CT is now 55% crossbow
Whitetail Deer
Good to hear you took that stands.
Sure hasn't improved the Live Hunts any...... =D
Honestly, good to see ya keepin' the faith Pat.
Good on this site for standing up Excellent
Can’t we all just get along....
If a crossbow was a bow I'm sure you would have allowed ads. But since they aren't bows and this is a bow site. they aren't allowed. Pretty simple.
Well , I certainly appreciate your stance.
Archery and those that enjoy archery look to Bowsite to champion our cause. It’s comforting to know there is a place we can meet and discuss our bows and our arrows.
Always call a spade a spade. Thank you.
Xbow kill surpassed vertical bow kill here decades ago to were we are a minority in our own bowseason… Tried for years to inform those proposing to allow them to fight it and they didn't know what they were in for if accepted but all I received was flack and how terrible I was, so I just quit trying to convince... So now all have to say is - "Toldja so", unless you like a crowded woods during bowseason...
And I thank you for that Pat. Been here since the 90s and the site has remained great.
Crossbows aren't evil and may even be good for hunting as a whole. They definitely aren't doing bowhunting any good.
With the declining hunter numbers nationwide, people can expect state agencies to start allowing Xbows where they haven’t been allowed previously.
Pat keep up the fight,,,,,,,, CT another state I have no interest in,,,, Its a shame what they have turned into, since at one time, it was CT and NH and NY, that led the charge of freedom,,,, now they are hocus pocus states, that no one I knows cares about,
Pat....did you see the trend turning every year or does it look like there has been a burst of crossbowers. Curious is we are losing bowhunters or gunners buying crossbows.
Realistically don’t think any manufacturers would care as they all have their own line of Xbows in addition to their compounds. NRA thinks their great too
Oh, manufacturers care. More than few major industry folks are rethinking choices they made.
Thanks for fighting the good fight Pat.
They have not legalized them on Long Island but in the rest of NY they are. I have no interest hunting with them but don’t care if others do. I do appreciate the state keeping them out of the LI season but I’m sure that will change sooner rather then later. Appreciate your resolve in not caving.
Thanks Pat most didn't I the balls to do what you have done. I appreciate it.
Congrats Pat, but we will always understand your decisions and evolution. Thank you for such a great site.
Thank ya. Never understood anyone carrying one of those awkward things.
Pat stay the course. Bowsite rocks just as it is.
Appreciated Pat! Everyone, and I mean everyone else has succumbed or caved to the lobbyist, it's a SAD state of affairs here in KS too.
Same thing being discussed on the CT page, some different perspectives, take a look and chime in.
Forgot to tell Pat - thanks for taking a stand a sticking to it... I applaud you...
Franklin - "Curious is we are losing bowhunters or gunners buying crossbows" Been my experience both, but would say likely more gun hunters extending their opportunities which turned our bowseason into a pseudo gun season in this densely populated state... Although our state bowhunting org changed bylaws to accept them a few years ago, in which I sadly dropped membership which I originally joined in the 1980's to fight xbow legalization, but instead after a generation they infiltrated and conquered... I'll personally never join another outdoor organization due to that betrayal... I'm done with the fight, now just hunt, but the bow was the reason for the season...
SitO - CO has not at least not yet.
Yea, but they created CWD so...
Kidding! Thanks CO, keep it real!
Kick to bowriters nuts. Lol! ;)
I kid, I kid.
Thank you for taking that stand Pat
I guess I'm the odd ball....I don't have a problem with crossbows. I don't own one nor have any burning desire to get one. However if I got hit with some injury I would look at getting one just to keep hunting. I would be hypocritical if I said otherwise. I suspect many on here would considering getting one too just to keep hunting an early season.
This thread does bring up a good topic WRT the "industry". Anyone know how many manufactures make both a vert bow and crossbow either directly or thru a collateral company? That could create a dilemma running ads for those dual companies?
The attached link just came out recently talking about the global crossbow market from a business perspective. Looks like ya have to pay for the report unless you can find it free.
The published Wisconsin statistics will answer some of the questions as to who is buying scoped crossbows, at least in the once great bow and arrow hunting state of Wisconsin. Likely similar trends are in other states where crossbows are legal for all hunters. Huge loss of real bow and arrow hunters, many having switched to scoped crossbows.
Pat, thanks for your commitment.
Part of CBA's Mission statement and policy statement:
The CBA categorically rejects crossbow technology as being legal archery equipment for use during any archery season in Colorado, and will actively oppose the use of crossbows or implementation of crossbow seasons under any circumstance, where such use will diminish or degrade the bow hunting experience, opportunity and /or quality with the handheld, hand drawn bow.
We do support the use of the crossbow during an archery only season, for medical reasons if valid and proven.
The CBA ( I as the DOW/CBA Liaison at that time with the support of the CBA Board) testified before the Commission a few years back when the crossbow issue came forward and the crossbow petitioner was denied. The DOW also apposed their use during an archery only season. The Commission vote in our favor for a variety of good reasons.
So far so good.
my best, Paul
Now that crossbows are included in many archery seasons, i would think that we might want to be concerned about the "next" arrow technology that will be coming down the road. The door is no longer cracked open, but is now swung wide open. Glad you hung tough, Pat. Thanks! Wonder how many guys would go back to stickbows if that's what it took to preserve an archery-only season in a state. Just curious. No judgement here.
"Vertical bow"? ... yes, we know that a bow is held and drawn vertically.
This is not about all getting along, it's simply about being logical and honest about it. This is the Bowsite and I appreciate Pat's logic and honesty.
Ken - Yes, "Vertical bows", that was how our DNR distinguished them from xbows...
Curious if the total bow kill has increased significantly or has the %'s just changed between xbow/bow.
Crossbow lobby working hard in KY to open the entire archery season to include Xguns........... Currently they are legal part time unless you have a medical waiver.
I'm not much interested in the political argument against crossbows...at least here in Ohio...as they are established and are NOT going away. I believe other states are treating them an invasive species and that's about the only way to keep them back. If you give them an exemption for use by disabled hunters, you've allowed them into your seasons and I will bet you MY FARM they'll eventually get into the hands of general archery hunters. Don't read my comment as being against crossbow hunters because I'm not. I'm only saying (again) if you give the weapon a foothold of any kind in your state....it's inevitable they'll gain full acceptance. That's been the strategy for many decades. It has worked. It will work again.
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To clarify my own position: I have almost nothing in common with the guy who hunts with a crossbow, except that we both hunt. Our equipment and the demands it puts on us are extremely dissimilar. The physical commitment is different. The mental aspects which lead to accuracy are far different. Tuning a bow...compound or stickbow...is a far different endeavor versus adjusting a telescopic sight. Getting your release perfected...fingers or mechanical...is still a much more involved thing versus squeezing off a firearms-type trigger while holding back no weight of bow limbs at all. The short version is that I have very little crossover with a crossbow guy. That certainly does not mean I won't like him, enjoy his company and share the woods with him. I will. I'll just know he's hunting with something other than a bow and arrow which is the equipment and methodologies I prefer.
If this place was Crossbowsite I would have no point being here, just as I don't care to read about 3-wheeled motorcycles or maybe 600 yard sheep shots. It's just who I am.
This is the seventh year of full crossbow inclusion in Indiana. Will be surprised if the crossbow harvest does not exceed the archery harvest for 2018. Crossbow harvest has been climbing steadily since 2012. Archery harvest going in the opposite direction. Last year, the two were separated by a mere 2% of total harvest.
Thanks for keeping Bowsite vertical Pat!
For years in Colorado, it was against the law to use lighted nocks and and bow-mounted electronic recording devices.
They are legal now. Never say never.
Here is a link to a recent Field & Stream article called "Counter Effect". Vice President of PSE chimes in that full crossbow inclusion has proven to be bad for business. Interesting read....
Kevin Dill, what you mention is slowly happening in MN. Bowhunters have fought it off the last couple years. But they made exceptions for disabled, which I don't mind, but then allowed them for anyone over age 60. I imagine they will be allowed for youth and maybe women next. But for the time being, bowhunters and even the Minnesota Deer Hunters Assoc. voted down full inclusion in archery season.
Well done Pat! As I said in another thread, your values should never be for sale!
To me the interesting trend is how many hunters want to stop bowhunting to become crossbow hunters. Clearly, when possible, many former bow hunters are preferring to lay down their bow and arrows for a scoped crossbow and bolts. Why is that?
"Why is that?"
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You won't get a universal answer. You won't even get an accurate answer unless crossbow users (who used to use vertical bows) elect to weigh in.
12yards - Yeah, that is exactly how they do it... Xbows were first allowed here in 1976, but it was ONLY for the HANDICAP, and ONLY for the FIRST THREE WEEKS of the archer deer season. It stayed that way for a couple years, then DNR adopted them for ANYONE who could pull a trigger the first 3 weeks.
Then in 1980 the DNR adopted them for anyone our entire bowseason…. So once they get their foot in the door your fight will likely be over... But if I'm reading you right if you have some kind of vote, keep up the fight, but as stated earlier, once they infiltrate even your bowhunting org, its over... And oh BTW, the DNR said once the xbow exceeds the vertical bow kill, they'd cut their season back... Didn't happen, they now use xbows as a deer management tool...
