Sitka Mountain Gear
Limiting technology?
Equipment
Contributors to this thread:
Ucsdryder 29-Dec-18
drycreek 29-Dec-18
Burly 29-Dec-18
Ucsdryder 29-Dec-18
wyobullshooter 29-Dec-18
Treeline 29-Dec-18
Ucsdryder 29-Dec-18
bdfrd24v 29-Dec-18
Buffalo1 29-Dec-18
drycreek 29-Dec-18
yooper89 29-Dec-18
Ucsdryder 29-Dec-18
Buffalo1 29-Dec-18
cnelk 29-Dec-18
Glunt@work 30-Dec-18
Bou'bound 30-Dec-18
DanaC 30-Dec-18
ground hunter 30-Dec-18
Missouribreaks 30-Dec-18
WV Mountaineer 30-Dec-18
Kevin Dill 30-Dec-18
Bowboy 30-Dec-18
Charlie Rehor 30-Dec-18
Bowhunter 30-Dec-18
lawdy 30-Dec-18
320 bull 30-Dec-18
PECO 30-Dec-18
Dale06 30-Dec-18
GF 30-Dec-18
8point 30-Dec-18
Bowhunter 30-Dec-18
Timbrhuntr 30-Dec-18
LBshooter 30-Dec-18
Ucsdryder 30-Dec-18
LBshooter 30-Dec-18
Ambush 30-Dec-18
Jaquomo 30-Dec-18
MichaelArnette 30-Dec-18
Ambush 30-Dec-18
MichaelArnette 30-Dec-18
oldgoat 30-Dec-18
Missouribreaks 30-Dec-18
Jaquomo 30-Dec-18
Ambush 30-Dec-18
Treeline 30-Dec-18
Boreal 30-Dec-18
Missouribreaks 30-Dec-18
tradmt 30-Dec-18
Jaquomo 30-Dec-18
Treeline 30-Dec-18
spike78 30-Dec-18
M.Pauls 30-Dec-18
Matt 30-Dec-18
Shawn 30-Dec-18
Steve Leffler 30-Dec-18
bigdog21 30-Dec-18
Ambush 30-Dec-18
Treeline 30-Dec-18
Matt 30-Dec-18
Matt 30-Dec-18
GF 30-Dec-18
Chris Walker 30-Dec-18
Franklin 30-Dec-18
Kevin Dill 30-Dec-18
jdbbowhunter 30-Dec-18
Steve Leffler 30-Dec-18
Franklin 30-Dec-18
spike78 30-Dec-18
happygolucky 30-Dec-18
Missouribreaks 30-Dec-18
Kevin Dill 30-Dec-18
lawdy 30-Dec-18
SB 30-Dec-18
kadbow 31-Dec-18
Bowriter 31-Dec-18
happygolucky 31-Dec-18
Rocky D 31-Dec-18
Bill Obeid 31-Dec-18
12yards 31-Dec-18
Bowriter 31-Dec-18
Ucsdryder 31-Dec-18
bowyer45 31-Dec-18
Catscratch 31-Dec-18
Bob Hildenbrand 31-Dec-18
Ziek 31-Dec-18
Matt 31-Dec-18
Buglmin 31-Dec-18
Jethro 31-Dec-18
Catscratch 31-Dec-18
Ambush 31-Dec-18
Matt 31-Dec-18
Missouribreaks 31-Dec-18
TD 31-Dec-18
Matt 31-Dec-18
lv2bohunt 31-Dec-18
Missouribreaks 31-Dec-18
Silverback 31-Dec-18
Matt 31-Dec-18
JusPassin 31-Dec-18
Missouribreaks 31-Dec-18
WapitiBob 31-Dec-18
Bill Obeid 31-Dec-18
APauls 31-Dec-18
Bowriter 31-Dec-18
TD 02-Jan-19
From: Ucsdryder
29-Dec-18
Inline muzzleloaders shooting out to 700-800 yards.

Rifles shooting out to 1000 yards.

Bows shooting to 100 yards.

Very simple question. Would you be in favor of limiting technology? In the sense of limiting the range of bows, ML, and rifles? What would hunting season look like if rifles used open sights, ML were flint lock, and bows where stick bows?

From: drycreek
29-Dec-18
Wounding would increase, that's what would happen. Legislation for self restraint has never worked. Remember prohibition ? It's illegal to use drugs, but it ain't stopping drug use. Illegal to tresspass, hunt out of season, but that doesn't stop it. Illegal to murder. Detroit ? Chicago ?

From: Burly
29-Dec-18
Sounds good to me :)

From: Ucsdryder
29-Dec-18
Drycreek, that’s an interesting thought. I just don’t see guys using inline ML if the law required flint lock. I mean, why not just use a rifle then? Either way you’re breaking the law. Same with archery. If the law stated stick bows why carry around a compound?

29-Dec-18
The genie’s out of the bottle. He ain’t goin’ back in.

From: Treeline
29-Dec-18
I think you’re full of it, drycreek.

There are guys that can kill stuff and guys that can’t - no matter the weapon or tech. Tech limits would separate the men from the boys very quickly. Wounding rates would probably stay about the same.

