Contributors to this thread:
I’m old. One of the facets of that is, I have been around bows and projectiles a long time. I got my first bow in 1967. I killed a deer with it in 1968. Honestly, it may or may not have been legal. Mulie doe on our own property. I don’t care. Three, miss-matched arrows, who knows what heads. (Think about this-it is longer than many of you have been alive.)
It was not until about 1976, (over 40-years ago,) that I started to get somewhat interested in serious bowhunting. Bought an American, compound. You could not adjust, anything. Set at 55# and 55% let-off and who knows what draw length. Killed a lot of animals with it. Shot whatever arrows worked best and something called Thunderheads…I think. It was blistering fast, over 150-fps.
The years went by and I got into testing and evaluating bows for various companies. I got a lot of free bows. I shot them all the same. Set at 70#, 31” draw, one sight pin set at 25. No kisser, stabilizer, peep or release. Shot all of them exactly the same. Kept pretty good records. I hunted with the ones that I shot the best. Seldom were they the most expensive bows or most advanced, technology-wise. I shot what suited me.
When I blew my right shoulder out the last time, to some extent, due to shooting 100X a day for over five years, I feel sure, I had 13 different bows in my equipment room. Over the years, I have given 10 of them to people who needed bows and had no money.
So what??? Here is what. Despite the advancements in technology and resulting cost and fancy appearance of today’s leading bows, nothing has improved. Not one person, today, shoots one iota better than they did 30-years ago, when measured across a broad spectrum. Yes, Joe may shoot better and so may Bill and Cindy and Louise. But as a group…a population of bowhunters, no. No, we are no better than the bowbenders of the plateau period of the compound. Do not compare apples and limes. Do not compare trads with compounds. Within those two groups, as a whole, neither shoots any better. It just costs them more. And ask why…why do Joe and Bill and Cindy and Louise, shoot better? Is it equipment or practice? Is it technology or desire?
I am forced, today, to shoot a crossbow. I am not rich but I have a few bucks in the bank. I would probably trade all of it if I could once again, shoot that tired, old American.
A turkey killed on the late, Tony Knight's property in MO, in 1959, with a hi-tech bow that probably shot 165-FPS. We were filming, "The Secrets Of Whitetail Deer." Yes, it was legal.
Your crazy if you think the average joe can’t shoot a bow from today better than a bow from 30 years ago. I have seen it time and time again. A guy shows up to the range with a ancient bow shoots it for months. He decides he likes shooting bows and goes out and buys a new one. Overnight he goes from a terrible shot to pretty darn good.
I think your docs must (or maybe just you) have you on some strong pain killers for that bad shoulder that makes you just start typing with out thinking.
I agree with John. There is absolutely no question that nearly everyone shoots better today than anyone did 30 years ago. And it takes very little practice for the average person to get to that shooting level, because of the quality of bows, sights and the like, unlike 30 years ago. 30 years ago, all you heard at a 3D shoots was aluminum bouncing off trees and rocks. There were broken arrows everywhere. Today, misses are far rarer on these shoots.
I shot my old Pearson Spoiler better with gloves back in the day then I do now with a release. Now I have the dreaded target panic so not doing as well but I was damn accurate with that bow.
If your compound shot 150fps back then it wasn’t “blistering fast” it was slower than the slowest traditional bow out there.. just saying.
Today’s compound Bows practicality shoot themselves. Releases, drop away rests, 85% let off,etc Way more advanced than early compounds
"Despite the advancements in technology and resulting cost and fancy appearance of today’s leading bows, nothing has improved. Not one person, today, shoots one iota better than they did 30-years ago, when measured across a broad spectrum."
You really have no idea what the hell you're writing about.
Fact ch ck th t posting. antidotal evidence, isn’t worth much.
Okay. I'm sure you are right. And once again, I'm disappointed the lack of ability to read and comprehend. Who on here, who has been shooting 20+ years, shoots better today than they did...15-years ago? Why?
I started with a bear whitetail hunter in 1977. I used bare fingers but soon moved to a tab. Today I shoot a four year old compound with a drop away, peep and three pin sight. I’m only one person but I shoot drastically better than I used to.
