Why only shoot old bucks?
Whitetail Deer
So, I have about 160 acres in Kansas that I get to hunt. It has lots of nice deer and a few monsters. I get to hunt about week a year. I generally take the first nice deer that gives me a good shot. Some have been monsters. Most have been nice deer. Some years, I eat tag soup...
I hear crap like "you should have let him go another year". I don't understand it. Who cares if I shoot a nice 2.5 year old deer. If you really want to have 5 or 6 year old deer, you need to fill my tag on a 2.5 instead of a 3.5 or 4.5.
I look at it this way... I'm on a fishing trip and trying to bring home some walleye for dinner. I catch a few legal walleye and I'm thrilled. Why do other folks insist that the only way to eat walleye is to keep only 28" walleye??
You don’t have any does around? If you want meat, shoot a doe or two. If you want to shoot big deer, you have to let nice deer walk. It’s more acceptable today to let a buck walk and shoot a doe instead than to shoot a 130” buck with potential to say, “I got my buck!” Yeah, they might get shot by the neighbors but that’s what you have to do. You can’t unkill something and he isn’t going to get bigger if you shoot him or they shoot him.
The biggest size limitation for most deer in Kansas is age. Being from there originally and doing work throughout the state, the next state record may come from any county. Writer will back me up on that statement. Some counties hold better deer but in most areas, a 5.5 year old buck in Kansas is going to be a shooter for the majority of hunters. We let nice deer walk all the time, even on the last day of season.
I don't think he said anywhere that he wants bigger deer. He said he wants people to get off his back for shooting what he wants to shoot and to quit judging him because of it.
Shoot what YOU want to shoot. As long as you do it legally and ethically, who cares what other people think.
It's gotten ridiculous. Everyone's a trophy hunter. I get so tired of hearing "if you want meat, shoot a doe". Well, if you want more deer, shoot a buck. Any buck.
I understand when you are hunting a large managed area but most of us are hunting little patches of private or public land. Shoot whatever makes you happy, fills the freezer, and don't let some a-hole shame you for it.
Are you asking for permission? Do whatever you want its your tag. Ive never heard anyone suggest eating 28" walleye. :)
I would love to see a larger percentage of people passing young bucks here in MN so a few more could get to be mature. I doubt anybody would mind having more mature deer around. In the end its your choice. Have fun.
I might slap someone for eating a 28" walleye. We pretty much only keep them between 15-19".
because it is part of the fun. oz
Shoot what makes you happy. Three years and up makes me happy, so that's what I shoot. In the past, I've been mighty damn happy with anything legal, so that's what I shot. I don't ask others what I should shoot and I don't tell others what to shoot. See how that works ?
Edit to say this: If it's your "friends" telling you what to shoot, get some different friends.
It’s dumb. People want to buy just enough land to put up a treestand, then dictate to everyone else how they should do things. The only reason being it suits them best. It allows them to buy their land, their new truck, toys, take the family vacation, and still love the dream. I think it’s the most selfish thing I’ve heard of.
If you want older deer, buy enough land to Influence the age structure in your herd. But, quit saying older when you mean bigger horned.
I like big horns as much as anyone. I really do. I just dont understand people’s desire to make others live to suit their best wishes. Grow up!!!!!
If you don’t care about size or age, then why buy a property in Kansas? Do they taste better than the deer any where between Wisconsin and Kansas? If I’m filling a freezer I’m not driving 500 miles to shoot a a small one. Just my thoughts but I really don’t care what you do or how far you drive to do it. Why do I shoot older deer? They excite me hunting a buck that’s old and smart. It’s not hard in the Midwest to shoot 2-3 year olds. Nothing wrong with it but nothing challenging about it either. This 3.5 year old ten watched me get in my blind and ten minutes later gave me a shot opportunity. I could have killed him a bunch of times this past week, he’s young and stupid. Maybe in the next two years when he blows up from 140-180. It’s not for everyone but I feel the least bit of any emotion shooting an average deer or a doe. That said I sometimes kill a doe for the freezer, it’s work not fun though.
People are sheep. They just reconstitute the barf they hear from elsewhere. The "latest greatest" thing right now is shooting mature deer. 10 years ago it was just the biggest rack on the place. Now it's shooting old deer, or deer 5+ years old. That's what websites, magazines, and TV shows are talking about now, so that's the big thing. Who cares what people say. Go hunt, have fun, and do whatever you want to do that's legal.
Young buck I’ve been passing
I agree with the thought process of shoot what makes you happy, however there is a caveat to this... -Don't *itch and moan when there is no "big deer" to go after! For every action there's a reaction. I'm a firm believer that there needs to be a happy-medium here. Every hunter is not alike.
Hunt safe and respect others and their choices.
APauls - and I thought I was the only one that noticed that. Great way to put it into words. Agreed.
Shoot what you want to shoot. You only live once. No regrets.
APauls and several others nailed it. Shoot what makes YOU happy. If you like the first deer you see, take it. If you like to wait for an old, cagey buck or doe, wait. Have fun and enjoy whatever time you get to be outside hunting. Would be a pretty boring world if we all had to do the exact same thing.
