Mathews Inc.
Best western draw process?
Elk
Contributors to this thread:
cnelk 07-Nov-18
elk yinzer 07-Nov-18
BOWUNTR 07-Nov-18
Trial153 07-Nov-18
Willieboat 07-Nov-18
Deertick 07-Nov-18
NoWiser 07-Nov-18
Mule Power 07-Nov-18
cnelk 07-Nov-18
Fallfreak 07-Nov-18
Bowfreak 07-Nov-18
Inshart 07-Nov-18
IdyllwildArcher 07-Nov-18
ElkNut1 07-Nov-18
YZF-88 07-Nov-18
ElkNut1 07-Nov-18
sticksender 07-Nov-18
WapitiBob 07-Nov-18
Z Barebow 07-Nov-18
TheTone 07-Nov-18
JohnMC 07-Nov-18
Bowboy 07-Nov-18
elkstabber 07-Nov-18
Brun 07-Nov-18
Brun 07-Nov-18
smarba 07-Nov-18
flyingbrass 07-Nov-18
IdyllwildArcher 07-Nov-18
Brookie 07-Nov-18
elkstabber 08-Nov-18
midwest 08-Nov-18
TXHunter 08-Nov-18
Mule Power 08-Nov-18
ElkNut1 08-Nov-18
Mule Power 08-Nov-18
altitude sick 08-Nov-18
Trial153 08-Nov-18
Mt. man 08-Nov-18
NoWiser 08-Nov-18
Brun 08-Nov-18
JohnMC 08-Nov-18
NoWiser 08-Nov-18
Trial153 08-Nov-18
JohnMC 08-Nov-18
NoWiser 08-Nov-18
JohnMC 08-Nov-18
sticksender 08-Nov-18
Trial153 08-Nov-18
JohnMC 08-Nov-18
otcWill 08-Nov-18
midwest 08-Nov-18
cnelk 08-Nov-18
cnelk 08-Nov-18
JohnMC 08-Nov-18
WhitetailHtr 08-Nov-18
WapitiBob 08-Nov-18
Willieboat 08-Nov-18
WapitiBob 08-Nov-18
Mule Power 08-Nov-18
IdyllwildArcher 08-Nov-18
Z Barebow 08-Nov-18
TXHunter 09-Nov-18
midwest 09-Nov-18
sticksender 09-Nov-18
Trial153 09-Nov-18
Z Barebow 09-Nov-18
tkjwonta 09-Nov-18
NoWiser 09-Nov-18
cnelk 09-Nov-18
Willieboat 09-Nov-18
Mule Power 09-Nov-18
From: cnelk
07-Nov-18
The CPW is about to have their next 5 Yr BGSS [Big Game Season Structure] meetings. Im not sure sure what/if any thing will change, but it prompts the question....

What western state has the best draw system for elk? For both RES & NonRES

It seems most states have their own way of doing things, and not modeled after any other state.

From: elk yinzer
07-Nov-18
Idaho

From: BOWUNTR
07-Nov-18
Nevada. Ed F

From: Trial153
07-Nov-18
There is no best. They all have their positives and negatives. If we were designing it from the ground up I think we would be best served to draw upon a combination of states. Personally I would make it almost all random with maybe bonus points, a 85/15 resident to non resident quota ( unless resident tag quote weren't being filled then I would up the non resident quota) no outfitter welfare pools and no land owner welfare. I would have nominal license fee structure that would be paid by all participants in the draw that well funds the department and conservation. I would also have all tag fees paid up front. I would I also incorporate some type of application quota per individual, similar to Idaho.

So that looks like mix of Idaho, NM, WY and Montana.

From: Willieboat
07-Nov-18
Nevada

From: Deertick
07-Nov-18
I'd make it so that we could apply up to 10 years in advance ... and tier the units, so that top-tier units could only get 1 or 2 applications in 10 years. It might spread things out a bit, and get people to think that they will need to be hunting "mostly general, occasionally draw, and rarely prime" units.

