A new wrinkle......
Whitetail Deer
Will be leaving in a few days to go on a whitetail bowhunt. The camp rules include a cash penalty if a "small" buck is tagged. Here's the rub...….the camp definition of small has nothing to do with P&Y score or anything of the like...….it boils down to ONE measurement....the circumference of the antlers at the base (between the skull and the G-1) must be greater than or equal to 5 inches. This is a new rule to me....so I looked at the bucks that I have taken (some were already scored, others I measured as I looked at them)…..and with one possible exception, I got them correct. If any of you have photos that you'd be willing to share, of some nice bucks, I would appreciate you posting the photos on this thread, with the circumference measurement posted below it. Photos from a couple different angles would be a great help. So far, I am using a couple criteria, in decreasing order of importance, here they are...…. 1.) The buck's rack must carry its mass throughout. Even if it is a twelve point, if the tines are spindly, or the main beam is not thick, it will not have a 5 inch base. 2.)If the bases of the antlers are really gnarly (i.e. "bumpy") it seems to happen in the older, larger diameter antlers. Would appreciate any pictures (with circumference measurement included) that anyone would be willing to share......
This buck had 43.5” of total mass measurements. He carried his mass well throughout his rack. The H-1 measurements were both right at 5 4/8”.
Although not extraordinary, deer with 5” or better H-1 measurements are far from common, IMO. What state are you hunting in, Jake?
Here is the rack and his sheds from the previous year. The H-1 measurements on the sheds were 5 2/8ths” and 5 3/8ths”. Hope that helps some, Jake!
How much is the cash penalty? If it’s 25-50 dollars no big deal if it’s 2-3 thousand whoa man this could get interesting real quick. Are they holding your cash envelope till you leave? Get an exact duplicate measuring devise they will be using so there no suprises. I wonder if you can thump the buck in the head , go measure if big enough shoot em with broadhead if not splash water in his face and wait for the next one.
Gosh such criteria to hunt
This buck that my buddy killed had 45” of total mass measurements. If I remember correctly, I believe both H-1 measurements were around 5 5/8ths”.
A good reference is a deer's eye which is 4 inches.
A 5"+ H-1 means bases about as big as his nose.
Thats a big measurement for criteria. I think you'll know right when you see him cause that's a giant buck. As you can see in all T-roy's pics. That's a new concept to me. Would think most bucks north of high 150's should work? Just a guess though. Either way post that buck here when you get him! Good luck Jake
Keep in mind that the world record B&C typical is 4 6/8" on one side and right at 5" on the other. If his twin walks by, better pass just be safe :^)
I would agree. A 150” should usually have 5” bases.
Keep in mind, official circumference measurements for P&Y and B&C are always the SMALLEST circumferences per zone. If the outfitter's criteria is five inches or more at ANY circumference measurement between skull and G1, possibly even including the burr, that's an easier target to hit. Good luck Jake!
That really is a strange requirement. I've never heard of the such? Took the snapshot from the B&C website based on Glunt's post.
I have one who has 7.5" base one the right and 7.75 inches on the left. He carries his mass very well and has 46"s in mass. It's hard to see a buck with 5":bases ending up with over 40"s of mass. I know it happens but it is rare. Shawn
You could maybe use the white around his eye as a diameter gauge so to speak
I would think the white part would be about 5” or so?
No worries about quality if that’s the minimum. You’re Gonna be seeing some great bucks! Have fun! C
An antler Nazi hunting camp.......how encouraging. Do they tell you what to eat, wear and when to go to the can too? I hope you're not PAYING for this!!!!
Why not just go to a game farm and pick out the one you want to shoot and be done with it?
If that's the only way I had to hunt, I'd quit.
Train how to dig fast and get a portable folding shovel just in case.
5 4/8 one side, 5 3/8 on the other. Don't think there's a much harder criteria to judge in the field, especially when there's some huge bucks that don't hit 5"
according to the chart you may have to pass a world record.
wouldn't hunt there. i hate restrictions. horn porn
Good luck Jake. I’m betting you see some really big ones.