If everyone shot a meat doe then everyone would bitch their is no deer around can’t win.
Because meat only lasts a season. Antlers last forever.
But whitetail are ugly rat deer anyway, so who cares.
Good thoughts all...
I'm not complaining about big bucks. There are several really nice deer on the land. I think I'd have a chance at one if I had more time.
We really don't hunt the land that hard. We maybe take 2 bucks each year and those have not been the monsters yet.
So I'm actually helping to make monsters. If I had more time and waited for a 3.5 or 4.5, there would be less likely to have 5.5 or 6.5s.
I only have a week or so to hunt. I'm quite happy with a "nice" deer with my bow. With my rifle, I'm a bit more selective.
Some year, I'll save my time better and really go after one of the monsters. I'm certain that I could get a chance at one if I really had time to give it a real effort.
And the place has lots of deer. So we try to take a few doe each year. If anything, I think we should take even more doe.
I just wonder why complete strangers feel compelled to say "you should have given him one more year" when they know nothing about me, my goals, my experience, or my availability to go hunting...
Shoot what makes you happy. Sounds like you have a good age structure there so plucking a younger buck that presents a good shot opp is not going to disrupt things.
Sometimes it is about where you hunt as well. Here in central VA, I have yet to see a buck while hunting and only have one 2.5 year old on camera (lots of pressure ... 3 buck limit, 7 week rifle season, dog running). The bucks don't get to age so that younger buck may be my one and only chance.
Was on an outfitted hunt in KS this year and shared camp with a guy who only wanted an old buck of 5.5 years... not necessarily rack size but aged based on body. He drew a good stand and passed some decent bucks that some of us may have shot ... but he held out and got tag soup.
To each his/her own.
I like shooting old deer because then I can see their potential, rather then shooting the young best genetic deer. Nothing to do with tv rage, just like watching them grow, which gives me greater satisfaction then killing. I enjoy trail cams more then hunting. If I don’t see the one I want I shoot a spike. With all our wolves and winter there is a very low chance a spike will live to maturity. Makes sense to me, but anyone can do as they wish.
Ambush nailed it... "Meat only lasts a season. Antlers last forever. "
Shoot what you want... I like meat and I like antlers. There is no right answer for every hunter. Go forth young man.
Mmm mmm! I love me some walleye!
Why shoot only older bucks?
Because some of us hunt where there are lots of deer and we want to up the challenge. Same reason we hunt with stikbows. Most people who hunt mature deer could care less what others hunt. So shoot what you like. Not all mature deer have large antlers. I killed a 10 year old doe this weekend, antler isn’t the point ..............since you asked
I like to eat old walleyes but you can’t always tell by size. Last week I caught a 10 year old walleye that was only 19 inches long.
If it is your land/your lease you can do what you want. If you want a big buck, you must allow time for the animal to mature and grow good antlers.
Link- I could have killed him a bunch of times this past week, he’s young and stupid. Maybe instead of young and stupid he just hasn't seen any hunting pressure. The size of the antlers doesn't make a buck any smarter. A hard hunted 3 year old with a 100 inch rack might just be smarter than an unhunted 180 inch 6 year old deer. If you plop your corn pile and blind down where i hunt you will be lucky to see an 80 inch deer in daylight. Everyones circumstances and what they are looking for from their hunting, are different. And as long as it's legal it is only the guy who has the tags decision TO SHOOT or not. I always look at as if he shoots a young buck and is done , it makes more room in the woods for me to hunt. Then he's happy and so am i
Every hunt for me has a specific goal... meat hunt (any deer or doe only), buck hunt (open to what feels right), trophy hunt (again what feels right).
Cause I just shot a moose. No need for meat.
I have come full circle. Went from brown is down to only trophy, aged out deer to now shooting what I feel like on any particular day. Fo the most part I shoot does unless is is a mature buck but do not rule out a nice 3-4 1/2 yer old buck if it will make me happy to harvest that deer. I'm beyond letting the internet or TV personality driving what i kill.
When someone either buys my license for me, or owns the land/lease on the place I'm hunting, then they can tell me what I can and can't shoot. Aside from that STFU. It's MY tag, and MY hunt, not yours.
There are a ton of reason why you should shoot older deer. Hunter Satisfaction rates increase when there are more mature bucks on the landscape for one reason. Just so you know, I don't care what you shoot. It's your land, you can do want you what. Quality Deer Management Association (QDMA) is so much more than "shooting old bucks", a lot more. I quickly pulled this off QDMA's website. Check out their site for more information on QDM and what it can do for the deer, wildlife habitat and all hunters.
When a deer population is socially and nutritionally balanced, hunters witness the full range of social behaviors.
“Bachelor groups” of bucks can be observed in summer.
Rubs and scrapes are more common in the woods.
Hunters witness more buck fights, see more bucks chasing does, and more often hear vocalizations like grunting.
Calling techniques like rattling are more productive.
Overall, the rut is more apparent and intense, leading to a more enjoyable hunting experience and higher hunting success.
Other benefits include dramatically increased success at finding shed antlers, which also leads to greater knowledge of travel corridors, bedding areas and feeding habits.