All units would be draw only. Then, a person might get to know that in 3 years they already drew a prime spot. Withdrawals from death or whatever could be handled on an annual, left-over status. Biologists would have to have the ability to expand or contract seasons as well, so tags would be numbered such that they could be "adjusted" as populations change.

I think under the current system, random draw states are the best for the whole system, but preference point states are best for older hunters.

From: NoWiser
07-Nov-18
New Mexico minus the outfitter pool. As a NR in every western state, I think an 80/20 Resident to Nonresident split is about right.

From: Mule Power
07-Nov-18
I’m happy with Wyoming. You have to accept price increases and it’s your choice to shell out big bucks if you want to apply in the special draw. But now that the elk drawing results no longer come out in February maybe it’s not so great anymore.

From: cnelk
07-Nov-18
Mule Power - Results are the same for this coming year

From: Fallfreak
07-Nov-18
I for one am glad WY is still doing results in February. Makes it easier to apply for other states when I know I have or haven't drawn in WY.

From: Bowfreak
07-Nov-18
The February results will still happen in 2019. If there is a change, my bet you can bank on it, it will be 2020 before we see it.

From: Inshart
07-Nov-18
WY, staying the same (at least for a couple more years) - thanks for that info.

Would really like to hear what others have to say about CO? In the past it has taken us about 3 years to draw our LE unit. Do you think that will change drastically?

07-Nov-18
People won't think WY has such a great system in 10-15 years when they're in the same boat as CO is now. The only reason WY looks so good is because the system was put into place so much later than the rest.

I do really like NV's system, but I don't think you can say there's a "best system," because every state has to be different based on the number of elk they have in the state and how many people want tags. NV doesn't have that many elk and they manage their herd well so their system does the best at dealing with what they've got.

CA and CO are probably the worst and OR isn't that far behind CO as their system is very similar to CO's.

MT's system is just ridiculous for NRs.

ID's is great and that state does a great job juggling OTC and LE tags.

AZ's isn't bad for what they've got and the change a couple years back was certainly an improvement.

NM's was a good system before they changed the tag allotments and gave away the tags to LOs to be sold to the highest bidder. Now their system is ridiculous and the guide pool is used as a ploy to obtain tags and is nothing more than outfitter welfare.

I've said it a million times: When demand outstrips supply, someone has to go without and preference point systems give people who get in year one the system is in place an unfair advantage their entire life at the expense of all those that come after them. Even NV's system does this to some extent, but at least everyone still gets a chance and the vast majority of the tags aren't going to Baby Boomers who were alive, hunting, and could afford the systems when they were put in place.

From: ElkNut1
07-Nov-18
Idaho, isn't bad if you're a lucky individual. (no points system) I've not drawn a single elk tag here in over 30 years! Yet I have a friend who's drawn the unit I apply for 3 times in the last 15 years & it has a 30% chance of drawing! Oh well????

Give me OTC DIY Public Land every year & I could do without any draws! I simply love the challenge of OTC hunts! (Hope I draw AZ this year - grin)

ElkNut/Paul

From: YZF-88
07-Nov-18
"Idaho, isn't bad if you're a lucky individual"

Paul, I hope we're not applying for the same unit! I've drawn a good controlled elk tag 2 out of the last 4 years in Idaho. If it makes you feel better, the nice bull I shot this year...was really busted up! I totally agree with your attitude on the challenge of OTC hunts though! For a person with that perspective, I think Idaho has the best draw system.

From: ElkNut1
07-Nov-18
LOL! Jason you lucky dog!!! My Son & I have applied since he was 15, he's now 40. Between the two of us we've drawn one! I guess we're just unlucky! Ha Ha! It really doesn't bother us much since we can hunt OTC units every year. I guess I'd rather hunt elk every year with my Son no matter where than once in a while if we waited to be drawn somewhere! Good luck to all & enjoy yourselves no matter where you hunt!

