a long time, maybe decades, but it's better than nothing. I believe for it to be truly effective though, they'd need to shoot more sows than they're willing to do now.

From: DMTJAGER
19-Sep-18
Idyllwildarcher, you are correct. My friend said he watched that grizzly keep running at full speed until it hit the thick brush well over a mile away. He also said he was left in awe with a lasting impression on just how fast a grizzly can run. He realized how little time one would have to react if one came face to face unexpectedly with a grizzly at under 100 yards. Very, very little time indeed.

From: CW
19-Sep-18
Unless you've been unarmed while a grizzly was visciously attacking, while knowing a gun that you just tried but couldn't figure out how to fire was laying on the ground somewhere, you really don't know what split second decision would come to mind at the time. It is possible that he actually used the one second that he had to determine that the best help he could provide was to get to a position and call for help asap. As there would be no time to figure out how to use the gun even if he somehow found it. A dead person would be in no position to help. Even the rescue search team (who could have actually been armed, prepared, and knew what to expect) didn't go in to save or find the guide until the next day.

Heaven forbid but its actually possible that the guide got away from the scene and awaited rescue, only to have the sow and cub find him after they were done with the elk and leaving the scene who knows how long later. Its all speculation. All of it.

From: Scar Finga
19-Sep-18
Have any of you been shot at? I mean like some one wants to kill you now shot at...This is a valid question because it's basically the same thing. Your reflexes/ training take over, not your will, mind or body. You either fire/fight back, run or just try and hide. It's not a conscious decision. That's why military and police train so hard, so it becomes second nature... No actual thought involved, it's a reaction. If you haven't been in that type of situation you really have no idea how you will react! I have seen the biggest baddest mo-fo fold at the first shot and they can't function. You fight like you train, anyone one who says different is not educated in the finer points of combat and war. I am not saying how I would react, (but I have been there and done that) but I know that the basic instinct of survival will take over and there is nothing you can do in that situation but react in one way or another! It's neither right nor wrong, it's about your instinct, training and situational awareness. You very well may shit your pants, pee, shake like a scared school girl and collapse on the spot. You have no idea until you have been there, and no matter how tough and bad-ass you think you are, I call B.S! Let the survivor live, maybe he is a member here and reading this! God Bless Brother and I hope you find peace in this nightmare! And let the dead rest as well, perhaps his family is reading this! If so, I pray peace upon you and your family, He was a courageous man. Not many truly are!

God Bless!

Scar.

From: Dooner
19-Sep-18
Right on Mule Power! “From: Mule Power19-Sep-18Private Reply I know one thing..,, if I am an outfitter and one of my guides tells me his client made a good shot on a bull but they didn’t recover it and they are going back in the morning I am sending 4 people! I feel like the outfitter dropped the ball here to a certain degree. That situation is a pretty big red freakin’ flag!!!”

I totally agree! If I was the outfitter, I would’ve gone in with more guys carrying shotguns. If he done that he’d still be alive.

19-Sep-18
"I have seen the biggest baddest mo-fo fold at the first shot and they can't function."

In my experience, these types are the biggest pussies. I had one faint just 2 months ago when I put a single stitch in his hand.

"...but I know that the basic instinct of survival will take over and there is nothing you can do in that situation but react in one way or another!"

That's 100% true: When the SHTF, some men act cowardly and some act like heroes.

And men/women of all walks of life act heroically all the time with zero training whatsoever. Modern combat training was developed starting in the Napoleanic period through to now and continues. Firing rates during WWI were around 15% and increased to less than 50% in WWII and upwards of 70% in Vietnam. Those that studied war developed current training models, not so that everyone could go from a coward to a killer, but so that more would go from coward to killer. The fact of the matter is that some are better prepared with zero training than some are with training, but that everyone is better prepared with training.

And comparing police/military work to defending your hunting partner is a bit of a stretch, a bit of a non sequitur. There are countless stories of people defending others against wild animals. There was a story when I was a kid in California of an elderly lady beating a mountain lion off her elderly husband with a stick and she saved him! Last I checked, there's no live-action mountain lion beating classes. There's simply regular people choosing to fight or flee.

Perhaps the guy did the right thing. There's no way of knowing. Still, he fled while the guy was alive and he subsequently died. No matter how you cut it, to me, that's a cowardly act.

From: pa10point
19-Sep-18
I have only been on one outfitted hunt and the hunters weren’t even expected to touch the elk after a kill. The guide and staff would take care of it we were told. I can’t imagine how an outfitter could let an unarmed client and 1 guide go to retrieve a wounded elk in known grizzly country. Haven’t heard any statement from outfitter about this. Sure would like to hear his explanation.

From: Mule Power
19-Sep-18
Being unarmed and running from an enraged grizzly bear is cowardly? Man I must be a pussy too! Lol

From: CW
19-Sep-18
He fled, or he took the only chance he had to go call for help? There is being brave, and there is being stupid. Its a gray line and unless you were there, you wouldn't know which side of this falls on.

From: Old School
19-Sep-18
Lets remember both parties here were unarmed fellas, not just the poor scared to death client.

Guide(unarmed) - chooses to intervene and distract an enraged grizzly off his client - that's called courageous.

Client (unarmed) - chooses to run instead of returning the favor - don't really care how you slice it, that's a cowardly act.

--Mitch

From: stealthycat
19-Sep-18
did ya'll read this one ?

https://www.jhnewsandguide.com/news/environmental/article_b4d14d59-e76a-5da6-9929-b9422416a744.html?utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=user-share

I could never forgive myself for leaving a man to be mauled to death by bears. I know, I've never been in that situation, but I've been in situations .... and I've risked my life for others and I've got to believe I'd have done that here as well.

Its a good question on the outfitter, I was thinking myself today that maybe mandatory 2 guides plus the hunter(s) are going to have to be the norm from now on in grizzly country ?

From: BIG BEAR
19-Sep-18
All of you guys who think that he did the right thing...... Answer this........ Would you leave in the exact same scenario if it was one of your loved ones you were leaving....?????

If you wouldn’t leave your loved one....... If you would risk your own life for a loved one...........

Why wouldn’t you do the same for someone else’s loved one ????

19-Sep-18
The client was NOT unarmed! He retrieved a gun from the guide's backpack while it was attacking the guide and threw the gun to the guide (and didn't get the gun to him)! Then he left with the gun lying on the ground while he (the client) was NOT being attacked.

If there's a gun on the ground and you're not being attacked, you're as good as armed. All you have to do is pick the damn thing up.

From: BIG BEAR
19-Sep-18
Ike..... and anyone who doesn’t know how to make a semi automatic pistol they are carrying go bang....... has no business being in grizzly country.... guided or not.

19-Sep-18
It boggles my mind BB - this guy is a hunter, not some daisy-eating San Francisco urbanite.

From: Matt
19-Sep-18
This site is fortunate to have so many logical, and hell....omniscient...posters, who know for a fact EXACTLY how they would react, no matter the fatigue, surprise, shock or injury they may be subject to, in a situation like this.

20-Sep-18
There's not that many of us Matt. Omniscient posters, that is.

From: patdel
20-Sep-18
Terrible tragedy. Prayers for the children left behind.

A few things about this story bother me, and Idyll has already touched on a couple of them. Toddlers and dogs can and have made glocks go bang. There's not much to it.

The hunter boarded a plane and left before he knew the outcome. To me it looks like he isn't happy with how he reacted. I dont think he wanted to look Uptain in the eye if he had walked out of the woods. Also didn't want to look anybody else in the eye if he didnt.

I think the poor guy is going to have a burden to carry, and I'm praying for him too.

Why weren't both men in possession of guns while working on that elk? Or at least one of them holding the gun they had? Especially in that area after it had been left over night?

I can only guess that they both relaxed a bit after they found it untouched, and thought they were in the clear. Hell of a hard lesson.

Like I said before, tragic. Prayers for all.

From: Matt
20-Sep-18
"There's not that many of us Matt. Omniscient posters, that is. "

I know - there are a lot fewer than you think.

From: TD
20-Sep-18
Mule and Scar x2

It was stated the gun did not have a round in the chamber. A person's dog or kid or whoever could have used it to pound a nail and it would not have fired. Not every male knows about guns just as not every female knows how to cook and sew. While most of us come to bowhunting from a gun background an increasing number of mostly younger bowhunters don't. The bow is the first and only thing they pick up. If you've never held a semi-auto handgun, which is a great number of people, it would probably take a bit of time and some thought to finally figure it out. Saying "he should have known" is right up there with "he should have been armed" and does not reflect the reality of the moment, might as well ask why didn't he just punch the bear out like some other folks seem to think they can. Extra time and thought were non-existent. "pick up the gun" at that moment was the same as "pick up a rock".

He had just been mauled himself and thought "this was it, this is how I die" while the bear was on him. Then it let him go. Shaken and unarmed. You can either call your fuzzy buddy back out into the alley to wrestle around for another round and kick your weak soft defenseless human azz all over the forest , likely kill you this time.... or you can haul azz for help.

I don't know and just a guess, this was possibly his first time hunting the west. Locals take a great many things they grew up with and know for granted. They shouldn't. You can call him.... them actually.... unprepared. It doesn't change the reality of that moment even a little bit.

I couldn't answer this either...... but I'd bet money if you talked to survivors of a grizzly mauling, like this guy, and asked them what the he should have done under those circumstances..... my guess is they would say almost to a man, consider yourself fortunate, get out of there and go get some help. Not "GO BACK and fight it by hand to the death".

edit: Talking about this to a friend a bit ago and he mentioned he heard is was "just" a sow grizzly and "only" 200-250lbs! That just makes her mean and FAST. Those sows kick boars azz twice their size all the time for the cubs survival. They know how to go full psycho on things.

From: shade mt
20-Sep-18
What I have to say some might not like, but it's sooo true.

1st..prayers to ALL involved.

2nd.. It is hard to know EXACTLY how or what EXACTLY happened, unless you were there.

3rd... The only thing we can go by, is the story left by the guy that was being guided apparently from Florida.....And he ran.

One thing I do know that is FACT though is......Everybody is a tough guy until the going gets tough, everybody is a fighter and bad*** until they actually have to fight. Lots of people will tell ya "I got your back".....when you don't actually need them, but ya end up standing alone when you really do.

I won't pass judgement on anyone else, but I darn sure know what I'd do. Everybody gets scared....But it's what you do when you are, that defines the difference between coward and brave.......just saying.

From: Lost Man
20-Sep-18
God bless the internet for endless entertainment on night shift and guys who say they would've fought a charging sow grizzly that is mauling everything in sight...how many of you have ever even had a face to face angry bear encounter?

From: shade mt
20-Sep-18
I have....sow with a cub, luckily she was bluffing. facts might indicate the guy didn't know how to shoot the glock? he was from florida so good chance he wasn't used to being around bears, let alone one that is intent on killing you.

but fact remains...Everyone has to live with the choices you make, Only He and He alone will have to replay this over and over in his mind.

History accounts of many Men who in the face of grave danger, stood their ground and fought in order to try and save another person, even if it meant their own death....I wouldn't judge this man....rather each of us judge yourself. What kind of man am I?

From: shade mt
20-Sep-18
and for the record, I'm not nightshift..i work construction, some of us get up early.

