Future of elk in southwest Colorado in j
Elk
What do you guys think of this article. Im wondering if anyone has any ideas on why half of the elk calfs would die off with in there frost six months? Would it be predation? There seems to be a lot of cat and and for sure bear in this area. Some spots I find more bear sign then deer or elk.
I have read and talked to other hunters in this general area and it seems like everyone has been saying population numbers have been on the decline. Its to bad the government officials are slow to react.
Here is a link to the article,
https://www.thestate.com/news/article221955940.html
I noticed in the article it said the herds in the northern part of the state were doing just fine, not having this problem. But earlier this year there was a thread about the same thing happening in the Eagle Valley.
Throughout that article it seemed pretty clear to me when they quickly stated it's not predators or disease, it's hunters. Their lack of science/research really doesn't surprise me though. Here's their conclusion, it can't be disease or predators that has caused this sudden downturn, it must be hunters doing the unthinkable - disrupting the breeding pattern of the elk. So they're telling me back 15-20 years ago we didn't hunt elk during the rut. Come on people! While I don't dispute the fact that there are more hunters pressuring the elk, it just seems a little disingenuous to push it all on them. Game and Fish allowing too many cows to be killed off and now calf mortality are their 2 issues. Will be interesting to see if anything changes or they just continue on.
Wait till they reintroduce the wolf there, that ought to help the problem.
I imagine Montana and Idaho will see a big influx of hunters if Colorado reduces tags there - and once they go to Montana or Idaho, I doubt Colorado gets them back :-) --Mitch
The article acts like cows come into heat and are not bred because of hunting pressure. But earlier in the article it says 90 percent of cows have calves. Hunting pressure does not stop breeding. It hints that global warming is delaying breeding. What a crock! Daylight determines estrus and breeding. Bring back bear and mountain lion hunting with hounds and bait hunting. Bring down predator populations to levels in the 90's and you will have more elk like you did in the 90's. But what do I know I am from Michigan.
It's always easiest to blame the law abiding, license buying hunter than face the real culprit(s), especially when you are guaranteed a paycheck regardless of anything productive done.
Joe hunter, you are on the right track.
One thing to be aware of is that Durango is a very liberal area. They are not full on anti hunting, but close. There is heavy anti-predator hunting sentiment in that area.
Numerous studies in Colorado and other states have shown that predators like black bears and lions can have a significant impact on fawn/calf survival. Recent studies in the Peiance Basin where our deer herds have continued to struggle to come back even with significant cuts in tag numbers have pointed directly at bears, lions and coyotes preying on the fawns and calves.
Unfortunately, politics in Colorado drive very poor decisions on wildlife management and the massive increases in population have primarily been in urban areas. The huge urban population increases are typically not hunters. Predator hunting and control has been severely limited in the last 20+ years in the state due to very loud animal rights groups protesting at CPW meetings. Additionally, there are very loud groups continually clamoring to bring wolves into the mix.
As a result, predator numbers have significantly increased and are having greater and greater impacts on our game herds.
The impacts of predators are even more pronounced when the populations have been reduced by very liberal cow and doe tags.
Joehunter X2 In a nutshell!
ElkNut/Paul
Hunted unit 70 this fall. I've never seen so many bear in my life. Saw bear every single day we hunted.......some days as high as 6 bear. Can't imagine the numbers of calves killed each year by bear.
What a terribly written article. I hunted that area heavily during the "heyday" and even then I didn`t experience prolific elk numbers. In fact the bulls we hunted rarely even bugled like in other areas. When Mule deer tags went to a draw the forests practically emptied. The forest roads used to be filled with campers, RV`s and tents in every turn out area. Then in a matter of years.....zip. So I don`t buy the "more hunters" as the 2 archery seasons coincide. How do you write an article about calves dying but never state what they are dying from....predators....disease....Gold King Mine disaster....what?
I see that nonresident bear permit price has been reduced from $350 to $100. I wonder if CPW did this as a quiet way to increase bear harvest. It will no doubt induce more of the nonresident elk/deer hunters to have a bear tag in their pocket. In the past I wouldn't spend $350 on the off chance I would encounter a bear but $100 is more palatable.
Bears would be my guess. Southwest portion of the state has tons of bears.
