I have no idea how many animals I have killed with firearms. Quite a few. I enjoy hunting with a muzzleloader and a centerfire rifle. With two exceptions, I have never hunted behind a high-fence. Both times, I was “ordered” to do so. I killed an axis deer and a sheep of some sort-both with a compound.
I was a rabid exclusionist. If it wasn’t a bow kill, it didn’t count. When TN first considered legalizing crossbows, I testified before the committee AGAINST legalizing them, even for the disabled. I had never shot one. Three-years later, I did…and realized what freakin cloaca, I was. They were not an advantage, they were a handicap. That was about 30-years ago.
For two decades-20-years-I got paid to hunt and write about it. I was a trophy hunter. Not like today’s. No food plots, no trail cameras, no supplemental feeding. I scouted, hung stands, hunted, recorded the hunts-misses and screwups. About 70% was on public land.
I have, as an estimate, 19-animals that meet or exceed minimum requirements for one record book or another. I have never sent one in. My records are on my walls. A mention in a book means nothing to me. In the last 12 years, I have killed nothing that would interest anyone on here. Lots of does, couple small bucks-cause they pissed me off.
A few days ago, I was in a meeting of biologists, hunters and press. It made me want to puke. The main topic of discussion was, “Bigger antlers.” Not more hunters. Not more access. Not better education. I walked out, as did three independent biologist.
Better give that some thought. The savior of hunting is not in antlers. It is the young. Everything we do to make THEIR success more difficult is a hindrance. It is time, past time, to lay aside the selfish mentality of the bowhunter, scrap the dividing line of vertical cross or firearm and unite as hunters. Not bowhunters, crossbow hunters, gun hunters…just hunters. Or we are in far more serious trouble than you know.
I predict, in the next 18-months, 14-states will issue statements that will make you gag. And we, you and I and all the hunters out there, caused it. It is our fault…entirely.
that about sums it up
That is exactly how I got into hunting with a compound. Bought everything the night before went out the next day and killed a deer. Killed one more the next week.......didn't find out until much later that it was impossible.
Cloaca, then why mention it here, ah, Subconsciously you wanna be in da BOOK and not just another cloaca.
I don't usually read this site as I hang out on the LW. I will say one thing about hitting with a crossbow at 60 yards. I've shot them and 60 yards is a hell of a long shot, especially in the woods. Some guys with experience may hit a target well at that range, but I don't believe most guys could purchase one and be capable of that type of accuracy right out of the box. There is a lot more to it than cocking it and pulling the trigger. Those guys on Crossbownation probably could hit that well, but the average joe won't.
Don't get me wrong I like big racks as much as the next guy but if we can't fix our access issues we can't grow our sport. There are only so many elmer fudds we can cram on public land.
They know hunter numbers are dropping pretty quickly with the Boomer rolloff, and revenues will decrease accordingly. Think about this: What if some state game commissions started charging a trophy fee based upon minimum antler size, on top of the license fees, with mandatory check in of the antlers for measurement?
At least most states now offer early youth seasons (sure wish they had that in PA about 40 years ago!). That, along with education, increasing public game lands and enlisting the support of private land owners is about all they can do.
But maybe they see that is a formidable challenge and are going for the cash-grab of older non-resident hunters who will spend $$$ to come over and chase quality deer?
I truly believe in what he is saying....I am not happy with the direction some of these agencies are heading. I don`t know if it`s because the old school guys are retiring and the newer, younger college educated biologists and managers are taking over or what. But the winds of change are arriving and when they do it`s very hard to reverse them.
However, I agree that big antlers and “trophy” hunting will be a bad thing for the next generation. Since you mention numbers I thought I’d add mine. I just turned 30 and this year I reached 60 deer with a vertical bow, 56 of those with a traditional bow. I’ve yet to kill a pope and young buck although I’ve taken a few truly mature animals and a few more 3.5 plus.
You are correct in your point in my opinion
1: Big tent syndrome! Because I’m a bowhunter and our tradition and bow seasons matter
2: Trophy hunting for all the reasons you mentioned
That being said the tradition of bowhunting is dying because of a technologies onslaught and bows and crossbows and soon other bolt slinging weapons that lack every handicap bow seasons were built around.