From: Bou'bound
20-Sep-18
the hunter was unarmed. he did not have a weapon he could activate. what he should have known or been prepared for is irrelevant once the situation commenced. he was limited to the reality not the hypothetical at that point.

he was dead if he decided to get into hand to hand combat. he would have the respect of many above had he died trying, but I am sure he could care less about that compared to going home to his family.

it is not like he saw the bear coming and said "I'm out of here text me if you make it and let me know how this turned out. I think i'll catch an early flight back to florida. also, if you make it please don't forget to bring out the rack."

I think he did the best he could given the facts in the moment and I would have said the same thing if he died and the same thing if he saved them both. no reason to believe otherwise given the fact none of us were there to know.

From: BIG BEAR
20-Sep-18
Grant..... Your first sentence says it all and reflects on the lessons to be learned here.......

1. Everyone should be carrying a weapon they know how to use and can readily access while hunting in grizzly country.

2. If he didn’t know how to shoot that gun...... He had no business hunting in Wyoming.

No one seems to want to honestly answer my question.......... Would you do the exact same thing if you were leaving behind your loved one ?????? If you answer that you would not leave them,,,,,, Then why would you leave someone else’s loved one ??

From: Mule Power
20-Sep-18
Big Bear... really dude. Anyone who doesn’t know how to shoot a gun has no business hunting in Wyoming huh? This is starting to sound like the political crap all over the news these days. That statement defines your personality and to me duscredits any of your opinions.

If that’s the way you think why not cast judgement on the deceased guide? I mean after all I can think of several things he might have done to influence the outcome. For starters how about giving your young bow hunting flatlander a quick tutorial on how to use your handgun.... as you chamber a round for him! That scenario is like the cruise ship having the life jackets locked up in a vault and forgetting to tell the passengers the combination. It just so happens that this passenger was able to swim to shore and the first mate couldn’t get to the pfd in time.

Again though.... the captain of that ship was the outfitter who in my mind sent his soldier to the front line unprepared.

The word that comes to my mind is complacency. Walking up to and quartering a dead elk in grizzly country after it’s been sitting there all night without having both people.... or 3-4 people locked and loaded is pretty damn foolish. Is that the hunter’s fault too!

From: TXHunter
20-Sep-18
It’s been my observation that the amount of bravery one actually shows when TSHTF is inversely proportional to how much they run their mouth about how brave they are and how much they denigrate others as “cowards”.

True courage is never loud or talkative about it.

A bunch of talk is usually hiding a bunch of insecurities.

From: BIG BEAR
20-Sep-18
Joe..... So you call them damn foolish....... I agree..........

And just because you are booking a guided hunt in grizzly country....... that is no reason not to be able to operate the gun you have. What if your guide has a heart attack and dies in the mountains ??? I say your a dumb ass if you go on a guided hunt in grizzly country and you don’t know how to operate the semi automatic pistol you are carrying on your hunt.

From: TXHunter
20-Sep-18
No one knows the “in the moment” facts but two people.

One of them is gone.

Let’s let the dead rest and the living carry with them whatever burdens they have. I’m sure the opinions of Monday-morning quarterbacks are way down on that list.

I pray for all affected by this terrible tragedy.

From: BIG BEAR
20-Sep-18
So we should ignore trying to learn anything from this John ??

From: TXHunter
20-Sep-18
Learning is good.

One can learn without judging/denigrating those involved.

From: Buskill
20-Sep-18
I would say this event has sparked many a conversation between guide and client this week . I think we can all agree some huge mistakes were made here , namely not being personally armed and ready to use it . Maybe the inevitable conversations will save a life or two this week or next .

From: Mule Power
20-Sep-18
I wouldn’t say a person is dumb if they don’t know how to operate a handgun. Especially since there are many different types. They are just uneducated. Unless you are sarcastic and judgmental.... or were born knowing everything.

However they would know how to after being properly instructed which would be in the guides best interest. Not everyone owns their own handgun to bring either.

Airlines supply emergency equipment and their standard operating procedure is to instruct their customers how to use them whether they know how or not.

In this case I wouldn’t say the guide or outfitter should provide a means of defense but they should send more than one guide who will be bent over an elk carcass, and his greenhorn hunter.

From: LINK
20-Sep-18
Big Bear I agree with you on the hunters actions. You don’t go into grizzly country not knowing how to handle a weapon, guided or not. I would also like to think I would have attempted to do something but let me play devils advocate here. No one is going to do for you what they’d do for their kids, brothers. That is a reaction that requires no thought only instinct. When the bear is attacking a stranger you’ve known for 3 days the instinct is likely different and it becomes a choice. A lot of us would hope that we would choose to do something but just as the sow likely thought she was protecting her cub it’s a different situation when it’s a family member. There’s something deeper than courage and honor in that circumstance.

From: LINK
20-Sep-18
One thing I haven’t seen mentioned. Where was his bow? It would be hard to place an arrow under that circumstance but even if you had to run to the horse and back with an arrow nocked....

From: Vonfoust
20-Sep-18
Anybody know where the second bear was? Maybe between the hunter and the gun? Who knows? The only thing I do know is that this is a tragedy for all involved. RIP Mr. Uptain.

From: jdee
20-Sep-18
X2 bou and mule power.... I really don’t think there was much the hunter could do after he threw the pistol to the guide. I know most you guys would have gone into hand to hand combat and put the sow in a choke hold while staring the young male bear down.... IMO the hunter was defenseless at that point with two grizzly bears there, one killing the guide....it was live or die time for the hunter. Nothing he could do right then if he wanted to live. He could have been a hero and died with the guide . I bet this will change the way Outfitters do things from now on in griz country and you guys that say anyone should know how to rack a pistol is BS if you don’t know how you don’t know how and he didn’t have time to learn right then. Hind sight is always 20/20

From: stealthycat
20-Sep-18
isn't a glock a pull the trigger and it shoots gun ? safety is on the trigger right ?

I cannot imagine the guide didn't have a round chambered

From: BS
20-Sep-18
Everyone seems to be conveniently forgetting that the coward flew out of town and was back home with mama before the man who saved his life was even found.

That there speaks volumes of the kind of person chubon is.

From: Ambush
20-Sep-18
Hindsight is 20/20 and apparently damn cruel too.

Lots of guys sitting on their couch after the big game telling their buddies how they would have coached or played that game for the win. But they weren't playing or coaching, so it really doesn't matter and there is no do-over.

I probably see more bears, including grizzlies, in a season then most Bowsiter's will see in there lifetime. Heck, I've probably killed more bears than most Bowsiter's will see in their lifetime. I've blood trailed blacks and grizzlies in thick stuff. More than once I've whacked B bears with 2X4's in my yard. I've been charged by bears, some, very close. I've killed a few in close encounters.

The point is, I'm not afraid of bears and a few times I've been reminded that familiarity can cause complacency. That's a bad thing, whether it's in bear country or the big city. That may have been the situation with the guide.

The last sheep hunt I was on, we had seen a mature boar grizzly several times in our area. One night we came over the last ridge to see that grizzly digging marmots about three hundred yards from our tent, as it was getting dark. Two bows and two cans of bear spray. We're not allowed to carry handguns and long guns are a heavy nuisance that often get left behind anyway. We went to camp, and I slept fine. We had stashed a cape and meat in the snow half a mile away.

In this situation, I'm pretty sure I would have stayed at the scene and done what I could. But on the other hand, if I was in Florida, playing in the ocean and somebody yelled "shark has me!!!", I'd be dog paddling like only a terrified person can, straight for shore. Anyone other than a family member or very close friend, is on their own.

I won't publicly defend or condemn the hunter. Though I have an opinion, there's nothing to be gained by sharing it.

And it is also quite obvious that a number of people have to go back and read the most recent and official releases from the WGF. And some should reread it slowly, several times.

And Idyll is one hundred percent correct on how grizzlies learn fear and how they lose it. I've seen this very transformation over forty years of hunting in northern BC.

From: Abndoc
20-Sep-18
New to this forum, but have been reading a lot on this situation. I had 2 close calls with bears in western Montana last fall and will be taking my 15 yr old son out there in a few weeks. We have been discussing bears and what we would do in a situation like this. He’s practicing with his bear spray. He’s practicing with a side arm. One thing many of you are forgetting is that, these gentlemen had not trained together and were not prepared with each other actions during a high stress event. They may have had a discussion about it, but proper preparation and training is the key during an event like this. Fight or flight kicks in, and even though someone of you say, I would of stayed and gave my life, you don’t know how you would of reacted. As a former special operations soldier, the reason our elite military and police units survive and usually win in these situations is training, knowledge and dependent on a collective cohesive team. Everyone understands everyone’s key part in the event. Stop tearing this gentleman down that survived. We have no idea what their plan was or even if they had one. The gentleman obviously didn’t know how to use the sidearm that was available. Stress and inexperience broke them down. They didn’t have someone looking out for bears, and they were prepared for the ambush. Unless you’ve been through this type of event and planned for it, you do not know how you would react or if you even could. We need to support the gentleman that lived, support the family of the fallen guide and support each other in these circumstances. The situation is over. We can break it down and learn from it, or we can be a bunch of arm chair quarterbacks and say I’m the bad ass who would of saved everyone. You don’t know that! You weren’t there. Take this situation and learn from it. Train for it and prepare for it. It wont be the last one we hear about, but we can make the next one hopefully have a better outcome. Train, Train, Train and be prepared, you never know when life will change in a split sec. We enjoy a dangerous hobby, and put ourselves in dangerous situations. This isn’t just for bear country, but really anytime you are afield. Have a plan, and have a team.

From: lv2bohunt
20-Sep-18
Ambush and Abndoc

Great posts. This should be a lesson to all that when we go into the backcountry with someone our livelihoods are dependent on each other. We should have a plan, and understand our expectation and responsibility for each scenario we can think of. I have read the account and listened to the hunters interview. I might react differently or I might not. I hope I never have to find out. My mind tells me I must have my buddies back but I’m presently not staring down a grizzly. I’m going to Colorado in a few weeks and this thread will be foremost in my mind.

20-Sep-18
People keep saying that those of us who say it was a cowardly act to leave and then get on a plane are stating that, and I'm paraphrasing, 'would go fight the sow mano y mano unarmed.' No one has said that. No one has said they'd go tackle the bear or put it in a choke hold. That's ridiculous.

Again, there was a pistol on the ground within whatever yardage you can throw a Glock, and he was not being attacked... This, according to his own story.

"God bless the internet for endless entertainment on night shift and guys who say they would've fought a charging sow grizzly that is mauling everything in sight...how many of you have ever even had a face to face angry bear encounter?"

I've had many different occasions close to grizzly bears and been charged once, although by a small black bear. Still, as small as he was, he probably could have killed me and definitely could have injured me enough to end my hunt. I stayed calm, did not panic, did not shit myself, and defended myself.

The fact is, some guys are scared shitless of bears and some are not. Some of us hunt grizz country solo because we're not afraid of bears. Some can't imagine doing that and don't. I've even spoken with many local tough-guy cowboys in Wyoming that wont go near Grizz country.

Since we're being called out... For those of you calling us out for saying this is a cowardly act, how many of you have hunted solo in grizz country? Or even unguided in grizz country with a friend? Over the past 13 months, I've hunted solo over 30 days on Kodiak, the Brook's Range, and the North West Arctic. Perhaps you just can't understand our mindset because you can't comprehend the situation yourself and you're not prepared for it.

One thing I've learned in my short 40 years on this planet as a man successful in life, is that people who can't do the same things as others, typically cannot comprehend how someone is capable of something they are not, which is why Chuck Adams was accused of cheating so much because people couldn't wrap their head around the idea that he's such a successful bowhunter.