I don't use a crossbow and don't have a problem with anyone that does, but lately it seems more and more people are having shoulder issues when explaining why they use the crossbow. I'm not saying they are not legit complaints, I just never heard much talk of shoulder problems before crossbows became legal.
Didn't Bowsite have an ad or something for a Mission crossbow?
Missouribreaks, a big reason a lot of hunters are going to the crossbow is becase they are LAZY! Ive heard every excuse, don't have time to practice, can shoot out to 50 yds, cant draw my bow anymore,etc. The truth is we cant disappoint anyone anymore. Sad but true. And the other aspect is states want $$$, so anything to sell more liscences and generate more $ for the state will get the ok. Regardless of what the bowhunters have to say, unfortunately.
Back when I started bow and arrow hunting over fifty years ago, most hunted with bows because of the challenge. It seems the culture of "challenge" somehow got lost and became one of "entitlement to a deer".
compounds replaced recurves and longbows maybe crossbows will replace compounds maybe in 50 years another something replaces crossbows
The greased politicians turned wildlife managers just brought crossguns to Illinois last season. I have no doubt we will be past 55% way quicker than CT. Hell last year I surveyed the trucks at one hotel and found 20 NR plates with crossgun cases inside before I saw one with a compound case. I had an Iowa tag last year, but this season never did see another compound hunter. I only ran into 4 guys in the field. All packing crossguns.
Same reason I started bowhunting, The Challenge. But today no one can be disappointed n everyone gets a trophy! Have to have youth seasons, whats wrong with making a kid wait to reach a certain age n hunt when everyone else hunts? And its not only in hunting, its in all facets of life.
I agree with what Missouribreaks says regarding the challenge of bowhunting and why we started back in the old days. Please keep up the " Good Fight" and thank you Pat.....badbull
Crossbow acceptance in archery season: This follows a linear progression of equipment advances designed (and welcomed) to make bowhunting success easier or more dependable. My comment is NOT a negative on the crossbow or any other device. I'm trying to show the crossbow is just a logical step on the stairway of making bowhunting easier. You can go back in time 20, 50, 100 years and see advancements (if you call them that) in the equipment used by bowhunters. The sport has always historically been demanding and difficult, which also makes it ripe for creations designed to overcome some of the difficulties. I had a crosshair sight taped to my recurve back about 1973. Think about ALL the things for vertical bows which didn't exist in 1973, but are well accepted today.
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As a group, bowhunters are in love with almost anything that improves accuracy and killing success. The crossbow wasn't invented by Pete Shepley, but PSE saw the potential and a bowhunter helped create the modern compound crossbow. The leap from stickbow to compound bow to crossbow has only happened because hunters wanted it and embraced it when introduced. Think: Why do you climb trees to hunt deer versus sitting against a tree? Do you still map-and-compass your way in the backcountry or on the highways? Who is using electric devices to get them around in the woods and trails? Do you really NEED a laser rangefinder to be a good bowhunter?
Nobody (who used to hunt with a vertical bow) is carrying a crossbow in an effort to make things tougher and more challenging for themselves. They're doing the natural thing which is to take the easier path to success. The ends justify the means for most in most things. When the airrow-gun or some other clever device gets a firm foothold (and we've got many decades of precedent to indicate it will) clunky crossbows will become cobweb attic art. The silent 'thing' which makes it even easier to hunt and kill during archery season will be embraced as a new generation of weapon. The fact there won't be any 'arch' in it won't matter. The kill is the thing.
CT started a January season with the xbow years later they found out how efficient it was and opened it up thru the hole season ,it was a tool to decrease the deer heard. Advantages are I think there are less wounded deer .Pat I remember saying one time he would rather have his friend hunt with one than chase all the deer he wounded . they do have there place out there .Steve
It is important to realize the scoped crossbow issue is about more than killing whitetail deer, which are overpopulated and potentially diseased(CWD) in many areas. Becoming more efficient at killing potentially diseased and overcrowded whitetail deer is a non issue, especially in urban and farmland areas where the deer have many safe zones.
Many species such as elk, bear, moose, cougar, antelope, mule deer goat, sheep, turkey etc are not so plentiful and in many areas are already on limited drawings or quota seasons. Should scoped crossbows become legal for all and increase the archery kill on these species in areas such as Colorado, Montana etc you will see a decrease in license and hunting opportunity,.... point creep, decreased quotas and shorter seasons will be sure to come at an accelerated pace .
Remember... the scoped crossbow issue goes beyond a 40 acres covered with box blinds and over populated whitetail deer, some potentially harboring CWD.
Natural progression for some just like any other industry.
I don't think the wounding rate will be any different for a couple of reasons. New recruits that are inexperinced "bowhunters" that expect the deer to drop in in its tracks. Longer shots being taken and its hard enough enough to know where the deer was standing at 20 yards, let alone 60 yards to find blood trail. He is huge I gotta shoot now! And our media shows every hit as lethal and a quick kill, easy to find. So I missed him clean. I'm have found more bolts than arrows the last three years. I read here in PA the crossbows accounted for 65% of kills. As a side note ethics in general are leaving our ranks quickly. IMHO
To many people would rather take a bad shot than pass ,than my take on it .I think that what's happened to a lot of new hunters ,and tv shows lots of pressure to kill .Steve
This certainly is not science... but I saw two crossbow kills this year and both of them were gut shot
Stay the course Pat, good for you and Bowsite.
"And the other aspect is states want $$$, so anything to sell more liscences and generate more $ for the state will get the oK." I was thinking about this in reference to Colorado. If DOW thinks they can sell more tags by allowing crossbows during the general archery season, they will make it happen.
This certainly is not science... but I saw to crossbow kills this year and both of them were gut shot post like this just make me shake my head !
Funny how compound bows are allowed in P&Y. They obviously caved to pressure from the MFG's.
The P&Y club did cave, multiple times. To survive they may need an adjustment once again, evolve as some would say.
this controversy has become essentially meaningless......it's over. They are everywhere now.
It is meaningless. Bow and arrow hunting will continue to decline, as will the challenge and culture of hunting the hard way .....with a bow and arrow.
I to lament the lose of the old days. My wife absolutely refuses to churn butter in the light of our homemade beef tallow candles. I caved on that one and now she wants artificial light in the outhouse. Never give an inch!!!
The nerve of her Ambush...50 lashings....lol
Stay strong ambush....the rack and pinion steering in my Oldsmobile is taking its toll on my shoulders but power steering is for wussy’s! I will quit hunting if I can’t pull my bow back becuz of my shoulders before I pick up an evil bowgun!
They ain’t everywhere yet.
What's the difference between a crossbow with a scope and a compound with sights?
One is pre cocked and the other has to be drawn. One can be rested on the ladder stand rail, the other one will break.
One shoots an arrow, the other a bolt.
One is much easier to shoot out the vehicle window.
One needs a safety so it isn’t accidentally discharged.
And ...one needs to be discharged or unloaded before it can be placed in a vehicle
I was driving through a public land area in Indiana last season. No joke I saw an idiot walking through the timber on the way to his stand. He had a crossgun in one hand and a shotgun in the other. I suppose if the deer came by close enough he was gonna be a “bowhunter” that day but if it wasn’t close enough for his scoped crossgun then he could blow it away with the shotgun.
Up here, crossbows outsell compounds by a large margin according to the bow techs at the local bow shop. They are actually selling a few more recurves as people react to high tech.
Those who use the argument that crossguns are the “natural progression” of archery have a rediculous platform. Crossguns are not archery. Game managers established difficult restrictions on hunting seasons in order to extend and maximize the resource, and maintain a quality herd. But special interest groups & politicians usurp that management with only money and exploitation of the resource by short cutting the system in mind. Herd quality will clearly suffer in the end unless game managers are allowed to do their jobs, instead of retarded greased politicians who skipped history class in high school.
So why is the guy an idiot ? Is there a law against carrying two different weapons ? I have seen guys bring a compound bow and shotgun to their blind for turkey are they idiots also ?
This link pertains to my post above............
These are your new wildlife managers. Idiots who think the 2nd amendment was created with hunting in mind! What an idiot. What an idiot. Did I mention what an idiot?
Thank you Pat for staying the course.
Nobody to blame but hunters themselves. It is the able bodied hunters who are reaching into their wallets and buying scoped crossbows and using them during the general archery seasons. Why do so many blame everything else..... except the able bodied hunters themselves? Nobody is making former bow hunters lay down their bows and arrows ( generally a compound bow) to be replaced with a scoped crossbow. Only hunters buy scoped crossbows to start their kids out hunting.
The scoped crossbow revolution is embraced by the majority of former bow and arrow hunters. Time to stop the blame game, the able bodied hunters who own a scoped crossbow are the culprits. The actual purchase of a scoped crossbow by hunters is what drives the industry and scoped crossbow culture, nothing else.
Zim lighten up, it could be worse, at least she’s pro-hunting. Did I mention it could be worse?