Bowhunting isn’t hard anymore and that is truly sad
I read an article that had statistics showing that millennials (I’m smack dab in the middle of this generation) are nearly twice as likely to not use a crossbow and more than twice as likely to be against there full inclusion into bow seasons.
Young people don’t need it to be easier they need it to remain a challenge (I feel like I can say they because I’m getting older too lol)
I cut my teeth on small game. If it was not for squirrel hunting, I'd probably have given up on hunting as a kid. I hunted deer plenty but, as a youth, I hunted in "buck only" counties 99% of the time. I can tell you it is very disheartening for a young person to be repeatedly surrounded by does and not be able to kill one because "there are not enough does."
That stated, modern culture is too dissuasive and conflicting of hunting and the motivations that would naturally express themselves in an activity like hunting for game departments to mitigate with allowances and programs. Game departments do have an obligation to remove obstacles for young people and new hunter recruitment, imo, but culture will have to change, as well.
This year hunting over bait was allowed,so the perfect storm for debate and finger pointing.
The economic impact is already being felt with deer processors and frankly a lot of folk are just scared to eat them now.
This is not good......
Most State governments have move far away from deer management and into people management and those people are now hunting toward the exits for a myriad of reasons ......CWD is just another nail in the proverbial box.
I appreciate your guess, which makes sense.
John, you obviously have much more experience than I ever will, and that many here never will as well.
You have also taken some shots lately. Just me saying this, but I wish you would just be more direct about what you know or what you are predicting will happen. Then let's discuss it.
Lately it just seems like on a couple of posts your main purpose was to taunt fellow hunters on what you know and us dumb schmucks don't. I am a dummy, please spell it out. What are you predicting 14 states will announce?
Thanks.
From my neck of the woods, of Wis and the UP, I can assure you, there are plenty of hunters, including youth hunters...... I also realize that is not true everywhere.........
Game Depts and Hunting Magazine publications, have to be concerned, about revenue coming in................................................. For the life of me I do not know for instance how Bowhunter magazine, makes any money. I like that magazine, but can buy it for 80 percent off the store price. and its all about hunts they go on, which is not cheap etc, so where does all the money come from........ Game Depts are going to be down if not already, in revenue from license sales,,,,,,
I truly believe in what he is saying....I am not happy with the direction some of these agencies are heading. I don`t know if it`s because the old school guys are retiring and the newer, younger college educated biologists and managers are taking over or what. But the winds of change are arriving and when they do it`s very hard to reverse them. "
I am sure bowriter is a great guy if you met him but why tell everyone how awesome you are before you give your word of warning? Why not just give your word or warning and go from there?
.
Simple logic says every state has a different dynamic in terms of cultures, species, populations and so on. One state has too many deer and needs to expand the take. Another state has too few and might benefit from weapons restrictions which reduce the take while not reducing time afield. No two states will be identical. Each state would best benefit from tailoring deer and other big game management to achieve a compromise between the health of the species and the desire of the state's residents... and not just hunters.
Lastly in Ohio: I'm not certain, but I think the popularity of our archery season could very well be putting downward pressure on our gun seasons. Hunt the pre-rut and peak. Hunt in milder weather. Hunt when it's quiet. Hunt longer. Use your vacation to hunt the rut and work your job while the guns are banging away. Archery in all its forms is immensely popular here (you should see the nonresident rigs here the second week of November) and I don't see ANY chance the state will mess with that formula.
I agree each state is different.
Starting to think hunting popularity is already on the down side. Sure, demographics play a big role, but also wonder if it is to some extent a natural cycle.
I am seeing more and more small farms that were purchased for recreation up for sale in my area.
