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Calculating average group size
Equipment
Contributors to this thread:
RD in WI 29-Dec-18
Scar Finga 29-Dec-18
JTV 29-Dec-18
GF 29-Dec-18
skookumjt 29-Dec-18
RD in WI 29-Dec-18
cnelk 29-Dec-18
x-man 29-Dec-18
Native Okie 29-Dec-18
cnelk 29-Dec-18
Scar Finga 30-Dec-18
x-man 30-Dec-18
GF 30-Dec-18
Bou'bound 30-Dec-18
Shawn 30-Dec-18
RD in WI 30-Dec-18
Matt 30-Dec-18
skookumjt 30-Dec-18
Bou'bound 30-Dec-18
Scar Finga 30-Dec-18
Bou'bound 30-Dec-18
JTV 30-Dec-18
Buffalo1 30-Dec-18
buckfevered 30-Dec-18
BoggsBowhunts 30-Dec-18
Matt 30-Dec-18
Bou'bound 31-Dec-18
From: RD in WI
29-Dec-18
I need some advice on the best way to calculate average group size. I know how to calculate an average, I am just looking for how bow shooters on this site do it for themselves. How many groups are you shooting and how many arrows per group before you declare what your average group size is? Also, I have read some posts wherein a person declares themselves a mediocre shot - if you have done this, what criteria are you using? Thank you.

From: Scar Finga
29-Dec-18
I shoot three or four arrows... 3"@ 20 yards, 4" at 30 yards, 5 @ 40, 6 @ 50... etc. For most guys I think this is realistic. I strive for better than that. I like to be able to blow arrows up at 40-50 yards if I want. so I strive for -3" at 50... I may not allows achieve it, but that's what I want. I don't aim at the same spot every time.

From: JTV
29-Dec-18
out side edge of arrow to the outside edge of arrow ... 3 groups .... I shoot 3 arrow groups ... I strive for 1 MOA groups in archery terms... 2" at 20 yds, 3" at 30" yds, etc .... many times I hit that goal, some times better, sometimes I do not, but that dosnt mean I'm a bad shot either ... indoor 300 leagues, I average 298-300 with mid 40 spots ... sometimes I do better, sometimes I royally screw it up ...

From: GF
29-Dec-18

GF's embedded Photo
Fist-wide at 50 - 3 shots into let's call it 4"
GF's embedded Photo
Fist-wide at 50 - 3 shots into let's call it 4"
GF's embedded Photo
4 into a finger at 30
GF's embedded Photo
4 into a finger at 30
GF's embedded Photo
A bunch into my brace height at 65
GF's embedded Photo
A bunch into my brace height at 65
I don't take it too seriously, because if you're shooting 3-4 blade BH and the blades intersect, how much tighter do you want?

Best bet is to measure using what you've got handy. This ain't bench rest...

From: skookumjt
29-Dec-18
MOA is 1" at 100 yards. Sub 3 inches at 50 yards is well above the ability of 99% of archers. Someone that can shoot 60x indoor rounds would struggle to shoot 3" groups at 50.

From: RD in WI
29-Dec-18
A minute of angle for each 10 yard increment sounds like a good measuring stick. I have a rifle that always shoots below an inch at 100 yards but my consistency with bow begins to wane at 50 yards and beyond. Last spring (2018) was my first year shooting past 30 yards and I expect to improve this spring and summer and keep it together at 50 and beyond. Still hoping to hear from some of the guys who consider their shooting "mediocre" to see what their criteria is for that label or if they are just being humble. Thanks for the input thus far.

From: cnelk
29-Dec-18
I use MOE.

Minute Of Elk. 0 - 60yds

From: x-man
29-Dec-18
I like to shoot at a clean paper target face. Shoot a 300 round, take the target face off, turn it over, measure the distance of the group diameter. This is my "real" group size, not my internet group size. Lots of guys on the net claiming small group sizes. Some guys even post pictures of small group sizes. Please don't be fooled into thinking that is the norm. In general, most people only brag about things they usually can't do.

1" per ten yards is a good goal. Be happy when you reach it. Don't be sad if you don't.

From: Native Okie
29-Dec-18
“Lots of guys on the net claiming small group sizes”

Lots of guys on the net discrediting tech advice from hunting magazines as well.Know any of those? ;^)

From: cnelk
29-Dec-18
I think Curt is still waiting for 'his best shot' too.

From: Scar Finga
30-Dec-18
(EDIT) Gents, After re-reading my original post... I did sound a litlle boastful. That was not my intention! I am very mediocre! I am not bragging, boasting or implying that I am a superior archer in any way! I am definitely not! I didn't say I can do it all the time/ or everytime, I Didn't say they where all in ten ring. I said that is what I strive for! That is a huge differance! We probably all need stop reading into something that wasn't said. and take things with a grain of salt. But Good Grief people on here like to blow stuff way out of proportion!