Just because you'd do the same thing as Wrongway Reigal McPistolchucker or cant fathom anyone else not doing the same, doesn't mean that's how we'd react.

From: BS
20-Sep-18
I know one thing I would have done with 100% certainly.

I would have been there at first light with search and rescue willing to show them last place I saw the man who saved my life and help look for him. NOT ON A PLANE FLYING HOME!!!!!!!

From: akbow
20-Sep-18

akbow's embedded Photo
akbow's embedded Photo
Speaking from personal experience. I don't think anyone here can generate an opinion from the information that has been provided. I have been bluffed and attacked and my reactions were instinctual. I can recall in vivid detail all the events involved in the bluff charge, but during the actual attack my memory fades to black. I assume that adrenaline has something to do with it, but there is a point in my memory that just stops. I can recall what led up to the moment, but after the first shot my memory just stops until after the bear was gone. I was very disoriented after assessing what happened. When I made it back to where I could get help, a half hour later, I had trouble conveying what had happened and I was only slightly scathed by the attack. I can't imagine this guys state of mind, knowing that there was another person involved. I do think a bit more prevention/awareness should have been involved, but that is hindsight and what we should all be learning from. I also will attest that bears that are hunted are more wary of human contact--not all though and in this instance it was probably the worst-case scenario of a mama bear defending not only a cub, but also a food source. Hopefully, this case provides future awareness and a requirement to carry weapons--at least on guided hunts where they are responsible for someone who may not be aware of the dangers. Unguided--I guess you are on your own to make that decision, but the tag should have some sort of warning label on it that the tag carries inherent risks and a link to how to be prepared in grizzly country.

From: Dooner
20-Sep-18
Excellent post Ambush. To quote: “familiarity can cause complacency”. I believe that was the error the guide made here, and it cost him his life.

It’s already snowed up there; winter is approaching. Those bears will aggressively defend any food source, and, of course their cubs.

It was the guide’s responsibility to come up with a plan that could handle a worst case scenario. He should have had more people, that were prepared to defend against a bear attack. At the very least, he should have had the one gun he had out & ready! Not in a f’ing pack!

For all you guys hammering the client, give me a break! He was a bow hunter tourist, who hired a local, “professional”, guide. The client was from Florida, and shouldn’t be expected to know safe practices in that situation. In my opinion the guide was complacent, almost got his client killed, and lost his life in the process.

From: akbow
20-Sep-18

akbow's embedded Photo
akbow's embedded Photo

From: akbow
20-Sep-18

akbow's embedded Photo
akbow's embedded Photo
Only posted the one pic--here are the others

20-Sep-18
"For all you guys hammering the client, give me a break! He was a bow hunter tourist, who hired a local, “professional”, guide. The client was from Florida, and shouldn’t be expected to know safe practices in that situation."

While there is certainly some truth to that, I believe in personal responsibility. You have to know going into to Grizz country that you're going into Grizz country, guide or not. We cannot, as a society, absolve ourselves of all responsibility and throw it on the backs of those from whom we purchase services, which is the way this country has gone over the past 30 years, and it's saddening.

What if his guide had had a heart attack and dropped dead? When you head into the wilderness, you have to at least be somewhat prepared for what you're getting yourself into. Especially in Grizzly country.

And again, it's so little about that and so much more about leaving the scene with your partner on his feet and then getting on a plane before he's found. All the details and the speculation and the what-ifs and the woulda-shoulda-coulda, all boil down to the fact that he ran from the scene with a man on his feet and that man later died.

Sorry, I just expect more from my hunting partners and they can expect more from me, no matter how you want to spin it and question the probables and improbables or use sarcasm to straw-man us with some sort of faux bravado for our opinions.

From: jdee
20-Sep-18
Abndoc and Akbow....great post !

From: Dooner
20-Sep-18
“ I believe in personal responsibility”. Ike, while I take the same approach to life, the guide was still “the captain of the ship”. I never would have let a guide lead me into a situation like that without more backup. I have a home in Montana grizz country and I know better. Just saying that it was the guide’s responsibility to direct readiness to defend against the bear attack.

20-Sep-18
akbow's story is apples and oranges. First of all, he did not panic, he did not turn tail and run. He stood his ground and killed the bear. Clearly, he's a man who is not a coward. As far as the shock and the memory loss, that's a common reaction to high stress AFTER THE FACT. Had he been in shock during the attack, he would have been paralyzed and not killed the bear. That's how shock works. Just because he doesn't remember handling the situation, it bears no relevance on the fact that he did, in fact, handle the situation, as evidenced by the dead bear pic and him telling the story today.

Our Floridian in question had his wits about him enough to find the horses, ride up to the top of the ridge, and make a phone call. And then guide that horse away from danger. (And then fly home!) He knew exactly what he was doing. A lot of it may be a blur now, but he clearly had his wits about him at the time sufficiently to give a fairly detailed account of the event, listing his throwing of the gun and seeing the guide on his feet battling the sow when he left the scene.

The only thing akbow's story proves, is that akbow handled a similar situation like a boss.

From: mn_archer
20-Sep-18
If you guys are good for anything its entertainment.

Yes there was a gun laying on the ground and maybe he could've gotten to it. maybe not. But he already tried to use it and couldn't get it going.

Glocks are simple to operate if you are familiar with handguns. Maybe not so simple if you are not a gun guy.

He already tried to use it and it failed. Was it as simple as there was not a round in the chamber or was it a broken firing pin?

Why would he make a move gir a gun that already failed him and he abandoned? Should he have used it as a club?

20-Sep-18
I said it earlier - If you've watched any TV or movies in the past 25 years, you know how to put one in the chamber on a Glock. When I bought my first one, I did not have to read the owner's manual to know how it worked and I grew up with no guns in the house. This guy is a hunter and a hunter serious enough to travel across the country to hunt. I'd expect this from a Los Angeles esthetician student or a New York City liberal arts major, not a Floridian hunter.

This whole point is irrelevant though. The guy had his wits about him enough to know that he needed to get the gun to the guy who could use it and that's why he threw it in the first place. Arguing the woulda-shoulda-coulda is silly as so many have pointed out. The point is that he left. He made the decision to leave 3 times. When he ran, after the dust had settled some on the ridge after he'd made the phone call and was on the horse, and when he decided to fly home before the man was found.

I agree with you that saying in hindsight what could have been done is silly. My point is not what he could have done, but what he did do, and that was flee X 3.

When else is it ok to leave a man to die? Are there other instances where you're the only one that can help and yet you choose to save your own skin? Is there some unwritten law with outfitted hunts whereas the guide is expected to take one for the team and you're free to save your skin?

My answers to those questions are never, no, and no, respectively.

From: Huntcell
20-Sep-18
That ‘gittin outa Dodge’ that quick seems unique. You would think you would have to hang around for questioning or an inquiry, if not actually show them the location. How do ya book or rebook a flight on such short notice or was it a private plane?

Leaving for moose hunting north of Yellowstone tommorow will have a 9oz. Canister of bear spray strapped to my chest hope the bear appreciates the seasoning.

From: Bowfreak
20-Sep-18
I agree that we don't know what we would do in a stressful situation until it happens. I also agree with Ike in that I can say that if I was lucid enough to remember a man standing fighting for his life against a bear and able to hear his screams, there is no way I leave. I die with him if I have to do so. I'm like anyone else in that I prefer to not be eaten by a bear but I also would not have been able to walk away from my friend who was more than likely set to die a painful death.

I do think the guide was complacent and it cost him his life. Why do you have a pistol with no round racked? Also....if you are coming back the next day to recover a wounded elk, why not bring a 12ga with a whole mag full of slugs or some huge bored rifle? Or two of any combination? I'd still have my sidearm too. This country in WY is no joke and infested with bears that have no fear of the only predator that possibly has a chance at killing them.

Stay safe Hunt.

From: akbow
20-Sep-18
I appreciate your comments Idyll and can see your point after rereading the story--the first story I read had lots of holes in it. I can still see someone in a state of shock/adrenaline rush fleeing the scene initially just based on instinct, but to not return to the scene with backup to help is not the right thing to do. I was back out there the next day with a trooper (who made me skin the bear myself with no help--on crutches, but that's a whole 'nother story). But, to say I handled it like a boss might be a stretch. I don't have much memory about the incident, but it was pretty evident by the tracks/marks/shell casings in the dry streambed that I wasn't very efficient at getting the killing done. I found 3 spent shotgun casings and one unfired one laying on the ground. I'm probably lucky for the lack of memory--I often wonder what I was thinking when I was laying on my back fighting her off with my feet and the shotgun goes "click". I imagine I was pretty upset! I also agree that the hunter should have been more prepared going into grizzly country. But, I still maintain the guide and/or outfitter has even more responsibility to protect/prepare their guides and client. Hopefully, this will come as a lesson to all guides/outfitters to be better prepared--as well as the general public and hunters especially. One last note--for anyone hunting in grizzly country, I am not a proponent of bear spray. I know there are all kinds of studies that support and say it is a better/equivalent deterrent. But, in my opinion, those studies are biased toward what I would call "bluff charges". I agree that pepper spray would probably deter most, if not all, bluff charges--which are probably the most common type of charge. I don't believe for one second that it would have deterred the sow that came at me. She took a shotgun blast at point blank range-twice--before letting me loose. Once it was so close the hair on her chest was burned off. I strongly suggest guys that are hunting in grizzly country to at least strap on a 44 mag -I am not convinced in the high mag capacity theory of glocks--I was only able to get one shot off before she got to me--so high round clips would have done me no good. 44 mag minimum if not hunting with shotgun/rifle.

From: TD
20-Sep-18
People are assuming knowledge and experience there that wasn't there. Unrealistic equating your knowledge and experience you think he should have inherently or instinctively had.

That obviously wasn't the case. Does not make the person a coward. Helplessness is not cowardice. Another possibility with no round chambered and a reported hand injury..... it takes two hands to rack my glock, I don't think I can do it one handed. Point is we don't know. And learning the operation of a handgun while on the wrong end of a bear is also a bit much to ask I would think.

If asking a bunch of "whys"...... why didn't the guide, who had bear spray on him, use it on the bear while it was on his hunter? He used it later. Injuries? Shock? Paralyzed by fear like some claim the hunter was? Who knows? I certainly don't. And it would be stupid and foolish to say I did know what went on.... stating as fact even as to what men were thinking..... good grief.....

IMO you can call them unprepared, (both actually in hindsight, hindsight is a wonderful thing) but I don't think you could use "coward". You don't know those men. And don't really know how it went down. At that point in time given the actual realities and not what we think "should" have been the reality...... it was a no win situation.

If helpless in a situation, IMO you go get help. Yet another if....maybe if help came a bit sooner maybe this turns out differently. But it didn't, real help wouldn't be there till the next morning. Who ya gonna blame that one on? If the hunter had been killed and the guide survived there would be those here ragging on the guide because he survived.... he should have done..... more....

WRT the trip home..... nobody here knows jack about that either. One of the articles I read said he and his father were hounded by media the entire time for "his story". He gave his report to WFG and authorities. But it was a full blown circus after that. You might think that's just a lot of fun being in the spotlight and all, but I wouldn't care for it. Especially after an ordeal like that. Maybe his wife and family were having a meltdown at home..... maybe the trauma of the attack had him or the father freaked out, who knows. But it's completely ridiculous for people to speculate as to why, especially when all it seems to serve as is some odd piling on of hate for bowhunter that was mauled by a grizzly. This guy did not kill the guide. None of this can be laid at his feet. It was a bear attack, two bears actually. The bears killed him.