A local sporting goods store had them on sale in September, so I went and bought a Center Point basic model which came with a scope and 3 bolts. After being released from the step-down hospital facility and finally getting home, we got it set up and started sighting it in....I did all the rope cocking. Both being experienced firearms hunters as well as avid bowhunters, it didn't take long for him to be shooting X's at 20 and 35 yards. Although I wasn't keen to the idea, he wanted me to test shoot it so I at least knew how they functioned. My first shot at 20 was an X......my second shot at 35 on a Rinehart 3D turkey was a perfect kill....both bench rested. So then he wanted me to freehand one at 35 and I put it 2" away from the first one. From there we backed it up to 55 yards and both were within 3-4" of the aiming spot.....most certainly a killing shot on a deer. So those who claim there is no difference between a "vertical bow" and a "horizontal bow" are blowing smoke. After 40+ years of shooting bows......presently with a compound/sight/release due to draw shoulder issues from shooting hunting weight recurves for 30 years......I am still challenged by shooting a good group at 55 yards with my hunting bow setup. Give a newbie a compound and back them up to 55 yards and see how they do.......8^/
I fully recognize that Sloan was trying to make a point of sticking together and not allowing bowhunting to become a game of antler inches. Bit problem is that evil genie has already been let out of the bottle. Read virtually any bowhunting magazine.....watch virtually any "hunting" related TV programming......check out Youtube videos.....it is all about killing the biggest buck with hero photos and bragging rights. I've seen guys on other archery forums who rather sheepishly post about killing their first deer and it was "only a doe".....or "only a spike". The APR proponents are diligently working to infringe their hunting ideals on everyone else....as if we are foolish, selfish children who can't understand the big picture. I honestly feel bad for the fellow who posted above about his 15 year old passing smaller deer and looking down on those who fill their own tag in their own way. What makes him/you "right" and those who just want to hunt for enjoyment of the outdoors and filling a tag "wrong"??? TV???
All he had to say was something like: "IMHO, biologists discussing antler size, unless it is proven to improve herd/hunting quality (like in PA?), should not be the primary focus to perpetuate our hunting heritage given the changing demographics." And then simply reveal what he predicts these states are going to do.
He would be one of the best bow hunters in any deer camp in America,who cares if he hasn't stacked up a bunch of 160s.
Hope he continues to prod our gray matter with whatever as long as he wants.
The cryptic part is the prediction about the 14 states and their anticipated statements. Without any further elaboration....that is left dangling. Maybe that's intentional, maybe a loss of focus...I don't know.
If I interpreted BW's post correctly, I do think the marketing and/or emphasis of big antlers whether thru hunting shows, ads, QDMA, APR regs, B&C, P&Y, etc does blur the history and goals of what traditional hunting was for and about.
How to bring more people into hunting and the outdoors is a complicated discussion. I think there are cultural, economic and regulatory things that keep people from taking up hunting, fishing and the outdoors. Those are a whole new thread.
Anywho....that's my useless interpretation and 2 cents.
I cannot elaborate on the meeting and what was said and by whom. That was made quite clear before we started the discussion. I will say this. I am somewhat heartened at many of the posts on this thread.
I am now going to the hospital before I bleed to death. Coumadin is a killer.
Ha....so is Lovenox...good luck.
You can blame the youth of today, antlers, whatever you want. That's all bull*(&!! Just something to complain about. I know too many young people that are great individuals to ever blame them. People only blame antlers when they can't kill anything with them. They say people pursue antlers to stroke ego, when the irony is that their ego keeps them from admitting they can't make the sacrifices, or put in the time and work to do the same thing.
I partially blame urbanization and the mass exodus from rural America. But that's not all it is either.
The big tent idea, that hunters unite is a good idea. And one I agree with. I have nothing against rifles, scoped inline muzzleloaders, scoped crossbows, atlatls, compounds, recurves, guided missiles or armed drones. You wanna bait? I don't give a crap. Use a dog or a trail camera or a high fence or a food plot or a Rage! broadhead, or 40 guides to sit on an animal. . . . go right ahead.
But it's unreasonable to expect hunters to unite. It's just human nature. We are competitive, jealous, spiteful, egotistical things, us humans.
So instead of bitching and moaning, let's get real. We're never going to unite under one happy roof to protect hunting. Not gonna happen. There are verbal fistfights on this forum daily over the most trivial hunting things.
Crossbows are here to stay. Antlers and horns will carry the conversation. The antis will chip and chip and chip away.
Knowing this, what can we do to stem the tide? Or turn the tide?
I don't know the answer. But it's a worthwhile conversation
I am proud to say that I only try to kill mature deer. The bigger the antlers the better. When I was younger I just wanted to kill a deer. Then after I killed a bunch of em I wanted to kill bigger ones. Does that make me a bad person or a greedy hunter?