ElkNut/Paul

From: sticksender
07-Nov-18
Since your question is restricted to limited draw elk, I'd have to give Colorado and Wyoming the nod for "best draw system". That's because they're the states where you can hunt limited draw elk the most frequently as a NR (every 2-3 years if you want). That's what I value in a draw system.....how often can I get a decent-quality elk tag. At the bottom of the list would be Nevada & Utah. Although those 2 states have great quality, there's a chance that you, as a NR, will draw only one limited bull elk hunt there in your lifetime, with higher odds if you settle for a "lesser hunt". Nevada you may never draw, especially if only starting to apply now. In the middle of the pack would be Idaho and Arizona and New Mexico, where you can possibly draw a decent limited tag every few years. The best hunts in those 3 states will never be drawn by most of us, but of course that's why those hunts are good.

From: WapitiBob
07-Nov-18
"When demand outstrips supply, someone has to go without and preference point systems give people who get in year one the system is in place an unfair advantage their entire life at the expense of all those that come after them."

A fact that's ignored by many, up until they draw, then they're the first to talk about changes to the process.

From: Z Barebow
07-Nov-18
"When demand outstrips supply, someone has to go without and preference point systems give people who get in year one the system is in place an unfair advantage their entire life at the expense of all those that come after them."

""A fact that's ignored by many, up until they draw, then they're the first to talk about changes to the process. ""

This reminds me of an encounter I had many years ago. I hunted some private land which the farmer was began subdividing and selling lots. (His purgative. No kids to take over and I knew my days were numbered) One of the early buyers was a professor from a nearby community. The professor struck up a conversation with me. He commented on how beautiful this area was. I agreed. He then told me that "we" need to try and stop the subdividing of the adjoining properties to retain the beauty of the area. If I were drinking coffee, I would have spit up in his face. He couldn't see the hypocrisy of his comment. (IE Now that I [emphasis] have my little slice of heaven, we need to change the rules)

One of the biggest gripes perennial applicants have is the rules changing while knee deep in the PP race. Study the regs for each state. They all have pros/cons. That is the great part of living in America. Apply for the states that suit you, don't apply in the states that do not fit your wants. I like every one in which I apply!

From: TheTone
07-Nov-18
Idaho and New Mexico because they don't have a point system, although I'd put NM second due to the amount of tags that are in the outfitter pool.

From: JohnMC
07-Nov-18
I like to the preference point system. Why should I guy get a tag the first year over a guy that has been try for years? Make zero since. Biggest problem with CO systems is we have too many out of staters. Not enough elk or land for the pressure put on OTC units. Raise the prices and/or limit number of tags for out of state. Do something to encourage them to hunt more in other western states. The CPW is a whore for the tag fees of out of staters.

From: Bowboy
07-Nov-18
I like WY. MT is a very cumbersome system in my experience.

From: elkstabber
07-Nov-18
Regardless which state's system is chosen to be the best.

The applicant should have to put the full money up front in order to apply for the tag. This will sort out the people who aren't serious about getting a tag. Then the applicants should be notified and/or refunded within 2 weeks, maybe 3 weeks at the most. There is no excuse for why a state should hold our application fees for more than 3 weeks.

From: Brun
07-Nov-18
I am not a fan of random draws. I like some sort of preference point system because I think it is actually more fair and rewards people who take the time to learn a state's system. It also allows you to plan much more accurately and learn an area before you hunt it. This leads to a better hunting experience when you do actually draw. I would say Wyoming has the best system for elk and Colorado for deer. If we could create more limited entry units[or an all draw for non-residents, as Wyoming does] for elk then Colorado would be in better shape.

From: Brun
07-Nov-18
I would like to add one more thought to my earlier post. Some people claim that a preference point system is unfair because the people who get in early are ahead of others who get it later. I don't see how this is any different than getting in line for sports or concert tickets before other people. How is this unfair? I certainly wouldn't expect to move to the front of the line in one of those situations, nor do I think someone who got in early for a hunt should lose their place. There will always be less quality tags than there are people that want them. I would much rather see a tag go to someone that has waited for years than someone who just decided to throw their hat in the ring at the last minute.

From: smarba
07-Nov-18
Random works well for RESIDENTS. As a resident of NM I'd rather have a chance every year than have zero chance for 1, 2, 3 or whatever years.