Good anology WRT the shark Ambush. Spot on.

WRT dying for a loved one..... that's ridiculous. The guide may or may not have even been a friend, but irrelevant. I'd give a kidney to a loved one to save their lives. But I'm not going to give it to somebody I just happen to have met on the street. Or any of you for that matter, while I'm alive anyway. You can do what you want with yours...... but I guess I'm just a wuss and a coward when it comes to my kidneys..... body parts in general.....

From: BIG BEAR
20-Sep-18
Did you see the TV interview with him Tom ?? Minor scratch on his right bicep. Minor scratch on his knee. Scratch on ankle. No visible injuries or problems with his hands.

Why is that a ridiculous question Tom ??? We’re not talking about donating a kidney here..... We’re talking about putting your life in immediate imminent danger..... life threatening......... Would you do it for your family ?? Would you run into a burning building if it was possible...... to save a family member ??? And would you do the exact same thing for a stranger ????

Hounded by a full blown circus of media ?????? They didn’t even find his elk until early afternoon on Friday....... By the time the attack occurred and he returned it was too late for authorities to go in and look for the guide......... So you’re telling me that a full blown hounding media circus occurred in Wyoming on Friday evening ????? How would the media even know where to find him Friday evening ???

From: Bou'bound
20-Sep-18
This concept that some would expect family members and strangers to be treated identically in life and death situations is lost on me

That is not to say I would or wouldn’t do all within reason to help a stranger but to say I would do the same thing For a person I met three days ago in Basecamp that I would do for my wife son or daughter would be a lie on my part. I would not Take the same risks with my life to save a stranger that I would play save a family member yes the rest in question had a high likelihood of me leaving my loved ones widowed or fatherless

Chris I believe you actually may and you probably do each and every day as a police officer willingly risk your life for absolute strangers. some of whom neither deserve it nor appreciate it. Howver to think the average human being would not differentiate between taking a risk with their own life for a family member or a new acquaintance is a lot to expect

I’m actually not sure for those who claim they would not differentiate whether that is more of an indictment on their Commitment to their own family then it is A badge of honor regarding their commitment to the stranger

From: petedrummond
20-Sep-18
Problem is the story is full of holes. I need to know if any shots were fired. Who if anyone had bear spray and how much. Why such minimal wounds. Why did bear leave the survivor. Did the guide risk his life to divert bear off survivor? Did the survivor start shooting st bears first? Were bears hit by bullets? Lots questions. Puncture wounds seem inconsistent with violent shaking no tearing of skin and no hematoma. In fact no bruise at all

From: petedrummond
20-Sep-18
Also woods too far apart for bear canines. Look just like self inflicted knife wounds.

From: Ambush
20-Sep-18
Petedrummond. The answers to all your questions are contained in the official WFG reports. They are the only facts I’d go with. Not other people’s comments on the facts or “news” outlets.

From: BIG BEAR
20-Sep-18
Grant.... I look at it as a commitment to mankind. I would rather die trying to do the right thing than go home safely to my family to say I wasn’t willing to try.....

Thank you for your honesty..... Most here won’t answer the question because they don’t like the answer they will give.

And you’re right...... If I wanted to play it safe in life for my family’s sake,, I never would have survived 25 years (and counting) as a Police Officer....

From: Bowfreak
20-Sep-18
Keep in mind...I would be hunting with a friend. Someone I consider close. I simply look at it as hunting with my buddy from WY that I just left.

No way I leave him to die alone.

If I met up with other guys on this thread and thought enough to hunt with them, I'd die with them too.

From: petedrummond
20-Sep-18
I got eyes ambush. I am familiar with this stuff. I see knife wounds. I dont see bruising. I see a bear with canines ten inches wide. What do you see.

20-Sep-18
"This concept that some would expect family members and strangers to be treated identically in life and death situations is lost on me"

I don't think that was his point, at least, that's not how I took it, but I think most fathers would go above and beyond the call of duty, in fact, putting their lives in great risk - even certain death - for their children.

Still, this wasn't a complete stranger. This was a guy he went into the wilderness with. IMO, you have more responsibility towards someone you're partnered up with for a dangerous situation. Don't forget, while safety/security was certainly more the guide's responsibility than the client's (since he's the 'guide'), the client did hire the guide to take him (the client) into a dangerous situation.

If your truck broke down on the side of the highway and someone stopped and helped you get it running again and in the process, got stuck in the mud in the ditch, if you're a good person, you'd recognize that you have more responsibility to help out the person that just helped you out and wouldn't just drive off saying "thanks, see ya," when you wouldn't necessarily and automatically stop to help every car on the side of the highway full of "perfect strangers" that you passed by otherwise.

And again, he was the only one that could have made a difference. The attacking was happening. He died, apparently, shortly thereafter from a bite to the head. The guide had probably minutes, maybe hours, but probably minutes for someone to intervene and the only one that could have done it was the client.

In situations where you're the only one that can help and that help has to come right now, you have heroes and you have cowards. Heroes go towards danger and cowards go away from it.

I'm sorry, but in my book, it's never ok to leave your hunting partner to die.

From: BIG BEAR
20-Sep-18
High School cross country star Sean English lost his leg trying to help the victims of a roll over accident on the freeway.... when he got struck by another car........

I would rather die trying to be like Sean English than to live like the coward in the Parkland School shooting Scot Peterson......

Now I know this guy had no legal requirement to act...... like Peterson did.........

But I choose to live my life trying to be like Sean English.....

From: jdee
20-Sep-18
A lot of you guys on here have talked about how you cry when you kill an animal or your wife won't let you go. I think most of you have been watching to many movies. There was nothing that the hunter could do at the time he left except get killed. If you think you're hero material well....... the USMC is hiring. Go find out if you've got what it takes instead of trying to convince us you do.

From: BIG BEAR
20-Sep-18
“Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyways “.......... John Wayne......

And he didn’t mean saddle up and run........

From: TD
20-Sep-18
They flew the hunter out via helicopter. Flown straight to st johns medical center in Jackson. Was plenty of light for that then, did not search for the guide was what I read, flew straight to medical for treatment. A separate trip made and the location was found, but determined not safe to search at that time.

"Using the description from Chubon, searchers in a helicopter were able to locate the elk carcass that caused conflict around 7 p.m. Friday. There was less than an hour of daylight left, and the call was made to suspend the search until sunup Saturday.

“We ran out of flight time,” Carr said. “Helicopter restrictions don’t allow us to fly past a hard-and-fast time. And by that point, we couldn’t get ground teams in. The risk to the rescuers was far too great at that moment.” They didn't risk their lives to go in and save the man? Who at that time may or may not have been alive? Likely a smart call..... but.....crickets.....

They went back out saturday first light, knowing the exact location of the elk carcass. Being only 50 yards from the elk..... a 20 man search team..... don't know or I have read nothing as to the exact time that the body was found. It didn't take long I would think. But again..... I. Don't. Know.

Hunter flew home saturday afternoon. That he left with out knowing the fate.... as with EVERYTHING everyone "knows" so far..... don't really know. WAG..... I'd say he knew, he was told quite some time before he left. But one person, who doesn't know it as fact but states it as so, says "he flew home before they even found his guide!" and wow.... it's taken as gospel truth..... blood in the water....

That's the problem. Conclusions as to events and even state of mind and character...... not just jumped to..... sky diving to...... and piled on.

I don't know. And I haven't seen anyone here yet who actually does.

From: jdee
20-Sep-18
lol.... there you go. John Wayne was a Hollywood actor "made" in Hollywood. If you want to quote a real hero quote.... LCPL Jason Dunham - USMC

From: BIG BEAR
20-Sep-18
LCPL Dunham gallantly gave his life for his country and his fellow Marines.......... A true American hero and a life well lived !!!

From: Ucsdryder
20-Sep-18

Ucsdryder's embedded Photo
Bear medicine. Glock 29 with extended barrel to handle hard cast lead, 11 rounds of 230 grain hard cast.
Ucsdryder's embedded Photo
Bear medicine. Glock 29 with extended barrel to handle hard cast lead, 11 rounds of 230 grain hard cast.
I believe every point and counter point has been made at least 50 times. I’ll just say this...obviously this hits close to home for ALL of us, which is evident by the passion this thread has brought out in many. We’re all sad for the guide and more importantly his family and specifically his kids.

Would we have liked to see a hero feel good story involving the hunter running up, pistol in hand and saving the guide? Hell yes! There are too many questions we can’t answer to know if that was feasible or if any action other than retreating would have led to 2 dead people.

What’s left? Lessons...

For you guys that hunt grizzly bear country...learn from this.

Be vigilant around a kill...have a lookout! Bring backup...guns and people! Know your equipment and make sure everyone in your hunting party knows your equipment (guns). Always keep a gun in a quality holster and keep it loaded for the love of God!!!

20-Sep-18
Good post and points.

From: Mule Power
20-Sep-18
I'm no coward that's for sure. I don't have many heroes because anyone who does something considered heroic was just doing what I'd probably have done. Either that or in my opinion it just wasn't as big of a deal as others and/or the media hype it up to be.

That said I'm not sure whether I'd rather be a dead hero or a living coward but.... I don't want to die because I was a fool! That guide did nothing in advance to save his own life. It would be nice to be able to depend on others for the things you need in life. But your success, or survival, is ultimately your own responsibility. Sometimes that means enabling others to help you with that if it appears it may be necessary. Without a doubt going to recover an elk killed the day before in grizzlie country falls into that category.

What professional guide wouldn't somehow prepare a greenhorn coward from Florida to cover his @$$ while he was cutting apart bear food? Seriously. Regardless of what actions that hunter did or didn't take under the circumstances the guide... and outfitter are responsible for the situation becoming what it was. Period.

I can honestly say that I have the ability to remain calm as well as any man here. But who here can say that there NEVER comes a time where it's time to admit defeat instead of deciding that suicide is honorable enough to leave your loved ones behind?

To suggest that a man who has already tried to use a handgun and failed and is shaking like an aspen leaf in the wind should proceed toward a bear, a sow with a cub, that just attacked him and give it another try is well.... pretty impressive. Those guys can feel free to PM me so we can plan our 2019 unarmed cape buffalo hunt.

One more thing.... I've hunted solo in Alaska with bear spray in a holster on the shoulder strap of my pack where it was easily accessible because I thought I might need it.. That's a special feeling. But in no way does it compare to walking up on a day old kill in an area where the bears aren't hunted and then quartering it out. Regardless of the size of your balls if you do that you're a fool. To have an unarmed flatlander standing there watching you isn't a whole lot different either.

From: Michael
20-Sep-18
I can understand the hunter running to call for help. Him leaving once help arrived or worse yet leaving the state is puzzling.

From: Norseman
20-Sep-18
Could the Med vac chopper have brought others that would stay and look for Uptain when they came for Chubon? I mean he was only found 50 yards from the initial attack.

From: stealthycat
20-Sep-18
" Glocks are simple to operate if you are familiar with handguns. Maybe not so simple if you are not a gun guy. "

I think anyone knows how to pull trigger - which is literally all you have to do with a Glock.

I cannot imagine it wasn't loaded.

From: Ambush
20-Sep-18
Stealth, there was no round in the chamber.

