Vehicular Struggles
General Topic
Contributors to this thread:
McCree 10-Oct-18
smarba 10-Oct-18
Twinetickler 10-Oct-18
WV Mountaineer 10-Oct-18
Boreal 10-Oct-18
12yards 10-Oct-18
Bowfreak 10-Oct-18
McCree 10-Oct-18
EmbryOklahoma 10-Oct-18
Jethro 10-Oct-18
c3 10-Oct-18
sitO 10-Oct-18
Glunt@work 10-Oct-18
Kevin Paul 10-Oct-18
Kevin Paul 10-Oct-18
The Famous Grouse 10-Oct-18
12yards 10-Oct-18
fubar racin 10-Oct-18
JW 10-Oct-18
smarba 10-Oct-18
PushCoArcher 10-Oct-18
Treeline 10-Oct-18
buckhammer 10-Oct-18
WapitiBob 10-Oct-18
Deertick 10-Oct-18
Franzen 10-Oct-18
Yellowjacket 10-Oct-18
Glunker 10-Oct-18
APauls 10-Oct-18
COHOYTHUNTER 10-Oct-18
Dale06 10-Oct-18
Dino 10-Oct-18
JTV 10-Oct-18
WV Mountaineer 10-Oct-18
Surfbow 10-Oct-18
Glunt@work 11-Oct-18
carcus 11-Oct-18
Charlie Rehor 11-Oct-18
Ogoki 11-Oct-18
Franzen 11-Oct-18
Mr.C 11-Oct-18
cnelk 11-Oct-18
Boatman71 11-Oct-18
LINK 11-Oct-18
LINK 11-Oct-18
Dale06 11-Oct-18
WV Mountaineer 11-Oct-18
Scoot 11-Oct-18
Franzen 11-Oct-18
LBshooter 11-Oct-18
LINK 11-Oct-18
Beendare 11-Oct-18
Franzen 11-Oct-18
LBshooter 11-Oct-18
WV Mountaineer 11-Oct-18
Franzen 11-Oct-18
midwest 11-Oct-18
Junior 11-Oct-18
Dale06 11-Oct-18
Treestalker 11-Oct-18
Buffalo1 11-Oct-18
ground hunter 11-Oct-18
grossklw 12-Oct-18
Pigsticker 12-Oct-18
Trial153 12-Oct-18
Franzen 12-Oct-18
tobywon 12-Oct-18
Southern draw 12-Oct-18
The Famous Grouse 12-Oct-18
McCree 14-Oct-18
midwest 14-Oct-18
Drop Tine 14-Oct-18
Thornton 14-Oct-18
12yards 15-Oct-18
TD 15-Oct-18
Treestalker 15-Oct-18
Caddisflinger 16-Oct-18
From: McCree
10-Oct-18
Long story short...I traded my truck in a year ago for a new suburban for my wife. I then took over our old suburban with plans to drive it a year or two and get a new truck, I really miss a truck! Now I'm torn! I found a 2018 Tundra I really like and the incentives on the 2018's are really good, especially for Toyota. But do I really want another vehicle payment? The suburban is a 2010 with 119,000 miles. It starting to show it's age but it runs good and is reliable. So...2010 suburban with no payment or 2018 Tundra with a hefty payment? The struggle is real!

From: smarba
10-Oct-18
First world problems LOL. New trucks with payments aren't meant to be hunting vehicles IMO. My Tacoma has 325K miles and still going strong and I never have to worry about scratches and dings in it when I'm navigating a rough narrow road like I would if it was brand new with monthly payments...

That said I'd take the Tundra over a Suburban any day (but it's NOT worth the debt of monthly payments on a new truck).

From: Twinetickler
10-Oct-18
That Suburban is just getting broke in, those GM engines will run forever. If it runs good it's going to get you from point A to point B just as good as that new shiny Tundra. The debt and payment will cause you more stress than it's worth. Use that money to go on another hunt! My vote is to keep your Suburban.

10-Oct-18
Debt is the enemy of your take home income. Yes debt can have its pay offs, incentives, etc.... But, debt on items like vehicles, motor bikes, boats, etc.... severely limits your incomes potential. Debt on assets is what’s tolerable.

Everybody has opinions, different incomes and lifestyles. But, think about the money you could put towards retirement if you didn’t have luxury items. That’s power. And it’s a choice we all have.