Working with habitat and planting food plots increases a hunter’s connection to the earth, to wildlife and the outdoors, and many QDMA members report happily that hunting becomes a year-round pursuit instead of being limited to hunting season.
Of course, there is also the benefit of having a better chance of seeing and harvesting a mature buck, because more are present. Given good nutrition and other benefits that are part of a socially balanced deer population, bucks can express their full antler potential in each year of their life.
My 2016 buck
My 2016 buck
My 2015 buck
My 2015 buck
Shoot whatever makes you happy. I am after A big deer every year. But it can change at any moment. Shot this little one cause my boys were with me. And when it was getting close my youngest whispers"shoot it dad". So I did, and it was one helluva fun hunt.
Well, I do think you should shoot what you want. I also think you're nuts to shoot young bucks when you have tons of does that need to be shot. I'd shoot does for meat unless I didn't get a crack at one, then I'd shoot a smaller buck maybe. But in a week, I'd think you'd have opportunities at does if they're plentiful. If I had a week, I'd shoot a doe or two, and hunt for one of the monsters. But that's me. You need to do what you want to do and not worry what others say.
I shoot what makes me happy,I never had the need to tell others about them so obviously I don't have to listen to the opinions of others.
Here is a host of more reasons, since you asked. BC
I hear ya. I've let plenty go, and over the years, I mean plenty. But, as I get older, I'm shooting some of them. At my age, if I keep waiting until next year, they may out live me ! Keep it fun...no one is filming you !!
I have never been able to age a deer on the hoof, it is guess work at best.
I like many dream of that big old buck. Have eaten many a tag in the last decade. However when I think about it I don’t care to have any more mounts in my house. So if I’m in a tree and the encounter with any deer at the time is enjoyable I’m letting the arrow fly. I’m about meat I suppose.
That being said I’ve spent the last three Friday through Sunday in the woods and the whole rut thing ain’t happening.
Big bucks sure when there are a few around AND I have the opportunity. If its late in the season, a younger buck gives me the shot, no does around. I'll take it. Granted, I generally hunt on public land. In my state the rut coincides with firearms season, until that changes most bucks will be shot at a younger age. Don't buy into QDMA not being about just big bucks nor do I care for 4 pts per side antler restrictions. Too many examples of respectable 6 pt bucks around. Hunting buddy shot one that was in the 130s last year. Who has any right to say that would be a illegal buck in some parts of the state?? How about the younger hunters, many a bowhunter shot a spike, forkhorn 6pt as their first buck. Are you going to take away their opportunity too while crying about lack of recruitment??
Plus any buck with a decent 8 pt rack in the second year will get shot also, the exact opposite effect if you just care about big racks.
Ill only shoot an old buck when my license says 'OLD BUCK ONLY'
I’m actually on the opposite end of the spectrum during our rifle season. I hope all the hunters shoot the first nice 2 year old they see. That way they’re out of the woods and out of my way to pursue the bigger 3 and 4 year old deer ;)
Actually a lot of bucks that people are calling "old" here are really just mature...btw, sounds a lot better to non hunters if you say you hunt mature deer vs. trophy deer. A higher percent of mature bucks will be trophy bucks for many, anyway so it's really truthful.
Everyone here should read the info at the link Bow Crazy provided. Hunters have a responsibility for healthful deer herds vs. distorting age classes too far from what is natural, IMO.
I'm 69 and I care about everything more and more...
Hunters go after old bucks for the challenge. Meat hunters go after any deer for the meat. Most meat hunters are bad hunters and would likec to shoot an old buck but can’t so they say they are just meat hunters. If you put a 100 pound 180 inch buck next to a 200 pound doe the “meat” hunter will shoot the buck every time.
27 counties in the NW corner of Iowa are "buck only" for gun season now because everyone one is shooting does for meat just like they're supposed to. Farm Bureau thanks you all. For every doe you kill, you kill 3 deer for next year so if you're not seeing many deer, shooting a 1-1/2 year old buck may be your best choice. Large tracts of well managed land are different.
Any idea what to do in heavy CWD zones?
I passed 7 or 8 really nice 3/4 year old bucks last week hunting my rutcation in Ohio. To me it feels great seeing them, watching them scrape, rub, chase, grunt etc. I got some great short videos of them all except for one as I definitely had my bow in hand...he was nice but found my self questioning him and there was my answer. The land I manage I don't have to share but I do and because of that I ask to only shoot mature deer. I have seen like many of you, younger bucks that get passes grow into big bucks. It works, I am lucky the hunting pressure around me isn't that bad. I could have tagged out early in my vacation and that would have been great but having a buck tag still, I am so excited to go back out this wknd! What others shoot on their land/public is totally up to them. Good luck to all!
I am so tired of the inches of antler mentality, how old a deer is, and gotta have a silly name and many years of "history" with the deer. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy big cool racks too. I enjoy tracking various deer over the years that I have trail camera pictures of. I will never give a deer a silly people name though ... to me they are "that wide 8" or the "heavy 10", etc.