The only plausible reason for someone to throw away their only means of defence is because they couldn’t use that means. The man simply could not make the gun go bang. The guide very likely yelled at him to throw it so he could use it.

Think about it. If you are in a situation where a gun may save your life and it’s only your own life you’re concerned about, why would you throw that gun away?!?

The gun was found unfired with an empty chamber.

From: JD_Oregon
20-Sep-18
I’ve not read every post...I’m sure my feelings have been perhaps reflected. As a human being, hunter aside, I do not understand how a person could run from such a scenario while moments before holding a weapon that could likely influence the outcome. It’s unfathomable to me. I understand the guide could have set the hunter up for success. That’s not mine to argue. I’m stuck on the act of humanity aspect. Heroes happen everyday that aren’t prepared. The hunter had a choice to make and he chose to flee his fellow man. Guide or not. I hope the hunter (Corey) quits bowhunting and hunting completely. If he dare enter the woods again I hope the weight of his guide’s life, his guide’s wife and five kids weigh heavily on him. His actions were cowardly and disgusting. Perhaps France is accepting immigrants. He should move.

From: TD
20-Sep-18
Yes. I have to agree. You have not read every post.....

From: GF
20-Sep-18
Couple thoughts...

Apparently, the guide was last seen on his feet.

Pretty sure I read that the sow had enough pepper spray on her head/face that it could be seen and felt on her fur. And I believe the spray can was found empty. Uptain was found a little ways away from the kill, apparently having gotten there under his own power.

I think the guide had the spray on him, as he should have.

I also think he made a fatal error in believing that one good dose of the spray would result in that bear being gone for good. I don’t recall ever reading about a bear that came back until this one, though there is a documented lion incident from CA where an aggressive Tom shook off several doses of human-strength spray and continued to press the attack.

Anyway, in this case, the non-lethal deterrent proved deadly for the guide when the bear came at him again and his canister was empty.

One other thing... A lot of people seem to be assuming that the initial attack was defensive, but I don’t think so. The bull had been gutted and quartered and the guide was taking the head when the sow charged. Those guys didn’t wander into her space; they’d been on the scene for probably a couple hours when she blew in outta nowhere. So I don’t think she was protecting the cub.

More likely she saw movement where her nose said the kill was, and she charged in to chase off whatever had killed it. Might explain why she left off of the client when he ran, and if the guide was countering from behind, he would've gotten her full attention.

From: CW
20-Sep-18
Everyone can have an opinion. It does seem as though some of you are basing opinions partially on assumptions rather than just the facts that were reported. I'd like to be a bit more sensitive to those involved than to rush to judgement.

Sure it would be helpful to know why the gun didn't function. However, I'm sure that at this time nobody involved feels it is their priority to inform a bunch of pre-judgemental internet folk in on every last inquiry they have. Rather, given the situation, I think they have more important concerns right now than to give a hoot about what some uninvolved people's somewhat uninformed opinions are.

God help those involved and there families. A constructive critique of the situation to learn from the experience is one thing, but going out of your way to call someone a coward will help no one- regardless of whether or not you are correct.

20-Sep-18
I agree GF. I wouldn't doubt if that sow had driven a dozen+ hunters off of their kills in her time. She came in looking for dinner and she knew how to do it.

I also have a lot of faith in bear spray, but my opinion is that I think it works at the range it's supposed to work at, which is 10 yards. If you're getting munched on and you spray a bear, I think at that point it's too late. Your only hope at that point is to spray and get away or otherwise, it's a gun.

This is why I generally carry both.

From: CW
20-Sep-18
So in a school or other mass shooting is everyone that runs out of the building a coward? Based on some opinions, those people are fleeing knowing that others are still in danger.

So I keep seeing the question, "would you flee if it was your child?" I'll bite... If it was my child, there is absolutely no way I'd have them in that situation. Further, the question implies one would have time to make a logical decision. If I was in the hunter's situation and did theoretically have time to contemplate a decision, as I have now, I'm still not sure of what I would do. Sure it's macho to be the hero, or die trying; but if true thought is put into the decision, I'm not sure my young kids and wife would appreciate my suicidal act just to be macho. Is it more heroic to risk your life against the odds, or suck up your pride, and know your first and foremost responsibilities are to raise the children you brought into the world?

From: Beaux
20-Sep-18
Me and hunting buddies all agree to come home together or die trying. Its something that comes up every year at the fire usually on the first night on the mountain. Much respect for the guide as a man, goin hand to hand on the side of a mountain with a griz. Watchin the bitch from florida out the corner of eye rollin off on ur horses. Had to be a shity feeling. God speed,

From: Dirk Diggler
21-Sep-18
Its something knowledge can be gained from. A two man/guide hunt is a pretty common occurrence every fall. Spikeing out 15 miles into the wilderness is common as well. I don't know how far back they were but those saying the outfitter should have sent more guides to recover the elk dont know how far back they were either. There seems there was some complacency but as someone else mentioned finding the elk undisturbed would make you exhale, maybe let your guard down a bit. From the outside lookin in it seems the hunter had little familiarity with the guides type of pistol, not uncommon either. Can't pretend to imagine how fast that situation went bad. Again from the few details we have so far it seems the guide drew the bear away from his client, probably knowing this wasn't gonna end well. Can't help but admire his last act. Just a bad deal all the way around.

21-Sep-18
CW, school shootings are apples to oranges. But since you brought it up, you're talking about children here. So if they run, they're not cowards. They're children and that's what we'd expect them to do, just like we'd expect them to cry when they fall and skin their knee. If I saw a 25 year old man cry from falling and skinning his knee, I'd seriously question his manhood.

As far as the adults, if you're a man and you're in a school and there's a shooting, if you're faced with a situation where you could potentially subdue the shooter, then yes, you should die trying. You should be the hero and not a coward and die trying. Otherwise, you should do your best to scuttle the children to safety. And their safety, not your own, should be your primary concern.

That's what men do. We save women and children first, and then we worry about our own lives. Otherwise, we're cowards.

No one can blame a man for panicking and saving his own skin; that's in some men's natures. But then others cannot fault men for labeling that man a coward.

From: TD
21-Sep-18
Ike, it was explained to me once that made good sense.....to me anyway. Bear spray works on most bears most of the time.... but when a grizzly is committed to attacking/killing something, switched on, they are all in. Bear spray is just pain or even injury to them. Like a lethal shot with a firearm that likely will kill them..... might not stop them. When they commit and are switched on, at that point they turn pain into rage. At that point the only stopping them is central nervous system disconnect. Brain/spine. Spray can't do that. Blow their heart out and it won't do it in time. (ask Hatchet Jack....) Only a good, near perfect shot with a firearm can turn that circuit off.

From: deerslayer
21-Sep-18
To read that his last sight of Uptain was him fighting off the bear is just insane to process. The man is taking on the fury of what was just trying to kill you and you leave him behind and "try to get help"???? I don't have to have been attacked by a griz to know that's just crazy selfish. Like Ike said, even climbing a tree and yelling is better than that.

As others have alluded to, whatever doubts I may have had regarding his behavior are quickly put to rest in his behavior in the aftermath. I can't imagine being Uptain, fighting a griz for my life, and the only other human being on the planet that could help, leaves. I can't imagine what must have been going through Uptain's mind when the last sight he had of Chuban was him leaving......

Ike you're spot on with your comment: "No one can blame a man for panicking and saving his own skin; that's in some men's natures. But then others cannot fault men for labeling that man a coward. "

On the reverse Uptain was an incredible man for his heroism. From what I've read about his life I'm sure he must have read "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends"

21-Sep-18
TD, the way I think bear spray works at 10 yards is that it temporarily blinds the bear and you have just enough room/time to get away. And most charges are bluff charges. That's my theory anyways. Once they have you in their paws, they don't need their eyes to scratch and bite, so if you're able to spray both eyes, then you also have to then be able to get out of their grasp and get away and I think that's a tall task, unless you've hit both eyes before they contact you. That's where the pistol comes into play. Frankly, I think that putting a running bear down at 20-50 yards with a pistol is a pipe dream for anyone but the extremely lucky and the extremely skilled.

That's how I've always imagined it playing out. I'd prefer to use the spray. Most charges are bluff charges. I don't want to lose 1-2 days of a hunting trip due to the rigors of explaining a depredation kill and processing the animal. Plus, I'm pretty damn accurate with bear spray at 10 yards. I think that when you're on your back, your only hope is a gun.

In 2016, there were over 20 depredation bear kills on Kodiak Island due to an absent salmon run and bears looking for other food sources. Most Kodiak hunters are rifle hunters. Most of those bears didn't have to die. Still, I fault not one single shooter for skipping the spray and making sure.

From: casper
21-Sep-18
just my two cents worth here but if i was hunting in Grizz country like i have i would also have my own bear spray on me and maybe could have have sprayed that sow enough to stop that attack. All semi auto hand guns are similar rack one in and figure out the safety and get firing. I just couldn't run away on a horse, at that point your in to deep and its your responsibility to help. I doubt the outfitter would have turned tail and ran from the client if the tables were turned.

From: stringgunner
21-Sep-18
Deerslayer said “On the reverse Uptain was an incredible man for his heroism. From what I've read about his life I'm sure he must have read "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends"

This ^^^^

I agree.

From: Matt
21-Sep-18
This thread is embarrassing. The notion that a rational but injured person should risk taking on not one but 2 bears unarmed because there is a chance he could regain control of a pistol that he apparently did not know how to use in the first place is innane.

There likely would have been 2 humans dead. But had the hunter been killed trying to save the guide at least the Bowsite peanut gallery would have been satisfied. Stupid.

From: Orion
21-Sep-18
a couple superficial scratches does not equal injured

From: TD
21-Sep-18
Plenty of missing answers. Like why when the guide had the spray on his belt, why was it not deployed at the attack site? The only place they found traces according to reports were 50 yards away where he was killed? He was apparently on his feet at one point. Blinded? Panicked? Shock? Likely never know.....

You aren't "hunting partners" like good friends going on a hunt..... He hired a guide and likely had just met the guide for the first time a short time before. Honestly, as the guide, I would have done all I could to make sure the client made it to safety, not further endanger himself trying to save my azz. The only worse outcome IMO (besides they both die) was for the guide to survive and the client die. That would have been total failure. In some ways, saving the client salvages some things that went horribly wrong. He was the guides responsibility, it comes with the job.

I would have been yelling for him to get out of there ASAP. (we don't know, he very well might have) If he had reentered the fight (defenseless) I'd be screaming WTF are you doing! The safety of the client was one of the main missions of the guide. Professionals take that very seriously. His family should be proud he did what he did. RIP.

From: shade mt
21-Sep-18
I think a lot of stuff posted is just speculation...How could we possibly know what ACTUALLY happened and HOW it happened ? Truthfully the only guy that now knows is the hunter who survived, He alone knows if there was anything else he could do. However I do know that seeing the guide on his feet and trying to fight off the bear would be really tough to leave.

Was there anything else he could do? none of us really know. If however the guy actually did board a plane and head home before he knew the outcome? If that is REALLY true....it speaks volumes. prayers to all involved.

From: Owl
21-Sep-18
"But had the hunter been killed trying to save the guide at least the Bowsite peanut gallery would have been satisfied. Stupid." - In reality, that is the debate - sacrificing oneself to placate herd mentality. And, in general, I support measures that counter dying for 3rd party illogical psychological constructs.