Started shooting home made self bows my grandfather made for me a few years after you, John - early 70’s.
Actually still have my old American compound in a corner at my folks house - killed a couple of deer with it but never liked it! Best memory of it was when my uncle dry-fired it and the string broke and whipped the hell out of his wrist!
Still vividly remember the old Bear Whitetail Hunter compounds with that crazy Lully system attached to the limbs!
I gotta say, the archery equipment of today is light years ahead of those old dogs and much easier to shoot well with! A guy can be shooting a brand new bow and hitting the bullseye at 20 yards after about an hour at the pro sho now.
I think there is a lot better knowledge readily available about how to set up and shoot any kind of bow as well. That was definitely not the case all the way up through the 90’s. You had to really dig to find any good info on how to shoot or hunt with a bow!
A lot of bad advice probably turned a lot of people away from archery - even at the pro shops.
The easy availability of good information is also light years ahead of only a few years ago.
To your latter question, yes! I shoot my longbow much better than I did 15, 20 or even 30 years ago! Finally started paying attention to details, reading, trying new things, and learning. Some excellent coaching as well that really made the big difference.
I think talking about yourself and stirring the pot are your two favorite pastimes.
I bought my first compound in 1979. It was a Bear Kodiak special. I shot 2117's with Thunderhead's. I believe I killed more deer with at bow than any other bow I owned. It might have something to due to the fact that I was young and to broke to buy another bow for years and I was shooting every legal deer that walked by. Later on my brother bought a bow shop and I was a shooting out of his shop. I went through a lot of bows. I probably shot a Q2xl and an UltraTec better than any bow I shot. I as probably shot those two more than any of the bows I own. I my now shooting the latest Hoyt bow. I'm not sure I'm shooting that much better with it than my old Kodiak and the 2117 arrows. I believe my shooting ability over the years has to do with the time I spent shooting and fine tuning my bow and less with what bow I was shooting.
A bow is a piece of machinery. The human form is the variable in the equation. Strap any bow in a shooting machine and you will never be able to shoot as well as it will. Maybe we shoot better because the bows are easier to shoot, more let off, or we just enjoy it more as we get older.
A turkey killed in 1959? A look at your gear and clothing would indicate that picture was not from 1959! Just a typo I hope.
Came here to read about your $2500 bow, I'm disappointed...And, in your pic from 1959 you appear to be approximately 50+ years old, so that would make you, what, like at least 108 years old now?
Been bowhunting 17 years, definitely shoot better than when I started. I hardly ever shoot my compound anymore. Any time I pick it up a softball is toast at 50-60 yards. It wasn't that easy back then. lol I sound like an old man and I'm only 31. Look what you're doing to me.
Like him or not, he's got a point. I don't think kill rates have changed much due to the bows. Maybe long-distance shooting, maybe the readily available knowledge base that helps you be more proficient more quickly, but if the metric is white tail and bows... It's the same hunters and some are killers and would kill with whatever you put in their hands and others are not and they'll miss/wound with whatever you put in their hand.
I know For me, if I shoot better it’s because I learned a new little detail and practiced that minor adjustment to my form. When I’m honest with my self and the novelty and hype of the latest greatest gadget/bow wears off. I’m left with what ever skill I had before I bought the latest bow. I always talk myself into believing that I shoot this bow better, but I have come to realize that it’s usually a feeling, not true accuracy. After all the dust settles I still will occasionally torque the grip, punch a release, develop a target panic. All the little things that rob accuracy. The bow may draw better, be easier to hold. Feel smoother and less vibration, better valley. Bla, Bla, bla, but my skill level goes from bow to bow. The bow does not give me more skill. With All else being equal and they are properly set up and tuned. I will beat most on a range with a 10 year old bow. And a good golfer will beat me with a set of $100 clubs from Walmart. Full disclosure. I fell for the hype and BS again this year and currently shoot a Triax. It’s very quiet and little vibration, hand shock as advertised but guess what I don’t shoot it any better than the last 3 latest greatest bows.