For NR some sort of point system has merit because one can begin to plan/schedule when one might/will draw a tag.

That said, I still like the random across the board...

From: flyingbrass
07-Nov-18
Nevada with squared bonus points

07-Nov-18
Brun, because this is how it works:

You get in year one. Because demand outstrips supply by so much, you finally draw your tag after 25 years. The guy just getting in, doesn't have a shot at 25 years. He'll have 50-60 points and die, still not drawing a tag because the guys that got in years 1 and 2 are the ones that draw the tags for decades and decades. Once they die, the guys after them get a shot and so you have a situation where only guys who are in their 70s and 80s who started applying at an early age are the only ones that draw.

This is what's in store for every draw where there are thousands of apps and few tags given out. A guy who starts applying at the age of 30 has zero chance of ever drawing in his lifetime because he'll be dead before his number is drawn because they guys who started applying when they were 20 or people who put in for their kids, end up being the only ones that draw in a preference point system with a great enough app:tag ratio. It's not first-come-first served. First comers are the ONLY ones served. They get superior odds their entire lives and as soon as year 3-5 newcomers to the draw have little to no chance of drawing their entire lives, but sit back and watch as year-1 guys are basically guaranteed a tag eventually at their expense.

In a perfect world, whoever waited the longest would get the next tag. That works great when there's enough tags to give out whereas people are only waiting 5 or less years for a tag. Otherwise, there's just run-away point creep.

Look at sheep in CA for a good example of this: Year one applicants get 1 in 50-70ish odds their entire lives and that pool will never be exhausted because of the size of the pool and the number of tags until all those guys die. So you've got one group of people who get not-so-bad odds their entire lives while guys who got in year 2, 3, 4, etc, have 1 in 600-1000 odds their entire lives unless they outlive the year-1 guys.

How is that even close to fair? It's not. It's ridiculous. Preference point systems are a Ponzi scheme that rewards year-1 applicants unless there's enough tags such as that, years down the road, point creep has not crept that far. Preference point systems were borne of bad math and horrible foresight.

And Sticksender,

"I'd have to give Colorado and Wyoming the nod for "best draw system". That's because they're the states where you can hunt limited draw elk the most frequently as a NR (every 2-3 years if you want)."

A lot of that has to do with the fact that they have some of the biggest elk herds. More elk = more tags available. And CO's 2-3 point units? There are OTC units in CO that are better than most of them. Their 2-3 point units have little to do with their system and everything to do with how many elk are in the state. And those units often times give out 2000 tags per year once you add up archery, ML, and the 4 rifle seasons with success rates in the single to low-double-digits. There are CO and ID OTC units that consistently out-perform those numbers.

WY's general tag is an "ok" tag and 10 years from now, you won't be hunting it every 3 years; more like every 5, and that's not going to stop.

With all due respect to you guys and I mean that, what I see consistently is Baby Boomers who've been in the game since the 90s when these systems were put in place, defending them. And the rest of us look at these systems and see them for what they are: Pure BS.

And I absolutely love PP systems for being able to plan, so long as I'm not planning for 50 years from now when I'm too old to hunt the tag...

Any tag that creeps past 10 points should be lottery or bonus points. Otherwise, it's a Ponzi scheme and I feel that their defense is just self-serving.

From: Brookie
07-Nov-18
Random sucks

From: elkstabber
08-Nov-18
Idyll has studied every state's draw process and understands it thoroughly.

My opinion is very similar to Idyll's. Any tag that creeps past 5 preference points should be random lottery or bonus points squared. This allows us to plan for good tags within the next couple of years and also have a shot at great tags every year. This system gives the younger/newer hunters something reasonable to look forward to.

From: midwest
08-Nov-18
Random is really the only fair way and if you draw, you're out of the draw for a set number of years in the units that are extremely limited.

Some will get lucky and draw more tags than others. Same as any other lottery.