From: Bowfreak
21-Sep-18
Matt,

While we probably differ on reasons we see as such, I can agree with you that this thread is embarrassing.

From: Mule Power
21-Sep-18
Holy lack of facts! If you haven’t resd the accouuof events please refrain from commenting!

I’m surprised the bear came back after being sprayed! You didn’t read squat. The speay was realeased at point blank range most likely at the very end of the encounter.

Watching a man going hand to hand to save your life? Um.... he was saving his own @$$.

Ike you seem to have a death wish. I understand your save the women and children mentality but there’s a line somewhere between that way of thinking an plain suicide.

You yoyos who say... but there was a gun right there! Stfu.... it might as well have been a bb gun. Not loaded and already failed.... or didn’t go off because the guide failed to put a round in the chamber.

That hunter might have made some hasty decisions. But for God’s sake everything is hasty during a bear attack. The guide made stupid decisions... or none, under calm conditions prior to the whole ordeal. Therefore he is at fault that the attack was elevated to the level it was in the first place.

“I don’t know how far in they were so those saying they should have sent more guides blah blah blah” They came from camp. Yeah you’ve read enough to comment.

From: GotBowAz
21-Sep-18
Mule Power, dont be so hard on Ike, I would probably be bear poop too with or without a gun, bear spray or throwing rocks. I cant believe I would have left the guide or anyone else being attacked. I read the story and all of the evidence up to this point and its still not real clear exactly how it played out. I dont blame anyone under these circumstances, specially after being attacked themselves to save their own hineys and get out. I just could not have done it. Like I said, I may have become bear poop, then again there might have been some chance I could have saved us both. Either way Im going to die trying. If you want to call it suicide have at it but Ike's example of a shooter in a classroom is spot on as far as im concerned.

From: EMB
21-Sep-18
Matt, +1

From: Mule Power
21-Sep-18
I’m just a sympathetic soul and so I don’t like finger pointing. We weren’t there so......

From: Dirk Diggler
21-Sep-18

Dirk Diggler's Link

From: Old School
21-Sep-18
Come on Joe - you’re from PA. You’re wrecking the stereotype with “I’m just a sympathetic soul” stuff. I hear PA and envision Philly or Steeler fans. “Sympathetic soul, no finger pointing” is not what comes to mind.

-Mitch

From: Mule Power
21-Sep-18
I’m not much of a football fan Mitch. Too many egos.

But I was a Montana outfitter for enough years to sympathize with the honest hard working ones and despise the crappy ones. If I was the outfitter sho employed that guide I would feel worse than anyone involved.

From: Old School
21-Sep-18
I totally agree with that position Joe.

While I can’t imagine the guilt I would feel for leaving a man to fend for himself against a Griz, I also cannot imagine the guilt of sending that guide and client into that situation. Hopefully some good comes of this whole tragedy.

I know when I killed my bull in the Scapegoat Wilderness, the guide gave my dad strict orders to watch for grizzlies while the guide and I quartered my bull. He also told my dad “watch the horses as they will tell you a bear is coming before you ever see or hear it”

He was a good outfitter and gave us good bear advice - we had that talk before we left the trailhead. “If we encounter a grizzly, get your horse turned around so it can’t see the bear and get out of there. Your horse will kill you before the bear will.”

I didn’t care for the rides back to camp in the dark. Eerie feeling being in Griz country on a horse packing out a mulie in the dark.

- Mitch

From: kyrob
21-Sep-18
Prayers up for the guide and his family.

What would have happened if the hunter had of got on the horse, grabbed the other horses and rode right into the bear screaming like a wild man. Seems a 250 lb bear would have took off when she saw a couple thousand lbs of horses coming at her. Be kinda like seeing Brock Lesner coming at you full bore x2. Anyway, bad deal all around for all involved. Be safe.

From: Dirk Diggler
21-Sep-18
Good luck gettin a horse to charge a grizz, they're few and far between.

From: Fuzzy
21-Sep-18
kyrob wins funniest comment so far ;)

From: Mule Power
21-Sep-18
Dirk you’re a mind reader. The horse would have launched him backward where he would have died from blunt force trama to the head. Come to think of it that was probably his best option. Beats being alive and called a coward!

From: BIG BEAR
21-Sep-18
I don’t like being told to STFU Mule....... The gun was loaded.... It was found at the scene with a full magazine and an empty chamber. It didn’t fail. The hunter did. He didn’t know how to work the slide to make it go bang.....

I would bet that everyone who has posted here can work the slide on a Glock. If you can’t.... and that is the only gun in your pack..... Don’t go hunting where there are grizzlys. Was that his guides fault for making sure he knew how to operate that gun. Yes. Was it the guides fault the gun was in the pack and not readily available while they were cutting up the elk. Yes.

If it turns out that I am wrong I will apologize.... Is it possible he had a malfunction with the pistol that he did not know how to clear ?? It doesn’t appear so,, since it was reported that the pistol was located.... with no malfunction noted.........

It was reported that the guides body was found at about 1:15 PM. Updated reports announcing that posted here are from 3 and 4 PM. If Chubon flew out in the afternoon..... I suppose it is possible that he knew the body was found before he got on his plane..... but not long before that.....

From: md5252
21-Sep-18
Fight or flight, simple as that...

When you know you’re going to die instinct takes over, not rational thought. It’s just 10,000yrs of human nature, nothing more nothing less.

From: Mule Power
21-Sep-18
Was my comment pointed directly at you angry bear? No.

To a guy who... as amazing as it is to you.... doesn’t know how to operate a hangun other than pull the trigger a gun without a round in the pipe is unloaded. Do you think it’s safe to say he pointed the gun and tried before tossing it? That or he followed his guide’s instructions.

For all we know the guide told him to run. For all we know... which certainly isn’t a lot of important facts.

From: Bowfreak
21-Sep-18
I don't think Ike has a desth wish. I think he's a normal guy who values human life.

From: Bou'bound
21-Sep-18
“Beats being alive and called a coward!”

Especially by a bunch of strangers who he does not even know exist or could care less about.

This has thread started as a tribute by hunters to a fellow outdoorsman and has devolved into nothing other than chatroom entertainment. We could just as easily be debating mechanicals vs fixed at this point

21-Sep-18
I’m amazed at the number of opinions, firearms experts & number of folks who get their drawers in a wad when someone disagrees with them.

I hope we all can agree we are glad WF&G found and killed the perps and that a science-based grizzly hunt is overdue.

From: kyrob
21-Sep-18
Here’s why I asked what I did. OUTDOORS Gutsy wrangler, huge horse save boy from charging grizzly Sun., Sept. 18, 2011, midnight

Erin Bolster, a wrangler for Swan Mountain Outfitters near Glacier Park, poses with her horse, Tonk. By Rich Landers richl@spokesman.com (509) 459-5508 Grizzlies are high profile this year.

A lingering winter and late berry crop kept bears in proximity to humans longer than normal, perhaps contributing to a stream of headlines about grizzlies killing people and people killing grizzlies.

Meanwhile, a young lady on a big horse charged out of the pack of grizzly stories near Glacier National Park. In a cloud of dust, the 25-year-old wrangler likely saved a boy’s life while demonstrating that skill, quick-thinking and guts sometimes are the best weapons against a head-on charging grizzly.

On July 30, Erin Bolster of Swan Mountain Outfitters was guiding eight clients on a horse ride on the Flathead National Forest between West Glacier and Hungry Horse, Mont.

“It’s the shortest ride we offer,” she said Wednesday, recalling the incident. “We’d already led two trips that morning. It’s always been a very routine hour-long loop, until that day.”

The group included a family of six plus a vacationing northern California man, who’d booked the trip for his 8-year-old son’s first horse-riding experience.

The young boy was riding Scout, a steady obedient mount, following directly behind Bolster, who was leading the group on Tonk, a burly 10-year-old white horse of questionable lineage.

Tonk isn’t the typical trail mount. Best anyone knows, he’s the result of cross-breeding a quarter horse with a Percheron – a draft horse. Bolster is 5-foot-10, yet she relies on her athleticism to climb into the saddle aboard Tonk.

“He was one of the horses we lease from Wyoming and bring in every year,” Bolster said, noting that she’d picked him from the stable in May to be hers for the season.

“He’s a very large horse – 18 hands high. That intimidates a lot of riders. But I’ve always loved big horses. He’s kind of high-strung and spooky, the largest of our wrangling horses. I like a horse with a lot of spirit, and I was really glad to be on him that day.”

Bolster has accumulated a wealth of experience on and around horses of national and even world class. She started riding at 4 years old, became a pro trainer at 15, graduated from high school at 16 in Roanoke, Va., and ran a riding academy for several years.

Seeking a more laid-back lifestyle, she wrangled in Costa Rica and the Dominican Republic before moving to Whitefish three years ago to guide tourists during the summer around Glacier National Park and ski through winter.

“It’s the country, the mountains and the idea of seeing lot of wildlife that appealed to me, ironically enough,” she said.

Bolster quickly racked bear experience, too, although until July 30, it was always at a distance.

“At the peak of the season, we were seeing bears daily,” she said. “The wranglers name them so we can let each other know where they are. Usually the bears just keep feeding in the distance or they run away when we come. Just seeing them is a treat for us and our guests.”

Because they guide around Glacier Park, bear awareness is part of the preparation wranglers get when hired by Swan Mountain Outfitters.

“We go over a lot of wildlife scenarios in our training,” Bolster said. “We learn to watch our horses for signals of possible trouble so we can steer clear.”

That’s the key, she said: Avoid trouble with a moose or a bear.

“We can’t use pepper spray when we’re riding because that could blind the horse,” she said. “And using a gun would spook the horses and probably produce more danger than safety.”

That’s how she went to work that day: a young but seasoned pro rider on a new, huge and spirited horse, unarmed in the wilderness with eight dudes.

“It was a pleasant ride until we came around a corner on the trail and my horse stopped firm and wouldn’t move,” Bolster said. “He never refuses to go, so that caught my attention quick.”

But not fast enough to avoid the spike white-tailed deer that burst out of the brush and glanced off Tonk’s left front shoulder.

As Tonk spun from the impact, Bolster saw a huge grizzly bear crashing through the forest right at the group in pursuit of the deer. Horses panicked and guests grabbed saddle horns for the ride of their lives.

“No amount of training could keep a horse from running from a 700-pound charging bear,” she said.

Seven of the horses sensed the danger, scrambled around and galloped back on the trail toward the barn.

But Scout bolted perpendicular to the trail into the timber packing the 8-year-old boy.

“The deer peeled off and joined the horses sprinting down the trail,” Bolster said. “So the bear just continued running right past me. I’m not sure the bear even knew the roles had changed, but now it was chasing a horse instead of a deer.”

The grizzly was zeroed in on Scout and the boy – the isolated prey in the woods.

Adding to the drama, the boy’s father, an experienced rider, could not convince his horse that it was a good plan to ride to his son’s rescue.

“The last thing he saw over his shoulder as his horse ran away was the grizzly chasing his boy,” Bolster said.

With the bear on Scout’s heels, Tonk’s instinct was to flee with the group of horses. But Tonk responded to Bolster’s heels in his ribs as she spun the big fella around. They wheeled out of a 360 and bolted into the trees to wedge between the predator and the prey.

“The boy was bent over, feet out of the stirrups, clutching the saddle horn and the horse’s neck,” she said. “That kept him from hitting a tree limb.

“But all I could think about was the boy falling off in the path of that grizzly.