That would be really tough to judge in the heat of the moment when a buck is trotting by after a doe.
Wow, talk about replacing fun in the hunt, with stress.
What a ridiculous rule.
Thanks for the photos and corresponding measurements from those of you that posted. Obviously, this is not an extreme bowhunt. I am taking my wife to Kentucky. We may or may not see a thing. She has been hunting with me locally since we got married seven years ago. I just thought that it would cool to show her a new area, where the genetics seem to be quite a bit better than what we seem to possess locally. When I spoke with the owner/operator last year...the 5" rule was not in force. It has JUST been implemented because of the number of young deer that were being taken.
It appears to me that your camp group is trying to be "cute" and start some new kind of fad. If I'm you I show the Pav's post above and them them they are effin' idiots. It's stuff like this that drives me crazy about the hunting world.. I mean.. Cmon.. Just like the dum@$$ that says he wont shoot an 8 pointer,,, nope,, gotta be 10 or bigger. Alright dbag, how about a world record 179" 8 pointer,, you going to pass on that one because he doesn't have 10 points. Man, I've lost all faith in the human race, especially the hunting community.. Good Lord.
that better be one hell good freaking place to hunt because with that measurement you be passing up quite of few 150inch bucks.
I'd bring $500 and tell your wife to shoot the first buck she would be happy with regardless or circumference. (que smartass comment about her marrying you regardless of circumference)
Really though, I get the idea of restraint but thats a goofy one to try to judge
Have fun Jake. I don't have a tape or score sheets in my office, but if I remember I'll try to post some pictures tonight if I get a chance.
I'd just use the eye as a rule. Measure some of your deer mounts' eyes. Include the lid or whatever handy reference you have.
And if a monster trots by, swallow the $500 and kill the dang thing :)
I kinda wonder whether the outfitter won't use a little discretion. But of course, they can't tell you they will do that before hand, because then the rule doesn't have any force.
I know you're not asking for opinions, but since everyone has one, and everyone above has posted theirs, I will too :) Personally, I like the rule. I think it's a good idea. It forces people to slow down and really evaluate a deer. If I were the outfitter, I'd make it a rule that it has to be 5" base, or 4 1/2 year old deer (or whatever age he wants killed). If there's a fight over age, I'd hold the $500 until the cementum annuli results were back.
Bake
i hate hunting a place with antler restrictions - i believe it is better to limit hunter exposure than the restrict the size of the deer. Antler restrictions are just there to limit the amount of deer harvested - but still keep outfitters camps full of paying customers... essentially padding the outfitters pockets without killing to many deer.
Just take less hunters - restrict pressure - and the hunts will be much better! and every client can kill a deer.....
I’ve shot about 4 bucks between 147-152” that did not make 5”
I don't get the "stress" in this at all. Just add $500 to the cost of the hunt and shoot whatever makes you happy. No stress...As a bonus, if you shoot a knarly old buck, you save $500. I "get" why the outfitter put the restriction on. Different concept, but not a deal breaker for me at all. Have fun Jake. Good luck.
I'd never hunt a place with that rule. IMO too many guys are wrapped up in "score". I've taken some fairly big bucks over the years and never measured any of them. Back in the day there was no such thing as antler score, or nobody really cared. You just got a "big 6", "big 8", etc. And that was the end of it. I read someplace where a guy said, "Hunting was a lot more fun before I knew what a G2 was."
$500 bucks ain't chicken feed. Whitetail deer are very common critters.
I was in a camp years ago with a 140" minimum, there was a guy there that was quite inexperienced and concerned about getting the fine. He filmed one one day that he thought might be close, It was easy upper 160s. I shot a 138" but they never assessed the fine. I would think that if good judgement was used and you were short on the measurement it would be no big deal, if you shot a pencil thin 10 point 2 year old it would cost $500. Just a way to make guys think about what they shoot beforehand.