From: TXHunter
08-Nov-18
Trial153 above has the best synopsis/solution I’ve seen in a long time. It basically mirrors my thoughts - bonus point (not preference) system, fair R/NR allocation, tag fees all up front to keep the “let’s just see if I can hit the lottery” guys out of it. Many like pure random draws but I think they are not fair because IMO those who have applied for years and years should receive at least some advantage for their loyalty/$$ invested over time.

WY has the best system overall IMO. I don’t think anyone else is even close. The random draw aspect makes gives everyone at least a chance. Plus they provide good, clear unit by unit info. Finally, their application process couldn’t be much easier to navigate. Most states seem to be incompetent at providing information and/or setting up an intuitive application process. At this point in the evolution in technology I am convinced they do it on purpose.

There is and can be no system that will satisfy all when demand always exceeds supply.

From: Mule Power
08-Nov-18
Ike.... in 10 years Wyoming will still look the same to me because it’s my go to state. I don’t bank points waiting for some dream come true tag. I hunt it every year one way or another. There’s some point creep even with general tags so I just party app with people who have enough to draw.

From: ElkNut1
08-Nov-18
X2 Midwest!

ElkNut/Paul

From: Mule Power
08-Nov-18
Just like Wyoming goats. No point system. I like it. I can’t recall hearing any complaints either.

08-Nov-18
Alaska! All random no points. Great OTC tags. Some great draw hunts. The only complaint is the required Guide. But that isn’t the topic.

From: Trial153
08-Nov-18
The biggest problem we have is a multistate problem regardless of system. When one individual can submit 30 plus applications in all states your never going to mitagate that effect on any point system. A hard multistate cap if it was instated would be the quickest way to get a handle on the current inflation that we are seeing. That would buy us some time till a better more random(read fair) system is worked out. I find it amazing that we claim to want to preserve and grow our hunting heritage and yet we pretty much by default only promote policies that are almost always more profitable (for lack of a better word) for the individual then the sport as whole.

From: Mt. man
08-Nov-18
Idaho is my home state so yeah I am partial to that. I cannot stand the thought of Points so I love Idaho and the completely random lottery. Everyone has the same chance regardless of their bank account.

From: NoWiser
08-Nov-18
Those supporting a points squared system have obviously not done the math to see what happens to them after 10+ years. If I started applying in Nevada right now, my odds would go DOWN (and they are almost zero to start) for many years before they'd start creeping up. It's a crappy system. Almost as crappy as straight preference point.

Now, a plain old bonus system is not too bad of a way to go. I could definitely get behind that in each state even though I do prefer a complete random draw.

From: Brun
08-Nov-18
Idyllwild, You have obviously studied many different systems, and you make some good points, but that doesn't mean your conclusions are all accurate. I didn't get into Colorado's point system for 10 years after it started and I still like it. Most guys are going to die without getting the most premium tags under any system, random or preference. I personally like being able to understand when I might get a certain tag and plan accordingly, even if it's not the most sought after unit. I have never spent one dollar on a lottery ticket, nor have I ever entered a random only hunting drawing. That's just me, but I see no reason to throw money away without a reasonable chance of any return. I think you are better off saving your money and buying a guaranteed tag when you know you can use it. We have[Colorado] a point system for deer, but it is all limited entry and you can draw an excellent tag with just a few points. With some changes to the elk process we could have an excellent system without going random. I also know of several 2-3 point units in Colorado that are vastly superior to OTC. They are physically brutal, but there are good bulls and not big crowds. The harvest numbers may not be that impressive, but they don't always tell the whole story. Wyoming's system has been in place for quite a few years now without,[as many have predicted] any big jump in points for a general tag, although I acknowledge it has gone up a little. I think we all realize that the ultra premium tags will always be in short supply, and short of huge dollars, you have to be lucky to get one. It will be interesting to see what, if anything, Colorado does with their new 5 year season structure.

From: JohnMC
08-Nov-18
I have 17 points for elk. For the last 17 years I have chose to hunt OTC and save to hunt a premier unit years down the road. I could have drawn several tags for lower point units. When after say 22 years a decided I want to burn points and hunt a top unit. Why should some guy putting in first year get tag instead of me because of luck of the draw? Why should I get the tag instead of someone that has already waited 20+ years - I shouldn’t Point system is more fair system than anything else.