UCSdryder,

Hell yea! Quality would improve rapidly and within a few years, we would see much better hunting for mature animals. We could have much longer seasons. I’d love to see how a selfbow and stone point only season would work out:-)

From: Ucsdryder
29-Dec-18
Treeline, kind of my thinking... I’ll use every technology I can...but I’d go to the struggle stick in a second if they change it.

From: bdfrd24v
29-Dec-18
The technology is here to stay. I hunt with all kinds of weapons. Enjoy them all.

Today I didn’t take my recurve as the wind made me go to a stand I didn’t think I would have a shot inside 15 yds. I took my compound. Turns out I had a nice doe at 8yds. Didn’t shoot her though because I want to save that tag for my recurve. Personal choice.

I don’t see anything changing these distances people are shooting with today’s technology. I also don’t hunt much with my flintlock though as I find it inferior to a good bow. Again personal choice.

We should toss in moving cross guns to rifle season though. I would be in favor of that.

From: Buffalo1
29-Dec-18
The effectiveness of anything is still on the shoulders of the user. Being capable and being able maximize potential/use are two different things.

From: drycreek
29-Dec-18
Treeline, think what you want, it's still a partially free country. But if you think technology is ever gonna be limited, you need to roll those joints a little looser, you're getting too much smoke.

From: yooper89
29-Dec-18
I know it’ll never happen but I wouldn’t be opposed to it. I actually would love to get out with a lever action and iron sights. Same goes for archery. I used to shoot a recurve when I was in high school in the UP but went away from archery for awhile during college. When I moved to CO I picked up a compound again and haven’t gotten back into “traditional” archery yet. Plan to, when I can afford a decent setup.

From: Ucsdryder
29-Dec-18
Buffalo, I completely disagree. If you don’t believe me, watch some YouTube videos. Guys fling arrows and bullets that they have no right releasing. Guys aren’t going to be making 600-1000 yard shots with open sights. I do agree that technology is probably here to stay.

From: Buffalo1
29-Dec-18
You are proposing the same argument about guns and bows as people are about golf equipment and limiting the distance of the ball.

Sounds good, but ain’t happening.

From: cnelk
29-Dec-18
Sure sounds romantic. No way it will take place.

Remember the rearview mirror is smaller than the windshield for a reason

From: Glunt@work
30-Dec-18
We tried it once. We started hunting with simple bows and arrows on purpose even though we had access to rifles. It created something fantastic. We all have the choice to do this right now. It's simply not what most people want.

Wounding rates wouldn't change. The portion of wounding that comes from folks extending their shot choices beyond their range ability has nothing to do with the weapon. A guy proficient out to 600 yards with his rifle but trying a 1000 yard shot or a guy proficient out to 20 yards with his self bow but trying a 35 yard shot are basically the same.

From: Bou'bound
30-Dec-18
If you did those things I honestly believe that most hunting season would end up going away because so few people would participate and have a stake in keeping them going that we may lose our right to hunt in many places

with everything that is available today Hunters still represent about 10% of the US population maybe a shade more when you Count small game only but big game hunters are about 10%

you get much lower than that and you run the risk of becoming too itrelevant to even have a voice

From: DanaC
30-Dec-18
I agree with Buffalo1. Having a 'thousand yard' rifle doesn't make you a thoudand yard *shooter*. Most compound bows are easily capable of scoring a 300 on an IBO course, but most shooters are not.

That said, choosing *any* bow is limiting relative to the effective range of any modern long gun (the smooth-bore shotgun with piss-poor sights being the exception here.)

I also agree that crossbows have no place in the archery deer season. If that puts me at odds with the handicapped and those even older than myself, so be it. When I can no longer draw a legal hunting bow I'll stop bowhunting. (I'm 65 and still draw a 50 pound recurve.)

30-Dec-18
I really think in all reality, of the real world, the average guy, justT is not shooting those distances, including crossbows.... For one, most guys are hunting areas, where the distance of the shot, is not even possible due to terrain, and those that can, most don't.

I have two ML... one is percussion Hawken, the other is a in line TC..... they both take the same time, same procedure to load. The difference is the in line has a protected primer....... both are capable of shooting 200 yards.... never killed anything beyond 100 with either.......... In the late 1700's with german engineering, and now a rifled barrel,, the mountain boys, were in the militia, killing British officers, at 300 yards, open sights. think about that.............. I have a book, called "Letters from a Sharpshooter", the true diary of a 17 year old sniper in the Civil War, that he sent home. With a precision rifle, he killed hundreds of Union soldiers, from and up to 500 yards

Yet the average guy continued to shoot well under 100...... today the same goes with compounds etc.........................................

I am against govt regulations, we have enough of them, in fact too many

30-Dec-18
Too late my friends.

30-Dec-18
I dont think wounding would increase too much for a couple reason. First, we’d loose about 90% of all hunters. Second, you still gotta execute. While tech makes that easier for some, its also a hinderance for most of those that would stay in it. It might make shooting at 40 yards more accurate on paper. What it wont do is change hunting accuracy and selfimposed limits.

No matter what you hunt with, you still have to execute it to do your part. I hear how rifle hunting is too easy. Maybe it is setting a food plot or in country where your glass doesthe hunting. However, until you’ve tried getting on, shooting, and killing a animal moving through thick timber chasing, running, or even walking with intent, at a range near maximum visibilty, youd never understand that.