I find it comical how many of you care about what other people choose to do. It isn’t as if the OP is saying that all of a sudden, a place he has been hunting has made a new rule. This is a place that he is deciding to go to hunt and that is the rule they have in place.
The lease I am part of has a TON of rules. Too many for most people. But I pay my dues and sign my name to the rules and I’m ok with abiding by them. I don’t expect others to fall in line with my leases rules on their lease, but I don’t feel like others should criticize our decisions either. Everyone has different goals and expectations when they hunt.
Live and let live.
Everyone's own choice to book with an outfit with those type of rules.
If I chose to hunt under this criteria, I'd stick $500 cash in my tag wallet and consider it gone. If I shot a deer that met the criteria, I have a bonus to put toward a mount. If not, I just shot a buck that I'm very happy to have taken.
Relax and enjoy the time together. You'll forget about the money long before you forget about the experience.
I personally see the sense in it. One thing about buck deer is, they put on mass with age. Whether it be a 160 inch deer ir a 100 inch buck. Once they reach 4.5 and higher, the mass starts showing up. So, it isn’t a fad, a joke, a fun killer. The operator wants to grow older deer. That’s the only criteria that seems to ensure that. AR’s based on points and spread fail in comparison to predict a deers age.
Good points WV. Also a few might walk due to confusion, but that also lets them get older.
I’m In a tree, all is good! It’s different when you read threads like this while hunting.
Chill out guys and Enjoy yourself, it’s later than you think! Have fun Jake!!
Jake, Here is my 12. 5-2/8 bases
Jake enjoy your hunt with Nancy! It’s always exciting to visit and hunt new areas
Jake, I hope y'all are successful and get to take your "fine" home and spend it on something else.
This one is “short” at 4 5/8 bases, but I’d pay the fine to kill this one every time ...(over 150” as a 4x4)
Jibber - that was the best play in the Super Bowl's history... Well, the toss a couple years later was really good too, unless you were from Georgia... ;)
I'd not be able to pull off a rule like the 5" thing. In a pic, maybe... In a tree... I dont think I could pull that off. Just dont have experience enough with deer that size. Maybe that's the thing. If it's not obviously big enough, IE, doesnt make you go: "Wholly cow!", it's not big enough??
I got some that will drive you nuts. They’ll cost you $500, but I think they’re all shooters. . . .
Bases on this buck were 4 7/8. Grossed 140
Same buck as above on the hoof
Right base is 5 exactly. Left is 4 2/8. Grossed 139
4 3/8 and 4 6/8 bases. Grossed 148
Little closer pic of the buck above. He was aged at 6 1/2 by cementum annuli as well
Bakes pics really put that in perspective. Great deer.
Man....5" mass is a big deer. Good luck, I hope she gets one. I wouldn't even tell her about that rule. Let her kill whatever and pay the fine. Hope you guys have fun!
This deer had 4 2/8 bases. Grossed 148
I am a measurer. I got to measure a buck that grossed out at 193+. 10 pt. Was aged at 3 1/2. It was taken in Ohio with gun. It netted 188 4/8. Now the bases are 4 4/8. With a buck like that, that outfitter can stick his fine up the poop shoot. Yes, I do have pictures. I don't know how to down load them off my phone. Medicineman wants to pm me, I will send him the picture for him to down load. davep
I never heard about this new rule. 5 inch base My best deer is 6 3/4 Good luck
I can’t really justify going guided for a whitetai. But if it was me (and it’s not) and I shot a buck that met the criteria, the outfitter would get the $500 as a tip. If I shot one that I really wanted and he didn’t meet the base criteria, then I’d consider the $500 well spent.
We hunt for fun. If something sucks the fun out of it, don’t go. Easy choice.
another view of the bases
another view of the bases
They always look good running away
They always look good running away
Yikes Jake, as with most the "over 5" circumference pile" is pretty small. It takes a thick buck to make 5" plus circumferences. This one has both sides over at 5
This one has one at 5 1/8 one at 5 1/4, but it's kind of flattened out and the "long" side goes straight back so you don't even hardly see the mass in pics.