Timbrhuntr, in short.......yes. Maybe idiot isn’t the right word although it probably is. Opportunist maybe?
I like things I can work on or fix myself. Carbureted motorcycles, old trucks, a model A, flintlocks, etc. I watch guys bring their c-bows and x-bows into the local bow shop to be worked on and it just doesn’t appeal to me. Not only that, but look at what a crossbow costs fully set up. Hunting is an individual pursuit. Some love technology with all the gadgets, feeders, high tech camo, the works. Others like myself prefer a longbow, wood arrows, plaid woolens, and staying on the ground. I really don’t care at my age what you hunt with. My 1727 French Tulle de Chasse, 62 caliber flinter will flatten anything that roams this continent, as will my longbow. Hunting is patience, scouting, playing the wind, with a lot of bullshit luck thrown in. You can’t kill them up here unless you are out there, a lot.
All you purists, and I say that while rolling my eyes, that think that a crossbow is a gun is a idiot. Scoped or not they are not guns! They have been around for a thousand years, they again are not guns! Most on here sound like liberal meltdown snowflakes putting other hunters who LEGALLY hunt with a legal weapon down and want them eliminated from the "hunting" ranks. I with all honestly doubt that not one member on this site has had their life seriously impacted by the use of some other guy using a crossbow anywhere in this nation.
I’ve got no problem with crossbows as a weapon or a hunting tool. But the crossbow guys should have fought for their own seasons rather than just riding on the coattails of the bowhunters. That’s just my opinion and of course it’s irrelevant now anyway.
I dont really disagree with that jon but most dont understand that there really wasn't many "crossbow guys". Hunters numbers are decreasing and the average age is increasing. There really is no mass influx of new hunters regardless of weapon. Sure there are firearm hunters who have taken up a crossbow, but I personally do not know one guy that owns a crossbow now that did not bowhunt with a compound before. I believe that a very high percentage of "crossbow guys" were already hunting anyway but that is just my opinion.
My nephew in Michigan is a new hunter, and started with a crossbow. He wants to switch to a real bow, not sure if he got one yet.
Powder I hadn’t really thought about that and you very well could be right.
"Nobody to blame but hunters themselves. It is the able bodied hunters who are reaching into their wallets and buying scoped crossbows and using them during the general archery seasons. Why do so many blame everything else..... except the able bodied hunters themselves? Nobody is making former bow hunters lay down their bows and arrows (generally a compound bow) to be replaced with a scoped crossbow. Only hunters buy scoped crossbows to start their kids out hunting. The actual purchase of a scoped crossbow by hunters is what drives the industry and scoped crossbow culture, nothing else." ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Wrong, wrong & wrong. 90% of hunters are going to use the weapons & technology the law allows the. It is the wildlife managers' job to determine the limitations & guidelines to allow for good herd management. If you let hunters make all their own regulations, there would be 12 month long rifle deer seasons with unlimited tags, like in Tennessee, Louisisana, Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia & Michigan, which is why they all now grab their crossguns & run to Illinois October 1st. Second - The majority of the crossgun hunters here are as Jon stated, gun hunters riding the coat tails of bowhunters. At least here in Illinois, absolutely no doubt in that. Gun hunters wanting a piece of the previously protected rut pie. Third - It's not hunters that are the problem, it's special interest groups & wannabe wildlife manager greased politicians. All in the name of fast cash. Real wildlife managers have had their hands thoroughly tied behind their backs.
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Clearly any way you slice it or make excuses for, this lady skipped high school history class or is just plain retarded. Your new greased wildlife manager..........your tax dollars at work.
Somehow the posters on the PBS thread seem to resist the advantages over game, why can't other hunters set limitations? Do we need the government to control our every hunting move ?.....May be, I guess is what you are saying.
"Zim lighten up, it could be worse, at least she’s pro-hunting. Did I mention it could be worse?"
Why should he lighten up? He's spot on. The only reason she APPEARS pro hunting is because there is something substantial in it for her. Be it political gain, votes, money...
...compound bows being marginalized like recurve and longbows were back during the “compound inclusion” imbroglio(s) . So, as it was argued then, compounds are just like traditional equipment after all. Life is a circular phenomenon, indeed.
I’m with Zim.
But I still get a hearty laugh out of the protestations of those who’ve never hunted without a trigger of some sorts.
Looks like we “Trad Elitist” sumbidges had better make room for a few more stumps around our “exclusive” campfire...
a crossbow is a lot of fun, but it needs to be used, in any season, where a firearm is legal at the time..... full inclusion it should not be, except for those with physical needs and over 65............
I'm with you 100% - Crossbows ought to be legal in any/all archery-only areas... during FIREARMS seasons....
Has anyone ever thought that maybe crossbows will save the longer bow seasons with how much more effective they are?
Hunter numbers are dropping, deer numbers are rising, and overall kills are decreasing while diseases like CWD that require more effective herd management are increasing in prevalence. Archery equipment in general is not the most effective or efficient tool to kill deer. Higher success and increased kill can justify keeping the current bow season framework vs increasing gun season duration and opportunities.
Everyone pisses and moans about changes and mostly for selfish reasons. Things are changing due to CWD and an aging hunting population and hunting in general is going to see huge shifts in the next 10-20yrs in how herds are managed and the tools used. Crossbow inclusion and percent of hunters using them is a pretty small issue compared with some of the things hunters will face in the next few years.
We invented hunting weapons that are more effective than bows and arrows and which have a very easy learning curve hundreds of years ago.
Bowhunting and bow seasons as we know them became a thing due to people purposely limiting themselves to equipment far harder to use and far less effective than what was commonly available.
That challenge used to be what made bowhunting so satisfying and so much fun. The result was long seasons, less crowding, easier to draw tags and sometimes easier access to land.
Now, the drive to gain access to all those great things created by bowhunting is being chased at the expense of the fundemental tenets that allowed bow season to even become a thing.
Blunt, the only answer ultimately will be shorter seasons, or none for “primitive” weapons.
Sorry, grunt. This iPad constantly changes spelling as I type. I am not computer literate enough to figure out how to stop it.
Lawdy, I won’t stand for either of those options. I’m also very tired of this shrinking Hunter numbers being an excuse for everything goes! Overall hunter numbers may be shrinking but bow hunter numbers are not nor are the number of hunters applying for western tags
Bow and arrow hunter numbers are shrinking in all states where scoped crossbows are allowed for able bodied hunters in general archery seasons. Scoped crossbow hunter numbers are increasing.
"Has anyone ever thought that maybe crossbows will save the longer bow seasons with how much more effective they are?"
Actually it's more likely for the effectiveness of crossbows to SHORTEN archery seasons that they are allowed in. I used a crossbow this year due to an actual injury, not imagined as many converts have. I can say NEVER again. There is nothing to it. To those that say they offer no advantage. You are kidding yourself.
"That challenge used to be what made bowhunting so satisfying and so much fun. The result was long seasons, less crowding, easier to draw tags and sometimes easier access to land"
could you not say that compounds started the erosion decades before crossbows are what they now are ?
I requested the property manager at my preferred public property to consider enacting a property exclusive ban of crossguns during their archery season due to the gross increase in harvest last year. Can’t hurt to push for this. One way to beat the politicians.
Live and let live,tired of all of this
Michael Annette, in my state, NH, we estimate our deer herd to be around 90,000 animals. Biologists look for a 10% harvest rate. When muzzleloading seasons began, only around 300 deer were killed with traditional guns. It is around 3,000 now. Bow used to be less than 100. Now it is up there with muzzleloader. We used to have a 10 day either/or for ML and three years ago had our bow season up here in zone A cut by a week. To maintain that 10% means that as success rates increase, seasons must be curtailed. Our moose permits have gone from hundreds to around 50 due to the Ticks. Our deer kill continues to rise, we will see more cuts.
A lot of lazy hunters in ct, compound or go home!
"compound or go home! "
why compound? why not recurve/longbow?
In 2016 Illinois crossbow kill was around 15% of the total archery kill. Last year when full season crossbow was legal it jumped to 30%. I would guess it will be over 50% for 2018. There are a few gun only guys that started hunting with them but mostly it’s compound guys who want something a little easier. You can shoot them out of that boxblind on your neighbors fence in the open field. I don’t like them at all but the same arguments the trad guys used against compounds, the compound guys use against crossbows.
Guys the sky is not following because of crossbows.
Haters who hate this or that because they don't approve of it does no good for the hunting sport.
Nobody insinuated that the sky was FOLLOWING
The sky is not falling,....... but bow and arrow hunter numbers are falling, and in record numbers. Able bodied scoped crossbow hunters are on a rapid increase.
Even though they didn't change any regs, I think the fact Wyoming G&F gave consideration to removing crossbows from the archery season is an indication that harvest rates changed and moving crossbows out of archery season is a better option than shortening archery season for everyone.