From: Kevin Dill
30-Dec-18
The world is running to embrace new technology in almost every aspect of life. Taken on the whole, hunting is no different. Tech is not a new development in bowhunting, but the amount and rapidity of it means bowhunting is evolving dramatically now. Certainly people are finding ways to block some technologies they oppose, but to me it’s like trying to oppose gravity. Sometimes I wonder if the whole deal (applied to bowhunting) won’t be circular.....meaning give technology enough rope and it will eventually hang itself, leading to a decline in interest. But then I realize it probably won’t happen that way as long as someone keeps finding a way to propel something that vaguely resembles an arrow.

From: Bowboy
30-Dec-18
Ain't gonna happen. Would it be nice yes.

30-Dec-18
Maybe I’ll open a Blacksmith shop.

From: Bowhunter
30-Dec-18
I think it would be great! They have a couple of hunts in oregon where they have done just that. They have 2 traditional archery archery only hunts.

From: lawdy
30-Dec-18
Too late. The only answer to technology is shorter seasons or no special seasons at all. You want to see kill numbers drop in spite of high tech, ban tree stands, allow only natural blinds, and ban baiting. That is how I hunt, but the reality is that people would quit hunting, buying licenses, and in the end, I would lose as the antis took over. I avoid the baiters who make deer hard to pattern and become very nocturnal, by hunting deep where very few have the ambition to walk. Those deep woods house very few deer, but there are some monsters out there that stay up in the mountains until long after deer season. I ran into a huge buck this week hare hunting 12 miles in on a logging road when my beagle took a hare up on a ridge.

From: 320 bull
30-Dec-18
Is that concept not a band aid solution to a much more difficult to tackle problem? I am not for regulation used to address underlying problems so no I would not support it.

From: PECO
30-Dec-18
Ban trail cameras and naming of deer also.

From: Dale06
30-Dec-18
I’m in favor of some restrictions on technology. I have a friend that routinely kills deer at 400 plus yards with his bolt action in line muzzle loader, during the “primitive weapons season”. It’s as accurate and has the range and accuracy of most centerfire rifles. Yes I am familiar with the 1000 yard guns. What those restrictions should be is up for debate., but I’d start with iron sights on muzzle loaders. I’d put cross bows in the muzzle loader season, and have let off restrictions on hand held at draw bows.

From: GF
30-Dec-18
Yooper - just FYI: you can buy an entirely satisfactory 3-pc TD recurve or longbow for under $120 - Brand Freakin’ New. No, it won’t be a Marvel of American Hand-Made Craftsmanship, turned out to your own specifications.... but it will shoot just about as well.

So what are you waiting for?

And JMO...

Archery and ML seasons ALWAYS HAVE BEEN about limiting technology (duh!).

The laws were originally written when ALL muzzleloaders were either antiques or reproductions and (likewise) ALL bows were the functional and ballistic equivalents of technology that was hundreds (of not thousands) of years old.

Inlines, scopes, sabots, pelletized powder and pistol bullets may have existed, but they weren’t expressly prohibited simply because everybody KNEW what a muzzleloader WAS and nobody anticipated the market for exploiting legal loopholes that brought us smokeless inlines with centerfire ballistics.

Crossbows DID exist at the time, and were specifically and deliberately excluded as NOT ARCHERY. Mechanical releases were likewise excluded.

So JMO, Bring It On!

I’ve got the .54 and plenty of powder & ball ready to go. I’ve got 3 longbows and 3 Recurves on the rack, too. And a Marlin lever in .45/70, for that matter.

I’m ready to PLAY! :D

All I ask is one tag per year, and a chance to indicate a preference.

From: 8point
30-Dec-18
I believe if you need to kill something bad enough that you use all the legal technology available to achieve that end, that's your choice. If you consider the hunt a challenge by meeting game on equal footing that's hunting. I get a kick out of watching the shows where the "hunter" sets up 700 yards from an elk or deer, and the guys whisper to each other. I guess it gives them a sense that they are (hunting).

From: Bowhunter
30-Dec-18
And I second treeline’s selfbow stone point season:))

From: Timbrhuntr
30-Dec-18
Crossbows DID exist at the time, and were specifically and deliberately excluded as NOT ARCHERY.

Early crossbows were also considered with their shorter power stroke and arrows to be less powerful and some believe not able to kill large game effectively kinda like trad bows originally . Speaking in terms of limited technology LOL

From: LBshooter
30-Dec-18
It's not to late, however, the market will give the consumer what they want. So, if hunters buy it the more you'll see of it. More wounding with less tech, I see more wounding when guys are taking 100 yard shots with bows and thousand yard shots with rifles.

From: Ucsdryder
30-Dec-18
It sure would be fun to dream about. Imagine if Colorado for example changed a couple units to primitive. Stick bows, flint lock, and open sight rifles. Pick 4-5 units. In 5 years I bet the trophy quality would be out of sight and guys would be lining up for a chance to chase mule deer and elk in those units.

From: LBshooter
30-Dec-18
It's not to late, however, the market will give the consumer what they want. So, if hunters buy it the more you'll see of it. More wounding with less tech, I see more wounding when guys are taking 100 yard shots with bows and thousand yard shots with rifles.