It gets old though getting judged by others on what you shoot. I'm not talking about just the internet and social media outlets. Even buddies or co-workers. I get friendly ribbing or one upping between friends, but to criticize a person's choice in shooting any deer is wrong. I shoot a lot of bucks that are just OK in terms of what most consider a trophy. I shoot them because hunting is fun. I love to hunt and kill what is a good buck in my eyes. I get a thrill out of calling in a deer and letting an arrow fly when it all comes together. So if that deer is a 100" 2 1/2 year old or a 150" 5 1/2" year old, what difference is it to anyone other than me? The rush is the same. The thrill is the same. The end result is the same ... good food, good memories, a nice photo, a warm gut pile, and a sense of accomplishment.
Killing a deer is a very personal thing. It is hard to not let the comments of others get to you. But at the end of the day it is your hunt and your deer, shoot what makes you happy.
PA10point you’re right on. I simply answered why I shoot mature deer. Not why you should. I don’t care what you or anyone else shoot, why would I. The only people ive told that, “that one needs a few more years” are family that hunt the same property and have the same objective. Some people have to fill a tag, some people shoot a buck every 3 years but when they do it’s a big one. I really don’t care which you are.
Shoot whatever the hell you want and quit worrying about what the next guy shoots!!! Gosh this gets sickening year after year after year..
I've shot plenty of average bucks in my life. I will continue to do so unless a big one walks in first. I don't care....I like to kill deer with my bow and I like to eat them.
"Hunters go after old bucks for the challenge. Meat hunters go after any deer for the meat. Most meat hunters are bad hunters and would likec to shoot an old buck but can’t so they say they are just meat hunters. If you put a 100 pound 180 inch buck next to a 200 pound doe the “meat” hunter will shoot the buck every time"
Boy is this is one of the biggest BS post if I ever read. My friends and I have been meat hunting for 50 years and I would match our hunting skills with any trophy hunter out there. We have even taken a few nice mature deriver those years. Bt I'm sure from you stand point it was just luck.
"It's gotten ridiculous. Everyone's a trophy hunter. I get so tired of hearing "if you want meat, shoot a doe". Well, if you want more deer, shoot a buck. Any buck."
Yup
"I am so tired of the inches of antler mentality, how old a deer is, and gotta have a silly name and many years of "history" with the deer. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy big cool racks too. I enjoy tracking various deer over the years that I have trail camera pictures of. I will never give a deer a silly people name though ... to me they are "that wide 8" or the "heavy 10", etc. "
Couldn't agree more. It cracks me up when things like that happen.
Interesting differences in mentality even among hunters: I have caught big walleyes and shot some big deer. I have 3 boys and we eat ALOT of wild game. Especially burger, we can't really tell the difference in how old the deer was....it all eats the same. I guess for walleyes, you can turn them loose which I try and do and big walleyes have a lot of red meat anyhow. We can't "catch and release" yet in bow hunting so I live with my choices. The largest scoring deer I ever shot was in Kansas and I had permission to hunt a small 80 acre piece. The surrounding property was hunted as well. I started getting photos of a beautiful non typical buck that ended up having 24 scoreable points and grossed 193. However, after the fact and examining the teeth and skull plate and body size, he was probably 3.5 years old. He probably could have been a 240+ non typical in a couple years. I wouldn't change a thing, I'm happy I had the opportunity to take him and have no idea if I would have ever seen him again or a neighboring hunter took him or he's hit by a car, another buck etc......Have never controlled much land or been part of a management area. On a side note, when I went to pull my stand later that winter, there was a shiny spent rifle casing laying under the platform on the ground. I supposedly had the only permission and have no idea what they shot:(
"Most meat hunters are bad hunters and would likec to shoot an old buck but can’t so they say they are just meat hunters."
WTF is this???
Just another ignorant post.
This is why quotes like that exist. Here is a quote from someone above: "Boy is this is one of the biggest BS post if I ever read. My friends and I have been meat hunting for 50 years and I would match our hunting skills with any trophy hunter out there. We have even taken a few nice mature deriver those years. Bt I'm sure from you stand point it was just luck. "
Totally contradictory. Individual claims to be a meat hunter, ie: a mature buck is the last choice. But then says they've also taken mature bucks and says that others think it was probably luck. There are a lot of meat hunters out there that are perfectly fine being meat hunters but the instant they shoot a large racked buck it becomes a bragging point.
I just want to re-iterate that I for one think it is dumb that some people impose their own values on others. Sure, I try to kill large racked deer. But I couldn't give a flying rip if the neighbor is happy with shooting 1.5 year old bucks. All the power to him. As others have stated the inconsistencies start when someone shoots....ah what the heck am I typing this is so dumb. Not sure why I'm getting in on this. I really hope everyone has a wonderful hunting season and I sincerely hope you are able to enjoy the great ourdoors and be thankful for the time we can spend out there. So many places there is no such thing as leisure time. All the best fellas. May you find what you are searching for out there, whether it is meat, antler, or simply time outside. All the best, Adam.
I'm still wondering about the math and the effect on the deer herd...
Right now, it is just me and a buddy on another buddy's land. It is 160 acres. One way or another, we'll take two bucks and maybe 4 doe off the land. It seems that the best way to help create monsters next year is to shoot two 2.5's this year.