Thank you Pat. Your efforts are greatly appreciated. The Industry is worried, and for good reason. At a recent ATA meeting, concern was expressed about declining sales of true archery tackle across the board. They are not the "gateway" to archery as has been touted by the crossbow proponents. Also, the crossbow manufacturers are "worried" about advancing themselves out of the archery seasons where they are allowed. That they have become so powerful and so accurate out to long distances that restrictions may be placed on them in the future. In several states, in just a few years, not only crossbow kills, but crossbow license sales have surpassed those of true archery. I have been fighting this fight for over 20 years. Keep up the good work Pat. All the best, Al.
I watched our muzzleloading season go from a muzzleloader season to a scoped, single shot, enclosed rifle season. To regulate the increased kill numbers, we went from a 10 day either/or season to bucks only as the kill increased 10 fold. Archery will follow. Crossbows outsell compounds up here now. Accept the inevitable. Hunting is a personal challenge for me. As a former athlete and current coach, I view hunting as a competition between me and the animal, not other hunters. I spend a whole season trying to outfox a buck by tracking, still hunting, or lying in wait along a run with my longbow. To go modern, use bait, etc, is cheating, for me, not everyone else. I don’t expect others to follow my methods, it’s my game out there, no one else’s. I hunt deer only with the longbow, so hopefully, as seasons are shortened, I will still have time to play the game.
I've made this point before, and it pains me to say it...
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Ohio kills approximately half (HALF!) its total annual deer take with archery season weapons. This as opposed to decades ago when it was about 5%. Of the total archery season take, crossbows account for well beyond half the deer killed. You can surmise 1) the weapon is extremely popular and 2) it's extremely effective. I'll also add it's easy to master and shoot accurately; likely requiring almost no practice to remain competent with. Ohio is the proving grounds for what happens when crossbows are introduced, and we (as a state) are farther along in the progression/evolution of this thing than any other state. Period.
If you could...today...take the crossbow out of our archery season, it would set in motion a chain reaction of events. Most immediate would be the reduced deer harvest (crossbows accounting for somewhere near 1/3 of our total kill) and sudden rise in deer population. There would be an immediate reaction from the ODNR to somehow maintain necessary harvest figures (agree or disagree with those) and of course the remaining archery hunters could never accomplish that. The result would be an expansion of opportunities for firearm hunters who would be the likeliest beneficiaries of such a scenario. The state and its various economic interests are not about to let the deer population get out of hand and produce a negative financial impact.
Crossbows change the game completely, especially when management decisions rely on their use and effectiveness. I look at them like opioids. Easy to get on and almost impossible to kick. Hunters and deer managers get dependent on them with no plan to ever stop.
Just to say it again: I don't sweat it any more here. I don't care if a guy is using one. I'll treat him the same as any other hunter. His weapon and my weapon have very little in common, and I don't consider him a bowhunter...but he has as much legal right to be out there as I do. No sleep lost.
This scoped crossbow impact discussion seems to be centered around midwestern and eastern whitetail deer, which are plentiful, CWD impacted, and with decreased hunter interest. What about bear, elk, lion, caribou, sheep, moose, mule deer, antelope, and other species already on a limited draw , quota system, etc? Does anyone see any potential impact if scoped crossbows are allowed in general archery seasons for all able bodied and disabled hunters?
Agree with JTV. A lot of people’s opinions would be different if they hunted public land.
Isn't Wisconsin considered the front-runner with how they structured their archery and crossbow seasons? If I remember right they sold their tags separately so that actual data could be collected and a comparison could be made between horizontal and vertical bows. I wonder where they are at with that? What do numbers say from a state who kept track? I know in KS there is no way for the State to actually know... they don't sell tags as separate or ask what type of bow you used.
You are correct about Wisconsin. They have seen a large drop in bow and arrow hunter numbers, and a large increase in able bodied scoped crossbow hunters.
Michigan has also had a similar puking of their bow and arrow hunter numbers. Most able bodied Michigan archery season hunters now use modern scoped crossbows. Therefore, the majority of archery season participants in Michigan are no longer bow and arrow hunters.
What's the harvest numbers say though? Hasn't this thread turned to "higher harvests = shorter seasons". I'm curious as to what total archery (vertical and horizontal) harvest numbers have done since a crossbow season has been introduced. I didn't know Michigan had the same tag structures (separated) but like I said before I know KS does not have them separated.
Michigan tags are not seperate, but there have been articles and links on this forum for both Michigan and Wisconsin estimated scoped crossbow vs bow and arrow users, and kill, statistics.
Why did you get into archery in the first place? What was your motivation?
I bought my 1st compound bow around '92 or '93, not because of any great love of archery, but because hunting deer for the 7 days of gun season simply was not enough. Archery season allowed me to spend sufficient time pursuing my favorite hobby - hunting deer. Obviously, back then crossbows weren't very popular and weren't an option. I killed plenty of deer with compounds over the next 20+ years. But after all of those seasons hunting with a compound, I had simply grown tired of all of the time required and the extra limitations. I was very ready to switch to a crossbow and have done so with no regrets.
But again, I'm a hunter who sees archery as a deer harvesting tool that fills my need to be in the woods.
If you are an archer who also hunts, sure hate crossbows all you want. Or if crossbows have made your hunting situation way worse, sure hate them.
Since I know what it takes to shoot a compound well, I don't begrudge anybody the decision to use one or skip all of that & go with the crossbow.
You can ridicule a person's decision all you want, but it is still theirs to make. And yes, I still see crossbows as bows and hunting with them as archery. It may not be exactly the same as the way you do it, but I'm still launching a broadhead tipped stick off of a string, with limitations that are very similar.
Oh & I still like Bowsite because, for me, it is mostly about hunting. And since I consider a crossbow a bow........
I have no issue with crossbows, makes the remainder more impressive in their commitment to the challenge of bow and arrow hunting. I am proud to be in the shrinking minority, and with my longbow.
When I got into archery you were allowed one deer per year, bow or gun, NOT both. I chose longbow, that says a bit about me.
Yes Missouri, that does say a lot about you. I can only claim that I've always taken the easy way out and used a compound instead of my longbows. I hope to change that someday!
I'm a lot like KX500 in that I started bow hunting because it was the earliest way I could hunt (14yrs old for archery, 16yrs old for rifle). In those first two years I learned to love bow hunting and never took up rifle hunting. The other reason I chose bowhunting was timing of the rut. I love to hunt the rut and the only way to do that is during bowseason. We are a 1 buck state so until they made "any season" tags (which I hate) you had to choose what weapon you wanted to hunt with and stick with that decision. I would like to see KS bring that back.
OK one myth that needs to be dissolved is that the cross "bow" brings in new hunters. That's a bucket of crap. It has brought in gun hunters into archery season. Very few hunters start with a crossbow outside kids and most of them start with guns. I don't have a problem with people using them if they have a disability - but its pathetic that the manufactures lobbied and got them included into archery season. I remember fighting for separate archery seasons way back when. But in all actuality, this all started with compounds and 50% let off - we said once that door was opened there would be no end - guess we were right. Vent over.
You are correct DT, unfortunately bow hunters have lost this round and there is likely no going back.
The crossbow is not considered a problem or liability by the DNR in basically all the states where legal. A lot of bowhunters feel otherwise but the regs are set. The only thing which would ever get crossbows shut down would be for them to be seen as a serious liability by the state, but I don't see that as likely in my lifetime.
Am I the only one who thinks that crossbows aren’t going ANYWHERE until the deer biologists have reduced the herds to sustainable levels?
Archery and ML seasons have gone from being fringe activities with no appreciable impact on total harvest - a Hunter Management tool - to being a deer biologists’s most efficient Wildlife Management tool.
And the Bios aren’t putting that tool down ‘til they’re done with it.
And here’s your problem: MOST of the hunting public wants NOTHING to do with the deer densities that the biologists are trying to reach.
They don’t want to be allowed to buy just one tag a year, and they don’t want to hunt where you can hunt hard for a dozen full days a never get a shot.
Maybe those kinds of levels are below the targets; that’d be GREAT.
Although it kinda sounds like oh, I dunno - anywhere on public land in the West...
I wonder what happens when license revenue drops below what’s required to run those departments??
Just curious... How many of you guys that are outraged by the invasion of high tech crossbows, also shoot all the bells and whistles on their 80% let off compounds? The road to crossbows was paved with the acceptance of high tech compounds. And the road to airbows is paved with crossbows. Ultra modern compounds and associated gear (like hand held releases) are just the base layer on the highway to airbows and whatever technology that will eventually follow the airbow. Bow season is dead. The lust for technology murdered it. Nothing against technology...I dont hunt with rifles that drive tacks at 400 yards, but Im not against it...IN RIFLE SEASON. Ya wanna be a bow hunter? Get a bow. Ya wanna be a tech hunter? Get your own season.
I self identify as a stick bow, stone point shooter. I want my own season.
Ambush- you can’t have your own season because there ain’t enough guys like you huntingbto keep population in check. That is the stated purpose of hunting. Same with trad guys, not enough to keep population from exploding. Compound guys can’t do it either and that is why we have firearm season. Crossbows, when used by a bunch of guys for the whole archery season can do it.
Traditional archers and muzzleloaders had their own seasons once, both were puked away to technology. No sense going back now, just have one deer season and kill them however you choose. Traditional archery is a choice for those like me, does not deserve it's own season.