Not a much different than managing your personal finances. You can spend it as you get it on a bunch of small stuff. Or you can save, do with less now and down the road purchase large items. I guess in both cases people will be jealous because they can’t comprehend focusing on a goal years down the road. They thing they deserve as much as the guy that has sacrificed for years right now.

From: NoWiser
08-Nov-18
You can focus all you want on goals years down the road but, the fact is, if you were born too late those goals (tags) are literally impossible to achieve in a preference point system.

From: Trial153
08-Nov-18
I am not sure if it's a truly a lack of understanding or just a lack of giving a shit about other people. But regardless, the fact remains that no matter how much chest thumping and personal responsibility rants someone does, a young person just getting into a preference point system has no chance to draw the same tags as someone that been in the system since its inception or close to it and they never will have that opportunity no much planning and patience they have. Couple that with the fact that cost for both individuals to participate is the same at a given time, however the opportunity only exists for one of them. This should be red flag that systemic flaws exist in the design. Now we are on the cusp with two options. First we can just keep stuffing our face while Rome burns down around us, secure in our thoughts that we are getting our slice of the pig and to hell with everyone else. Or secondly we can start taking steps to correct or at least mitigate the situation. Quite frankly the future of hunting and the North American model of conservation depends on it.

From: JohnMC
08-Nov-18
There is not a elk tag in CO if you start putting for when you are young you will not draw. I started putting in when I was about 23-24. I should be able to draw any elk tag in CO in my mid 40s. It will be a lot sweeter after waiting all those years. Even if there is a 10 point creep someone starting in early 20s should be able to draw top unit by the time they are in 50s. Bottom line preference point system is the only way to guarantee you will eventually get a slice of the pig. God for bid if you wanted until you are 50 to decide you want to be a elk hunter. Then you hunt one of the many great units that take 3-4 points years to draw. Not the end of the world or end of hunting. Still lots of good hunting with out getting to hunt one of the very few units that people have deems the best of best.

Hell if you want total random take the money you are putting into the draws and buy lottery tickets or go to Vegas and bet on green. Bet $500 each year you will about 5% chance of winning. If you win you will have $8500 to buy any elk tag you want. Probably cheaper than putting in for few random draw tags and better chance of winning. Then take the winnings and buy landowner tags go hunt any unit you want. Brilliant!!!

Problem solved keep preferences points for guys that like them and a random draw for those that like to roll the dice.

From: NoWiser
08-Nov-18
Ha! 10 points of creep in 30 years for top tags?? Keep dreaming. It will be much closer to 30 points of creep than it will be to 10.

From: JohnMC
08-Nov-18
I still think the best answer to point creep is severely limiting the number of out-of-state hunters. Ha! Most state do a much better job of that than CO.

You out of staters act like units that take 1-10 points are not worth hunting. That it is the guy’s fault that dreaming of hunting big elk since they were knee high to grasshopper and been playing the game since, that you can’t get a tag and he should have no preference over the 50 year old New Yorker that saw elk hunting on a hunting show and decided he wants to go in next few years. Ridiculous argument.

Notwise mentioned tags will be impossible to get. With a preference point system or a random draw if only a few tag available it will be impossible for some to get - ever. The only difference one allows luck people that have not dream and put out effort for years to be the fortunate one and the other guarantees the one who has put out the most effort for the longest time to be the lucky hunter.

I will guarantee on average the guy that has put for 20 years to draw a tag will appreciate it much more, then someone that put in on a whim and draws the tag their first year trying.

From: sticksender
08-Nov-18
Brun, you speak from experience in CO, and that’s what counts. By the way, all the never-ending theorizing and debating and rationalizing about draw systems typed here is entertaining, but I doubt it will be of much usefulness. Because state game depts such as WY & MT (and very soon CO) have found the point system Golden Goose and they’ll continue to guard it jealously. As far as the low-pp CO Elk hunts, those can continue to fly under the radar as far as I’m concerned. The thousands of guys in the 5-15 pp tiers could do a lot of damage to the system if they ever get wise to it. Something similar has already started to happen to the WY NR gen hunts.