Live today like no one else. So, you can live later in life like no one else. Dave Ramsey says that. And it’s true.

I am trying like no other to get out of debt. It comes first. I do enjoy things but, im trying to ensure I get to do those things later in life. As stated before, life is different for everyone. You gotta analyze your income potential and live accordingly.

If it were me, I’d sell that thing and buy a small truck used with the money. Or drive it until the wheels fell off. But, unless having to, I wouldn’t make a payment.

From: Boreal
10-Oct-18
No question...keep the Suburban.

From: 12yards
10-Oct-18
I feel your pain! I have a 2011 Suburban with 135,000 and miss a truck like nothing else. But no way I'm taking on payments. I'll suffer for several more years. It works. Not perfect, but it works.

From: Bowfreak
10-Oct-18
Do what you ultimately want to do. You ain't getting out of here alive and if you can afford it and want a new truck, go for it. The fiscally smart thing to do is to keep the old truck but having Bowsite guys tell you to do the fiscally responsible thing doesn't mean a whole lot when many of us are paying $2K for bows and spending much more than that on hunts every year.

From: McCree
10-Oct-18
LOL...not what I wanted to hear but what I needed to hear. I know it's the right choice to keep old red and avoid the payment! Thanks guys for helping me not make a bone head decision.

10-Oct-18

EmbryOklahoma's embedded Photo
EmbryOklahoma's embedded Photo
Pffftttt! I still drive this 97' with 275k. Keep that suburban. :)

From: Jethro
10-Oct-18
Unless the math says you really can't afford the monthly payment....get the truck. Trade the old Suburban while you can still get something for it. I know the payment sucks, I have 70 more payments left on my truck.

From: c3
10-Oct-18
I just rebuilt my 2004 f150 instead of getting a payment. You can do a lot of hunting every year for the cost of those payments year round. I'd rather have the beater with 200K miles that I don't sweat beating up and scout/hunt more of the year. You could even buy tags for what that $500 -$750 monthly payment costs you.

Just my $0.02

Cheers, Pete

From: sitO
10-Oct-18

sitO's embedded Photo
sitO's embedded Photo
My 01' Tahoe has 347k, never a major repair and those ain't highway miles! Hell I'm gonna buy another with 150k+ when, or if, it ever goes down. I'd keep the Suburban hands down, I've got no use for "new & shiny"!

From: Glunt@work
10-Oct-18
Sell the Suburban and buy a used truck the same price.

Easy solution that gets you a truck and no payments.

From: Kevin Paul
10-Oct-18
Every time I think I want a new truck, I just do something nice to my current truck. Get it detailed, put a new stereo or speakers in or upgrade something I've been wanting. Always buys me at least 12 months. Start putting away whatever the payment will be right now so when you do buy you have a great down payment.

From: Kevin Paul
10-Oct-18
Also, if that Suburban is 4x4, turn it into the ultimate hunting rig. New bumper, winch and all the fixin's.

10-Oct-18
I'd never go back to a truck. What is it you miss? Having your gear in the back getting wet and covered with dust? And that's with a cap or a topper. Also the flimsey locks on toppers mean its never really safe to keep gear back there.

I'd keep the suburban. Also do you really want another monthly payment? I sure wouldn't.

Grouse

From: 12yards
10-Oct-18
The two things I don't like about the Burban is it doesn't have great ground clearance and where to throw the bloody carcass. I ended up buying a hitch hauler for it, but then it's a pain to reach in the back and get your stuff out. Plus you can't haul lumber and stuff very good with a Burban compared to a pickemup truck.

From: fubar racin
10-Oct-18
For a hunting rig I’ll take my suburban for almost any hunt I go on. Better fuel mileage and more sure footed than a full-size pickup.

From: JW
10-Oct-18
Keep the burban. My 02 Silverado has 187,000 and is still going strong. Keep up with the maintenance and they run for a looong time. New truck prices are crazy anyway.

From: smarba
10-Oct-18
Lift kit for the Suburban and a rubber bed liner (maybe even paint in bed liner) for area to toss in carcass. A few minor improvements and tweaks and the Suburban may be your ideal rig.

From: PushCoArcher
10-Oct-18
My second vehicle was a 94 ford Bronco. I miss that thing all the time had the same clearance as any truck or more and all the versatility of a suv. The transmission blew up and I got rid of it for a new truck with a payment. Should've just got a new tranny. Plus friends and relatives always expect you to help them move if you have a truck.

