Moultrie Products
CO New preference point fees
Wild Sheep
Contributors to this thread:
Trial153 20-Nov-18
Quinn @work 20-Nov-18
YZF-88 20-Nov-18
IdyllwildArcher 20-Nov-18
Rock 20-Nov-18
IdyllwildArcher 20-Nov-18
otcWill 20-Nov-18
cnelk 20-Nov-18
Ucsdryder 20-Nov-18
Treeline 20-Nov-18
Treeline 20-Nov-18
Trial153 20-Nov-18
Fish 20-Nov-18
Trial153 20-Nov-18
Ucsdryder 20-Nov-18
Capra 20-Nov-18
cnelk 20-Nov-18
Treeline 20-Nov-18
Mathewshootrphone 21-Nov-18
pav 21-Nov-18
sticksender 21-Nov-18
elkstabber 21-Nov-18
DonVathome 21-Nov-18
Trial153 21-Nov-18
Ucsdryder 21-Nov-18
Glunt@work 21-Nov-18
Capra 21-Nov-18
Treeline 21-Nov-18
Adventurewriter 21-Nov-18
wifishkiller 21-Nov-18
Capra 22-Nov-18
IdyllwildArcher 22-Nov-18
Treeline 22-Nov-18
BOWUNTR 23-Nov-18
Wishedhead 23-Nov-18
Capra 23-Nov-18
cnelk 23-Nov-18
sticksender 23-Nov-18
PECO 23-Nov-18
NvaGvUp 23-Nov-18
txhunter58 23-Nov-18
Dirk Diggler 23-Nov-18
sticksender 23-Nov-18
Wishedhead 23-Nov-18
Glunt@work 23-Nov-18
Treeline 24-Nov-18
marktm250 24-Nov-18
Ermine 24-Nov-18
Jims 24-Nov-18
kadbow 24-Nov-18
Treeline 24-Nov-18
midwest 25-Nov-18
otcWill 25-Nov-18
Trial153 25-Nov-18
midwest 25-Nov-18
cnelk 25-Nov-18
sticksender 25-Nov-18
Adventurewriter 25-Nov-18
midwest 25-Nov-18
Trial153 25-Nov-18
Ermine 25-Nov-18
WV Mountaineer 25-Nov-18
Adventurewriter 25-Nov-18
Jims 25-Nov-18
Ziek 26-Nov-18
From: Trial153
20-Nov-18
For a NR to apply for Sheep, Goat and Moose in Colorado in 2019, this will be the costs:

$80 Small Game License

$1.50 ????Wildlife Education Fee

$0.25 Search and Rescue

$10 Habitat Stamp

$27 (9 x 3) App Fees

$300 (100 x 3) PP Fees

--------------------------

$418.75

From: Quinn @work
20-Nov-18
It’s unfortunate that this is the fix to the mess they created by not charging the full license fee upfront last year.

From: YZF-88
20-Nov-18
Are they going to jack up the deer and elk prices too?

20-Nov-18
So DBHS is still going to be one in 2000 odds. And $100 for a point? Really? Something of, essentially zero value costs $100? I really wonder if last year was just a ruse to get everyone on board before they raised the point costs.

From: Rock
20-Nov-18
Idy, There are no preference points for DBHS, so I do not think you will have the extra $100 fee added to that application. Plus I believe the preference point fee is optional for all spiecies, you pay it only if you want a point is my understanding.

20-Nov-18
I realize that Rock, that's why I said it's still gonna be one in 2000 odds. Odds used to be around 1 in 300.

From: otcWill
20-Nov-18
I'm still unclear as to whether they'll charge for weighted points?

From: cnelk
20-Nov-18
I believe Desert Bighorn will stay random draw

The 'Big 3' are Moose,Goat, Bighorn

From: Ucsdryder
20-Nov-18
How does this fix the resident influx of new applicants?

From: Treeline
20-Nov-18
It doesn’t UCS.

From: Treeline
20-Nov-18
Looks like NR tag fees will stay the same (except for bear that drops from $350 to $100).

All Resident tags all go up - Deer, elk, antelope, bear, mountain lion, small game, fishing by $8 and the big 3 by $50 each.

Show $50 R and $100 NR preference point fee for each of the big 3. Not sure if it applies to the weighted points.

From: Trial153
20-Nov-18
The in increesed costs will be somewhat of a deterrent for NR applications. Last year was an anomaly however I think when you compare this coming year to previous year you will see a decline.

From: Fish
20-Nov-18
Hopefully they will fixed how the draw works... To squaring points or something that actually favor guys that have been building points for years.

From: Trial153
20-Nov-18
Further something to keep in mind is that a license is now required for deer and elk draws as well.