The best way to help create monsters next year is to shoot mature deer or nothing this year... If you shoot 2.5 year olds this year then you might have monsters next year but in 2-3 years your going to be short a few bucks that would be 4-5. If you want mature deer but have to fill your tag, try killing a mature buck that in your mind has inferior head gear.
Well first of all, eating a 28 inch walleye over a 15-18 inch, I don't think so. As for deer, factor in the success rate for archery and you should take the first deer that presents a good shot. Once you fill your freezer, then you can go play the horn porn game. I always get a kick when I talk to guys on heavily hunted public land who say they passed on a 3.5 year old lol. My response is, 1 you must not like venison and 2 you'll never see that deer again, it will be shot. Shoot whatever makes you happy and don't worry about this aging deer etc... I love all the guessing of she, no one can tell unless you take the teeth.
LB I agree it’s hard to guess whether a buck is 4.5 or 8. But the difference in 2.5 and 4.5 is night and day. The difference between 3.5 and 4.5 is still fairly obvious. You add in trail cams with pictures year after year and for those that use them aging a mature buck (4.5+) versus a non mature buck (3.5-) is not difficult. FWIW I don’t hunt private for white tails and if I did my objectives might be different.
I hunt 500 acres. We average shooting 2 bucks a year off of it. I honestly cannot see how it makes any difference how old those two are. If they are "young" then we have not killed two older ones. If they are "old" they certainly won't get any older but we will have not killed two younger ones that may possibly live to be old. The only benefit I can see for age restrictions is that it may possibly limit the overall number of bucks taken. I assume that everyone will agree with this logic, accept it, and move on to the next important issue, perhaps "can a doe be a SHOOTER"
loprofile, I hunt 160 acre pieces that generally have neighbors with the same management ideas. Say you have 3-2yr olds, 3-3yr olds and 4-5 mature bucks on 600 acres. Every year you kill 2-3yr olds. That leaves 1 three year old that has to survive outside pressure, predators, cars. Sure killing 3 year olds 1 year might not change much, year after year and after 4-5 years the 3 three year olds are your oldest deer. You might have one that slipped by the other pressures or maybe even moved into your area but as a whole your herd would be less mature. I realize those are fake numbers in a fake scenario but regardless if you kill too many young deer, that’s all you’ll have is young deer. I’ve seen it where my properties border neighbors that take that approach. They kill small deer after small deer and wonder why they never see any nature deer.
If you shoot too many old deer you also will only have young deer. I think the key is not to shoot "too many" of any deer.
That’s possibly the biggest part of the equation. That said in my scenario if you shoot 2 of the mature deer, one gets run over or something. Next year you have one returning mature deer but 2-3 3 yr olds that are now 4. It’s just a matter of choosing to kill mature vs non mature, whether you want to kill 2-3 yr olds or 4-5 yr olds. Again I don’t care what you do but it’s hard to argue that age management doesn’t work.
To your point lo profile, in my scenario if you only killed 1 deer a year it likely wouldn’t have a large affect on the age structure. However most people are probably hunting 80-160 acres. When that person kills a young deer and many of the other small parcel neighbors do the same you get a young buck herd.
I have to pass on deer because YOU want to shoot them when they're bigger.....got it. Nice job man, how'd you get to be my boss? I hope you cleared that with my wife!!!
"Again I don’t care what you do but it’s hard to argue that age management doesn’t work." Can't argue that. (Or "I can't argue that")
WW you missed the part where I stated I don’t care what you do....
My neighbors mostly agree with me. We know that if we pass the 140” 3 yr olds, we will have opportunities at 170”ers. Sure sometimes I pass the 3 year old so the neighbor kills it when it’s 4 and even sometimes the next day. It’s been that way more times than not but the alternative is that me and my neighbors kill 130-140” three year olds on ground that has produced deer that gross over 200”. I’ll take my chances of letting a deer walk.... WW one more time so you get it. I don’t care what you, anyone else, or my neighbors do. You do what you do and I’ll do what I do. ;)
"If horns aren't your thing, shoot a doe." But the last I checked the bucks are made of meat too, more meat in fact and they taste just fine.
I have yet to meet anyone that when presented with the choice would rather shoot a young buck than an old bigger one.......
I have been blessed to live/bowhunt in big Buck country all my life (no-I do not have a wall of P&Ys). I started in 1956. Was I ever a horn hunter? NO. Am I now? Yes & ONLY because I've killed over 100 Whitetails with a bow (all sizes Bucks & Does). Long b/4 we had all these bonus tags, it was one tag per year regardless of weapon. Now, we have bonus this & bonus that. I set a personal goal about 10 years ago & have eaten my tag all those years. I no longer shoot Does as I leave them for the newer hunters & in the long run, hamburger at the store is cheaper... I see Deer every year killed gun season that I passed in easy range. No problem, it's hunting & they are happy.. To much emphasis about horns these days in my opinion. Maybe once a new hunter has a few kills & enjoyed the "fun" of hunting they may consider being "selective". No big deal if they don't.. When was my last Buck killed? , ummm, like 10 years ago. This photo was my best kill after 22 years of bowhunting, not a giant but great for me.