From: Ambush
30-Dec-18
I don't accept the oft used argument that ",,,it's just easier, so they use it..". For many it's just a preference. Some people love to tinker with and drive old cars, others build up 4X4's and still others like to add as much hi-tech HP as they can. They do it because it gives them pleasure and excitement. A few are definitely"exploiters", but they'd be the same guys that would cheat at the race track or on the range.

Pursuing your sport, your way, does not make you a better or more pure person than anyone else. It's a choice. YOUR choice. Same as me and MY choice. It's pretty easy to see who on here pursues their choice out of a passion for it and who does it to feel superior to other's. Why does a dyed-in -the-wool trad hunter also use a muzzle loader that has five times the effective range as his long bow? Or shoot a long range center fire. Because he LIKES to shoot them also.

I have a lot of respect and admiration for the dedicated trad guys that hunt a variety of game in a variety of landscapes and stick to the plan. Same for the compound shooter that is on the last day of a big hunt and turns down the guides rifle, knowing he'd be disappointed in himself if he took it. On the other side of the coin, it doesn't bother me if a bow hunter takes the guide's rifle and kills that archery unreachable ram or billy. As long as HE is happy about the outcome!! Once he starts apologizing, I'm out because that means he's not really satisfied either.

I've got a couple of compounds, one old Browning recurve and a warf franken-bow. Last spring my buddy and I both decided to kill one of our spring bears with a single string and we did. No baiting allowed here, but bears are plentiful and probably on about par with turkeys for many of you guys. It was fun and we both killed bears, but we both concluded that it wasn't any more fun than a big bear at thirty yards with a compound and we both enjoy shooting a compound more. Might try a long bow this spring.

I definitely agree that some technology has been used to take advantage. A compound to trad is like a cap to flint lock. An in-line is like a crossbow to a compound. A thousand yard rifle, for game, is way more target shooting than hunting and where I draw the line.

Can you be accurate with a single string at fifty yards? Sure, Olympians do it all the time at ninety. But not many Olympians stalking the deer woods. Not many people playing sports are major league material either, just a few elites.

I think wounding rates would go up for a couple of years and then participation would just drop way off, at which point the masses would eliminate the few. Probably suit a few just fine as their little world would be more peaceful for the rest of their self-centered lives.

I would also have no problem with some trad only areas or seasons. After all, we are all "special interest" groups and I support that. And soon the trad guys would be fighting about what trad really was. lol.

From: Jaquomo
30-Dec-18
Many of our archery forefather "heroes" worshiped today were unethical, immoral arrow-flinging slobs (by today's internet standards) who just hoped to get an arrow in an animal somewhere. Wounding wasn't a concern, as much as running out of arrows on a day's hunt. Anybody who thinks they wouldn't have used the hunting technology available today, and maxed-out the possibilities, is fooling themselves.

We can dress up in our quaint little Fred Bear costumes and imagine we are time travelers from yesteryear, but technology marches on, just as it has since fire and the wheel. Unless it affects wildlife populations adversely, and consequently hunting opportunity, I can't tell someone "my technology is ok, but yours is not". That's what the Taliban does.

30-Dec-18
Yes please! Make it stop! Particularly when it comes to public land. Private land is different.

And I definitely agree! It doesn’t have to be state wide it could be several units. Some of us would like to be able to hunt every other year or so and not being able to have the range effectiveness would be worth it to have the experience.

Range effectiveness has more than doubled for every type of weapon in the last 30 years

From: Ambush
30-Dec-18
I do have to chuckle when someone says "I hunt this way because it's harder" and then moans when some one else's choice makes it just a little harder yet.

30-Dec-18
Ambush, you wouldn’t expect to bring your 7 mm mag into muzzie season would you? Are hunting laws here in the US are a beautiful thing, they allow the use of different methods with respective levels of restrictions and season length/tag.

The truth is that technology is splitting the bowhunting community. That doesn’t make one group better than the other But the reality is the difference in a compound bows affectiveness and a recurve/longbow has become drastic.

I am what most people would consider a good shot with a traditional bow but if you put me next to someone I consider a good shot with a compound at the target range and handed us both a rangefinder his or her group at 60 would compare to my 30 yard...And that’s on a good day for me.

It’s time we shook hands and separated at least on a trial basis (set aside a few units/areas) where tags are limited in the west.

And as far as muzzleloaders are concerned that season has become a joke. Flintlock or percussion or get out in my opinion but I don’t participate so we can let those guys figure it out.

From: oldgoat
30-Dec-18
I would just like to see some primitive only opportunities in my state! Like even just set aside a mediocre unit. But that will screw somebody and it probably won't happen, but heck even if they just set aside a SWA like they do in Oklahoma it would be nice!

30-Dec-18
Interesting how certain states are ok with technology such as scoped crossbows for all hunters, but they don't want them in their state.

From: Jaquomo
30-Dec-18
Michael, so only self-bows would be allowed in your dream season, right? No R/D longbows or laminated recurves, no Fastflight strings, no carbon, aluminum, or fiberglass arrows, no modular replaceable blade broadheads? Which branch of the Trad Taliban (love that, Pat!) woukd make the rules? And what's to stop us from taking 100 yard shots like our heroes used to do?