“I bent down, screamed and yelled, but the bear was growling and snarling and staying very focused on Scout.

“As it tried to circle back toward Scout, I realized I had to get Tonk to square off and face the bear. We had to get the bear to acknowledge us.

“We did. We got its attention – and the bear charged.

“So I charged at the bear.”

Did she think twice about that?

“I had no hesitation, honestly,” Bolster said. “Nothing in my body was going to let that little boy get hurt by that bear. That wasn’t an option.”

Tonk was on the same page.

With a ton of horse, boulder-size hooves and a fire-breathing blonde thundering at it, the bear came within about 10 feet before skittering off to the side.

But it quickly angled to make yet another stab at getting to Scout and the boy – who had just fallen to the ground.

“Tonk and I had to go at the bear a third time before we finally hazed him away,” she said.

“The boy had landed in some beargrass and was OK. Scout was standing nearby.”

Bolster gathered the boy up with her on Tonk, grabbed Scout’s lead and trotted down the trail.

“The boy was in shock,” she said. “I looked back and could see the bear had continued to go away through he woods, but I had another five or 10 minutes of riding before I got back with the group.”

Not until she reunited with her riders – all OK and standing in various stages of confusion with their horses – did she start to shake.

“I looked at Tonk, and he was wet with sweat and shaking, too,” she said.

She was especially concerned for the boy’s father, who probably suffered the most terror in the ordeal.

“He was fine, and I got my biggest tip of the season,” Bolster said. “My biggest hope is that the boy isn’t discouraged from riding. This was a one-in-a-million event.”

For the next few days, the outfitter shut down the trail rides and Bolster joined other wranglers and a federal grizzly bear expert to ride horses through the area looking for the bear.

“They tracked it for a long way and concluded that it kept going out of the area,” she said. “Judging from the tracks and my description of how high the bear came up on Tonk, the grizzly expert estimated it weighed 700-750 pounds.

“This was a case of us being in the wrong place as a bear was already in the act of chasing its natural prey. He was probably more persistent because he was really hungry.”

Bolster and the other wranglers vowed to have bear spray on their belts to make sure they can defend their guests during breaks on the ground.

“But when you’re riding, the horse is your best protection, if you can stay on,” she said.

“Some of the horses I’ve ridden would have absolutely refused to do what Tonk did; others would have thrown me off in the process. Some horses can never overcome their flight-animal instinct to run away.”

In those minutes of crisis, the big lug of mongrel mount proved his mettle in a test few trail horses will face in their careers.

Tonk’s grit moved Bolster. She wasn’t about to send him back to Wyoming with the other leased horses.

“Two weeks ago, I closed the deal and bought him,” Bolster said as she was wrapping up her 2011 wrangling season.

“After what he did that day, he had to be mine.”

Fund for Tonk

In response to readers who consider Tonk a hero horse that ought to be well cared for during winter in his new Montana home, some readers have offered donations to the cause. An account has been set up through Swan Mountain Outfitters:

Erin Bolster

c/o Swan Mountain Outfitters

P.O. Box 130278

Coram, MT 59913

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From: petedrummond
21-Sep-18
Wow kentucky born and bred.

From: Medicinemann
21-Sep-18
….The boy was fine, and I got my biggest tip of the season...."

No surprise there.....

From: GF
21-Sep-18
Rob... SERIOUSLY???

"That’s how she went to work that day: a young but seasoned pro rider on a new, huge and spirited horse,"

“Some of the horses I’ve ridden would have absolutely refused to do what Tonk did; others would have thrown me off in the process. Some horses can never overcome their flight-animal instinct to run away.”

So you're asking why a client from Florida didn't grab onto a plug trailhorse and make like an Amazon sitting astride a War-horse...

Frankly, I'm amazed that he was able to get to and up onto the horse in the first place; and then how did he stick with him at a dead gallop?

From: TD
21-Sep-18
As a kid my buddy and I tried to pack out a dead black bear on horses that had packed a bunch of dead deer but never a bear. Would have been better off just to go in and pack it out ourselves on our backs, that's how it wound up anyway. Could have avoided a few rodeos, bruises, scratches, bites and chasing down and catching freaked out horses and collecting scattered gear and parts of bear in the mountains. Horses won. Had to leave the bear, walk out the horses and then go back in for the bear again. It was a very long day.

Yeah..... charge the bears with the horses...... pretty much the way this thread has gone for sure.....

From: Dirk Diggler
21-Sep-18
Kinda proves my point Myron, the rest of em, and thousands like em, turned tail and ran with no regard for the rider on their back. As was stated in the article the predator/prey fight/or flight is deeply engrained in horses. The odds of bein ln one are about as good as me breaking the B&C world record nontypical elk record next month. There was a lot of poetic license in that article. If you find yourself in that situation, don't bank on old dollar actin like tonk!

From: Dirk Diggler
21-Sep-18
Kyrob not myron. What happened to the damn edit button on this site?!

From: jdee
21-Sep-18
X100 Matt. Damn thread is getting even stranger. I have owned horses all my life. We have 8 good mountain quarter horses right now and if you think for a second one of them would charge into a rageing brown bear you need your head checked !! If the bear didn’t kill you the horse would. Some of you guys need to loosen your bra strap. Daaaamn.

From: DMTJAGER
21-Sep-18
I said this in a previous post and would like the thoughts of those who live, hunt, as well as guide in grizzly country. First of all I have never been in grizzly country, and the closest I've ever come to a grizzly was at my local zoo. While hunting and back packing out west I have had three close encounters with black bears, one in particular almost every day I stayed in a Boy Scout camp in NM that if you were to count encounters with the same bear I would be approaching double digits. But per the guy who was the care taker of the BSA camp said this particular black bear had been living near the camp for years and left people alone and they never had any issues with him. I ran into two while hiking off the Blue Ridge Parkway, and one while deer hunting in Cumberland WI. Once while renting a cabin in a remote area of TN my wife said "come look there are some black lab puppies on the deck" I immediately thought most likely not. Turned out to be two very small black bear cubs that were most likely attracted by the smell of the charcoal grill we just cooked dinner on. Momma bear was but a few yards away in the yard. Unfortunately this was prior to cell phones so by the time I got my camera out they all had vanished. Thankfully at every bear encounter every time either the bear saw me and ran away or I saw him and left before it became aware of my presence. My point being I even though I knew (except for the time in WI) I was going to be in black bear country but I never gave any thought to what if I ran into one let alone if I were attacked. Not even after having had two bears well under 100 yards when we spotted each other did I afterward give any thought to "what if?" I was so excited having seen one I actually looked upon encounter as a good thing never having considered a worse case outcome. At no point did I ever feel anything approaching fear as I was under this misguided belief born of ignorance that black bears pose no real threat. Little did I know that black bears have killed and mauled more people than grizzlies, granted that is undoubtedly because there are so many, many more black bears than grizzlies that they will by shear weight of numbers be involved in more attacks. My point being I never planed for a bear encounter and basically I had planned to fail or to insure my survival. My fallowing questions could all be pointless if it is not legal for a guide or member of the guide group to posses a rifle unless they have a tag. But that's a law that could be changed, but I might be unrealistic as to it's chances. My question to those who guide in grizzly country is it time to consider (as I posted in my previous post) training guides for an armed response to grizzly encounters. By training I mean becoming proficient with a rifle and if a rifle isn't legally an option a handgun in shot placement that will stop a charging grizzly. This is a skill mandated for African PH's in at least some African countries for obvious reasons, granted western America has not thousands of heads of dangerous game like the African water buffalo AKA black death but grizzlies aren't going away in anyone reading this life times and their numbers are only going to increase. Second would it be practical to have an additional member to the guide group who goes with when ever hunting or especially once and animal is down who's sole purpose is armed anti-grizzly security. That way this member's attention wouldn't be compromised by performing other duties that would be done by the guide or other staff. Or would such actions be unwarranted based on the statistical rarity of a grizzly attack even occurring? People who hunt and especially guide in grizzly country always ask how can theses types of tragedies could have been avoided and may be its time for the members of the guiding community who operate in grizzly country come together and come up with a plan that will if at all possible reduce the risk of human fatalities, and place the well being of the grizzlies where it belongs a distant second. After having been on 6 elk hunts out west I don't see how one can hunt and at the same time and prevent chance encounters with a grizzly. I can see how one could be trained on what to do once an encounter occurs and even though training is no guarantee nothing bad will happen, no training is essentially a guarantee that something bad will more likely than not happen. Other than training for an armed response to a bear attack, I don't see many other realistic options for the outfitting industry and their guides for dealing with grizzly encounters that result in attacks. We aren't going to stop hunting in grizzly countrt and the grizzlies aren't going away or have any real fear of man likely in our life times so what exactly are our options besides doing nothing which really isn't an option.

If anyone has a better idea or ideas I'm sure those most affected by this would love to hear them.

From: Scar Finga
21-Sep-18

Scar Finga's Link
An interesting view from a guy that survived a double griz attack. This guy is amazing! Crazy stuff and very scary! Oh, and he had a gun and bear spray and still attacked twice in 10 minutes.

From: mn_archer
21-Sep-18
Out of respect for the OP. who is one of the most accomplished and well respected Bowsiters ever I'm done with this post.

Some of you have embarrassed yourselves and are too blind to see it

michael

From: kyrob
21-Sep-18
I was just asking if it could be done. I am not a horse person and don't know what they will or won't do when asked by the rider. Never seen a grizzly but would like to if it wasn't to close.

From: jdee
21-Sep-18
Kyrob a horse will spook and run even if you happen to just come across a bear on the trail . They know what’s safe and what’s not !! I was on horseback once and heard a couple mt lions fighting and tried to get my horse closer to them to get a look.....have you ever been to a rodeo and seen a guy trying to ride a saddle bronc ?

From: Mule Power
21-Sep-18
Mn archer I’m with you. Over and out.

21-Sep-18
I was going to leave this thread alone too, but I have to respond to michael's continued trash talk.

First off, I could claim the exact same thing about you.

Secondly, if you think your attempts and public shaming mean more than zip, zilch, or nada to me and probably anyone else they're aimed at, it's pretty laughable and you need to take a good hard look at what you think your opinion on a message board is worth.

Discuss the facts and your opinion thereof. Making claims about the posters with whom you disagree is ridiculous.

I could just as easily call you a candy-assed flatlander. Your attempt at shaming along with the sarcasm squad's, is childish. And the funny thing is, you meet these folks face to face, and they're anything but trash-talkers and sarcastic. And thus, is the hypocrisy of those who accuse others of being keyboard commandos - a hypocritical claim to begin with.

From: BIG BEAR
21-Sep-18

From: Scar Finga
21-Sep-18
I know I don't post on here much, but I am on here daily. I read a lot of posts if not most/ all. I don't post much because I don't feel the need to stroke my ego with macho BS, and give an opinion that doesn't really matter to many. But after reading this entire post, and the facts of the incident, I must say that I have lost a lot of respect for a lot you guys that I used to think were good stand up guys! I believe that to disrespect the guide, and to bash and trash talk the survivor is weak and petty! I have my own opinion and beliefs of what I THINK I know what I would have done... but that is mute point, because I wasn't there! And you weren't either! Show some class, if you can. Let it go! If you want to start a new post and discuss things than do it.

Jake,

Sorry for the way this went sideways brother! Prayers and peace for all involved, very tragic! God Bless!

Scar.