Terrible article and I am disappointed in their choice of local hunters to interview. Not the first time with the same hunter.
i dont guess the game officials realize that elk can and do breed at night also when there is no hunting pressure.
I live and hunt in sw Colorado, and see the low numbers of elk. And when a lot of elk get pushed onto private by the third week of September by bow hunters, we have issues. Units 77/78 are some if the hardest hit by non resident hunters. Bow hunter numbers are extremely high during archery, second and third seasons. Local DOW officers have been talking low elk numbers for several years because of the sever winters and heavy early snow falls in 09 through 2016. Winter kill has been very high.
No one wants to believe low elk numbers, several will post or quote Parks elk numbers. I've had this argument on Facebook now for two weeks. Most don't understand the numbers are estimates of what Parks believe. We haven't had elk counting in since 08. The major elk herd, the Lake Capote herd, will be believed to be shot out in five to eight years. This came from local DOW officers the wildlife biologist in Durango.
Argue all you want, I live here, and know how bad out numbers are. Local DOW officers know, and yet the Comissioners do nothing.
Our rut here gets later and later and later. Bulls were still bugling and looking for cows in November. Our rut is now in full swing in late October. The comment about hunting elk in the rut 20 years ago, well, we never had the high hunter numbers like we have now. Non residents pour into these units, and DOW brings in two extra wardens now to help with the high number of bowhunters. And a lot of elk are pushed into private or into the developments by the middle of September. And yes, some ranchers do try to chase the elk off, several times.
I don`t think anyone is arguing that the numbers may be down....what they are arguing is the reason. That article was completely lame and offered up nonsensical reasons. They said elk were dying off....not referring to lower harvest numbers due to elk being pushed. At least you gave a reason...."winter kill".....cool.
Now seeing how you live their what else do you think can be the reason....bears...disease. I love the San Juan and always overnight in Durango....and am planning on going back.
Buglmin, Is there any scientific research to back up your claims that the elk are breeding later in the year then normal? I hear this a lot in Michigan too and every fetus study (aging fetus on road killed deer in the spring) done on whitetails shows that the peek breeding is the same every year no matter how hot it is, how cold it is, and what the moon is doing or any other hunter cited issue. Michigan pressure on whitetails is a lot more then what is on elk in Colorado. I have to laugh when you complain about a measly 40+k archery hunters spread over the insane amount of public lands you have. We have 300k plus archery hunters and it doesnt affect the rut.
I have just started trying to dig deeper into why the calf recruitment rates are low. It would seem if this problem has been around for a while why hasn't research been done? Or if has does anyone have any links to research?
Research in other parts of the state - Just north of there in the Uncompadre and on north of I-70 in the Pieance shows bears eat a lot more calves than the CPW has ever reported or believed.
When elk numbers were brought back from the brink and the recent population boom that has been curtailed by CPW, the biggest difference was the numbers of predators were much lower due to significant predator control efforts year round. There was spring bear baiting and running with hounds as well as trapping and much more liberal lion hunting.
The timing of major deer herd decreases followed by significant elk herd decreases lags the cessation of trapping, spring bear, and State funded predator control.
Our deer numbers dropped significantly and the whole state went to draw in the late 90’s or early 2000’s. Reductions in tags helped bounce the herds back but some areas with historically high deer numbers still have not recovered and keep dropping. The major factor is predators in many of those areas.
It is just politically incorrect for anyone to say it publicly.
That article is full of anti hunting digs. Hard for me to read something that shows bias towards hunters as the problem.
No, I have no scientific research. But have hunted these elk for over 40 years, and know things are changing. CDOW has done no game counting here since the early 2000's, when they used small helicopters. They elk population they post is an estimate of what they say we are supposed to have.
Hunters not being the problem? In one area, one outfitter killed 77 bulls the first, second and third season. In that one area, 182 bulls were killed as they migrated down through this area in three seasons. That's a lot of bulls. These where the ones checked by Fish and Game. And that's just one area in 77.
We have two Indian reservations around us. On one reservation, each family member is allowed to kill three elk apiece. And if they need more, they can get additional tags from the tribe. These guys don't start hunting elk till November, when the elk are pushed onto the reservation. These elk are hunted on the wintering range now, because the tribe bought three big ranches that the elk and mule deer migrate to. Hunters aren't a problem? With no way to control over the counter permits, hunters become a major problem.