Back in the early eighties I shot a Jennings forked lightning. Flipper two rest , burger button, and 2219 aluminum arrows. 50 pct let off at 70lbs. I used the cow hair shooting tab and my anchor point was further back than it should have been " mid cheek". This bow and setup was the finest bow I ever shot out to thirty two yards. That being said, I don't think any of the new technology has made a difference out to thirty yards. Flatter, faster, yes, but no more accurate if the shooter knows his or her pins. The newer bows have increased the range and flattened the trajectory, allowing for accurate shots beyond 30 yds. Thirty yards in I'd challenge my groups with that old Jennings forked lightning and flipper two rest with any new technology.
Lots of interesting thoughts here. Started shooting and Killing with a bow in the 60's. First compound was a Jennings...then American Archery bows for a long time...Then a parade of PSE..Hoyt..Bear...Parker....Quest...not necessarily in that order...The discussion is interesting, but my question is...How much did those early compounds cost? I honestly don't remember.
I remember when “the” bow was a PSE Mach Flite 4. First centershot bow with factory overdraw. Thing cost $265 new and our little group thought you’d have to be crazy to spend that on a bow. That was around 1986 I believe.
My first compound was a PSE Pacer, and I killed a bear with it, before I killed a deer. Unlike you, I am not old, I am only 68, you talk like your in your 90's, just plain silly.
I still have that bow, and can not pull it back. It is a dog compared to my Hoyt Carbon Spyder, which I shoot at 52lbs. with my release and drop away and sight, I shoot well out to 60 yards, no way could I do that ACCURATELY, back than......
I do not think it is automatic, at least not for me, I still need to shoot a lot to stay good.
My first recurve was a Master Express from Mike Steliga called a Bruin, and it shot at 190, with no issues.
I am sorry you can not pull your bow back. I could not either, after heart surgery last year, and was told to buy a cross bow. well I just got my ass into a pool, and changed my diet, and became a juicer nut, and eat no beef, and I am shooting well,,,, but I am lucky, since I have no shoulder issues
stay well,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
I've only been in the game for 30 years, I was so obsessed with archery back in the early days, shot every day, and i've been a bow junkie from the start, owned so many. Bows, , sights, releases, broadheads ect, have gotten so much better in the last 10 years. I'm shooting better than ever.
Whenever I see 'Bowriter' on the thread, I prepare myself for some really off the wall reading. I am not disappointed here. 1959??? LOL!
Is it your experience or the bow. I’m guessing it’s your level of training/practice. As said above you could take a 20 year old piece of crap. And lob arrows in and as long as the bow is tuned, proper spined arrows, your form is good ETC, ETC. You should group with the same accuracy. I think many on here could put a peep, a 12” Olympic sight, and 30” stabilizer on a 200 year old Mongolian recurve and beat a lot of archers with a modern bow.
Can anybody contribute to what they remember those early Bows cost?? We have a 1986 PSE that was $265.. Anybody else remember prices?
I think my old Darton was around $280. 1985
Kill rates may not be better but (assuming they are not) one must bear in mind there is a heckuva lot more participation across the spectrum of hunters than many years ago when only the most dedicated bowhunters even hunted with a bow.
Even at that my guess is kill rates per shots taken are still higher today.
I'll spare the details, but I 'm way more accurate with my Bowtech Prodigy than I was with my Jennings Arrowstar.
Grape, $265 in 1986 is $610 in today's dollars.
To an extent I agree. I'm not a great shot with my bow. I do ok, bit I'm not going to Vegas nationals anytime soon. That said, archery is a confidence game and all things being equal a new bow makes some people shoot better. They "feel" like the bow is better so they shoot better. But at the end of the day if your form sucks, you punch the trigger, dont anchor consistently, you still shoot the same. I do know that I shoot a lot better with my Switchback XT than I ever did with my old Bear Kodiak. (Still got that Kodiak though, never getting rid of it. It got me hooked on what I love)
Bingo Scoot.