From: Ucsdryder
20-Nov-18
Fish, in 5 years a guy could argue his 50 or 100 dollars a point for 5 years is worth more than your 3 dollars a point for 20 years. Just something to consider.

From: Capra
20-Nov-18
Is it just me or did they manage to screw up one of the only draws that made sense.

Sure there is the whole conversation about your random number when viewed in a mirror BUT

It made sense , send in your money fill out an application and cross your fingers.

This deal was made strictly to create revenue, time will tell what it actually does.

From: cnelk
20-Nov-18
To clarify:

Previously, an annual fishing license was sufficient to be eligible not to be charged extra per species for the draw.

Under the new proposal, an annual small game license, Turkey license or big game license or combo fish/small game (residents only) is required.

From: Treeline
20-Nov-18
So the point fee for elk and deer goes away under this change.

21-Nov-18
Also it's up for discussion it's going to have five points to get to draw instead of three

From: pav
21-Nov-18
Did the NR small game annual license fee increase to $80 for 2019? I'm seeing a cost of $56 for 2018 in the brochure. Thought I read somewhere the NR license was not being increased for 2019?

From: sticksender
21-Nov-18
Yes 80.00 (NR), and is now a mandatory purchase in order to apply for any big game tag. Here's a list of the new fees:

https://cpw.state.co.us/aboutus/Pages/Our-Story-2019-Changes.aspx

Like Trial posted above, the non-refundable fees will now total about 417.00 (NR) when applying for the "Big-3" (Sheep & Moose & Goat). This year that total was 19.00.

From: elkstabber
21-Nov-18

elkstabber's embedded Photo
elkstabber's embedded Photo
Thanks for the info. There is no doubt that CO is milking their cash cow, the NRs.

The only positive (?) is that the draw odds will return closer to what they were. By that I mean lots of people applied when it only cost $19 and now many will back out with costs of $417.

From: DonVathome
21-Nov-18
WY set the standard and other states will follow. It is a no brainer. Sad but true

From: Trial153
21-Nov-18
It's about money nothing more. Odds wont get any better in any realistic measurable sense.

This doenst fix anything, not even sure if it stems the bleeding..

Long term the only system that has some semblance of fairness and long term viability Idaho. Till we place total multistate cap individual cap on applications that is almost totally random we are doing nothing but building on a house of cards.

From: Ucsdryder
21-Nov-18
Seems so simple. There are so many people looking for so few tags. Make it totally random with no points. Charge for the draw so dfw still gets their cut and move on.

From: Glunt@work
21-Nov-18
That's simple unless you have been applying and waiting in line for 20 years

From: Capra
21-Nov-18
That really is the problem, Some of us have been at this for quite a while.

I remember the years when I was in college, It was a big deal for me to scrape up the cash to apply. BUT I always dreamed of a BH tag so I maxed out credit cards and did things I'm embarrassed of to pull it off. Even when I was poor I thought it was fair.

Sure CO never promised us anything, but what a slap in the face this is. I'm so close today but so far away when the new batch hits the pool. I wish I thought $400 in fees would change things but I think there will be enough with 1 point to collapse the system for people in line with 7 or more.

If you look at the drawing table it is surprising to me how many tags are drawn with 6-7 points. Can you imagine what it will look like when the 1 pointers hit.

From: Treeline
21-Nov-18
20 years! Short timers! And not just in Colorado! Beginning to regret starting to try and play these idiotic games...

21-Nov-18
I wish they would raise the big three resident fee to $1500 per....it is enough to weed out the "hey what the heckers" and not too much that really anybody that wanted it as bad as it should be wanted could come up with it

From: wifishkiller
21-Nov-18
It’s still better then what it was this year, but leaves plenty of room for improvement. I wish they would look closer to the AZ system!

From: Capra
22-Nov-18
I was curious so I looked up the numbers, Sorry If this has already been posted and discussed.

New Applicants with 0 points. not counting Youth.

2017 Residents 1986 Non-Residents 499 2018 Residents 10,159 Non-Residents 8,514

Total applicants of all point levels: Residents 27,961 Non-Residents 15,709

I guess we will see how may stay in the pool this year.

22-Nov-18
There's a few glaring problems:

1. It does nothing for the ruined Resident pool. They still need to do something about that. If I were a CO resident who'd been putting in for the big 3 for years, I'd be furious.

2. For NRs, I bet it'll help some, but not much, to solve the problem for RMBHS, RMG, and Moose, but it will not solve the problem that was made to the deer, elk, and DBHS draws. In fact, DBHS odds will be made even worse by this change as the NRs fleeing the increased costs of the RMBHS draw will flock to the DBHS tag which was barely a reasonable draw before when it was in the 1 in 300 range. Now at worse than 1 in 2000 and climbing, it's a complete crap shoot and the NRs putting in for elk and deer draws, which will now continue to explode as there's no PP fee for them, will continue to destroy the DBHS draw.