Although the article is misguided, hunting is a bit of a problem in CO and less pressure could make the herd and everyone's hunting experience better. Bull age strata and bull:cow ratios are a bit on the ridiculous side in may CO units. The problem is that removing the hoards from CO will just send them to all the other states.
My comments about the article being bad doesn't mean I was dismissing that we have a hunter density/elk population issue.
Its the animal predators causing the impact. And, as usual, most of the CPW people I have talked to are blaming hunters and man related activities as the culprit.
Wake up gentlemen. This is an all out assault on hunting. With more lies and misinformation floating around then truths. We hunters are losing at very corner because anti's have figured out that you can't truly ban hunting until you reduce participation to the point that it is no longer represented. They chip away at it with campaigns against hound hunting bans, baiting bans,spring hunting bans, etc... The wildlife suffers a die off from "natural" mortality, then hunter participation suffers when less tags and opportunity's exists for us. It is a very deliberate cycle
Maybe someone here on BS should write a rebuttal to the article.
If it is a disrupted breading pattern why are 90% of cows having healthy calves????
Ridiculous and cnelk I have to agree - anti hunting.
Lol.... Not everything is anti hunting. Dave Peterson isn't an anti hunter. Another thing, everyone wants to blame predators. It's easy and you can't defend the numbers. Sure, coys are killing the calves, but funny how our mule deer population has seemed to explode will elk numbers drop. If predators were killing everything, we'd have low mule deer numbers also.
Has DonVathome or cnelk hunted 77/78? Have you guys been here through September and November? If not, how can you call anti hunters? The sw isn't like the area around Denver, Boulder, Golden areas. We don't have high liberal numbers, high anti hunting numbers. Say what you want, easy to holler anti hunters because you think everything against hunting.
I am not concluding this is happening in SW Colorado but may be of interest.
A four year study ,2011-2014 in the Bitterroot Valley of Montana: Researchers captured 286 elk calves over a three year period, --226 as neonates in the summer and 60 as 6 month olds in the winter. After analyzing their data the team found that mountain lions appeared to be the main predators of elk calves year around except in the first week of the calf's life when black bears proved to be the greater threat. "Mountain lions hadn't gotten much attention compared to wolves, and the hunting public tends to fixate upon wolves as if they're driving everything in the ecosystem from a depredation standpoint. It was not the case with elk calves in our study". Finally, managers may need to reduce adult female harvest of elk--------in less productive habitats for elk.
Interesting that mule deer numbers seem to be increasing down there. That does add to the mystery when there is a claim of 90% of the cows having calves with over 1/2 of the calves not making it past their first year. I do think that there needs to be limits on elk tags - particularly on NRs and that is a very popular area for NRs down there for sure. I also think that the CPW has gone overboard with cow tags down there and reducing cow tags will increase elk numbers pretty quickly. Additional predator control will also help the elk populations recover.
The thesis is that hunters cause the breeding to be delayed so that calves are born in May and June. The claim is that 50 percent of the calves die within six months. Therefore, they die before November and December. When does Winter kill calves in SW Colorado? So, apparently they are dying within the months of May, June, July, August, September, October, and then November and December. Why are they dying in July and August, for example? And not in the rest of Colorado? Logically, it has to be disease, feed, or predators. Given that the first too can easily be ruled in or out, which is the most likely of those three? In one sentence, the "terrestrial" biologist says, "It ain't predators." Oh, yea? Why not?
@buglmin
No I havent hunted 77/78 and have no plans to. But WFT does that have to do with it?
I havent read the article and probably wont, my statement above was directed to the Bowsite Keyboard Cowboys that effin bitch about everything and never do anything they bitch about.
Not sure about mule deer numbers exploding, when all I see the CPW says is the MD herd is still under objectives.
One experienced black bear could follow a heard and kill a bunch of calves as they are born during calving season. Multiply that by several hundred and you can see the issue. Also, with no hunting pressure on bears you have old experience killers that are very good at what they do! These are not bumbling garbage dump bears but adaptive skilled hunters. But then what do I know I am from Michigan. Here is a pick of one at the trial head (South Central Co) I hunted for several years. Just a little guy!