From: mitchelk
21-Sep-18
http://www.foxnews.com/science/2014/11/24/gps-study-tracks-grizzlies-as-follow-hunters.amp.html

From: Norseman
21-Sep-18
Crossbow threads and political talk on the community forum have nothing on this thread.

Hard heads and swollen necks. The rut is on, I guess.

21-Sep-18
No one knows the exact details. And, the hunter isn't disclosing them in detail for the public's viewing. Other then to say the guide saved his life. The only thing I think that is becoming obvious is the guide chose to fight for his hunters' life and, the hunter choose to let the guide die in order to save his life. That really isn't debatable. The hunter himself has said that. I'm not judging him either.

God Bless the young family this man leaves behind

From: GF
21-Sep-18
I saw the story that Mitch linked to back when it came out....

And if THAT doesn’t make you want to be fully prepared for a Bear Encounter of the Grizzly Kind, well...

You can’t argue with willful ignorance.

From: Matt
22-Sep-18
"Making claims about the posters with whom you disagree is ridiculous."

That's a funny comment considering the nature of this thread.

22-Sep-18
Matt, I'll end this discussion the way I started it: I expect more out of my hunting partners. And they can expect more out of me.

I don't expect you to understand.

Anything more can be discussed in PMs if anyone wants to. At this point, it's just getting nasty, so there's no point in public mud slinging.

From: Bou'bound
23-Sep-18
For those above that have said they would basically be willing to enter a near hopeless situation and commit suicide in order to be seen as loyal to a hunting partner would you want your hunting partner to do the same for you

23-Sep-18
We don't know it was hopeless. Based on what the hunter said, We only know the man left the other man on his feet, in hand to hand combat fighting the bear. That sounds far from hopeless when the men possessed weapons. Was the hunter likely to end up with wounds a little more severe then the cat scratches he had? Yep. Which is why he run leaving the other man to die.

It's been pointed out that stand and fight crowd assume's to much. Not true based on the words of the survivor. Instead, it appears to me like the run away crowd is assuming far more then the crowd that says they'd stood with their partner. Based purely on what the hunter said he saw and, did in reaction to it.

Once again, I'm not trashing him. I feel remorse for him. The only assumption I will make is the other mans family gets to mourn the loss of a son, husband, and father because he was left alone to die in his place. Because, If we truly listen to what the victim says and take it for what it is, in pure terms, he traded the life of his partner for the safety of his own. He's the only one that knows this for sure. And, as of now, his recount doesn't support any other option when calling it what it is. We can assume all sorts of things. Or, we can listen to what he is saying and take it for the truth.

From: Bou'bound
23-Sep-18
He did not possess a weapon That he could use apparently. That’s like saying if a scalpel is lying on the floor a plumber could save a man having a heart attack by doing surgery since the tool Existed

It would have been hand to hand combat with an enraged bear or two. Much greater chance two families are mourning than one. It would have been a futile gesture at best. Would have made for good drama but futile in high probability.

At times smart people know discretion is the better part of valor.

Even people who are trained and paid to save lives don’t blindly run into every burning building just so they can say they at least I tried.

From: Dirk Diggler
23-Sep-18
I suspect this will gnaw on the hunter worse than dying.

From: Dooner
23-Sep-18
Justin, it seems like you and several others are loosing sight of how the guide failed to prevent this tragedy.

He didn’t bring an experienced buddy to stand guard, apparently didn’t train his client to use the gun, even allowing it to be in a pack, unloaded. Familiarity breeds complacency. He had the responsibility to direct preparedness for defense against a grizzly Attack, and failed. Sad, but true.

From: Bou'bound
23-Sep-18
Dirk

Wanna bet?

From: Ambush
23-Sep-18
Not sure why some are certain that the guide willingly and purposely "gave his life" for the hunter. He may have been going for the gun and the bear noticed him and attacked, leaving the hunter. Now he is being mauled and yelling at the hunter to get the gun. The hunter can't operate the gun, so it's no better than a rock to him, at which point he tries to get it to the guide, who may well be yelling for it. People just want to have this romanticized picture in their head a of a true hero going hand to hand with a grizzly to save another. And maybe that is what happened, even if in a round about way and maybe not intentionally.

In this case, I will give the benefit of the doubt to the grieving family as it will be the only comfort they may have in his death.

There will be a thorough forensic investigation where the facts, as best we'll ever know them, will be revealed. Until then, we can only be respectful of the situation and hopefully learn from it too.

And I wouldn't put too much stock into what the hunter has to say for now. His story will likely change from initial moments of telling into his "hindsight" version. Not saying he will lie, but he will want to temper people's opinion of his actions. Just more human nature. But authorities have methods of ferreting out the truth.

Most tragedies start out as routine days. Enjoy and be thankful for every "ordinary" day you that have.

From: Flincher
23-Sep-18
My condolences to the guide's family. What a tragedy. After reading the majority of the posts they reminded me of a situation I was in about 15 years ago. As a commercial banker I was performing a repossession of a farmer's equipment. This was scheduled and I knew he was a hothead so I took along a junior lender who recently graduated from college with a reputation as a super tough football star. You know the type, 270 pounds 6 foot 4 inches tall, a big boy. My bodyguard. After a couple of hours of loading equipment the farmer finally blew his top and came at me swearing and swinging a hammer. Just before he got to me he started laughing his head off. In between laughing he pointed at this pickup going out his driveway at high speed, and saying there goes your protection. I started laughing as well and said, "It's my ride too!" Long story short, the farmer ended up helping me load up the rest of his equipment and gave me a ride back to the bank. Later, when I confronted the junior lender he claimed he was going to get help because of the situation. The problem was he never called anyone and just snuck back into his office. That was an act of a true coward.

23-Sep-18
No Dooner, I'm not losing sight of anything. And, happen to agree with Mule Power (Joe) on the topic of where the guide may have fell short. I am not saying he did. I'm just saying that appears to be an issue. However, what you, Grant, and most of the run crowd keep missing is the words of the only person who lived through the tragedy. Instead, you are forming conjecture based on your own assumptions. I haven't assumed anything except the guides family is indeed grieving.

Grant, rationalizing anyone's action in this type situation with "Smarts" is the biggest assumption you've made at this point. It has no bearings on the way one would react. The man did have a weapon too. He just broke an elk down, he had to have a knife. Surely he could have made that work.

I'll say it for the third time. The survivors words are clear in what he has said. They tell everyone what happened. He run to save himself while knowing he left the guide to defend them both. Yes, he tried to throw the guide the weapon so he could use it. When that failed, he decided to leave. He hasn't said if the guide told him to run. But, I'm pretty sure he'd clarified that if it were the case. My second assumption.

As far as the results, you might be exactly right in your assumptions of the outcome. But, you are only assuming that. But, the second bear hadn't attacked at that point. And, had the hunter stayed and fought, just maybe the guy who could use it might have got a hold of it and, turned the tables in favor of the two humans and their families. My third assumption. We will never know. And, like I said three times now I'm not judging the hunter. Only repeating his words, and matching every assumption you've made.

From: deerslayer
23-Sep-18
From what I've heard of Grant's antics in scaring bears off of baits before he gets down early out of his stand, before it gets too dark, I'm pretty sure I know why he is interested in justifying the hunters actions. Sure glad I wasn't his guide when he gut shot a griz a few years back. Guess we all can "assume" how that would have turned out for the guide had things gone south.

From: JW
23-Sep-18
This is a truly tragic story. My condolences go out to the guides family and friends. You definitely have to be prepared when you go into grizzly country and this sounds like a calamity of errors to end in this manner.

However, I don’t know how any man in good conscience could leave anyone in that situation alone to fend for themselves instead of offering any help? Our fine fighting men and women of our armed services come to mind, they don’t turn and run. They stand and fight. They’re not chicken$hit$.

From: Beendare
23-Sep-18
Lots of lessons in this case; Vigilance and being prepared being the primaries.

The hunter lookout wasn't constantly scanning....giving the guide a couple seconds to react. More careful instruction by the guide could have made a difference.

The guide should have given better instruction to the hunter.....including how to operate the Glock. Heck they went back to camp......hand the Nimrod a shotgun with 00 buck, a lever action rifle.....or have one of those things Ike was talking up last year. I know I can't do my job without the proper tools.

No round in the chamber......the guides counting on being able to rack the slide cost him his life. I can see loading a revolver on a empty cylinder....Glocks need cartridges to operate.

The hunter should have taken more personal responsibility when hinting Grizz country. You CAN be successful if you train with your chosen weapons to deploy them quickly and accurately.

My bet; only 10% of Bowsiters actually train with their chosen backup [I hope I'm wrong] You carry it on your belt but have you ever deployed a can of bear spray?

.....or practice quick draw a shoot with your pistol running a few boxes of ammo through it?

From: CPAhunter
23-Sep-18

CPAhunter's Link
There was an update on gofundme from his brother in law. The gun was empty.

https://www.gofundme.com/mark-uptain?viewupdates=1&rcid=r01-153775836212-7f2384f00e954b77&utm_source=internal&utm_medium=email&utm_content=cta_button&utm_campaign=upd_n

From: CO_Bowhunter
23-Sep-18
Thanks CPAHunter. The tribute says it all. 1. Empathy for the family. 2. Celebration of a life well lived. 3. Hunting in grizzly country has its risks. 4. Be prepared and proactive while enjoying every second in wild country.

From: LUNG$HOT
24-Sep-18
“There have been questions of why wasn’t there a gun, there was, the clip was dropped out of the gun before it was tossed in Marks direction and a round had never been chambered.”

Wow! All I can say. Thanks for the link CPA.

From: Rut Nut
24-Sep-18
“Greater Love has no one than this, than one lay down his life for his friends” John 15:13

From: stringgunner
24-Sep-18
X2 Rut Nut

From: Rut Nut
24-Sep-18
I got that from CPA's link. That quote was from Mr. Uptain's brother-in-law in his tribute to him.

From: LINK
24-Sep-18
So the hunter dropped the clip out then tossed the gun to his guide and ran... I think the real lesson here is choose your hunting partners wisely, especially in wild country. I can count on one hand the guys I would hunt grizzly country with, that I know personally. From the comments on here Idyll, WV, Deerslayer and I’m sure a few others would make the short list as well. Mr Uptain sounds like a stand up fellow and I pray God gives his wife and children a peace that only he can give.

From: Beendare
25-Sep-18
The hunter dumped the magazine.....oh man.....a comedy of errors.

.................in the guide lottery of clients........this poor guide got a loser.

From: Zbone
26-Sep-18
Going to leave this thread alone after this and let Mr. Uptain rest in peace, but a guy over on the LeatherWall brought up a good question - "Where was the bow in all this mayhem?" After all the articles, discussions, and debates, never heard where was the bow in all this…

From: Mule Power
27-Sep-18
Probably back at camp since he killed the elk the day before.

From: LINK
27-Sep-18
All the stories say they were unable to locate the elk the evening he shot it. How many here go out to locate an arrowed animal without their bow? I sure don’t.

From: mn_archer
27-Sep-18
could've easily been with the horses. After they found the elk I'm guessing they needed to return to the horses to retrieve their meat processing equipment and likely wouldve left the bow at that time- at least that is how I wouldve handled it

From: Mule Power
28-Sep-18
If I was in grizzlie country standing next to a day old dead elk there’s no question I’d have had my grouse arrow nocked and ready to go.

From: LINK
28-Sep-18

As fast as Chubon was I bet he could have retrieved his bow by the time Uptain made it 50 yards after fighting off the bear once...

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