Contributors to this thread:
CO New preference point fees
For a NR to apply for Sheep, Goat and Moose in Colorado in 2019, this will be the costs:
$80 Small Game License
$1.50 ????Wildlife Education Fee
$0.25 Search and Rescue
$10 Habitat Stamp
$27 (9 x 3) App Fees
$300 (100 x 3) PP Fees
It’s unfortunate that this is the fix to the mess they created by not charging the full license fee upfront last year.
Are they going to jack up the deer and elk prices too?
So DBHS is still going to be one in 2000 odds. And $100 for a point? Really? Something of, essentially zero value costs $100? I really wonder if last year was just a ruse to get everyone on board before they raised the point costs.
Idy, There are no preference points for DBHS, so I do not think you will have the extra $100 fee added to that application. Plus I believe the preference point fee is optional for all spiecies, you pay it only if you want a point is my understanding.
I realize that Rock, that's why I said it's still gonna be one in 2000 odds. Odds used to be around 1 in 300.
I'm still unclear as to whether they'll charge for weighted points?
I believe Desert Bighorn will stay random draw
The 'Big 3' are Moose,Goat, Bighorn
How does this fix the resident influx of new applicants?
Looks like NR tag fees will stay the same (except for bear that drops from $350 to $100).
All Resident tags all go up - Deer, elk, antelope, bear, mountain lion, small game, fishing by $8 and the big 3 by $50 each.
Show $50 R and $100 NR preference point fee for each of the big 3. Not sure if it applies to the weighted points.
The in increesed costs will be somewhat of a deterrent for NR applications. Last year was an anomaly however I think when you compare this coming year to previous year you will see a decline.
Hopefully they will fixed how the draw works... To squaring points or something that actually favor guys that have been building points for years.
Further something to keep in mind is that a license is now required for deer and elk draws as well.
Fish, in 5 years a guy could argue his 50 or 100 dollars a point for 5 years is worth more than your 3 dollars a point for 20 years. Just something to consider.
Is it just me or did they manage to screw up one of the only draws that made sense.
Sure there is the whole conversation about your random number when viewed in a mirror BUT
It made sense , send in your money fill out an application and cross your fingers.
This deal was made strictly to create revenue, time will tell what it actually does.
Previously, an annual fishing license was sufficient to be eligible not to be charged extra per species for the draw.
Under the new proposal, an annual small game license, Turkey license or big game license or combo fish/small game (residents only) is required.
So the point fee for elk and deer goes away under this change.
Also it's up for discussion it's going to have five points to get to draw instead of three
Did the NR small game annual license fee increase to $80 for 2019? I'm seeing a cost of $56 for 2018 in the brochure. Thought I read somewhere the NR license was not being increased for 2019?
Yes 80.00 (NR), and is now a mandatory purchase in order to apply for any big game tag. Here's a list of the new fees: https://cpw.state.co.us/aboutus/Pages/Our-Story-2019-Changes.aspx
Like Trial posted above, the non-refundable fees will now total about 417.00 (NR) when applying for the "Big-3" (Sheep & Moose & Goat). This year that total was 19.00.
Thanks for the info. There is no doubt that CO is milking their cash cow, the NRs.
The only positive (?) is that the draw odds will return closer to what they were. By that I mean lots of people applied when it only cost $19 and now many will back out with costs of $417.
WY set the standard and other states will follow. It is a no brainer. Sad but true
It's about money nothing more. Odds wont get any better in any realistic measurable sense.
This doenst fix anything, not even sure if it stems the bleeding..
Long term the only system that has some semblance of fairness and long term viability Idaho. Till we place total multistate cap individual cap on applications that is almost totally random we are doing nothing but building on a house of cards.
Seems so simple. There are so many people looking for so few tags. Make it totally random with no points. Charge for the draw so dfw still gets their cut and move on.
That's simple unless you have been applying and waiting in line for 20 years
That really is the problem, Some of us have been at this for quite a while.
I remember the years when I was in college, It was a big deal for me to scrape up the cash to apply. BUT I always dreamed of a BH tag so I maxed out credit cards and did things I'm embarrassed of to pull it off. Even when I was poor I thought it was fair.