Actually... according to Wisconsin (the one state that kept tags separated so that they could study real data) total archery deer harvest numbers have dropped since the crossbow season have been instated. Numbers from a 5 year average before inclusion and 5 years post inclusion show Wisconsin hunters are killing less deer now than they were before inclusion.
So, when looking at this from a management standpoint (as brought up earlier in this thread) instead of shortening archery season due to higher effectiveness of the new weapon... it stands to reason that we may loose some our season to expand rifle season (where the vast majority of deer are killed). A lack of total success numbers in archery combined with the CWD scare, and the push to drop deer numbers drastically could create a push to rid states of archery all together and just go with a long "any weapon season" to drop numbers. Scary stuff to think about for anyone who currently has a good deal going.
The ONLY reason one chooses a compound over a trad bow is that it is easier.
I agree with the P&Y mission. Unfortunately, with the growth of scoped crossbows and the decline of bow and arrow hunters, without change the P&Y Club will become a ghost of their former self.
There is no disqualifying element of a crossbow that would logically exclude it from being defined as archery equipment. As such, if the respective game departments say they fall within management goals, crossbows belong in bow or archery season. Now, if one wants to advocate knocking the wheels off of everything in archery (or bow) season, that makes more sense... That stated, the P&Y Club is free to claim its own position and represent whom they choose.
quote: "More effective". Recurve kill's just as dead. Just harder to become hunting proficient = compound easier.
SteveBNY- I know a few guys that have switched back to trad for the challenge. The problem with that is they rarely killed anything with the compound so I would think that was challenging enough. Now they tout the traditional bow as the reason why they didn’t kill anything again this year. The reason they didn’t kill anything this year is because they couldn’t get to within effective shooting range of a target animal. The compound guys have a bigger effective range so therefore they should experience greater success. Crossbow guys better yet. The bow you carry is not what makes it easy, it’s your ability to get close enough for a good shot with your weapon of choice.
It is easier however to get " close enough" with a scoped crossbow than it is with a compound or stickbow. " Enough" is the variable.
Missouribreaks, that is funny. Back in 1986 I went to the outside archery club range and walking to the club there were several compounds that had scopes on them, the one gent with it looked at me with my longbow and ask me if I was serous in using that thing for hunting and I replied if he used that scope for hunting and he reply he did and so did I.
Unfortunately we as bowhunters did not do our due diligence in restricting the equipment technology used for bowhunting and it has involved to a non-bowhunting event that was initially never was design for and now either let it get into your head or not. Myself I'll just keep on hunting with my stick and let the rest go to their way without any support from me.
jjs, good post. 1boonr, some of us old guys started with longbows and recurves in the early 50’s and never saw the need to switch. I, for one, have never shot a compound. Up here we have very few deer, so it is a challenge to even see one. I average one shot per year keying on one buck. Since my shots are almost all under 10 yards on the ground, I can’t blame a miss on the longbow. I blame me. This year it was not seeing a twig, tunnel vision. I will use my Meigs #46 bamboo longbow until I die. It is light, a piece of art, deadly, and I am good with it, baring twigs that jump in the way. My love affair with longbows began in 1951 with a #25 lemonwood longbow my father bought for me along with a Robin Hood hat. A #50 lemonwood took me to 1985 when I retired it for my Meigs.
Here she rests with my wife’s and granddaughters recurves.
JTV, in all honesty very few bowhunters give a rip what P&Y stands for or what they say. P&Y has little to no influence at all of how game agencies operate and that will not change. P&Y simply does not have any clout. That wont change unless membership and involvement increases drastically, and that's not the clubs mission. One can find more information and bylaws on the web for The International Brotherhood Of The Loyal Racoons and it doesn't even exist in real life!
The industry needs to embrace technological change and market demand for xbows, which I think it generally has and will continue as xbow sales increase into the future. That Bowsite doesn't support xbow ads is, in my opinion, shortsighted and simply a bad business decision.
Re the anti xbow folks, it really seems to be self-serving and a resistance to keep hunters out of the woods during the proverbial "my" precious bow season or prevent hunters from taking "my" deer. Maybe you should embrace the technology, whether allowing it during the bow season or setting a separate xbow season. Moreover, these folks should consider the larger issue of simply increasing the number of deer hunters, expecially with an aging hunter demographic and reduced entry of younger hunters. But, sadly, that issue, among others, is glossed over in favor or the selfishness of many bow hunters not wanting to share the woods or season with xbow hunters. Newsflash folks, xbow sales will continue to increase at an exponential rate, vertical bow sales will continue to be flat, and wildlife agencies will endorse xbows. I hunt with both in CT and NY. I'm happy that CT allows a shared season and I fully support NY having a shared season.
I respectfully disagree Blatch. I don't believe the crossbow to be a hunter recruitment tool whatsoever (i.e. non-hunters were not waiting on crossbow inclusion to take up hunting). Crossbows do, however, put more people in the woods during archery season...primarily gun hunters that never had a desire to bowhunt. Prior to full crossbow inclusion, Indiana had a disability crossbow permit for as long as I can remember. The only thing that prevented the gun hunters from participating in archery season was looking back at them in the mirror.
I agree with you regarding crossbow sales. Full crossbow inclusion is definitely diminishing bowhunter recruitment. I assumed that's the point of this entire thread. In states with full crossbow inclusion, bowhunters are quickly becoming minorities in the seasons originally established for bowhunting. That's not a good thing IMO, because the state agencies tend to put alot of clout in hunter surveys...majority rules. Personally, I'm opposed to allowing hunters that never had a desire to bowhunt dictate the future of bowhunting. If that makes me selfish....then I'm selfish.
2x pave, We started our youth shoot last night at the archery club. 64 kids shot and it will grow upwards of 75. 107 is the most we have had. 80% of the revenue buys the kids shirts, medals and a final party. The archery club membership is drastically declining because of the crossbow. We allow them but people don't shoot them for entertainment. The future generation will feel this. 3D participation is way down. Bowhunting organization's are feeling it as well. The crossbow is doing NOTHING for archery. And again thanks Pat for your stance.
blatch, you just made a great case for getting rid of primitive seasons. Embrace the high tech, one big season and use whatever you want. As seasons shorten, deer numbers drop, you will find out who the true hunters are as people find more instant gratifying things to do. In remote areas like this, trapping and hunting is not a pastime, it is a way of life we were born into, good years and bad. If killing a deer was all it was about, I would use a set-gun or a jack-light. High tech will kill bow hunting seasons, but not bow hunting for those of us who have to do it because that is what we are, bowhunters.
In reality you made the case for separate primitive seasons. Today's high-tech compounds with all the gizmos aren't much different than xbows, and surely are drastically different than a trad bow. Tell yourself otherwise and you're foolish. Funny that nobody has addressed the bigger issue of hunter recruitment, which is far more important than preserving vertical bowhunters' selfish desire to have the woods to themselves . And in CT we haven't seen any ill effects of a combined season re hunter satisfaction or an increased take. I'm no less of a hunter based on the implement I hunt with and I sincerely hope states push for increased xbow use, if for no other reason than to keep more hunters in the field. But again, that seems to be conveniently lost or glossed over by many. And unsupported comments like xbows have nothing for archery are simply false. Certainly the industry has embraced it, and for good reason as vertical bow sales fall, xbows sales rise, and more hunters enter the woods. Last, Lawdy, what percentage of bow hunters use primitive weapons? So please spare me the lecture on high how offensive high tech archery is for hunters and hunting.
BTW, these exact arguments were made by traditional bow hunters decades ago with the then newhy developed compound bow, which is drastically different than today's compound bow. Deer numbers would crash and hunting would be ruined. Simply wrong. Empty rhetoric then just as it is today. I digress.
You all are missing one point, crossguns were pushed through by the $$ efforts of the manufactures and big and small retailers (your local archery shop too by the way). and the NRA who should really have nothing to do with archery. In defence of Wisconsin we voted them down, the bureaucrats who are the ones getting greased pushed them through regardless .
"I'm no less of a hunter based on the implement I hunt with...." .
Correct, and I'll back you on that. But you may be defined as a different hunter based on a different weapon in-hand.
"....as vertical bow sales fall, xbows sales rise,"
I think this is stated opposite to the chronology. Vertical bows were the only bows in the field before crossbows arrived. They didn't drop in popularity or sales until the crossbow arrived. The legalization of crossbows has shown their tremendous acceptance and popularity....and driving down vertical bow use and sales.
I for one would like to see the documented proof that crossbows either recruit or retain more hunters versus vertical bows. Not more archery season hunters....more hunters in total. Lots of opinions on this, but can anyone cite a non-biased study, poll or independent assessment?
When it's firearms season here in Ohio, I hunt with my bow. I know other bowhunters who do too. The funny thing is that I don't think I've ever seen a guy hunting with a crossbow during firearms season. Maybe my vision is just bad. I figure it's simply a matter of trading a stocked weapon with limbs for one with a barreled action.
Blatch,,,,, we each have our own opinions.... I own a crossbow, a Parker Thunder Hawk, and I have a long bow, and a compound, all I love. But my cross bow for me, is for turkey hunting, I just think that is fun........