To shoot like that takes a ton of discipline, dedication and lots and lots of practice.... I don't have that luxary right now.

I have been rebuilding a boat and remodeling my house and haven't been shooting much., the way I am shooting right now, my effect range is probably 40 yards. I am probably doing 4-5" groups at 40-50 yards with an occasioanl flyer (I hate those) not all in the 10 ring... Not bad, but not what I like or "Strive For"

Oh I do like being able to blow up arrows if I choose too, I just can't do it all the time:/

God Bless.

From: x-man
30-Dec-18
You'l have to forgive me for not pouring gas on Curt's fire. That wasn't going to end well for him. He could have taken the high road there and realized his magazine was in the small percentage of magazines with a history of good tech advise. Instead, a high profile magazine editor took a child-like personal stab at me on a public forum. It's best to let that thread rest rather than get Curt fired. Prior to that thread, I had nothing but high regard for Curt. I can only hope that somebody else had control of his account that day.

From: GF
30-Dec-18
Ummmm... Fellas?

There’s no such thing as “MOA in archery terms”. It’s an absolute: 360 degrees in a circle; 60 minutes in a degree.

So 1” at 10 yards or 10” at 100 yards or 100” at 1,000 yards is 10 MOA. Period.

And it’s quite good for archery, but not many of us would hunt with a 5 MOA rifle.

From: Bou'bound
30-Dec-18
The first in the lungs is the only group worth measuring

From: Shawn
30-Dec-18
I agree with bou!! I also agree the internet talk is a lot of garbage. Even the best shooters struggle to shoot 3"s at 60 yards. Some do no doubt but not as many that say they do on the internet. Also there is a world of difference between using a hunting bow and a target bow when it comes to shooting a 300 round. I shoot with a guy who has won everything at one time or another, Vegas, the Worlds etc. I know with with his target bow he has shot something like 2000 X's in a row. With his hunting rig he shoots 290's to 300 but maybe 45 or 50Xs. Shawn

From: RD in WI
30-Dec-18
Thanks for all the input. I am not aware of the thread that x-man referenced; I am intrigued but understand if the hatchet has been buried. So far, the inch group per 10 yards of range seems to have pretty good support and I know that this differs from deflating a pair of lungs on a cold morning. I am just trying to see what members of this site consider good/acceptable shooting for themselves so I have a guide for comparison to my own standard, which I have yet to firmly establish. Some of the shooters on this site post some excellent pictures of their efforts on the range and it is interesting to me to hear how they practice and what standards they place on themselves. Thanks again to all.

From: Matt
30-Dec-18
I shoot 3 shot groups, pull the middle arrow and measure outside to inside of the 2 remaining arrows. I too strive to average archer's MOA (1" or less per 10 yards).

From: skookumjt
30-Dec-18
Less than a handful of people have been capable of shooting 2000 X's straight, and they would all shoot their hunting bows nearly equally.

From: Bou'bound
30-Dec-18
Does shooting thicker or thinner diameter arrows make a difference when you measure these groups

From: Scar Finga
30-Dec-18
Only if you are cutting lines on targets or 3-d's Not in the hunting world!

From: Bou'bound
30-Dec-18
I don’t know ......it seems like it would be more accurate to measure from the center of the arrow not the far edge when measuring those practice groups

From: JTV
30-Dec-18
GF, there is if we say there is and that is what WE call it ... 1" @ 10yds.. 2" @ 20yds ... 3" @ 30yds, etc. = Archery MOA ... ;0) .........

From: Buffalo1
30-Dec-18
On this grouping measurement are we talking FP's or BH's?

From: buckfevered
30-Dec-18
Bou, I believe that’s the intent when measuring outside edge to inside edge, in effect, center to center.

30-Dec-18
As far as the actual measuring goes, when we do rifle groups we measure outside to outside, then subtract the bullet diameter. For example, if you're shooting a .30 caliber bullet, and outside to outside is 1.00", then the group size would be 0.70". The same 1.00" outside to outside shot out of a .243 would yield a .757" group. This will get you the same number as true center to center, although trying to eyeball exact center to exact center would be nearly impossible. All the big time long range guys I know always use the "outside to outside then subtract diameter" method, but measuring outside to inside should show the same result.

As far as saying "I shoot a ____ MOA group" I usually run atleast 5, 3 round groups through a rifle, then average those.

From: Matt
30-Dec-18
"Does shooting thicker or thinner diameter arrows make a difference when you measure these groups"

Not if you measure properly.

From: Bou'bound
31-Dec-18
Thanks for the clarification

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