Sure CO never promised us anything, but what a slap in the face this is. I'm so close today but so far away when the new batch hits the pool. I wish I thought $400 in fees would change things but I think there will be enough with 1 point to collapse the system for people in line with 7 or more.
If you look at the drawing table it is surprising to me how many tags are drawn with 6-7 points. Can you imagine what it will look like when the 1 pointers hit.
20 years! Short timers! And not just in Colorado! Beginning to regret starting to try and play these idiotic games...
I wish they would raise the big three resident fee to $1500 per....it is enough to weed out the "hey what the heckers" and not too much that really anybody that wanted it as bad as it should be wanted could come up with it
It’s still better then what it was this year, but leaves plenty of room for improvement. I wish they would look closer to the AZ system!
I was curious so I looked up the numbers, Sorry If this has already been posted and discussed.
New Applicants with 0 points. not counting Youth.
2017 Residents 1986 Non-Residents 499 2018 Residents 10,159 Non-Residents 8,514
Total applicants of all point levels: Residents 27,961 Non-Residents 15,709
I guess we will see how may stay in the pool this year.
There's a few glaring problems:
1. It does nothing for the ruined Resident pool. They still need to do something about that. If I were a CO resident who'd been putting in for the big 3 for years, I'd be furious.
2. For NRs, I bet it'll help some, but not much, to solve the problem for RMBHS, RMG, and Moose, but it will not solve the problem that was made to the deer, elk, and DBHS draws. In fact, DBHS odds will be made even worse by this change as the NRs fleeing the increased costs of the RMBHS draw will flock to the DBHS tag which was barely a reasonable draw before when it was in the 1 in 300 range. Now at worse than 1 in 2000 and climbing, it's a complete crap shoot and the NRs putting in for elk and deer draws, which will now continue to explode as there's no PP fee for them, will continue to destroy the DBHS draw.
After I cash out my elk/deer points next year in CO and seeing that I've already shot a goat in AK, I'm seriously considering just leaving the CO draw altogether. The lower tier elk/deer draws are just going to get hammered.
Very good synopsis, Ike. Sad how things are going here in CO for sure.
This is a complete mess.... Ed F
I’m one of the nr guys that has diligently loaned the co parks and wildlife my fee for almost 15 years. Just curious what you guys think- How many year one types will drop out this year because of the fee hike? 1/2? Man I’ve finally got some good places to go chase the big three- and I get the rug pulled from me. For now I’m in. But much more than this increase I’m gonna have to take my toys and go home
Wishedhead- This sentiment is becoming more common. Those of us who have been at this for the long haul actually understand how long the odds are. I'm ashamed of how many points I have scattered across the west and how few permits I a have drawn AND I have actually drawn some.
I agree that the deer and elk are the big loosers, My fall used to be based on my 1 point deer permits. Who knows how that will play out.
Not sure why DEER is this conversation. With the $3 app fee in 2018, there was only an increase of 2580 applicants - or about 5%.
I think the correction in Big-3 app numbers for 2019 will be large, due to the increased fees. But we'll never get back down to the applicant pool size of pre-2018. I don't see much change in Deer/Elk draw odds going forward. But I wouldn't be surprised to see point fees for those species coming in the future.
"I wish they would raise the big three resident fee to $1500 per...." Why stop there? Let's just auction the big 3 every year. Keep this attitude up, someone has more money than you do, and guess what, they may not be as serious as you.
My odds of drawing a sheep tag in CO will go up.
If, that is, I decide to keep playing the game.
Ok, I see where "application fee" has gone from $3 to $7 for residents and $3 to $9 for NRs.
Also, PP fees for Sheep, goat, moose has gone to $50/$100 res/NR.
But what will the preference point fee for elk and deer be? I don't ever pay them anyway, because I always have a big game tag, but know some that will pay them.