I say you should kill whatever makes you happy. It makes me happy to try and let a deer mature.
Not only that, hunting by it's very nature isn't a TEAM SPORT...it generally works out for the best when performed solitary, and as such that is the type of individuals hunting attracts...loners, guys that don't really want to be part of a larger group during the hunt. Sure, maybe it's fun to join a million other guys on Bowsite and spout off after the hunt, but during I really prefer NOT to see or hear any of you. I think most of us given the choice would take the woods all to ourselves.
Hunters discussing hunting issues has almost nothing to do with the issues relating to decreased hunter participation. That’s like saying the NBA discussions regarding the 3-point rule or NFL discussions regarding the OT format somehow affect the numbers of kids interested in pro sports. It’s simply not the case.
Broader issues are at play. For hunting, it’s mostly the huge shift to an urban/suburban society and the hugely expanded number of options kids have for their time these days. It’s pretty simple and it’s not going to change.
That’s not necessarily the death-knell for hunting though. Most non-hunters are supportive of and/or at least neutral on their opinions of hunting. The vast majority of people still eat meat so the vast majority can be educated about the benefits of hunting from both a consumptive standpoint and a wildlife conservation standpoint.
We all simply need do our part as hunters to make sure this happens.
elk yinzer's Link
However, on a collective scale, this manifests in negative, greedy ways. Over the course of a generation we have effectively privatized what the North American Model tried its best to hold as public resources, by essentially monetizing trophies, or at least the enhanced opportunity to kill so-called trophy wildlife vis-à-vis access.
This is the new generation of market hunting. One that has monetized the "trophy" quality of game and hunting. And it is a bustling marketplace. A progenitor of an entire lucrative industry. I'll venture to connect this to collective, unrestrained greed, not that all the participants are individually greedy. An inherent trait of an open marketplace. “Greed is good”….right….until it’s not and every acre of Kansas is leased and posted. Growing bucks for the highest bidders.
And here we sit with widespread access issues, the manifestation of that greed on a macro scale. Leasing and posting. Pretty amazing that a hobby has such widespread effect on land use practices, really. It’s weird in a way. If you are a lessee or a landowner and that hits too close to home, it's not my fault. I hate the game, not the players. It's not personal; I'm just providing commentary. But I’ll never participate in that marketplace either, thanks.
Then we venture into the public sector, my best guess at where John was cryptically headed....with the coming reckoning that state agencies are pissing money down the drain by not participating in the booming marketplace.
Hey, if Utah can sell their wildlife to the highest bidder, why can’t we do the same?
Everything is scalable right? If a landowner or outfitter can sell a crack at a trophy specimen for $10k why shouldn’t we do the same with trophies living on public lands we manage?
Aldo Leopold be damned, these SFW sons-a-britches know how to fill the coffers! And then the real kicker is they can justify this bullshit by cranking up the PR machine. Just tell us sheep that these big dollars fund conservation, yada yada, feel-good drivel…people take it hook, line and sinker.
What’s not to like? Wildlife to the highest bidder! Government is allergic to budget cuts…these geniuses are going to find new revenue streams in the face of a declining customer base. Why take a budget haircut when there's an untapped marketplace out there? Until it becomes unsustainable and the whole system collapses.
So my point is we can't talk out both sides of our mouth. Or I guess we can but I reserve the right to be annoyed by it. We can't have the leaders and influencers bitch and moan that the sport is dying without acknowledging we ourselves are largely the executioners. Market hunting is booming and it’ll only get worse.
Am I being a little dramatic in my observation? Yeah, but we've dramatically heard time and time again the sport is dying. I am here to deliver the message that it is largely our own doing and I am kinda sick of hearing about it.
Yeah there are many other factors, most deeply systemic and cultural. Access is but one of many. But a significant one. Most kids do not have decent hunting access within a reasonable distance. Crammed schedules, suburbanization, and other cultural issues only amplify the effect. The world is virtual. Can we fix that? Doubt it. But we shouldn't bluntly discard the role we’ve played in a creating this marketplace either.
So with that rant I disagree with much of what Bake said. There are things we can do. We can effectively say no to the path toward the trophy market hunting model and return to the seven guiding principles of the North American Model. But it’s probably too late.