From: Treeline
10-Oct-18
Payments suck! Especially for something that goes down in value every year!

Keep the suburban! As others have said, you can make a hell of a hunting rig out of it with a few additions. Better than a pickup! Plus, you can sleep in the back much warmer than a pickup bed!

From: buckhammer
10-Oct-18
The best vehicle is one that runs and is payed for.

From: WapitiBob
10-Oct-18
I'm leaning towards an older VW diesel jetta wagon for a new hunting rig. Almost 50 mpg and an Elk will easily fit.

From: Deertick
10-Oct-18
Avoid debt.

From: Franzen
10-Oct-18
I know what you mean about having a truck. My pickup is everything from hunting vehicle, to grocery-getter, to kid-hauler, to occasionally a dump truck. There is something about just throwing stuff in the bed to me. I bought a new one this year (2018), and I kind of miss the old one (2007). But, the old one had over 220,000 on it and reliability was getting to be a real concern, along with needing to put some (read: too much) maintenance money into it. I don't like the amount of electronic garbage on the new one, but such is life. I don't run multiple vehicles, so with a family, something that is hopefully reliable has some importance.

From: Yellowjacket
10-Oct-18
I say no debt also. Option A: Suburban vs used truck Not Suburban vs new truck

From: Glunker
10-Oct-18
I went from a suburban to a truck and miss the suburban. Look in the mirror to see if it is an image thing. Is there a reason your wife needed a new suburban? Calculate the depreciation on the new suburban. In my situation i would have kept the suburban and bought a 2 year old truck.

From: APauls
10-Oct-18
Thought this was a "traded a truck for my wife" type thread, but financially people seem to differ on strategies. Some say borrow for a hunt, borrow for a truck, you only live once. I'm in the save for a hunt, save for a truck category. You'll pay for the truck either way, one way is with your money, one way is with someone else's money, but then you also need to pay them for the pleasure of using their money.

From: COHOYTHUNTER
10-Oct-18
keep the 2010 Suburban.. Go find a cheap (one that requires no payment) old Tacoma of Jeep Wrangler and use that for your huntin rig... I had a 2000 Jeep Cherokee that I loved for my huntin rig.. wish I would have kept it..

From: Dale06
10-Oct-18
NEW automobiles are a major financial mistake, regardless of the incentives. It’ll cost you several thousand to drive that new car or truck from the dealer to your house. I’d not buy that Toyota. Either get by with the suburban, or find a lower mileage vehicle that is far less expensive.

From: Dino
10-Oct-18
New trucks r awesome. Super fun to drive and I simply love new vehicles. One of the reasons I go to work every day is so that I can buy things I like. New trucks r one of them. Enjoy the ride man!!!

From: JTV
10-Oct-18
my Hunting/ fishing truck is a 2000 Sonoma 4x4 with 367K on it.... still going strong... after a new motor, new trans/transfer case, catalytic converter and Muffler.... it now passes emissions here and is good for another 200K miles ;0) ... its been paid for a long time back ... yea, I could have got a newer truck, when a valve/cylinder went bad, but I didnt like the payments and ins. on a new one, so, I put in the motor, etc and fixed the other things, it drives like brand new ...

10-Oct-18
Dale, did you not say that you just ordered a 2019 Silverado? Buyers remorse already?

From: Surfbow
10-Oct-18
A 2018 Tundra is not a whole lot different than a 2014 Tundra, forget 'incentives' and buy a used one if you're worried about payments.

From: Glunt@work
11-Oct-18

Glunt@work's embedded Photo
Glunt@work's embedded Photo
My current extra beat around rig is a 1994 Trooper. I drive it more than my Titan. You can find these all over for $2000 and under since Isuzu doesn't sell light cars and trucks here anymore, they are decent on gas and get around off road well enough. Other than the auto transmissions they hold up fairly well. I waited until I found a nice 5 speed manual with low miles.

From: carcus
11-Oct-18
I get the urge every no and then to do the same, it all goes away when I get in my 2006 bullet proofed tuned 6.0L 350, probably should keep it another 10 years!