Technology isn't splitting the bowhunting community. What is splitting it is a small group of hunters who can't stand the fact that others use legal tools that make them more accurate, more effective, and more successful.

From: Ambush
30-Dec-18
MichealArnette, I totally agree there is a big "technological divide" that creates an un-level playing field. I wouldn't expect to bring my 7mm to a real muzzle loader season, but don't think I'd feel bad if it already included four hundred yard capable, scoped in-lines.

From: Treeline
30-Dec-18
UCS,

Colorado did have archery only sheep units for many years. Some of the best rams were in those units. The numbers were so good that the DOW captured sheep in those units to improve sheep herds around the state. The rifle hunters cried and cried to the Commissioners until they got seasons in those units. The quality has definitely suffered.

I would just like to see Colorado take archery season seriously and get all the rifle hunters out of that time frame. Colorado is ridiculous with rifle hunting right over the top of archery hunting. The advances in archery technology have not helped us at all in that respect.

Hell, can you believe stone points aren’t legal in Colorado? Doesn’t make any sense. They were effective in Colorado for over 10,000 years at keeping meat on the table so why are they not legal now? Pretty sure that the very few hunters that would even consider using stone points would be serious enough to make sure that they were doing it right and probably would have many years experience to know what it would take to actually kill stuff effectively with that limitation.

From: Boreal
30-Dec-18
I like the idea of a trad only area. Then I'd like to hunt on the border of it. There'd be some big bucks in there!

30-Dec-18
As a long bow hunter, I am fine with less opportunity such as point creep, shorter seasons, more quota seasons etc . Who else shares my willingness to sacrifice?

From: tradmt
30-Dec-18
Me.^^^^

From: Jaquomo
30-Dec-18
Me too. And while we're at it, limit transportation to horse-only. I could hunt out of my cabin with no competition. Too bad about the schmucks who have to drive internal combustion engines to their hunting spots!

From: Treeline
30-Dec-18
I’d just like to have an archery only season in Colorado.

We have lost a lot in this state as bowhunters and it seems like the Wildlife Commission and CPW base their decisions to put more rifle hunters in what used to be archery season and further limit archery hunting because of the improvements in archery technology.

There are a number of elk units that are draw for archery and OTC for rifle. Why? Because gun hunters complained that bow hunters were pushing elk into private land. It was only supposed to be for a short study period but has now become entrenched in the permanent season structure. The results of the “study” still are not out there and pretty sure the elk would still move to private land if they were not hunted at all in bow season.

Hell, there are discussions right now about further limits to archery like splitting seasons into shorter time frames, making all archery tags draw only, putting more rifle hunters into September seasons, etc, etc.

Technological advances in archery equipment are not helping us with the regulatory agencies.

From: spike78
30-Dec-18
700 yard inline? Geez and I thought of mine as an under 200 yard gun. We don’t have to worry about any of that in the Northeast as most shots are under 100 yards. And even though my .308 could be considered a 1000 yard gun I’m comfortable out to 200 with it on deer. Just because the tool can be extended doesn’t mean I’m willing.

From: M.Pauls
30-Dec-18
It’s actually amusing how often this topic comes up and all the banter is stuck on the weapons chosen. Bow hunters absolutely dividing themselves over $40 add ons to their bows.

Single biggest thing, the Internet. All of it. Online forums, live satellite mapping, online info, YouTube, get rid of that and you’d see some serious change. Making an individual limit his compound range to 40 yards from 100 isn’t going to change much. I’m not saying it’s reasonable to expect it could ever be done, but I just think it’s hilarious that guys get so bent out of shape about minor differences, or even big differences in weapon technology, when the internet has become one of hunters’ largest aids in killing animals consistently. I’m on it right now

Another note on technology, just thought worth mentioning. I know quite a few hunters in my life. I’m not labelling the entire population, but just saying out of the guys I know, the hardcore bowhunters are by far decked out with the most technology over the rifle hunters. For the most part, they also consistently kill more

From: Matt
30-Dec-18
"I’d just like to have an archery only season in Colorado. We have lost a lot in this state as bowhunters and it seems like the Wildlife Commission and CPW base their decisions to put more rifle hunters in what used to be archery season and further limit archery hunting because of the improvements in archery technology. There are a number of elk units that are draw for archery and OTC for rifle. Why? Because gun hunters complained that bow hunters were pushing elk into private land. It was only supposed to be for a short study period but has now become entrenched in the permanent season structure. The results of the “study” still are not out there and pretty sure the elk would still move to private land if they were not hunted at all in bow season. Hell, there are discussions right now about further limits to archery like splitting seasons into shorter time frames, making all archery tags draw only, putting more rifle hunters into September seasons, etc, etc. Technological advances in archery equipment are not helping us with the regulatory agencies.'

You generally blame technology for the loss of archery opportunity in CO, and yet the one concrete example you cite of a loss of opportunity has nothing to do with technology. That strikes me as odd.