TX the thing is it doesnt matter if you held a license the year before or not for a pp for the big 3. You want one you pay $50. It'll be comin for the other four species soon. Mark my words.
txhunter, it will no longer matter what license you had the prior year. Starting next year, in order to apply for ANY SPECIES of limited big game license, you will be required to first purchase an annual small game hunting license, or a turkey license, or a fish/hunt combo license (only residents may purchase the latter). Cheapest route to satisfy this annual requirement for a NR will be the 80.00 small game license. There's no pp fee (yet) for Elk, Deer, Pronghorn, or Bear.
So, for an example, if you apply only for elk and deer, it will cost you (as a NR)....80.00 license fee, plus the 10.00 habitat stamp, plus the 9.00 fee for each app, for a total of 108.00. Same price regardless whether you apply for points only, or apply for actual hunt codes.
If you then want to add any of the big-3 apps, tack on another 109.00 per species for each of those (NR).
If thier cash strapped so bad why don’t they pull some money from the states dope fund
We had a $17 million dollar surplus last year (parks and wildlife). Wildlife side of the budget is about $140 million.
We have a lot bigger human population but about the same wildlife species and state size as Wyoming who's budget is about 1/2 of that. Utah is $90+ Million, New Mexico $40 million. We have about 2 million less people than Arizona who's budget is $109 million.
The real hypocrisy with CPW is highlighted in the USFW data.
Colorado grosses more on hunting than states like WI, TX, and PA that sell more than 3X the total licenses.
CPW has a spending problem, not an income problem.
So is the hunting license purchase just a ploy to tap into more Pittman-Robertson funds? Gives the impression that there will be a lot more small game hunters when in fact there will not be.
I can see raising the fees for tags, points, etc. and even support having to buy a Habitat or Conservation stamp (as long as those funds are used to conserve the big game you are applying for). I just do not see the logic in having to buy a hunting license when you may not get to actually hunt for 10 years or more. Just increase the price of the Habitat stamp or whatever.
I think the fees for the 3 will weed out the guys who aren’t serious and just put in because it only cost $3 why not. But it is also hard to pay money for a weighted point that doesn’t mean a thing. Atleast for people like me. Not a rich guy. Just blue collar.
The CPW seems to be running circles around themselves (and hunters) trying to generate more money. Many of their decisions seems to be based around $ rather than sound management. As an example....what % of the habitat stamp actually goes towards on the ground wildlife habitat improvement projects? Many of the state wildlife areas and winter ranges are a complete disaster with invasive weeds. Funding for these projects has actually been cut! What the heck is a habitat stamp supposed to do?
As mentioned above, being required to purchase a fishing or small game license in order to apply for big game tags. I would guess a large chunk of nonres never fish or hunt small game in Colo with these licenses? Why not cut to the chase!
The CPW is really exposing their true identity with these decisions. Hunters that flip the bill are pretty much steaming from some of the careless decisions that are senseless. Hopefully the CPW keeps wildlife and hunters in mind when making future decisions!
Not sure but I think the habitat stamp money goes mostly toward conservation easements (saving habitat) so the big ranches don’t have to pay as much in property taxes. They can use that money saved to buy more no trespassing signs to keep us out.
I know of several ranchers that have gotten huge cash payments ( millions of dollars!) as well as reductions in taxes here in NW CO for conservation easements from our habitat stamp funds. There is NO stipulation that the public can hunt on their land even with the huge amounts of public cash payouts. The Habitat Stamp program is another rancher welfare program that is paid for by all hunters and fishermen (read “tax”)with no return.
The small game license is valid 4/1 thru 3/31. The big game application deadline is just after 4/1. Do you only have to have a valid small game license at the time of application? If so, you would be able to get 2 years of applications with one small game license similar to Utah.
Nick, I believe you have to have a license from “the previous year”. So, no you wouldn’t be able to sneak the 2 for 1 as you can in Utah
Let's just go to all auction tags, for everything....supply and demand. That's what its coming to anyway. The over Monetization of hunting will destroy us and the north American model of conservation. It maybe already too late.
Will, what if I applied on 4/1 and didn't have a small game license from last season?
I believe "Previous year" would end on December 31[calendar year] , not when you apply or when the Small Game license expired.
Here's how it was phrased in the press release: "A qualifying hunting license purchase valid between April 1, 2019 - March 31, 2020 must be made in order to apply for any big game license."