After I cash out my elk/deer points next year in CO and seeing that I've already shot a goat in AK, I'm seriously considering just leaving the CO draw altogether. The lower tier elk/deer draws are just going to get hammered.

From: Treeline
22-Nov-18
Very good synopsis, Ike. Sad how things are going here in CO for sure.

From: BOWUNTR
23-Nov-18
This is a complete mess.... Ed F

From: Wishedhead
23-Nov-18

Wishedhead's embedded Photo
Wishedhead's embedded Photo
I’m one of the nr guys that has diligently loaned the co parks and wildlife my fee for almost 15 years. Just curious what you guys think- How many year one types will drop out this year because of the fee hike? 1/2? Man I’ve finally got some good places to go chase the big three- and I get the rug pulled from me. For now I’m in. But much more than this increase I’m gonna have to take my toys and go home

From: Capra
23-Nov-18
Wishedhead- This sentiment is becoming more common. Those of us who have been at this for the long haul actually understand how long the odds are. I'm ashamed of how many points I have scattered across the west and how few permits I a have drawn AND I have actually drawn some.

I agree that the deer and elk are the big loosers, My fall used to be based on my 1 point deer permits. Who knows how that will play out.

From: cnelk
23-Nov-18
Not sure why DEER is this conversation. With the $3 app fee in 2018, there was only an increase of 2580 applicants - or about 5%.

From: sticksender
23-Nov-18
I think the correction in Big-3 app numbers for 2019 will be large, due to the increased fees. But we'll never get back down to the applicant pool size of pre-2018. I don't see much change in Deer/Elk draw odds going forward. But I wouldn't be surprised to see point fees for those species coming in the future.

From: PECO
23-Nov-18
"I wish they would raise the big three resident fee to $1500 per...." Why stop there? Let's just auction the big 3 every year. Keep this attitude up, someone has more money than you do, and guess what, they may not be as serious as you.

From: NvaGvUp
23-Nov-18
My odds of drawing a sheep tag in CO will go up.

Way up!

If, that is, I decide to keep playing the game.

From: txhunter58
23-Nov-18
Ok, I see where "application fee" has gone from $3 to $7 for residents and $3 to $9 for NRs.

Also, PP fees for Sheep, goat, moose has gone to $50/$100 res/NR.

But what will the preference point fee for elk and deer be? I don't ever pay them anyway, because I always have a big game tag, but know some that will pay them.

From: Dirk Diggler
23-Nov-18
TX the thing is it doesnt matter if you held a license the year before or not for a pp for the big 3. You want one you pay $50. It'll be comin for the other four species soon. Mark my words.

From: sticksender
23-Nov-18
txhunter, it will no longer matter what license you had the prior year. Starting next year, in order to apply for ANY SPECIES of limited big game license, you will be required to first purchase an annual small game hunting license, or a turkey license, or a fish/hunt combo license (only residents may purchase the latter). Cheapest route to satisfy this annual requirement for a NR will be the 80.00 small game license. There's no pp fee (yet) for Elk, Deer, Pronghorn, or Bear.

So, for an example, if you apply only for elk and deer, it will cost you (as a NR)....80.00 license fee, plus the 10.00 habitat stamp, plus the 9.00 fee for each app, for a total of 108.00. Same price regardless whether you apply for points only, or apply for actual hunt codes.

If you then want to add any of the big-3 apps, tack on another 109.00 per species for each of those (NR).

From: Wishedhead
23-Nov-18
If thier cash strapped so bad why don’t they pull some money from the states dope fund

From: Glunt@work
23-Nov-18
We had a $17 million dollar surplus last year (parks and wildlife). Wildlife side of the budget is about $140 million.

We have a lot bigger human population but about the same wildlife species and state size as Wyoming who's budget is about 1/2 of that. Utah is $90+ Million, New Mexico $40 million. We have about 2 million less people than Arizona who's budget is $109 million.

From: Treeline
24-Nov-18

Treeline's Link
The real hypocrisy with CPW is highlighted in the USFW data.

Colorado grosses more on hunting than states like WI, TX, and PA that sell more than 3X the total licenses.

CPW has a spending problem, not an income problem.

From: marktm250
24-Nov-18
So is the hunting license purchase just a ploy to tap into more Pittman-Robertson funds? Gives the impression that there will be a lot more small game hunters when in fact there will not be.

I can see raising the fees for tags, points, etc. and even support having to buy a Habitat or Conservation stamp (as long as those funds are used to conserve the big game you are applying for). I just do not see the logic in having to buy a hunting license when you may not get to actually hunt for 10 years or more. Just increase the price of the Habitat stamp or whatever.