From: Shawn
30-Dec-18
8point times 100!! I choose not to gun hunt much anymore at all for big game. When I do, I carry a single shot handgun in 7-30 Waters. To me it is about challenging yourself, the thing is some folks think it is a challenge to hit something at 700 plus yards(which it is) but if it is a live animal it is not hunting, not too me anyway. Shawn

30-Dec-18
I am a diehard trad bowhunter because I like the challenge. It’s what makes me happy. I will say I like trailcams and have an ebike so I’m not a loincloth guy. My dad and son both hunt with compounds that are fully tricked out. Good for them. That’s what makes them happy. I really dont care too much what others use. The more interesting question to me is there any technology that everyone on this thread would say is “too much”. Airbow? Poisonous pod? Shooting deer from a video screen? Is anything too much? If some lobbyist can get it legal in your state so that it is a legal weapon now you are fine with that? If that does cross your line how did you decide. If we choose to never limit any tech what will “bow” hunting look like in 10 years?

From: bigdog21
30-Dec-18
tech stuff ? maybe the truck I drive to get there and the insulated undies to keep me warm other then that it has been the same type of gear for 40 years , recurve, sidelock 50 cal. R/B, 12 ga. browning pump, and a 10/22. two deer a year and plenty of small game. don't need much more. just learn to hunt and quite taking short cuts. never had a trail cam are a feeder, still use wood ladder stands. but I enjoy my time in the woods. don't like to cut it short. so don't need the aids.

From: Ambush
30-Dec-18
And the post above contains one of the often declared “if you use technology, you aren’t much of a hunter”. It’s a poorly disguised way of saying “I’m better than you”

Same guys say it and same guys don’t.

From: Treeline
30-Dec-18
Matt,

It comes up every time there is any discussion about season structure here in Colorado -

“Archery equipment has advanced far beyond when “primitive” archery seasons were first established. Hell, just watch some of these videos on line of these guys shooting accurately out to 100 yards!”

“Why should bow hunters get such liberal seasons with that kind of equipment?”

Luckily, the CBA has countered that even with the increases in technology, the CPW statistics show that bowhunter success % has not increased. Not sure CPW’s success rate statistics are all that accurate, but so far it has kept our seasons from getting shortened to 1 week in September, probably off the peak of the elk rut.

I will say that the CBA has not helped to get the rifle hunters out of September and that sucks. It always gets twisted to only focusing on muzzle loaders vs bowhunters and if we want separate seasons, bow hunters will have to give up a week. Given the only alternative ever presented with respect to muzzleloaders, most bowhunters are OK sharing our season for a week including the weekends.

Hell, there are early rifle seasons for deer, elk, and bear that are right over the top of archery in Colorado that just get ignored. I have seen several bull elk killed by guys with rifles in archery season that probably had a bear or cow elk rifle tag and their bow strapped to their backpack. Reported it to CPW and was told that there was not enough evidence to press charges on three separate incidents with the same bunch of poachers! There are also sheep, goat, and antelope rifle seasons on top of archery seasons but they have less impact.

From: Matt
30-Dec-18
Ernest Hemingway — 'There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.'

From: Matt
30-Dec-18
"Luckily, the CBA has countered that even with the increases in technology, the CPW statistics show that bowhunter success % has not increased."

So what CPW statistics reflect is the benefit of increased technology is illusory as it does not increase success rates? If they are in fact ignoring their own data when setting seasons/tag allocations, seems like that would be an easy case to make.

From: GF
30-Dec-18
“And soon the trad guys would be fighting about what trad really was.”

You think that’s not already the norm?? LOL! Where have you been hiding???

The thing is, it’s NOT the guys who’ve been at this for 75 years or more who are obnoxious about it. They were using sights and string-crawling and face-walking 50 years ago when Archers shot to 60-80 yards or more in competition and FULLY EXPECTED to hit the bull. It’s the Recent Convert types who rail against any shot past 17.3 yards...

I have to disagree with Lou about Pope & Young, though; they didn’t pull out muzzleloaders or iron-sighted bolt guns. They didn’t even go for the most advanced technology in hand-drawn bows; they were interested in ELB-style bows and Dr. Pope consider making your own tackle to be part or being An Archer.

I’m not saying that anyone should try to emulate their long-bomb shots (outside of fun & practice), but IMHO they would have looked at a compound and figured someone had missed the point of the exercise...

“Range effectiveness has more than doubled for every type of weapon in the last 30 years”

Well THAT’S a load o crap! Roundball MLs haven’t changed at all, and frankly I’d say that the effective range of a typical stickbows SHOOTER is probably closer to HALF of what it was than twice...

“Technology isn't splitting the bowhunting community. What is splitting it is a small group of hunters who can't stand the fact that others use legal tools that make them more accurate, more effective, and more successful.”

You forgot one more “more”...

It’s the More Numerous that I notice and am bothered by the most.

I would mind it less if they were walking away from a firearms tag in order to score the bow-tag.

But I quit hunting firearms in CO because it was a circus. I figured ML was more my speed, so - given that the season was created specifically to provide a high-quality hunting opportunity for those wishing to use a “Settlement Era” weapon, I went roundball.

Dopey me, I was brought up to believe that as the New Guy at the party, the Polite thing to do was to look at what the invited guests were doing and behave accordingly....