From: Trial153
08-Nov-18
At least we can learn a lesson from this tread. While you maybe able to fix a states draw system, you can't fix some individuals ignorance.

From: JohnMC
08-Nov-18
Like guys from New York they believe they deserve whatever they want the hell with everyone else that have waited their turn.

From: otcWill
08-Nov-18
Amen, Trial. Blows my mind how few people understand their current and long term odds in different systems

From: midwest
08-Nov-18
++++Trial and Will. Some people have no clue.

From: cnelk
08-Nov-18

cnelk's Link
Some changes look to be coming in the CPW Pref Point process in 2019 - to be discussed in the Nov meeting

see link

From: cnelk
08-Nov-18

cnelk's Link
Another change to the CPW Leftover Draw may be coming too

This link also looks at hunter recruitment - both youth & adult

see link

From: JohnMC
08-Nov-18
Why not negotiate the pay structure with their vendor? That would have potential to recoup some cost. Instead all gets passed to the consumers.

From: WhitetailHtr
08-Nov-18
I think that most folks forget that fish and game is under public domain. We all own it equally. IMO for that reason everyone should have an equal chance to draw.

Random draws for me.

From: WapitiBob
08-Nov-18
Wyoming pays CC fees on both sides of the draw, when the app is payed, and when the refunds go out. For 2019 WY is charging a fee when you apply. By law, AZ has to refund in the same manner as the initial payment; they can't get a CC processor to take their business should they go to pay up front because of the refunds.

From: Willieboat
08-Nov-18
Kinda curious here.......of the people commenting on this thread...how many of you are applying in 6+ states a year ????

Or even 3 + a year ???

From: WapitiBob
08-Nov-18
I apply in OR, WY, UT, NM, and AZ.

From: Mule Power
08-Nov-18
I like Wyoming because you can draw based on points and if you don’t you get another chance in the random.

What let’s the cat out of the bag though is the price of points. If they are used simply to implement a fair system why do they have to rob us for them! Sticksender nailed it.... Golden Goose!

08-Nov-18
"There is not a elk tag in CO if you start putting for when you are young you will not draw."

JohnMC, that is just flat out, demonstrably wrong unless you count starting when you're a child and drawing when you're 80. Yes - someone has to draw the tags - so it's heading towards this: people putting in for their entire lives for only old people to draw. Even 61 creeps 4 out of 5 years and it's not even that great of a hunt. Yes, that means you catch up one year every 5ish years and it currently takes 22ish points to draw. With that level of point creep, it'd take over 100 years to catch it if you started now. Now, that's ridiculous because people don't live that long and apply that long, but my point, as noted above, is that if you start at age 30, you're not going to catch the unit even when you're pretty old or perhaps when you're very old.

And the real trophy units in CO in the NW corner of the state which are really the only hunts in CO that are worth saving decades for, are even worse.

It's true: If you started saving when you were a kid in the 90s, you could hunt those units. Start saving now and you're looking at your only chance at drawing being when you are very old and everyone else has died. The system is broken and was flawed from the beginning.

Again, look at my stats for California's sheep tags and their preference point system which is almost identical to how WY does their's: Year 1 applicants: 1 in 60ish odds for their ENTIRE LIVES. 1 in 600-1000 odds for everyone else forever after that. How is that fair? That's not "waiting your turn." That's rewarding only people who got in year 1 at the expense of everyone else. AKA a Ponzi Scheme.

You mention CO's deer tags... no comparison. The point creep in CO's deer tags is very low because the entire state is on a draw and there's lots of tags which is why most units cost 1-3 points and deer populations fluctuate with winters that don't affect elk like they do deer.

From: Z Barebow
08-Nov-18
I apply for LE elk in 4 states minimum. If I don't draw, I go OTC.