I bought a Browning Xcellerator wood riser compound in about 1984 for $150 new. Killed several snowshoe hares, squirrels, spruce grouse & ptarmigan with that bow. It was nowhere near as accurate as the Hoyt I'm shooting now, but then again I was shooting fingers, wooden arrows, flipper rest and the arrow flexed around the riser.
Couple of memorable kills were snowshoe hare "pretty far" (way before rangefinders) and I let fly. My arrow fell short, richocheted off the hard ground and killed him. And I had a witness by my side.
Another was a ptarmigan "pretty far" in the winter. I let fly and whack, the bird went down without a twitch. Went over to recover him. His head had been sideways and the blunt tipped arrow had gone thru both eyes, just one clean hole which of course took out his pea brain instantly. My dad witnessed that one.
Not sure I could pull off either of those shots with my fancy bow now LOL
30 years ago I bought a PSE Jet Flite Express. Shooting 2317 arrows and Bear Razorheads I killed a pile of animals with it and rarely missed or wounded an animal. My new bows are only slightly more accurate than that one was 30 years ago out to 30 yards IMO. Bows 30 years ago were pretty darn good. 40 years ago is a different story. Bowriter isn't too far off on this one. I don't think Thunderheads were available in 1976 though.
Scoot, by "off the wall', I was trying to be gentle. Usually a bunch of gobletigook reading actually.
LOL! NP.. Its all good (except I never considered myself as being PC, people who know me would get a chuckle out of that). I can be an insulting AH if I want to be, but I usually don't want to be, unless whatever it is insults or impacts me directly first. Bowriter...he can write his own story and people form their opinions of him without my help. I have never liked bloviation though. His stuff is rife with it.
I agree that these new compounds are ridiculous in how they shoot. Still gotta get within 20-30 yards of a buck, but the shooting/accuracy/drawing/holding is so much easier now with these new bows.
Almost anyone can shoot accurately in no time with a compound. that can't be said with recurves/longbows
I've shot a bow for 29 years and I'm WAY better now than I used to be. I remember my first bow, an old PSE that maxed out at 40lb draw weight. I remember at 20 yards that arrow had an arc, that's how slow it was. I can shoot my kids 20lb bow much better than I could that bow back in the day.
I have to add my 2 cents to this, I stared hunting in 1967 when I was 12 yo that makes it 50 years bowhunting, stated with 40lb red wing recurve I can still shoot my 60lb compound good. I think the point bowriter is trying to make is that a lot if people go in and put down a lot of money and there insent bowhunters yes with a little help they can shoot good in no time, but that will not make you a bowhunter!! I see it all the time . a case in point this year in New Mex. (elk hunt) a father and 2 grone sons came into camp all with top of the line bows and talked how they a great day of hunting with 6 shots between them, all over 100 yds!!! they had been shooting for 2 months and don't see how they could have missed !!
I was born in 72 and my dad bought me a compound bow when I was 8. So yes 1980. I cannot tell you how happy I was being able to shoot a 6" group at 20 yards after flinging glass arrows with a re curve of unknown make into a paper plate at 15 yards. Fast forward 38 years and I am shooting 6" groups at 60 plus yards. Is that all skill and experience?
Inherent accuracy of the bow by itself hasn't changed gigantically. What has changed is how much easier it is to BE accurate with today's bow. Combine higher let-off with extreme speeds and improved stability. To that $1200 modern compound you'll add the latest sight, stabilizer, release, fall-away rest, laser rangefinder, peep, sling, perfect arrows, tiny vanes and so on. This isn't at all a knock on modern weapons. Anyone who thinks the bows and accessories of today don't result in improved accuracy (as used on the range and in the woods)....doesn't have a grasp on reality. Arguing it any other way is simply playing with technicalities and rhetoric.
JCarrow old wind bags did not say one thing about making them better hunters. He said "Not one person, today, shoots one iota better than they did 30-years ago"
What are grone sons?
Scoot, LOL! I couldn't agree with you more. Don't forget we ALWAYS get to hear how many years he has been doing it along with a trip down memory lane.....because clearly if you've done it that long........you know everything.