11-Oct-18
By minimizing purchases of depreciating assets I retired at 55 rather than 65. That was 10 years ago and it sure was worth it to me. Live for the moment with an eye on the future. Good luck with YOUR decision. C

From: Ogoki
11-Oct-18
Just my thoughts , but I am 63 and never made a truck payment . Have owned 7 new Chevy 1/2 ton pick ups. My current truck is a 2012 Silverado. I start saving for my next truck as soon as I buy a new one . Have over $35,000 sitting waiting to buy next one . I buy a left over model year at the end of December ,when I am ready to buy one . Have best deals that way , I have found. I did own a used Tacoma ,which was bought back from by Toyota on the frame recall. Loved that truck . I took that truck everywhere. At that time I had two trucks. Would buy another but it's too small to take to cabin , with my 3 Labs .

From: Franzen
11-Oct-18
"NEW automobiles are a major financial mistake, regardless of the incentives."

I'm not so sure about that statement. I bought my first brand new truck in 2007, and as I said above, just bought another new one this year. I had the first for 11 years. I bet I spent less money than most who buy multiple used vehicles and have them repaired all the time. Considering purchase price alone, I was less than $3k a year.

From: Mr.C
11-Oct-18
same struggle! 2004 dodge 260K..... but 600+ dollars a month buys a hunting trip every season somewhere out of state..... a new truck would really cut into that good luck

From: cnelk
11-Oct-18
"NEW automobiles are a major financial mistake, regardless of the incentives."

So are new bows

From: Boatman71
11-Oct-18
I'm still driving around in a 1993 GMC Sierra 4X4 with 104K miles on it. No payments and love it!

From: LINK
11-Oct-18

LINK's embedded Photo
LINK's embedded Photo
Cnelk that’s why my bow is 12 years old. I drive a 97 Jeep XJ and my wife drives a new to us 99 suburban with 70k miles we bought for a fraction of what a 10 year old suburban with 150k costs. I hate car payments. Haven’t had one in ten years. I put a receiver rack on my XJ and I’ve put deer and the back hatch on a tarp. My XJ will go places in 2X that a 4x4 pickup won’t go(sandy where I hunt), most of the time not slipping a tire.

From: LINK
11-Oct-18
Franzen I bought my wife an 07 Pontiac torrent with a salvage title in 09 with 12k miles for 10k. She’s still driving it to save gas money on our suburban when the family is not all together. We finally put a transfer case (170,000 mi) in a few months ago for $1400. By the time we retire that thing it will cost us less than $1000 a year. Before that and kids I paid 10k for a Chevy truck. Drove it for 8 years (03-11) with no repairs and sold it for $5500. That one cost a little more than $500 a year. ;)

From: Dale06
11-Oct-18
WVMountaineer,

You are exactly correct. I did order a loaded 2019 Silverado. No buyers remorse, at all. Is it a good financial move, technically no. But I have zero debt and have not had a penny of debt in many years and have not borrowed money in 20 plus years. I paid cash for it. The OP seems to be in quite a different financial position. So I would say the same to him. Don’t but the new truck, run the suburban as long as it’s reliable, then buy a good “used” vehicle. Thanks

11-Oct-18
That’s awesome Dale. Congrats on being in such a financial position. That’s what I’m working for. One day hopefully.

From: Scoot
11-Oct-18
Yep, smarba and WV nailed it in their first two posts. I'm running an '06 Tundera with 235K miles on it. Seriously thought about an upgrade this fall, but I'm going to roll with what I have for another year. I get nervous about it konking out on me, but not having a payment is sure nice... Until it gives me a specific reason to dump it, I'll keep it and it's $0/month payment.

From: Franzen
11-Oct-18
Those are good numbers Link, but unfortunately you have to add the cost of owning that 'Burb too. Sounds like you've had good luck with vehicles not needing repair though. Even if nothing else goes wrong, our country roads here will wear out front end parts; plus I don't baby my vehicles.

Also a different story regarding what you could buy a similar used truck for these days vs. that $10k "pre-kid". Heck, when I was younger I bought a 5-speed Dakota for $7k, and drove it alone for 4.5 years (and kept it around driving it some for another 2). My mom sold it to a neighbor kid for $1000 bucks a couple years later. I had given her permission to sell the thing, but didn't think she would let it get away THAT cheap... lesson learned.

People that run a high-mileage late model almost always have a sometimes sparsely-used newer vehicle too, but of course there are some exceptions.