I believe that Wis at one time had it right. The lessor weapon rule,,,, that is, any season that allows a gun to be used, than a cross bow can be used. Or for those 65 and over or those with physical needs, or injuries, where they can obtain a permit......
The bow seasons, had a lot of history, and archers fought hard to get, the season they had. Here they are now full inclusion. It will never go back.... However our state has been keeping separate stats on the x bow..... It has not helped with, or recruited new hunters, it just allowed more guys in their 50's, go to them and gun hunters the ability to get into the rut action.......
I have to shoot all the time, to stay proficient with my bows.... My cross bow, is simply another version of a gun, except, its silent, which is why I like it for turkeys....
stay well
Blatch, I have no doubt you are a fine hunter and when you are carrying that crossbow, you still are a fine hunter. You just aren’t a bow hunter when that is in your hands, you are a crossbow hunter. States with huge deer herds need high tech to reduce CWD problems, vehicle collisions, and Lymes. Up here, on the Northern fringe of whitetail habitat, not. I was invited to hunt near Torrington, Connecticut 7 years ago by a fruit farmer my brother knew. Two days, three bucks, and 3 weeks of antibiotics for a bullseye on my leg. The farmer wanted me to kill more as he had permits. Those deer were still crawling with ticks when I got back to Northern NH. My younger brother ripped his shoulder to hell two summers ago in an accident. He is over 68 so he bought a crossbow. The first day of this fall’s rifle season in Southern NH he shot a deer with it. He called me and told me that he shot that deer at 40 yards through a 6 inch hole in the brush. His quote was, “this is not a bow, it is a gun that shoots a bolt, nothing to brag about.” Previous to his injury he shot a #60 Kodiak recurve. He is trying to work into a low poundage recurve, but it is very painful. Enjoy your crossbow Blatch and be grateful that you have a deer herd that can subsidize the advantage, except for those stinking ticks. It is your state and my opinions mean nothing there, just my opinions. With a deer density of one per square mile up here, we will fight to keep bow hunting as bow hunting because this is my state. Unfortunately, easy, like free, always wins. That is until the money or the resource crashes. God Bless and happy hunting
“That [population control] is the stated purpose of hunting. “
What a hot, stinking carload of CRAP that is!!!
“Stated” by just exactly WHOM??
Anyone with half a spark of intellectual curiosity knows damn well that there are as many “purposes” for hunting as there are Hunters - just depends how fine you’re willing to cut it.
And (FYI for the historically challenged), Archery and ML seasons - at least as originally conceived - were expected to be such low-participation and low-success endeavors that their impact on populations were not even provided for in the management equations, which only shifted their focus to population CONTROL very recently. One buck (only) tag per hunter per year has a way of leaving plenty of broodstock...
Overall, I’d categorize that whole post to be about as valid as Blatch’s “increased Crossbow sales drove their inclusion in Archery season” logic.
What bunch of BS.
Yes, I DID say that archery seasons have become the #1 tool for controlling mostly urban/suburban whitetail populations... but NOT UNTIL compounds lowered the barrier to access AND tag allocation systems allowed rifle-only hunters to expand their arsenals without forcing them to put all of their tag-filling eggs in the Archery basket.
And don’t gomme that pious-sounding “Trad Guys are just being selfish” bullschitt, either. All of you guys have been welcome from Day One; all you had to do was what everybody else who was already in it has done: Give up your rifle tag, pick up a stickbow, and do your level best to settle for nothing less than a quick, clean kill.
And you can leave the Old-Timers of Archery out of the clean kill debate - their ethics were no less restrictive than the riflemen of their day; maybe Hunting Writ Large has a few sins to atone for, but the shame for that is hardly the exclusive burden of Bowmen.
And FWIW, I don’t buy for one split second the argument that Trad Hunters EVER argued that the advancing technology would cause deer numbers to “crash”, because it was the professional responsibility of the deer managers to see to it that the herds were maintained at desirable levels.
The concern ALL ALONG was simply that making it easier and utterly painless to “cash in” on the ADDITIONAL opportunity afforded by compounds would turn the archery season into the same kind of circus that firearms seasons have always been and which many of us turned to “primitive” weapon seasons SPECIFICALLY to escape.
Difference is, we didn’t show up at the horse race on a motorcycle and ream out the horsemen for their “selfish” attitudes. And no, Blatch, it WASN’T the horsemen who paved the freakin’ track.
GF, the motorcycle/horse race analogy is dead on, especially the part referring as to who prepared the track. Great post.
Well, where are we? Scoped crossbow hunters are here, they are not bow and arrow hunters, they are scoped crossbow and bolt hunters. Time to move on, a few of us will remain as real bow and arrow hunters.
It’s an old and tired argument.There are so many different layers to this argument nobody can stay on point.
But , I’ll tell you where we are.
WE ARE ON BOWSITE.
And 1)nothing gets older than crossbow shooters clicking on a web site that is designed for archers.....
2) and ..the site has purposely avoided taking crossbow advertising ( thank you once again Pat)..... so that archery NEVER gets diluted to the point that we accept crossbows as archery.
3)and then the cross bow shooters come here and berate us . We are “ short sighted” and we are “self serving”.
Crossbows have been crowbarred into most of our hunting seasons. It seems like nothing is going to change that. I could care less about that. Shoot and hunt with what you want.
Just don’t try and pretend that crossbows are bows and arrows. Don’t try and compare them.
Just because archers have had to accept crossbows into archery season...
In no way means we have to accept crossbows as archery equipment. Most archers in the crossbow debate are simply trying to preserve archery as a sport using bows and arrows, nothing more.
Blatch, the whole hunter recruitment decree has been proved false in every state they tried that in. Every state that claimed they would gain so many new hunters, have just had shifts. I would have more respect for the crossbow crowd if they would own up to the truth of their love for it. They want to use it in archery season because it's easier. Much easier than ANY hand drawn vertical bow. There really is no skill needed to center the crosshairs and pull the trigger on a crossbow.
We screwed up when started looking at the challenge of being proficient with a bow as an obstacle instead of a big part of why a bowhunting is great.
Being hard should be the selling point, not something we try and eliminate.
Bill Obeid, those are my sentiments EXACTLY! That was a great post.
Woody Sanford is gnashing his teeth somewhere.
.
With permission of GF, I'm going to use that motorcycle-to-a-horse-race analogy until I'm dead.
Gospel
Great post by Bill Obeid.
The quote from my brother, who has a torn up shoulder that hangs over an inch lower, says it all about the crossbow. I would never try to put a wood arrow through a 6 inch opening with my longbow unless the target was a stump. Twenty yards on a calm deer is my max, and 10 yards more than what 99 percent of my shots are on the ground. Like Bill stated, this is bowsite. We are archers, and for some of us, it is pretty much all we do, baring forays into flinters. Muzzleloading forums run into the same discussions when the modern inline boys try to equate their weapons with flintlocks or period correct cap locks.
The Connecticut stats mirror those in almost every state where crossbows were legalized for use in archery-only hunting seasons. Crossbows are replacing handheld bows for a variety of reasons. Many of us tried very hard to get others to see the dangers of widespread legalization of crossbows but we were shouted down as curmudgeons who only want the season for ourselves. I hate to say that we were right.
Bill Obeid - Well said...
I will admit that you crossbow haters are a passionate group - admirable in a way.
And while I've not read every word of every post (kind of a lengthy thread), it sure seems to boil down to 2 points;
1) If you don't do archery like we do, then you are wrong!
2) Crossbows aren't archery, because we say so! They are so much different that they are really crossguns that shoot bolts (not arrows)! Yes the bow in crossbow is inconvenient as is the definition of bolt, which pretty much always includes the word arrow. Sounds like archery, smells like archery, but NO IT IS NOT - because we say so. Reminds me so much of the liberal media - change a few words here and there and all of the sudden the message, through deception, is what they want it to be. Everybody knows that the AR in AR15 stands for 'assault rifle', right? It's been printed so many times it must be true!
Occasionally, lyrics get stuck in my head. A couple come to mind.
'A haters gonna hate'
'But, he can't be a man 'cause he doesn't smoke The same cigarettes as me'
I always viewed the 2nd one at least in a joking manner - surely it was meant that way.
But seriously, enjoy archery as you see fit as I know I will.
Kevin.... I had to laugh at your post. Woody !!!
For a second. , maybe two. I thought he came back as Blatch!
KS500, funny you mention the liberal media, since you do exactly what they do in your post...throw up a big enough smokescreen that it distracts from the true issue.
We are not crossbow haters. What we do hate is the fact they are allowed in archery season. Period.
A bow is hand-drawn, hand-held. A crossbow is not.
A crossbow can be cocked and loaded for an infinite amount of time, eliminating the need for movement when preparing for a shot at an animal. The same cannot be said about a bow.
A crossbow can be placed in shooting sticks, the crosshairs of the scope centered in the bullseye, then simply squeeze the trigger. After which the shooter walks to the 50 yd target, pulls three bolts from the center of the bull, and states “yep, still on from last year”. That doesn’t happen with a bow.