Bow hunting and archery are two different pursuits that are sometimes practiced together.
Being a great archer won’t make you a great bow hunter and vice-versa. But being a great archer will definitely enable you to kill more animals. Same for equipment with more potential to excel.
And as for whether or not a bow is worth $1,500, to the buyer, that can only be answered by the one who’s parting with the cash. I don’t buy new vehicles. I could buy that expensive bow, every year, just with money I save on taxes and insurance.
Are professional tournament scores higher now than thirty years ago? That should be your answer.
I think too many of y'all's opinions of the thread are clouded by your opinions of the thread creator. Anecdotal at best, buy here's one cat that doesn't shoot near as well as he use to, despite having a better bow. Old age does lots of shit to you, none of it good. I tend to agree with Ike.
Let me think about this a bit to see if I agree.
Well, when I was about 12 or 13 years old I was at the local dump with a friend of the same age to "hunt" mice. By then I had discarded my self made tree limb bows for a state of the art semi transparent green fibre glass kids bow (without a felt rest or a nocking point of course).
We had just arrived when I spotted a sparrow sized bird in a pile of cans over sixty yards away (most likely further than that, I could just make it out). Just for the heck of it, I said to my partner "watch this" and I drew, raised my bow to the sky and released. The cheap wooden target arrow made a rainbow like arc and landed in a puff of feathers.
Hmmm... I'm approaching 65 now and I don't think I could do that with the Hoyt Provantage compound I shot for a while years ago, nor with the $1,200.00 custom longbow I shoot today.
Gadzooks!!! He must be right, LOL!
Yes, pro scores are much better now. There are hundreds, maybe a thousand guys who can shoot clean 60x scores now compared to only dozens of guys 30 years ago.
Ken T. yep if you have shot for awhile and started as a kid you can recall a shot you made, I have a couple I"m sure I could not make today. Ambush is right on a good archer does not make you a good bow hunter or woodsman.
When I started bowhunting in Nebraska back in 1980 the success rate for archery deer was 11%. I remember because I filled my tag and it was a big deal. Today that success rate is around 30% and it certainly is not considered a big deal. I'm betting the average hunter spends less time in the woods per season as well. The average deer today is larger/older. A lot of factors lead to this but an improvement in equipment is most certainly one of them.
I don’t know what you guys are talking about.
My wife says that I’m “God’s gift to women and bowhunting”.
That has nothing to do with equipment.
When I started way back in the mid 80's, I hunted with a bear Kodiak Hunter. I missed every thing under the sun. Wounded a few too. I switched to compounds a few years later and missed a lot but, started killing things. Switched back to a recurve and killed a bunch of stuff. Back to a compound and killed a bunch of stuff. Back to the recurve and longbow and killed a bunch more stuff. Now, I mostly hunt with a compound and while I know I will, I have yet to miss anything with it since starting back. So, shooting better has definitely been part of it due to education in the compound game and, experience in the trad trials. Plus, a lot better equipment in the compound arena.
“A guy can be shooting a brand new bow and hitting the bullseye at 20 yards after about an hour at the pro sho now.”
In 1990, a buddy of mine did exactly that with a Browning compound, 3 pins and a tab. Took him about 20 minutes to start putting his shots into about 4” at 20. We’d go stumping together and on almost every mark we’d pick out, I’d beat him on the first shot and he’d blow me out of the water on the second.
“I agree with John. There is absolutely no question that nearly everyone shoots better today than anyone did 30 years ago. And it takes very little practice for the average person to get to that shooting level, because of the quality of bows, sights and the like, unlike 30 years ago. 30 years ago, all you heard at a 3D shoots was aluminum bouncing off trees and rocks. There were broken arrows everywhere. Today, misses are far rarer on these shoots.”
I don’t disagree, but I’m not convinced that Bowhunting is the better for it.
I will say this, though.... About 10 years back, I bought a used Bowtech, and in very short order I was unhappy with 40-yard groups that were about 1/2 the size of what I was used to thinking of as a “good” group at 20.... So I asked myself why I was happy to be a crappy shot with a “Trad” bow, and decided that I really don’t want to suck at archery.