From: LBshooter
11-Oct-18
I hate car payments, especially if your going out to buy a pickup truck for 50 plus thousand dollars. Will never do that, I'll buy used and run it to the ground and then buy a another. Just think if the interest payments on a 60 month deal, would go a long way in buying you a used vehicle. My current truck is a 2001 Ford Explorer v8 I bought ten years ago with 60k on it, I paid 2,700 bucks, and it runs like a top. Remember if someone is selling a used vehicle they are willing to take less because the dealer ain't giving much.

From: LINK
11-Oct-18
No doubt Franzen. That same 10k truck would probably cost nearly 20k now. I can’t fathom spending 50k for a new diesel.

From: Beendare
11-Oct-18
How anyone in this day and age buys a vehicle without being a business owner amazes me.

Full bore payment with after tax money no write-off....vs write it off [100% in some cases] right off the top before taxes....its a no brainer to own a business of some sort.

Check with your accountant- but I think the rules to be legit with the IRS [and I'm not suggesting otherwise] is a business can lose money for the first 5 years without questioning.

Example; I use my truck for business [contractor] and write off a very large % as legit business expense. Buying my tundra in 2012, 100% of the purchase is a write off lowering my taxable income- a beautiful thing. Now if only Kuiu had a line of legit work clothing....I would be set! /grin

IMO, You guys not doing this would be wise to look into starting a business.

From: Franzen
11-Oct-18
People probably don't do that because it is fraudulent to write off any percentage of a vehicle that is not used specifically for the business. If you are going to use a vehicle primarily for your business, it may be worth it, but otherwise the hassle of setting up a business and attempting to write off a portion of a vehicle is not worth it.

From: LBshooter
11-Oct-18
I hate car payments, especially if your going out to buy a pickup truck for 50 plus thousand dollars. Will never do that, I'll buy used and run it to the ground and then buy a another. Just think if the interest payments on a 60 month deal, would go a long way in buying you a used vehicle. My current truck is a 2001 Ford Explorer v8 I bought ten years ago with 60k on it, I paid 2,700 bucks, and it runs like a top. Remember if someone is selling a used vehicle they are willing to take less because the dealer ain't giving much.

11-Oct-18
I use the mileage credits. And, at 50 some cents a mile, it is very much worth the hassle to keep a log book and mileage by use. When you are driving 50,000 plus miles a year, it don’t take long to pay the thing off as long as it doesn’t break down all the time.

From: Franzen
11-Oct-18
Yes, that is a lot of miles being driven for business WV, and definitely worthwhile. Most people just starting up a business to help them "pay" for a vehicle aren't going to have that much legitimate use.

From: midwest
11-Oct-18
Why would anyone save up to pay cash for a vehicle when interest rates are so low? Doesn't make very good financial sense.

From: Junior
11-Oct-18
Buy a trailer

From: Dale06
11-Oct-18
Paying cash when interest rates are so low? Good question. Your logics makes sense. But some people just want to avoid debt. And one could make the case to borrow a lot of money at low interest rates and invest it in the stock market or real estate, or ...

From: Treestalker
11-Oct-18
05 ford excursion v10 here 416k on the ticker now 2x4 with a bit of a lift best truck I ever had love it for hunting/fishing/camping

From: Buffalo1
11-Oct-18
WWDRD- What would Dave Ramsey Do?

11-Oct-18
I have always had nice vehicles. I drove them hard, but kept them up nice, both inside and out, in showroom style,,,,,,, had a 91 96 Suburbans loved them, and they all went to 300,000

Driving Toyota now,,,,,,,,,, I never spent more than 20,000 on a truck and I usually buy them with 60 to 80 thousand miles on them, when I do buy one

I always had a run around car, to save on the truck wear,,,, presently a 96 Corolla that came with a set of snow tires, and rims, 52000 on it, for 2800..... 38 miles to the gal

I would love to have a Silverado, just would rather spend the money on hunts that I need a guide for or trips with the wife in travel........ wish I could have both, but that is life

From: grossklw
12-Oct-18
Only you can decide that. I bought a brand new truck 2 years ago, put it on a 3 year loan and had an interest rate of 0.6% (I have great credit and both me/my wife have good jobs), I fully plan on driving it into the ground and don't feel I was set back financially because I took out a loan, the amount of interest I've payed is laughable over the course of 3 years. I can certainly get in line with an argument I was set back some financially because I bought new, but it was a decision I can live with. I've had about the worst luck with vehicles breaking down and do not regret buying brand new. Completely understand some people just want to avoid debt, I'm just not in that group.