In our generation, what we’ll see is probably just a continued divergence. I refuse to participate in the privatization of wildlife, and it’s not because I don’t have the resources to, it’s called principles. A novel concept these days. We’ll see the continued evolution of the trophy marketplace, and hopefully enough public spaces will be set aside for the egalitarian among us that still believe.
So in the end I am basically at the same place. Different routes led us to the same camp…yeah...we're screwed. Might as well ride it out, enjoy the hell out of it, and pass it on to my kids best I can. Who knows what the future holds beyond that.
Finally here is a reminder to some that these are supposed to be our guiding principles and just how far we have strayed from some of them. https://www.fws.gov/hunting/north-american-model-of-wildlife-conservation.html
With others, they almost try to hide these things and you have to practically drag it out of them. I tend to gravitate towards these folks. ;-)
If you hunt to supplement your meat stores....that's cool.
If you hunt because you want to shoot something mature, old, big antlers, cull....that's cool.
If you want to hunt old school in buckskins and powder or stick-n-string....that's cool.
If you hunt for a combo of those....that's cool.
Where I think a major rub is for many is they do not want to be forced to hunt under someone else's expectations or desires.
The mention above about the market hunting and for-profit hunting is an interesting take that is worthy of discussion. I might add states that have high NR license costs to that discussion about money/revenue and hunting.
I think most folks agree the decline in hunting has many fathers...so to speak. Maybe we have become dependent on those expectations mentioned above. Maybe can now readily see how others hunt across the country via TV, internet, social media, etc. Maybe that is too much info and it influences our attitudes, perceptions and expectations. One can ask themselves was hunting more enjoyable when we didn't have all of that info at our immediate disposal? Some younger members here who were not around 30, 40, 50 years or more ago and never experienced that period of hunting may not be able to relate to "how it was". That is not a slight...it's just an observation on the different generations here and what they may/may not have experienced growing up.
To throw out a few questions to chew on....who should be encouraging and teaching new hunters? How do you explain to them what's in it for me (WIIFM)? Is hunting just a "white guy's" thing? Alot to digest and think about....
I live in Texas. Even though my state is the poster-child for little public land and “pay-to-play”, there is not a single person I have known who has been unable to hunt everything from small game to deer due to “lack of access”. There are tons of available and affordable opportunities to hunt.
That is even more true in the vast majority of states.
I think when people say there is a “lack of access” what they really mean is there is a “lack of access for me to just go hunt all public land and/or knock on doors and easily hunt anywhere I want for free like I used to do.”
The potential for downfall lies in our culture as a whole, not us bickering with each other over methods or weapons. What I see as most dangerous is the commonality that killing is a bad thing to most people now. I don't see many people butchering chickens in the back yard. I don't see a lot of kids spending the day shooting sparrows and blackbirds with a BB gun. I don't see the general public accepting killing as something the average person should do. The kid who sneaks up on a flock of geese at the local park with a BB gun isn't scolded that "you can't do that in town"... he is checked by a psychiatrist to see if he is a future serial killer. The urge to hunt and kill something is repressed in our society. Instead of exploring life and death kids are playing on the xbox and youtube so that parents can keep them safe from the dangers of the outside world. Helicopter parenting and fear of letting a kid explore death is raising a generation that wants to avoid death, and as such has no love for the sport of hunting. These are the people who will let hunting slip away.
Some want the "Safety in Numbers" protection without the "Numbers" encroaching on "their" territory. Can't have both. The world has changed since colonization and monumentally more in the last thirty years than the previous five hundred. The digital disconnect is very real. So many "friends" and no one to talk to. Why and how would second and third generations of people raised in and on concrete have a desire to hunt or allow hunting? How would they have any exposure?
They only thing that may preserve hunting is the apathy that most people exhibit toward anything that doesn't interfere with their own personal pleasure. If it can be killed from an Iphone with no thought or effort, we are in trouble. But if that same person has to chose between getting his cappuccino or taking a little time to hinder hunting, then he/she will be sipping coffee instead.
Hunting won't be killed, it will just die. Oh, it may be euthanized in it's last pitiful breathes, but it will be substantially lifeless already.