Sorry folks but John is right. 300 rounds have been shot a long time even with recurves. The best shooters of 30years ago are really no better than the best today. The average Joe, maybe a bit better but not much. I wish some of you guys would show some respect. John has done more for bowhunting than most and even if you disagree you should not be aholes about it!!! Shawn
The new bows are way better. I don't even practice anymore and my last three were one shot kills that died in seconds with no tracking necessary
Recurves can't get marginally better. String material has done more to produce better results then any bow design or material choice. But, it is a joke to suggest that Compounds haven't. Its like saying a Model T is as good and trouble free automobile as the Modern F150.
John does this for kicks. He isn't dumb or defenseless. No one is giving him what he hasn't willing looked for. It simply does not bother him.
Please allow me to offer my perspective, one from a man who shot his first bow, a Bear Archery Kodiak Magnum recurve at the ripe old age of 12 and killed his first animals that same fall with it, mostly rabbits, and a few pheasants, ducks and geese some 43 years ago. I Bought my first compound a York Archery Excalibur in the mid 80's. Since that bow I have bought compounds from Golden Eagle, High Country, PSE, Hoyt, Bowtech, Elite and Darton and I undoubtedly have missed at least 2 or three other brands. I presently are shooting and love my Darton DS3714. I can shoot it far better than any other bow I have ever owned. I am also a much, much better all around archer than I was even 5 years ago let alone ten. The reason to why this is, in reality actually many reasons. I know for 100% certain I am a much more knowledgeable archer NOW than I was even 5 years ago let alone 10 or 15. Even though I am still a ways from being considered an advanced archer in terms of knowledge I'm at least no longer a novice, and that in of itself has made me a much better all around archer. Advances in arrows, release aids and rests has without doubt made it much easier to be a good archer than prior to their invention and wide spread use among archers. But what has made without doubt the single biggest impact on the skill level of the average archer can obtain and the speed at which it can be obtained is directly in front of all who is reading this eyes, the beloved internet. Never before has it been so easy to gain access to a near limitless wealth of archery information that can help you literally cut years off your archery learning curve. No longer is tuning your bow a mystery you have to learn on your own by trial and much error and suffer the short comings of your ignorance.
Thanks to wonderful archery websites like this one the answer to at least 90% of your archery problems are but a few key strokes away from being solved. This advantage, immense in size was unimaginable even when I first began years ago.
Without doubt I am a much, much better archer, and hunter than I was even 10 years ago let alone 20 or 30, and most of it is due directly to the tremendous improvements in compound bow and related equipment technology, and the unlimited amount of excellent information available courtesy of the internet on how to make yourself into the best archer you can be from diagnosing and curing problems with your shooting form, tuning your bow, your arrows, in short if you have a archery problem either with you or your equipment, you can more likely than not find a cure for it here on the internet. This simply was not possible as recent as a generation ago. I have to disagree with the OP, things in archery have IMHO changed a great deal over the years and save for the ever increasing cost of things, the change has been for the good of all in the sport of archery regardless if you hunt targets or animals.
It certainly matters how you define what he's saying. I was assuming he was talking about shooting at animals because this is bowsite.com, not archerytalk.com.
Been saying this for some time. What I do believe is that the advantages of todays bows cause more losses than bows that are half as advanced. The new bows make many people over confident and flat out stupid, in regards to what they believe their bows can change. Many people (who post threads asking for tracking advise ) believed their bows were magic wands it seems. Speaking for myself (here in the woods) I see no diffrence between my recurve and my Oneida. My shots are all 20 or less and neither bow makes me shoot better or makes the deer dumber.
I was a much better shot years ago... Shoulder pain has made it harder for me to be consistent. But I am a much better hunter than I was 10 years ago.
I started shooting bows in 1968 but I'm not nearly as old as Bowriter. One thing he has accomplished by stirring the pot with his jibberish is he's getting the attention he craves.
Grape, I paid $79.95 for my new Bear Whitetail Hunter in '76 or '77.
That’s a half dozen arrows today mike