Dave Ramsey is great for some (especially those who struggle with budgeting and debt) but I disagree with about 95% of his opinions if you have a decent understanding of finances. But to each their own.

From: Pigsticker
12-Oct-18
I am better at making money than being a mechanic! I have to keep a relatively new truck when I take off driving 1500 + miles with the last 60 being on a rough rocky road a newer vehicle provides me with a certain piece of mind that makes it worth it. If I were staying closer to home and civilization then a truck with more years and mileage would be more acceptable.

From: Trial153
12-Oct-18
Dave is a good salesman, buts that about it.

From: Franzen
12-Oct-18
Spot on above. I will say that interest rates are not what they were in recent years, at least when I was looking. The 2 new trucks I bought I paid for near half up front and put the rest on payments (the 1st I paid off early and will likely also on the 2nd). Payments are pretty low and I won't be paying all that much interest. I too do not like payments, but having one 3 out of 10 years isn't bad, and I like having liquid assets as needed instead of paying cash all the way.

From: tobywon
12-Oct-18
I seem to get to a certain point with vehicles where things start breaking or wearing out to where repair and costs occur every few months and it gets tiring. Part of it probably has to do with being in the northeast and the crap they spray on the roads for ice in the winter months. My time is more important and as Pigsticker says, there is piece of mind with a newer vehicle. I don't buy new anymore, I typically buy used or certified pre-owned from dealership.

12-Oct-18
I had a 97 suburban that went 350 thousand and wish I had replaced the engine. I now have a 2005 with 110 thousand and it fits my style of hunting just fine, ended up removing the third seat permanently now with the kids own their own. Best part the cargo area it will hold ladder stands, big coolers and all kinds of gear that you don’t have to worry about being in the weather. I think I need a new pickup sometime but then I think the 5 or 6 hundred a month could be saved for a nice big game hunt for something... Good luck with your decision.

12-Oct-18
I'd never go back to a truck. What is it you miss? Having your gear in the back getting wet and covered with dust? And that's with a cap or a topper. Also the flimsey locks on toppers mean its never really safe to keep gear back there.

I'd keep the suburban. Also do you really want another monthly payment? I sure wouldn't.

Grouse

From: McCree
14-Oct-18

McCree's embedded Photo
McCree's embedded Photo
Had to share...the suburban worked out ok this weekend!

From: midwest
14-Oct-18
Nice!

From: Drop Tine
14-Oct-18
When I want a newer truck I tell the dealer what I'm looking for and to call me when a lease return comes in that matches what I want. Most have less than 20,000 miles and because they are leased they're rarely driven off road or used hard.

The trouble is I buy Tacomas and those little beasts run forever. So I treat myself to a new to me one every 10-12 years wether I need to or not. No need to buy new. Let someone else take the hit and get what makes you happy. Tomorrow is not a guarantee.

I cringe when I see game hauled on them hitch haulers. All that bloody meat getting full of road grime and dirt. The air behind a SUV is like a cyclone. The backs are always dirtier than the sides and fronts because of that wind effect.

From: Thornton
14-Oct-18
119,000 miles on a vehicle that is paid off is a great deal. There are guys on here driving Tahoes and Suburbans with 300,000 miles on them

From: 12yards
15-Oct-18
Dang McCree, looks like you ran the whole works through the car wash, buck and all! Nice buck BTW!

From: TD
15-Oct-18
Bruce..... you don't work in your KUIU? I thought everybody did.......

I don't own much I can't apply to my work and business in some form or another. But then everything I own is available for rent..... including my virtue for the right price..... =D

From: Treestalker
15-Oct-18
So like I said I have a 05 excursion with a ton! Of miles I would not trade it for a truck any day of the week it is so nice to pile all your gear in the back of it and not worry about it getting wet or stolen. Plus I can throw the rear seat in and haul 8 guys around I love it

16-Oct-18
I've got a Burban with 255k on it...it has nickel and dimed me half to death....ditch the burb and buy a used tundra. 2007 -2018 are the same drivetrain and 10x more reliable than the burb.

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