Re why deer aren't affected if it is predators: Do deer congregate in calving areas? Do bears learn to eat neonates? Is it easier to hang around elk calving and pick off calves hitting the ground than trying to find does giving birth? The Montana study nails it re when bears are involved -- the first week (as in during the birthing). I think the facts lead to a logical conclusion: If there are way more bears down there than in the 1990s, they are more likely the culprit, for the 50% death loss in calves before their six months birthdate, than hunters interrupting the rut. That's a different question than what should be done. Obviously, decreasing the harvesting of adult females has to be considered. But, imo, predators, have to be ruled out as part of the problem and possible solution, and the article certainly did not lay out the evidence for ruling them out.
I agree the article unfairly points at hunters as the reason for the decline. Predators would be my first guess as the reason for decline. That said, I think some may have misread/misinterpreted the article regarding calving success. It says about 90% of PREGNANT cows successfully give birth to healthy calves. It does not say 90% of cows get pregnant. Is there evidence that a lower percentage of cows is getting pregnant?
It seems to me the author, Jonathan Romeo, decided to take sides when writing this article. Most of it focused on the interviews with Dave Peterson and the other hunter(s). Very little was spent on the science and the studies the CPW is doing.
The hunters interviewed are the ones that blamed hunting pressure, but, IMO, early season hunting pressure has been on the increase for many years now and all over the state, not just in the SW.
CPW explained to me that, "we don't believe it is predation or disease because we have the same suite of predators and the same diseases (except Chronic Wasting Disease)" throughout the state.
The response I have gotten from CPW personnel is loss of habitat due to natural gas development.
Buglmin has very good point on the reservations hammering winter herds. Also I have archery hunted elk and bears in 77/78 the last couple years and the hunting pressure combined with the hikers and granola bunnies is more than I could even process. There are more people on usfs roads and wilderness than in pagosa or Durango on a summer weekend. Lota bears but way more people
Tramper, I would be interested in wether CPW thinks they have the same numbers of predators down there as other places -- not just the same suite. I guess I don't know what "suite of predators" means, but I assume it means the same types. Somewhere in this discussion someone wrote that the number of bears has dramatically increased. The loss of habitat due to natural gas development wasn't even sniffed at in the article. I think the conclusion is that it was a clickbait newspaper throwout piece that was not at all fair to hunters.
I remember him writing some anti-bear baiting and anti hound articles back then. He considered baiting and hounds as unethical.
Ok, I must have missed something - are we talking about population decline if the herd or calf mortality? If the later, and if 90% of the cows give birth then by definition they made it thru hunting season so seems that hunters are not affecting birth rate.
If half the calf’s are lost after birth, then unless hunters are increasing their take of calves then how could it be hunters increasing calf mortality?
So looking at 2017 harvest data for units 75, 751, 77, 771, and 78 there were 326 cows killed for all manner of take. There were 15 calves taken in those same units for all manner of take.
There just doesn't seem like according to the hunting statistics there is very much pressure on cow or calf elk in these areas. 15 calves for all 5 units doesn't very excessive to me at all. 326 cows out of 19k animals doesnt seem like much to me. I would think more would die naturally per year than this.
Here are hunt numbers and bull cow ratios for units 75, 751, 77, 771, and 78. 19,030 elk post hunt elk numbers and 20 bull elk to 100 cow elk. Do they count spikes and calf males in this count? Does anyone know? Based on this I dont see how hunters are harvesting enough animals to make a difference. I would think its very doubt full hunters are effecting the rut to make calves born later. I have never read that hunting pressure does this to any type of cervids hunted in the US.
So far the radio collar studies I have read are in their infant stages. It seems Colorado is winging it since they are having issues with radio collars falling off animals??? I don't see how this is something that could even happen. There are so many states that have this technology down pat. Maybe Colorado Bios need to go to Wyoming to learn how to put a radio collar on and how they should be made?
part of the issue is that count was probably done a while ago and they don't have accurate numbers. Also how do they know exactly how many cows were killed. There is no mandatory reporting and myself and my circle of friends haven't been contacted for a harvest survey in I couldn't tell you how long.
No mention of the severe drought in southern Colorado over the last several years depleting the available food to support the herds either.