I assume they'll let you buy it well before 4/1/19. I truly doubt they'd allow any loopholes.
Now Peco I would be against that for the reason I stated...pure auction only for the rich get the tags....a number like $1500...they get their dough....and they have to get their and anybody that is serious can come up with it if they want it enough... Would I rather pay $250 for a tag HELLLLLL yeah would I pay $1500 for a big three tag I CAN ACTUALLY GET HELL YEAH TIMES ! In my view that is cheap for something like that...and I'm not rich
Ted. Calm. Down.
Dont worry pure auction is coming. Its being greased by lottery systems that will contuine to squeeze the hell out of most hunters.
We just keep putting silk hat on a pig then complain its still a pig. Take CO away and insert about every state by Idaho, NM and Alaska. And dont worry they will more likely move in the wrong direction before the others move in the right direction
No thanks to paying $250 or $1500 for a point that is just a lottery chance
This is BS. Money game is all it is
I'm not excited and I said nothing about paying for a point and certainly wouldn't pay anything substantial for a Colo point... that would be the tag fee... Would you pay $1500 for a big three TAG??? I sure would...and if that was the tag fee the chances to get one would sky rocket...
I don't think the pure auction is coming other than a few special separated tags like for hunting group fund raisers...
It sure would be great if auction tags stay completely out of the system. Those tags are taken away from everyone in the draws! Take a look at the Utah auction tag system...it's a joke!
All this discussion, and yet no one has defined the problem, and therefore can not possibly propose a solution. And any bandaid measures will soon be ripped off.
There are simply too many people on this planet! Without addressing that, and I don't imagine it will ever be addressed, just get used to fewer and lower quality hunting opportunities.
I am way behind commenting on this.. But I think the change is going to make a big impact on the number of Big 3 apps.. I am coming at this as a Non Resident.. Last year it only went up because of the draw system and the fact it cost $3 to apply. $3 chance at a sheep sign me up.. I bet alot of the people who put in didnt even know about the 3 year weighted point period.
In the past you had to front the money to get a point and to apply but you basically got all your money back.. Except for a few bucks.. We will just say it was $100 give or take to apply for all 3.. Now with the new rules it is going to cost a non res $380 to apply for all 3. I think on the Non Res side we may see numbers go back below the 2017 mark.
I think you're right, but it's not going to go nearly all the way back to how it was. The NRs that have been fronting the money for a long time are going to be screwed in 2 years.
"I bet alot of the people who put in didnt even know about the 3 year weighted point period."
Can somebody please explain this,,, does this mean by "weighted" you have to wait a least 3 years and costs before even having a chance to draw?
Yes for rocky mountain bighorn sheep, mountain goat and moose you have to have 3 preference points before you are even in the drawing. After that you get a weighted point for each year you apply.
Lol. It's nice to see a few non residents finally ticked off at the ridiculous way the CPW works. Join the fight boys it's only gonna get worse from here. An interesting fact that I just learned but all funding for CPW comes from license fees, I assumed that some funding came from taxes, etc. But nope it's all licensing fees. So until the CPW fixes the spending problem, or changes legislation to include tax dollars, this is just the beginning of the ridiculousness. Follow the money, that's what it's all about dollars and cents.
Thanks Yellowjacket... So now it's gonna cost NR $1,675 to get into the first drawing and take 4 years... WOW...
Many have drawn cow moose tags with less than 3 PPs
Basically the first 3 points are preference points for the big 3. With so many applicants, there are very few tags that may go for 3 or less and those will be female tags.
At 4 years, you go in the pool with weighted points. You can draw at 3 preference points and 0 weighted points.
Ask some of us sitting on up to 18 weighted points how well that system works...
Have any of you guys ever traveled to other states, countys seen what fees are charged .Colo is behind for sure what they charge non-resident
Zbone, I don't know how you figured $1,675 but you only pay the preference point fee not the full license cost each year to get a point.
Yellowjacket I assume he's referring to the approximately 417.00 per year in fees that it will cost a NR to apply for the big 3. So then after four year's worth of apps, you'd be in the draw, having spent roughly the amount he cited.