Another view...I had more hair at that time
Another view...I had more hair at that time
This one has one side 1/8 over and one side 1/8 under.
I think another problem with the 5" criteria as far as judging it, is that it's generally a really big buck to make it over 5" and if he's got good height in relation to the rest of the rack it all fits. you wouldn't even necessarily know that it's over 5". Either way, I'm sure you'll have fun. But looking through the heads as others have stated there's a crapload of big mature whitetails that don't make a 5" minimum.
I need to move to Manitoba. Dang nice deer Adam!
I also don't agree with the statement that 150" bucks should have 5" bases. Mine are about a 50/50 split at best. If you look through this thread you'll see giant deer and very few go well past 5". Skull's is the outlier in that when you see that thing I'd have a hard time not throwing an arrow right into those bases I'd be staring at em so hard lol. What a pillar! Congrats on that deer skull such an awesome deer. I wouldn't foresee an outfitter or organization keeping that minimum in place for long. Who knows, I could be wrong.
As you can see very few bucks make 5 1/4" bases. According to the math, a buck with 5 1/4" bases has a diameter of 1.67 inches. Now that's a big buck! (assuming his bases are a pure circle) On the contrary a buck with 4 7/8" circumferences assuming a perfect circle has a diameter of 1.51 inches. That's basically only a 1/8 difference in diameter!!! And a hunter is supposed to be able to evaluate a 1/8" difference on diameter on a buck that doesn't make it to one that easily makes it? Nevermind the buck is cruising through brush etc, moving, not stopped so that you can look him all over? That's a real tough ask imo, but hey - golden rule - the man with the gold makes the rules.
Haha thanks Bake, I was thinking the same thing about Missouri! 10-12 years ago I would say it would be worth it, nowadays don't bother! Saskatchewan and Alberta are where it's at. But then again, back then Sask and Alberta were still that much better than Manitoba. Boy there were some insane glory days of course as I was really learning how to hunt. Once I learned a thing or two they crashed.
Tell Nancy I got 500$ shoot the first good buck she can!
That’s correct. A crap load don’t make 5” at 3-5 yrs old. That might be why it’s 5”. Aging can be tricky also. So after 3 yrs managing that way there would be more 5” bases. Because now the deer is 6-8 yrs old sure some might not make that mass. Then you start a management program to shoot “cull” bucks. I’m not for it or against. Just trying to rationalize why they might be trying it. Just guessing.
5" and 5 3/8" That seems a strange requirement but I get the purpose
This buck was all bases at 5 5/8 and 5 7/8. Cool to have my bro there
This buck was all bases at 5 5/8 and 5 7/8. Cool to have my bro there
I’ll agree with what others have said. Makes sense in that “typically” bucks gain mass at the bases with age. Just a very hard requirement to judge. So I will post a few up to also help with judgement. My gut in that situation would tell me shoot if he’s big. If he’s big he’ll likely meet the requirement, and if he doesn’t, he’s big, so the $500 probably won’t hurt.
This buck was real heavy. Carried well throughout and bases are at 5 1/2 and 5 5/8
This buck was real heavy. Carried well throughout and bases are at 5 1/2 and 5 5/8
Here’s a buck I knew to be 8 1/2 so he was old. Bases came in at 5 1/8 and 5 5/8
Here’s a buck I knew to be 8 1/2 so he was old. Bases came in at 5 1/8 and 5 5/8
This guy “just makes the cut”
This guy “just makes the cut”
Now here’s where it gets tricky. I killed a 200”er that barely makes the cut at 5 1/8 even and my second biggest at 170 gross fails by a good margin on his big side at 4 1/8 and his other side goes 4 7/8.
Not a great pic. This 170 class falls way short on the 5” base minimum but I’d be happy to pay the fine :)
Not a great pic. This 170 class falls way short on the 5” base minimum but I’d be happy to pay the fine :)
Is there even deer in Kentucky with 5" bases???
So the outfitter is offering a $500 discount if you cull out one of the really thick ones?