I’ve yet to hear any crossbow shooter talk about the demon called target panic. Unfortunately, the same can’t be said about those that shoot a bow.
I’ve yet to see any bow marketing campaign include the catchphrase “meet your next rifle”.
If you want to shoot a crossbow where it’s legal, have a ball. Just don’t insult our intelligence by inferring that shooting a crossbow really isn’t any different than shooting a compound. You lose all credibility with that BS.
Our forefathers fought for archery seasons, big business and greed inserted the crossbow.
Just curious, did you crossbow users go to pro crossbow agenda's or just hop on the short bus?
And I'm not talking Truely handicapped hunters.
“2) Crossbows aren't archery, because we say so! ”
WRONG. Just Dead Wrong.
Crossbows existed going WAY on back; when ARCHERY seasons were established, crossbows were either A) considered and rejected or B) never even contemplated because, DUH.
Kevin - beat it ‘til it’s dead. You’re my kind o’ people.
Which reminds me....
For those of you who don’t know, Mr. Dill is BAD ASS. Before you accuse him of being some kind of “whiner”, you can just post a thread on going 2-3 weeks SOLO in Alaska for a moose and how you packed it out all by your happy little self.
That way we can dismiss all the Rowdy Dowdy wannabes from the room while the grown-ups have an intelligent conversation.
As our first topic, I suggest that we talk about the fact that so many of us crusty old farts didn’t take up Bowhunting because it was “harder” so much as because we loved shooting our bows so much that hunting with them is just an extension of that and of the choice to bowhunt was going to cost us some easy opportunities to fill a tag, then so be it.
I’m really tired of “trad” Purists beating their chests about how much “harder” it is to hunt with a bent stick. THAT’S NOT THE POINT.
The ONLY respectable reasons for hunting with a single-string are 1) you just LOVE IT so much that it’s more important to you to hunt with the equipment than it is to kill AT ALL, or 2) you’re more effective with a stickbow than with wheels anyway.
And by the way, “KX” - speaking only for myself, I don’t hate crossbows, I hate crowds. You wanna shoot a deer or Elk with a crossbow, be my guest. Just buy your rifle tag like everybody else. Lesser weapons have ALWAYS been welcome just about everywhere.
KX500 ,
There is more hate in your last post than all other posts on this thread.
You’re calling archers that don’t see crossbows as archery equipment...” haters”. When in fact ... that is not true. There are archers here who occasionally use crossbows. JL above has no problem with them! Ground Hunter uses one for turkey season. He is both an archer and a crossbow shooter. I personally don’t care that you use one to hunt deer with in the archery season.!
And Crossbows are not bows and arrows. If someone is shooting a crossbow they are a crossbow shooter.
If someone is shooting a bow they are an archer.
This country has gone crazy with “total acceptance “ and “inclusion”. Everybody thinks they’re entitled.
If you come to Bowsite and you shoot a crossbow .... don’t expect to be called an archer. Crossbow shooters that call themselves archers are nothing more than Wannabes. There is a beauty to pulling a bow back and releasing an arrow that a crossbow will never imitate.
I'm reminded of a girl who asked me to take her to a dance. I declined (ahh...rejection) and the next thing I heard was how I hated her. Rejection doesn't = hatred. I just didn't like her looks...and she was too heavy and noisy!
Bill, Matt and others...I like your straight-up style. Straight-up as in real bowhunting.
I've never said that crossbows were just as hard to use or hunt with as a compound bow. Are there differences between a compound and a crossbow, that make a crossbow easier? Yes, absolutely. I'll happily say that is a big part of why I switched. Not every body who hunts with a compound loves it so much that they will use them for the rest of their lives. I was ready for easier and apparently that makes me bad or at least not a bow hunter. The deer I've killed with a crossbow probably felt very much like they'd died due to 'archery', as that arrow slipped thru them.
And it seems to me that the whole idea behind the theme of 'crossbows don't belong in archery season' is that they are not archery. A crossbow is a bow that shoots arrows - at least one thing they have in common with a compound. We can change words around, call them guns (or the manufacturer can) but they are just simply bows shooting arrows. If crossbows aren't for you, fine. Yes compounds are harder and long bows harder still. If that is your thing, enjoy them & shoot them as long as you can.
And while I'm sure I've convinced no one, nothing that has been said here leads me to think that a crossbow isn't archery either.
And maybe the point here is even simpler. Maybe the point is simply, 'we hate crossbow hunters because there are too many of them'. That would be easier to understand but hard to fix.
Hunt elsewhere? Buy land?
Both options I've used.
I don’t know any Xbows users that care to be considered a compound shooter anymore than I know compound shooters that demand to be known as traditional shooters.
By the way... Cracks Me Up to see some BS “liberal media” reference in a post by someone who is trying to persuade us all that we should choose to ignore both the letter and the intent of the laws governing these seasons as put forth at the outset.
GF 'someone who is trying to persuade us all that we should choose to ignore both the letter and the intent of the laws'
I said ignore laws? I sure don't see that. I'll need you to explain that one.
KC500,
Youre statement that a crossbow is a bow Is partly correct. A crossbow is a hybrid. Part gun part bow. I agree that a deer killed with a bow will have the same Experience as if killed with a crossbow. But , an archer using a bow will have a totally different experience shooting a bow as compared with a shooter shooting a crossbow.
It’s mostly because of the stock and the preloaded string , but other factors too.
Also I see you switched from shooting a bow to a crossbow. We get it. Not everybody loves archery . We as archers don’t hate you , or anyone else for your choice of weapons? Lots of us use different weapons. Too many crossbow hunters? Well if you’re talking whitetail deer hunting.... there’s an estimated 30 million deer just in the U.S. i don’t know about Canada. Should be plenty to go around..... for everybody. At least for awhile. Good luck and Hunt hard
KX500, you're trying to be accepted as being or doing something that you're not. It only bothers you because it does matter to you, as much as you say otherwise. You're suffering from the "everybody gets a ribbon" philosophy. You don't have to win, come close or even try very hard to receive the same reward. With few exceptions, nobody hates crossbows or crossbow hunters, same as nobody hates shotgun or rifle hunters. But we don't want shotgun and rifle hunters in archery seasons either.
If you want to see anger, just tell a crossbow user that they are not bowhunters. The reaction will tell you that it very much matters to them to be counted in. They see it as a direct attack on their "rights" and skill as hunters. They consider it a personal attack.
There is an old German saying that goes: "If you kick a dog, only the dog yelps." Meaning that only those that do have their feelings hurt are going to cry.
The"Crossaphobia" accusation will be thrown around to shame bowhunters and to appease your own self induced feelings of inadequacy. It's the thing to do these days. Lowering the bar is much easier than reaching higher.
I don't have a problem saying what I don't like about crossbows being included in (what used to be) bow seasons...meaning 'vertical' bows only.
.
The cb is easier to achieve effective accuracy with, and therefore easier to kill game with versus a hand-drawn bow. The end result is a natural progression away from the more difficult vertical bow for many. In turn, the migration toward the crossbow drives down vertical bow interest and sales. Given the ease of accuracy with the crossbow, a LOT of former non-archery season hunters have picked it up specifically to hunt deer before and during the rut, putting more pressure on the mature buck resource in many states. In some cases the swing from firearms towards crossbows is dramatic enough to see the firearms kill leveling off or even declining somewhat. I think I see more nonresident crossbow hunters here in early/mid-November than I do firearms hunters a few weeks later. Why should any of this bother me?......
It bothers me because the trend is toward ever-easier to use archery season weapons which narrows the gap between ALL seasons. At some point a guy can wake up and know he's just as likely to kill a deer with his archery tool as any firearm he uses. When hunter success amongst various weapons achieves parity, there won't really be any defensible argument about keeping firearms out of archery season. Well...I suppose the crossbow guys could argue that guns don't belong in 'their' season, but that didn't work when users of real bows argued against crossbows. The states will chase money and results....likely leading to the scenario of more any-weapon seasons controlled by permit sales and bag limits only.
Watching this over more than 40 years, it feels to me like real bowhunters are increasingly forced to park on the outer fringes of the lot....while all those with special needs, entitlements, windshield hangers and any other potential argument for inclusion take up all the prime parking spots.
Leave bow and arrow hunting to the hunters using bows and arrows, how can that be so difficult? Crossbow hunters may be fine people, but they are not bow and arrow hunters. Pretty simple.
You all have to admit that some of these threads get pretty boring when they are completely one sided and almost nobody offers any opposing views.
Deserved or not, Bowsite is pretty widely known as pretty anti-crossbow, much like P&Y. When somebody with a pro crossbow point of view comes here, he either knows what he has coming or figures it out pretty quick. I've been in some fairly rough environments, if I couldn't take it, I wouldn't post - in spite of my inadequacies, need for acceptance and everybody gets a trophy idealism! FWIW, I received my 1st trophy at age 17 (a hard fought 3rd place in a motocross race) and of course the value of acceptance in a faceless, nameless website amongst people I'll never meet can not be overstated! Acceptance is way over rated anyway.