30-Dec-18
If someone deems tech a bad thing, don't use it. Many deem the treestand as the biggest tech advancement ever given to hunters, and they have been around awhile. Dead is dead, perceptions are perceptions, etc, etc. If enough people don't use(insert whatever) there's no market and it goes away. I'm a whitetail hunter that uses bow only, compound and traditional equipment. I keep my shots 30yds and in by choice. Some folks will always push the limits, no matter what weapon they have in their hand. Their success/failure ratio and what that actually means to them will shape future actions. The only problem with that is "gravity" of failure doesn't mean much to many these days. Limiting tech won't change that. So, if you don't like it, don't use it and just enjoy how you do it.

From: Franklin
30-Dec-18
I refuse to use modern technology. I use a treestand, compound bow (dabbling in trad now) binos and a release. That`s about it.

From: Kevin Dill
30-Dec-18
I have yet to meet the first selfbow hunter who preferred binoculars from the 1950s.

I also haven't seen a compound guy without a laser rangefinder in about 20 years.

We're all adopting technology in some way.

From: jdbbowhunter
30-Dec-18
Technology is only limited by individuals. Some choose to use little ,some choose to use all the can. But it will never be scaled back due to the all mighty $$$$.

30-Dec-18
Airbows will be legalized soon and then the crossbow guys will say they aren't fair chase. That is the nature of technology.

From: Franklin
30-Dec-18
X2 jdb….

From: spike78
30-Dec-18
Kevin I have been hunting for 25 years and just bought my first range finder.

From: happygolucky
30-Dec-18
Here is what I think would happen if the seasons changed to the weapons noted by the OP:

- The number of hunters would decrease a lot and so would the revenue for the DNRs leading to budget cuts and cuts in state hunting programs.

- The influx of new hunters would continue to decline.

- The number of kills would decrease exponentially and therefore the deer herds for example, would far exceed carrying capacity. That would lead to worsening habitat and more disease.

If we do change the weapons just so the seasons are harder, I think we should outlaw camo, range finders, binos, spotting scopes, cell phones, web sites that show land and terrain, baiting, ozonics, scent control soaps, blinds, tree stands, etc to make it all about scouting and fair chase.

30-Dec-18
I don't think we should change a thing, time will determine the facts.

From: Kevin Dill
30-Dec-18
Spike: I've been chasing game with a bow for 45 years and have never owned a rangefinder. But to be honest, I'm not a 'traditional' bowhunter even though a longbow is my weapon.

From: lawdy
30-Dec-18
Happy go lucky, get rid of toilet paper in the woods too. Corn cobs or pine cones do a whale of a job and are super on hemmoroids. Dipping one’s lower posterior in an ice cold brook is the ultimate. Cleanliness plus birth control.

From: SB
30-Dec-18
I've killed plenty of deer with flintlocks....usually within stick bow range. It got TOO easy ,so I stuck to the stick bows!

From: kadbow
31-Dec-18
Unfortunately more people look for the easiest way than those that look for a challenge.

From: Bowriter
31-Dec-18
No, we don't need them. We also don't need cars to go 140-mph etc. I am not a fan of forcing my methods on other people when the downside is so dangerous. If we limit the sort of things you are talking about, we will decrease the number of hunters drastically. That in turn, reduces the very money that protects wildlife. So, if we return to beyond turn of the 1900-century, then let us just open hunting season year-round, for any method. If we don't, we will not have any form of game management.

In short, with all due respect, it is dumb idea. If you want to limit YOUR technology, feel free. That is your right. It is also the right of others not to limit theirs within legal bounds.

From: happygolucky
31-Dec-18
I agree Bowriter. If people need to make hunting harder, perhaps they should run a mile before hunting to get nice and stinky and then sit in a loincloth on a stump and try to kill their game. Take your hero shot and come here and tell us how you are superior to others because of how hard you make your hunt. There are many ways to make things harder without having to force your style on others.

Not everyone hunts for the same reasons. Hunting means different things to different people.

From: Rocky D
31-Dec-18
The technology is capable as stated but tell me what percentage of the hunting population can actually engage targets at the distances you mentioned with the stated weapon?

Sure some can but the vast majority of hunters cannot. On another thread they are talking MOA for bow groups? Really, I know a bunch of people that cannot shoot moa groups with a rifle. Do not fear technology and don’t expect game departments to placate your emotions if you limit yourself on what technology you find acceptable for your hunting. Remember it is your choice...

From: Bill Obeid
31-Dec-18
“Not everyone hunts for the same reasons. Hunting means different things to different people.”

Truer words have never been spoken.! Bowsite represents a whole array of people.

If there is one thing I’ve learned from Bowsite....

1) Hunting doesn’t mean the same thing for everyone and... 2) even archery doesn’t mean the same thing for everyone!

Things I find black and white . Many people use black and white to make grey. Hunt hard ( if that’s how you like to hunt) and Happy New Year !

From: 12yards
31-Dec-18
Check out the P&Y records regarding the distance registered deer were killed at. Still the same as it was 30 years ago. Out west I have no idea if today's bows have increased the kill distance.

From: Bowriter
31-Dec-18

Bowriter's embedded Photo
Bowriter's embedded Photo
Okay, let's think about this. "Should hunting be harder?" If you think it should, why? We constantly bemoan the fact, we are not recruiting new hunters. So, will we attract more if we make it harder? How do technological advancements affect us? They don't touch me. I hunt the way I want. Even being forced to shoot a crossbow, I still don't shoot over 35-yards. I shoot no further with my muzzleloader than I ever did. Same for my rifle.