From: Ermine
24-Nov-18
I think the fees for the 3 will weed out the guys who aren’t serious and just put in because it only cost $3 why not. But it is also hard to pay money for a weighted point that doesn’t mean a thing. Atleast for people like me. Not a rich guy. Just blue collar.

From: Jims
24-Nov-18
The CPW seems to be running circles around themselves (and hunters) trying to generate more money. Many of their decisions seems to be based around $ rather than sound management. As an example....what % of the habitat stamp actually goes towards on the ground wildlife habitat improvement projects? Many of the state wildlife areas and winter ranges are a complete disaster with invasive weeds. Funding for these projects has actually been cut! What the heck is a habitat stamp supposed to do?

As mentioned above, being required to purchase a fishing or small game license in order to apply for big game tags. I would guess a large chunk of nonres never fish or hunt small game in Colo with these licenses? Why not cut to the chase!

The CPW is really exposing their true identity with these decisions. Hunters that flip the bill are pretty much steaming from some of the careless decisions that are senseless. Hopefully the CPW keeps wildlife and hunters in mind when making future decisions!

From: kadbow
24-Nov-18
Not sure but I think the habitat stamp money goes mostly toward conservation easements (saving habitat) so the big ranches don’t have to pay as much in property taxes. They can use that money saved to buy more no trespassing signs to keep us out.

From: Treeline
24-Nov-18
I know of several ranchers that have gotten huge cash payments ( millions of dollars!) as well as reductions in taxes here in NW CO for conservation easements from our habitat stamp funds. There is NO stipulation that the public can hunt on their land even with the huge amounts of public cash payouts. The Habitat Stamp program is another rancher welfare program that is paid for by all hunters and fishermen (read “tax”)with no return.

From: midwest
25-Nov-18
The small game license is valid 4/1 thru 3/31. The big game application deadline is just after 4/1. Do you only have to have a valid small game license at the time of application? If so, you would be able to get 2 years of applications with one small game license similar to Utah.

From: otcWill
25-Nov-18
Nick, I believe you have to have a license from “the previous year”. So, no you wouldn’t be able to sneak the 2 for 1 as you can in Utah

From: Trial153
25-Nov-18
Let's just go to all auction tags, for everything....supply and demand. That's what its coming to anyway. The over Monetization of hunting will destroy us and the north American model of conservation. It maybe already too late.

From: midwest
25-Nov-18
Will, what if I applied on 4/1 and didn't have a small game license from last season?

From: cnelk
25-Nov-18
I believe "Previous year" would end on December 31[calendar year] , not when you apply or when the Small Game license expired.

From: sticksender
25-Nov-18
Here's how it was phrased in the press release: "A qualifying hunting license purchase valid between April 1, 2019 - March 31, 2020 must be made in order to apply for any big game license."

I assume they'll let you buy it well before 4/1/19. I truly doubt they'd allow any loopholes.

25-Nov-18
Now Peco I would be against that for the reason I stated...pure auction only for the rich get the tags....a number like $1500...they get their dough....and they have to get their and anybody that is serious can come up with it if they want it enough... Would I rather pay $250 for a tag HELLLLLL yeah would I pay $1500 for a big three tag I CAN ACTUALLY GET HELL YEAH TIMES ! In my view that is cheap for something like that...and I'm not rich

From: midwest
25-Nov-18

From: Trial153
25-Nov-18
Ted. Calm. Down.

Dont worry pure auction is coming. Its being greased by lottery systems that will contuine to squeeze the hell out of most hunters.

We just keep putting silk hat on a pig then complain its still a pig. Take CO away and insert about every state by Idaho, NM and Alaska. And dont worry they will more likely move in the wrong direction before the others move in the right direction

From: Ermine
25-Nov-18
No thanks to paying $250 or $1500 for a point that is just a lottery chance

25-Nov-18
This is BS. Money game is all it is

25-Nov-18
I'm not excited and I said nothing about paying for a point and certainly wouldn't pay anything substantial for a Colo point... that would be the tag fee... Would you pay $1500 for a big three TAG??? I sure would...and if that was the tag fee the chances to get one would sky rocket...

I don't think the pure auction is coming other than a few special separated tags like for hunting group fund raisers...

From: Jims
25-Nov-18
It sure would be great if auction tags stay completely out of the system. Those tags are taken away from everyone in the draws! Take a look at the Utah auction tag system...it's a joke!

From: Ziek
26-Nov-18
All this discussion, and yet no one has defined the problem, and therefore can not possibly propose a solution. And any bandaid measures will soon be ripped off.

There are simply too many people on this planet! Without addressing that, and I don't imagine it will ever be addressed, just get used to fewer and lower quality hunting opportunities.

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