From: TXHunter
09-Nov-18
I have applied for sheep tags in 10-11 states for 17 years now. WY has the best system of all of them IMO with the random draw tags in certain units. Gives everyone a chance every year. Their PP system has the same issues as the rest of them with the high demand/low tag animals like sheep and moose, but the random tags make up for it.

I see a difference in sheep, moose, goat tags and premium elk/deer tags.

If a hunter wants to hunt elk and mule deer every year, they can do it somewhere. Just set yourself up a system across several states and stick with it. For example, WY general tags offer some excellent hunts. So there’s not near as much reason to whine about the chances for an AZ strip tag, etc. If a premium elk/deer tag is that big a deal to you then bank points, wait, and hope for the best. That’s what guys who want to hunt sheep do - I’ll end up paying for apps/points/licenses in 10 states for 30 years but I’ll be lucky to draw a tag. At least you can be hunting elk or mule deer in some state every year.

Again, that’s just the way it is when there are a few tags and thousands applying for them every year. Not everyone is going to draw one - even over the course of their lifetime.

A lot of the complaining about the high-end tags comes from the fact that some folks seem simply unwilling to grasp that fact. Also a lot of it comes from the fact that many guys focus too much on one state. Again, learn the systems across the states and learn to tailor them into your individual hunting plan. It’s not that hard, but it does take some research, time, and commitment.

From: midwest
09-Nov-18
6 states for elk.

From: sticksender
09-Nov-18
cnelk, thanks for posting those links. Interesting the spin within this quote: "Going back to a pay-before-you-draw approach could disenfranchise new customers who participated for the first time in the 2018 drawing." REALLY? These thousands of new applicants took zero interest in any of those species before 2018. They only decided to apply when it became "too cheap NOT TO apply, so what the heck, I might as well". The phrase "musn't disenfranchise" is more like code for "we need to keep them on the hook for the future, when we start charging point fees for every species".

From: Trial153
09-Nov-18
5 states for elk this coming year, that's about avg for me, not counting PA and Ky who dont really count. I put in over a dozen states total for all game each year for everything else.

From: Z Barebow
09-Nov-18
sticksender +1

From: tkjwonta
09-Nov-18
Do you guys think a tiered system could work?

For instance, let's say the state has a handful of top quality elk units, make these require 10 preference points. The middle units require 5 points, and the lowest are 1-2.

The kicker would be, the preference points would be specific to each type of hunt and you can only do one type of hunt or preference point purchase per year. So if you want to build for the top quality hunts, you have to commit to it, and no OTC hunting in the mean time. Once you reach the required preference points for the hunt level you want, then it's just a random draw among those applicants.

I don't think this system would work for all species, but for elk and possibly mule deer it might keep the points game from getting out of control.

From: NoWiser
09-Nov-18
Or just get ride of preference points entirely and turn them into simple bonus points. But, that would make too much sense.

I apply in 6 states for elk with the goal of burning my points as soon as I possibly can in each state. Often I use my points for cow tags. So, the point creep for top units doesn't really affect me. But, I'm not blind to the fact that it's a complete scam set up to drain hopeful hunters of their hard earned money while only benefitting the generation that implemented the system. It's amazing to see people so blind to their own selfishness. To hell with the kids, I want MY tag.

From: cnelk
09-Nov-18
I only apply in 2 states.

Im fortunate to have decent OTC areas.

I do know when I draw other states, or LE units, I actually miss my OTC hunting. But thats what I get for hunting them for 30 yrs. :>)

From: Willieboat
09-Nov-18
I apply for elk in 7 states now....would be 8 but am still in waiting period in Nevada.

Will probably drop out in Colorado because I'm in no mans land with 8 points.

Wish i could draw New Mexico.....the only western state I'm missing an elk from ;)

From: Mule Power
09-Nov-18
No Wiser the bonus point system in Montana SUCKS! It’s the worst of both worlds. Basically it’s a random draw. You can have a hundred points and never draw. Ever! That blows. At least with preference points you eventually get something for your money. I walked away from my Montana bon..... bogus points.

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