I agree a hunter. What ever deer, be it a spike or a 3 yr old ten with great potential, that steps in front of my kids is fair game. That said I try to take my kids to places where the neighbors shoot anything.
All of the above scenarios clearly point out that if you shoot too many young deer, you will never have big deer. No one will argue with that.
But that was not my situation. We are going to take 2 bucks off a nice 160 parcel. Not more. Not less. In that situation, it really doesn't matter how old they are. In fact, our chances at a monster go up if we shoot 2.5's instead of 4.5s...
OK but when those "monsters" get to be "giants" be sure to use a Vortex bh if you want to kill them.
Mad Angler, If all the hunters in your area kill a young buck every 80 acres, there won’t be that many mature bucks. You aren’t doing anyone favors by killing 2.5 year old bucks. Now if you just want to do it, have at it.
No need to justify your actions.......
No need to justify your actions.......
Not an old deer by any means but for this young mans first deer he is very happy. 20 gauge shotgun.
Not an old deer by any means but for this young mans first deer he is very happy. 20 gauge shotgun.
Usually when I read “I’m a meat hunter” I hear. I don’t want to pass deer and possibly not kill something so I will let everyone around me do all the work. Then if a 150” buck and a doe are standing next to each other of course the “meat hunter” will shoot the doe. Yeah right. I know a lot of hunters. And I know of one true meat hunter. He is 85 years old and Would probably not even take the antlers if he ever shot a 150” deer. I have let 3 people shoot their first deer on my property this year. One was yesterday. I always tell them shoot what you want to shoot. I have not shot a buck on my own land for many years. I let them walk. I shoot does for fun and meat. Most around me let them grow also. Except one “ meat hunter” that shoots any and every buck that walks by him. He is benefiting from everyone around hims work to let Deer grow. And then professes to by the holier than thou——we’ll you know what what he is. A MH
Oh....so if it's a "mature" deer then it's YOUR'S??? Howzat work? Last time I looked, the tags said either "Antler less only" or "Either Sex". And why is it that when some people put at a food plot they suddenly think the WILD DEER that come to it are "their" deer and they think they can dictate to everyone else what they should or shouldn't shoot on their own ground?
Some people hunt for meat, some for ego, and some of us just hunt for the sake of hunting.
No one here is arguing that they would rather shoot a forky than a 150. Antlers are impressive and almost every hunter naturally likes them and likes the idea of killing a really big buck. What some of us are saying is that we enjoy shooting deer and eating meat and we don't all get to shoot 5 does every year and choose from 10 different bucks. In my opinion, the purest motive you can have for killing a wild animal is to eat it. The antler game quickly becomes an ego thing, one of the results of which is snobbery toward everyone who doesn't hold himself to your personal subjective standards of what is acceptable. A 150 inch buck would be nice but that is not what drives me to hunt. I realize that some of you can't think of anything but massive antlers but don't forget that you are not the only people in the woods. Antlers are on my list of reasons why I hunt, but they are not at the top and I'm not the only guy like that.
If you just love to hunt then why so quick to fill your buck tag with a fork buck? Seems to me that's a good reason to hold out.
Then just say “I’m a hunter” . Why the I’m a meat hunter tag line. But as I said. I let people shoot what ever they want while hunting my place. I choose to let bucks walk so they and my neighbors may have more mature deer. That’s the beauty of it all. We can all choose what suits us. But I get tired of trophy hunters like myself and others complaining as much as I dislike meat hunters complaining about trophy hunters.
Really depends on deer density and sex ratio, doesn’t it??? At 8 per mile, you take 6 off of 160 acres and you won’t have to do it again next year, but in places where there are ridiculous numbers...
JMO, it’s always good to pass on a 1.5 YO buck if you can do it and not blow your one shot at filling a tag. I’ve lost all patience with “quality” management, because it seems like a smokescreen for Horn Farming, but so many places have too many deer and jacked-up sex ratios and age structures that it’s just Stupid.
People talk about hunting big ol’ bucks for the “challenge” of it. You want a challenge? Lose the bait piles and the food plots and the hinge cuts and all the other habitat manipulations; leave the rangefinder and the scent-killer and the tree stand and the trail cams at home with the 85% let-off and the release. Go find yourself a place to sit with a stickbow or an old 50% let-off compound and shoot off your fingers with 1 or 2 sight pins. Or none at all. Better yet, don’t just sit there! Go sneak into a bedding area and see what stands up to check you out.
Everybody wants a challenge... just so long as it doesn’t keep them from killing the size buck that they want on a fairly regular basis....
RoughCountry touched on this as well. Like I said earlier, the QDMA groupies all preach older deer. Mature deer. Let’em grow up. It sounds great. But, I’m betting 99% of them would shoot a 3.5 year old 160 inch deer. Guaranteed. Who could blame them either?
Herein lies the problem with the QDMA. If the followers would do as they say and shoot mature only deer, a large percentage of Pope and Young enteries would walk every year is my guess. As some of the largest deer ever recorded were not mature based on the definitions they try to sell you their product with.
Not all are this way. Most are though. So, for most it has absolutely nothing to do with age. Only Horn size. And, if it’s ok for them to shoot immature trophy racked deer, then it should be Ok for some else to shoot a 100 inch immature deer if they desire. Without hearing all the lies and sales pitches.