Yes, I apply in every state that lets me for sheep and most of them for goat and moose.
These new fees bump Colorado up to the top for non refundable fees.
Applying for those species as a resident will now cost more per year than most states as a nonresident.
There are 608 Colorado Residents with Max Moose PPs.
There are 168 TOTAL hunt codes [incl Bulls & Cows]
Even if they drew the top tier, there would still be Pref Point creep, each and every year.
Wyo Archers pay extra to be a Archer . Idaho pay extra to be an Archer. Canada you got to pay all the fees to just to hunt as a non resident . Alaska going to have a guide to the hunt sheep and goats and big bears same as a Yukon . I guess I look at it for nonresident you got to play the resident rules
Sounds to me if i had say maybe 5 points for moose i would take my chances in the draw and would nt spend anymore money for the cpw to enhance parks in the cities where the antis hangout! Draws are all about adding money to the coffer. Unfortunately they have hunters by the short hairs.
Brad nailed it. It would take 4 years just to get through max points. How many people have 1 less than max? How many people have 2 less? When you have a very limited resource with 1000s, possibly, 10s of 1000s of people vying for it, you can’t make everyone happy and somebody is going to get “screwed”. In the system they have now, at least everyone has a chance.
In 2018, there were 40,955 Residents in the Moose PP game and 12,4332 Non Residents [ not incl any youth in either]
You can see the Moose Pref Point totals here - see link
Yeah, the NR moose applicant pool increased from a rate of 115 applicants per bull license available in '17, to 788 applicants per license available in '18. Even the resident
draw pool doubled in size. We'll never get back down to the 2017 applicant pool size, regardless of fee increases. That's a pipe dream. For those with a lot of years invested, just pray that you draw this year or next!
It went from less than 26k applicants in 2017 to 59k applicants in 2018 when they eliminated fronting the cost of the tag to apply. I suspect it will drop some with the $50/$100 pp fee they're dingin us with now. They did it in such a way that some welcomed paying for a pp in hopes of lessening the pool and improving their odds. Creating a whole new revenue stream for themselves.
I think the price change would make majority of guys who jumped in last year drop out. They obviously only jumped in because it was cheap. It was cheaper to front 2k and get it back in a few months than paying only pp fee. I have 7 points already and am still debating buying points or just applying ever year with what I have and never buying another point
808 I don’t believe you have the option of freezing your points and not paying the PP fee, but still being in the lottery. Has anybody confirmed this?
808 I am pretty sure that you will not have that option for Colorado. The application fees and point fees will be mandatory for application for the big 3.
In Wyoming, you can still opt out of purchasing points, but that is not the way I read Colorado's process.
Well I decided after I had my Bighorn tag In CO I would stay out of that to give you all a better chance. I only put in for deer in CO now of the preference point species. Not sure how I ended up with 13 but do need to figure out what to do with them so I can go every few years after I use them up. That will be enough for me and should be bugetable.
Knowing the direction the department has been headed for awhile, I seriously doubt they will vote to let you opt out of the pp fee.
Agreed. Here’s another way to looo at it...in 10 years, who’s more deserving...the guy that has 500 dollars in PP or the guy that draws with 10 and has 30 dollars in because he had 10 points prior to the change and has opted out. Money vs. tenure, Easy to argue either side.
Dang I guess I really gotta think about what to do. Seeing how many drop out will help make that decision
As a NR--I'm out as soon as possible. Luckily I drew my sheep tag a couple years ago or that decision would be a little harder. As soon as I know I can dedicate the month of September, I am going to cash in whatever unit(s) I can simultaneously cash my elk/deer points- giving myself 2 weeks to hunt each. I may have to wait another year or three until I can make that happen, but I won't wait any longer than necessary. I may stay in the antelope game for an extra year to cash in my antelope points. After that, I am probably out of hunting in CO forever. This is a shame, because I had always planned on hunting with OTC or low point units after full retirement, but by that time there may not be such a thing. Bummed out!
Yeah Yellowjacket, sticksender has my theory of thought - Was multipling the $418.75 by 4, in Trial153 opening thread... So is that not correct?