No, I don't want guns in archery season either, but I feel that it would be quite the leap to say 'well crossbows are in, so we should allow muzzleloaders'. I think everybody understands the difference between a bullet and an arrow.
But hey, politicians have proven themselves capable of many things that defy logic. So you never know.
well said Missouribreaks. It should be simple, but it isn't. We cant disappoint anyone anymore. So we have to let the lazy crossbow hunters into archery season at the order of politicians. Who unfortunately have more say over hunting regulations, then the input of hunters.
“Well, OK, since you’ve identified yourself as Special Needs....
If you wanna play smart-ass with me, you’re gonna need to get to work on your smart game. Seems that you have the rest down pat.
No points for originality, though. Taking partial quotes out of context text and all. I mean, REALLY? Bible-thumpers have been doing that for centuries, just like that “liberal media” by which you pretend to be so offended.
Tell you what.. you go back up and reattach the words “governing these seasons as put forth at the outset” to the half-sentence that you quoted and tell me if you’re still confused.
I may not be able to help you, but at least we’ll have established what I’m dealing with...
Yes, simply too crushed and stupid to reply. But at least I've found a role model......
"I received my 1st trophy at age 17 (a hard fought 3rd place in a motocross race"
That would have happened years before that if you were a Honda guy;)
KX500, you make some wonderful statements and cogent arguments. Semantics and etymology aside, the crossbow is closer to any vertical bow than a rifle. It is by definition a bow. The vertical bow folks are delusional to believe otherwise. But to keep avoiding that and my other points and masquerading as so-called "true archers," as comical as that may be, is quite fascinating. But hey, I suppose we are our own lexicographers and believe and define what we want. So the chest-beating, vertical guys shooting 80% let off compounds with caron fiber arrows, lighted nocks, expandables, stabilizers, and lighted sights (query how many other techy gizmos I can rattle off) really aren't much different than the cross-"bow" folks, at least from a technology perspective. Telling yourself otherwise is absurd, but your perogative. An arrow is an arrow, and is drastically different than a bullet. I encourage you to take a simple physics class and compare arrow flight and bullet flight trajectory for starters. I think you'll be astounded. Pretty simple stuff and easy to see and appreciate the difference. And I'm no surgeon, but I'm pretty sure my xbow arrow kills in the same manner as an arrow released from a vertical bow. And that manner is drastically different than a bullet. Please correct me if I'm off. More significantly, however, nobody seems to want to seriously address my points re hunter recruitment and and keeping more hunters in the woods, separate and apart from the direct and tangential benefits from enhanced xbow archer license sale revenue. For the record, I know of at least 3 junior, non-rifle hunters that expressed no interest in vertical nows, but gravitated to the crossbow. They already demonstrate exceptional hunting skills and ethics, and will make fine hunters. More importantly, they represent a generation that seemingly has little desire for anything hunting related. The sad reality is that, in my opinion, the vertical bow folks simply don't want more archers (yes, by definition, legally and colloquially, xbow hunters are archers, as recognized by numerous states) in the woods. Call it selfish, but that's the sad truth. I'd welcome cogent, well developed thoughts and response, but please spare me the empty rhetoric that rings hollow, and definitely save the personal attacks that do nothing to advance a position and really only detract from it.
Blatch, two questions for you. If a crossbow is more related to a bow then a gun why does N.Y. require you to purchase a muzzleloader tag to hunt with a crossbow? Second, have you asked the 3 junior hunters why the prefer a crossbow over a vertical bow? Id be interested in their answers.
B/C the NY bow hunters lobbied more aggressively, but give it time. In CT, it's archery and the season is combined. Please re-read my post really arrows and bullets, killing mechanism. That folks really believe cross-"bows" are more like a rifle or ML than a vertical bow is rediculous. Re your othet question, I didn't make that specific inquiry, but will do so for your edification.
"really aren't much different than the cross-"bow" folks, at least from a technology perspective."
Except I cannot draw my bow, leave it cocked, steady against a rest, settle the crosshairs on the vitals, stock nestled in my shoulder, hand wrapped around the pistol grip or stock, flick the safety off, and squeeze the trigger, smiling at my next "100 yard rifle".
"Telling yourself otherwise is absurd, but your perogative." Indeed.
“Please re-read my post really arrows and bullets, killing mechanism. That folks really believe cross-"bows" are more like a rifle or ML than a vertical bow is rediculous. “
That argument doesn’t work. If you base your argument on that ......
Then an airgun....( which happens to shoot arrows) Should be considered an archery weapon. That’s not the case. You can’t base a weapon on the projectile it shoots. Otherwise , you have to concede to our argument that putting the gun stocked crossbow to your shoulder constitutes a gun. Thats how every bow shooter feels.
“the crossbow is closer to any vertical bow than a rifle. It is by definition a bow. “
That’s your definition. Here’s what Wikipedia and Merriams says
“A crossbow is a type of ranged weapon based on the bow and consisting of a horizontal bow-like assembly mounted on a frame which is handheld in a similar fashion to the stock of a gun.”
Crossbows are a hybrid. Part bow & part gun. If it’s shot like a gun , it’s more gun than bow.
I had to laugh at some of the comments on here. Public land deer numbers are NOT exploding - that's just ignorance. Private land yes probably in some areas and that is because of GREED and not allowing folks to hunt it like once was common. If deer populations are exploding a simple fix is to allow hunters on private lands.
You know, to me it's not necessarily whether the weapon is archery related. Certain types of technology within archery are not permitted in archery seasons. Limits are placed on things like broadheads, bow poundage, lights and electronics, and other components or devices which somehow can be utilized by archers but are made out of bounds by hunters or state hunting laws. I easily recall when Ohio didn't allow triggers of any kind in archery seasons. My point is that arguing something is archery or is related to archery doesn't necessarily make it right for inclusion into bowhunting seasons. I'm relatively sure I could create a remote release device allowing a tripod-mounted crossbow to be fired with no physical contact by the shooter. Should it be legal for use in bowhunting seasons? Some would say it makes no difference as long as it interests hunters and there is an animal needing shot.
"Should it be legal for use in bowhunting seasons? Some would say it makes no difference as long as it interests hunters and there is an animal needing shot." - That dovetails into your (I believe) earlier statement about license sales and herd data dictating "all weapons" seasons in many states. Irrespective of opinions, declining license sales combined with rising animal numbers will eventually render that outcome.
"More significantly, however, nobody seems to want to seriously address my points re hunter recruitment and and keeping more hunters in the woods"
Several people in this thread including myself have addressed your recruitment points. They are fake news.
Maine is debating a bill to include crossbows right now. Wow, I never thought that would happen.
crossbow is already part of n.y. archery season. But in order to hunt with the crossbow you must purchase a muzzleloader stamp. So I would think that N.Y. sees the crossbow as closer to muzzle loader than a bow. Just an observation.
crossbow is already part of n.y. archery season. But in order to hunt with the crossbow you must purchase a muzzleloader stamp. So I would think that N.Y. sees the crossbow as closer to muzzle loader than a bow. Just an observation.
oops think I double posted.
Ohio doesn't have separate tags or licenses for archery versus firearms, or for crossbow versus vertical bows. What Ohio DOES have is a check-in system which tracks the method of kill for each deer or turkey taken. The crossbow is listed as a separate and distinct weapon, apart from all other bows which are collectively classed as 'longbows'. Hunters are required to disclose the weapon they used for each reported deer taken. The data allows the state to see the progression of crossbow kills and percentages over the decades. The supposed rationale for keeping separate records may have something to do with adjusting the seasons or bag limits for the crossbow if the state ever determined it to be necessary.
Ohio is a one buck state? Im sure their DNR ,DEC does a better job than N.Y. Truth of the matter is its all about $$$$.
One buck per season here. I think the state does a pretty decent job of managing deer, though some will disagree. The major thing I notice versus 30 years ago?.....Come November the rural roads remind me of the old shotgun season of the '70s and '80s. There are untold numbers of nonresident trucks, trailers, atvs, treestands and crossbows flooding in here just before the peak of the rut. It's actually no more busy during our firearms season to my eye. It concerns me that so many hunters are taking to the woods with crossbows during the most vulnerable period of our mature bucks' year...the rut....which has never seen as much hunting pressure as it now gets.
If it isn’t hand drawn and held until the arrow is released then it shouldn’t be in the Archery season.
More nuance and less bull shit.
Was one buck when I started hunting, bow or rifle. Insurance companies here have more say in hunting limits than sportsman do. TV has done a lot to have hunters flock to states like Ohio, Kentucky,Missouri, etc. Everyone wants to shoot a big buck,regardless of cost. I can kill deer where I live, that's good enough for me.
How about for those of us who can no longer shoot a vertical bow? I would give about anything to be able to “bow” hunt again but severe shoulder damage has ended those days for me unfortunately
"How about for those of us who can no longer shoot a vertical bow? I would give about anything to be able to “bow” hunt again but severe shoulder damage has ended those days for me unfortunately"
I don't think there is person that has posted in this thread, that is against CB's for the handicapped and elderly.
Absolutely have no problem with people who are truly unable to shoot a bow. But unfortunately that makes up a small % of crossbow hunters.