I guess I'll throw my change in... I've passed plenty of 2.5 year old bucks over the years, maybe even some 3.5 year olds. The result is that I haven't shot very many bucks. Does that make me a bad hunter? Well I can assure everyone here I'm no where near the best, but I put in quite a bit of effort (not the most here for sure). I try to balance hunting for meat and hunting for a trophy. Right now I have no meat (not good), so am at the point that I would shoot almost any deer! Speaking of which, big bucks generally have the most meat in the woods, so why would a meat hunter pass that up to shoot a yearling doe? I guess if you don't eat ground meat maybe, but I like to have a lot of ground venison myself.
For a while I shot generally does for meat, but lately I've been shooting 1.5 year old bucks. Why? Well for several reasons. They yield as much or more meat than the average doe, and I'm trying to let the does in some areas I hunt do some reproducing because the numbers aren't that high. I see as many bucks as I do does. Plus these deer offered me the first should-be-slam-dunk bow shot.
In addition, the 1.5 year old buck is probably the most likely deer in the woods to be shot. I don't necessarily agree with the guys that shoot 2.5/3.5 year old bucks when they couldn't shoot their trophy. Those are the deer with the most immediate potential as a trophy, and they have survived another year or two already, making them the deer with higher odds of making it to trophy potential. Odds of the random 1.5 year old making it to trophy-hood are not great, but after they put another year or two on their belt they start outsmarting hunters, predators, etc. Having said that, is my way the correct way? Well, not for everyone for sure, but I try to put some logic to the process.
“The antler game quickly becomes an ego thing...”
Many could say they same about people that just have to fill a tag. A lot of the “ meat” hunters I know fill their tags on an immature deer when they would love killing a big one, only to give their meat away as it rots in their freezer to make room for the next one. I am clearly not saying all meat hunters are this way but many I know are.
WV there aren’t many 3.5 160”ers out there. That said In 2007 I killed a main frame 13 pt that scored 175”, I believe he was 3.5. Had he not been a mile from town with road hunters circling like wolves and on some of my other hunting properties I would have let him go. Thankfully I didn’t because after i recovered him a realized he was infected badly from a ballistic tip bullet that hit a weed and sent shrapnel throughout his hind quarter the week before. That said I have passed up many 140-150ish 3 yr olds. If I want meat I shoot a mature 120” 7 pt for example or a doe.
I realize in many states passing 1 of the two deer you see a year is not an option or the county record is 100” 8 pt. I get that it’s hard to pass deer in those areas. Heck if I lived in a place like that I’d be a “meat hunter” too.
W said " Mad Angler, If all the hunters in your area kill a young buck every 80 acres, there won’t be that many mature bucks. You aren’t doing anyone favors by killing 2.5 year old bucks. Now if you just want to do it, have at it."
Everyone agrees with that. If everyone shoots every 2.5 year old buck they see, then there will be no old deer.
But that is not my situation. We are going to kill 2 bucks on this property. We have two options: Option A: We can hunt for 5-7 days and kill two 2.5 year old bucks. Or Option B: We will keep hunting for 5-20 days and maybe coming back with a rifle to kill two older bucks.
In that case, Option A actually increases our chances of having a monster on the land.
Again, we aren't talking about option C where we kill more than 2 bucks off the land. And we certainly aren't talking about option D where we kill every single 2.5 year old deer off the land...
Link. There may not be. Because there aren’t many 160 inch deer out there in any age group. But, the point is the point. Maturity and big horns are two different things.
I have no problems with anyone’s choices. I’m just confused why that reality gets lost in this discussion. FWIW, I do believe you are one of the 1%.
Thanks. Your point particularly when talking about tv hunters and how they use a deers maturity is spot on. I have a friend that called out a major league tv show ;) on the 3yr 140 being not mature when they said he was. On their social media they told him he had no knowledge of the deer and the area. Then he posted his own trail cam pics of the deer they killed and pics of it the year before. He quickly got blocked. Lol
That 175”er I convinced myself there was no way he could be three. When I recovered him, I found his sheds from the previous year not 5 yards from him. The year before he was 115ish. Had that deer been somewhere else and made it I have no doubt he would have broke the 200” mark at 4
Mad A, as a Kansas NR, how do you get to hunt both archery and rifle season? I haven’t been to Kansas in a couple of years, but it used to require a NR to choose between rifle and archery.
I call myself a meat hunter because I like to eat venison. Young animals, be them deer, cattle, chickens, whatever, are better eating than "mature" ones. Too me, it is about killing a healthy looking deer, the first legal, calm, healthy looking deer that presents a good shot. Yes, if it is mature and healthy looking, I will not give it a pass either. That is not contradicting. Why can't we as hunters, be both a meat hunter and a trophy hunter, or maybe just a hunter?
W. I lived in Kansas and bought a lifetime hunting license. I get a general resident deer tag. It allows any whitetail with any weapon. I also buy one or two doe tags.
I have spent a LOT of money on hunting. That lifetime license was BY FAR my best purchase.
I do find it slightly funny when I hear how older deer aren't any good to eat. I've never had any issue eating any age of properly cared for meat.
I deer hunt most days so I go thru different pursuits depending on which area I’m hunting. (Got deer tags in 7 states this year). Love shooting does then perhaps passing does for a while and hoping for a mature buck. After I hunt mature bucks for a while I want to shoot a doe again and the cycle goes on and on. That way I never get bored. Hopelessly addicted I am!
(Mid day on stand now looking for a buck today)
"If you just love to hunt then why so quick to fill your buck tag with a fork buck? Seems to me that's a good reason to hold out." I wouldn't shoot one the first couple weeks of archery (actually never because of the antler restrictions in PA) simply because I do like the idea of keeping my big buck options open. The last week of archery might be a different story. I'm not a "trophy" hunter or a "meat" hunter. I'm a hunter. If I had to choose between only ever being able to keep the meat or the antlers I'd choose meat. Fortunately we don't need to make that decision. I don't hate on "trophy" hunters as long as they don't feel the need to police what other people on other properties want to shoot. If its your land that's a different story. My dad and my uncle own several hundred acres that our families share as hunting grounds. I won't kill a small nice buck on there because I respect the groups desire to let bucks mature. Hunting on my elderly neighbor lady's property who doesn't give two shakes of a squirrel's tail about deer? Please don't be offended when I kill any legal buck I want.
I stand by my original statement. Do what makes you happy. Also...... don't ask if what makes you happy is the right decision on the internet and then get upset when people tell you what they think.
This has actually been a pretty good thread.
I appreciate that expression and I hope you have a great season!
I feel same about women. If I want something younger - don’t judge me!
I like to see things reach a ripe old old age. I started trying to shoot the biggest buck I could find at age 15 .I grew up without TV and we had dial up Internet so I was not influenced by hunting shows, just old ranchers that talked about "big ones"
Am I missing something? Why would you want to eat a 28 inch walleye? You want them to have the tail and head hanging off of each side of the plate.
Some rapid fire, random thoughts in no particular order.....
1. QDMA is a cancer to the traditional hunting experience of yesteryear.
2. Saying I like older age class bucks is corporate code for I like big horns.
3. What is the definition of a "mature deer"?
4. If you like mature deer, what's wrong with shooting an old doe to find that mature happiness?
5. A deer only has 2 names....dead and alive.
6. A deer only dies from one thing and it's not from slocking, smoked'em and smackdown disease.
7. Hunting shows and magazines often create unachievable expectations and demoralized hunters.
8. Unlimited OTC tags creates the "orange army" on the opener.
9. Unlimited OTC tags and APR's don't mix well on public land when unlimited people are trying to shoot a limited supply of bucks.
10. Retired folks who can hunt when/where they want have different hunting goals and definitions than working folks who only get a couple of weeks off a year.
11. It's poor form to tell a first time, proud youth hunter he/she should have let that spike or forkie walk.
12. Hunting can be an expensive and frustrating endeavor....but ya still do it.
Mad,
A lifetime hunting l
Mad,
A lifetime hunting license in KS allows you to buy a resident tag even if you are a NR?
Nick. Yep, if you are a Ks. resident and purchase a lifetime hunting license it allows you to buy resident tags even if not residing in the state anymore
Oklahoma is similar on lifetime licenses. I bought my lifetime hunting/fishing license for $400 when I lived there years ago. I am considered a resident as far as hunting and fishing privileges for the rest of my life. That includes all my deer and turkey tags. Some of the best money I’ve ever spent.
It probably helps that I don't really have a need or desire to show/tell about the deer I kill. I kill what I kill and it becomes meat, antlers and perhaps some taxidermy. My neighbors don't see it. Neither does anyone else except for a few hunting buddies. No Instagram.... no Facebook....no social media releases as soon as something is down (and not even cold). I don't crave attention or approval from people for what I might bring out of the woods. QDM is a mystic acronym where I live. My biggest ego massage comes from seeing my wife get excited when I succeed.
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For the record, I don't worry about what you, my neighbor or anyone else decides to lawfully kill while hunting. I may be entirely weird, but I don't pay attention to photos and glory-stories. To me, hunting is personal. My choices are personal. The results are personal. I don't need to have it evaluated, compared or justified. I grant that same space to other hunters. Measure yourself by what you do in the woods...not by somebody's tally sheet or the numbers on a scale.
I got a Florida lifetime sportsman license while I was still a res. Still good even if you switch res's.
Hey Jack have you noticed as the women get younger their racks tend to get bigger!
ahunter55 if you are already out hunting, and a doe walks by there is no mathematical way for ground beef to be cheaper. All you need to do is release an arrow. Your costs for hunting are already sunk. Not hunting at all vs hunting for meat I can understand meat at the store being cheaper, but not if you're already hunting.
Bottom line is people will tell themselves whatever their own mind wants to hear at the time. Been that way forever.
what is your goal ?
try and stick to that goal - if its any buck, a doe, a monster ...... hunt how you want
that said .... allowing little bucks to grow older is how older bucks are made
what is your goal ?
try and stick to that goal - if its any buck, a doe, a monster ...... hunt how you want
that said .... allowing little bucks to grow older is how older bucks are made