I don't have a trail camera or a drone, no food plot, no feeder and except for a pair of pants, no new equipment or clothing. Bottom line---I hunt the way I want to hunt. I don't care how anyone else hunts, as long as it is legal. I don't care what they kill. It does not affect me. If they make laser-guided broadheads that can kill at 350-yards, I don't care. I'll shoot exactly what I am shooting now.

If I think something is bad wrong, I'll jump on it like a buzzard on a gut pile. But dang a bunch of telling Joe what Joe should do and not do. As long as it is legal, that's on Joe.

Just bye the bye-these two were downwind of me for over 45-minutes, at 30-60 yards. I use no scent product. Why didn't they smell me. Cause the scent vapors never hit their noses. It is called, "Natural Ozonics." :)

From: Ucsdryder
31-Dec-18
If we shouldn’t go backward with technology, should we continue to go forward? What about a product a “nose-jammer” type product that works, 100% of the time? Down the road, what if there’s a way to make us “invisible, something that creates a hologram in front of us, what if we have a machine that messes with sound waves that makes us silent to the animals?

From: bowyer45
31-Dec-18
Sure would be a better plan than limiting the time afield, which seems like will be the direction we are going.

From: Catscratch
31-Dec-18
There is always going to be a line in the sand. When I was growing up there was no youth season, you had to have hunter's safety, and you couldn't bow hunt until you were 14 (rifle was 16). Those lines in the sand are long gone and you can start a kid as young as you want and they are even afforded extra seasons. Currently we can't hunt deer after dark, hunt on private property that you don't have permission to be on, or use a rifle during bow season. There are still lines in the sand... just not nearly as many and they are way farther out there.

I think what most are trying to say here is that people who want the challenge of the harder hunt... should be "rewarded" with longer seasons that coincide with the rut. ie- If I'm going to the trouble of practicing to proficiency with something like a longbow I should be rewarded more than someone who picks up a crossbow the week before season. Effort = reward type of thing.

31-Dec-18
Let it all run its course and hopefully someone will be able to start over.

From: Ziek
31-Dec-18
So much conflict. On one thread, we do or we don't want to limit technology, BUT we want to increase our ranks. On another thread, we bemoan the lack of opportunity and overcrowding in the woods. You CAN'T have it both ways.

Bowriter says, what others do doesn't affect him. What a pile of crap. Of course what others do effects other's experiences.

The fact is, quality hunting, as I've known it and define it, is declining. It's inversely proportional to population, both overall overpopulation and number of hunters. That is not going to change. Our organizations that promote hunting have also changed. They purport to be leaders in ethical, responsible bowhunting, with a clear set of values. But in reality, they have given up that leadership role to the manufacturers and whatever they can convince bowhunters to buy. Instead they are concerned mostly with membership numbers, and values that are malleable. From what I've seen, that approach has not worked, nor can it ever work. Successful organizations, have a clear goal and message, and invite like-minded people to join. Trying to entice everyone into your "tent" rarely results in ANY goals being achieved.

From: Matt
31-Dec-18
The greater effort = greater reward rationale has no place in terms of the allocation of public resources. Not to mention a person doesn't have to make a greater effort to shoot a stick bow, just to be good at shooting one. IMO that line of thinking is just another way for some people to raise themselves above others in their own minds.

Imagine the outrage that would ensue if folks asserted that rationale more broadly in regards to the allocation of public resources based on tax bracket, which actually makes more sense (let those who make outsized contributions have outsized access). How do you think that would fly?

From: Buglmin
31-Dec-18
CBA says the success rate hasn't increased...ummm Funny, cause now guys are killing elk at 80 yards even they never could call elk in before. And most non residents don't belong to the CBA or submit success information. So how does the CBA know the success rates haven't gone up? Makes no sense..

Gun hunter numbers have gone up quite a bit, and some Archety hunters are applying for for elk rifle tags cause they get fed up with non residents pouring into the country. So, they apply and hunt rifle to get away from the crowds. The gun seasons start the third week of October, and guys complain about that and want archery season to now extend into October so they can hunt elk during the rut. It's funny, cause they fail to realize that once the thousands of bowhunters re out of the woods, the elk can rut uninterrupted now. Pressured elk become silent elk, but the bowhunters think the rut just isn't going on because they can't call in any elk. Technology has changed the success rates for a lot of animals in lots of states. Guys are killing elk now at 80 yards with compounds, 40 yards with stick bows, 700 yards with rifles. Heck, I can remember guys killing elk at over 150 yards with the old Hawkins black powders, 200 yards with open sights and old 30/30's.

Traditional only seasons? Umm.. If I recall, the guys from Durango wrote a long letter to CPW several seasons ago, saying as to how they deserved their own season because they used equipment that limits their abilities and deserve to hunt un pressured elk. Seems they thought they deserved a chance to hunt elk at the peak of the rut, without pressure from other hunters. Ummm, wonder how many guys would suddenly start shooting the old struggle stick if that happened? Thank God the CPW dismissed their wild ideas...

From: Jethro
31-Dec-18
What is great about the way it is now is that you can choose whatever level of technology floats your boat. If you want to use a flintlock, or stick bow, or open sighted rifle, then go ahead. Nothing is stopping anyone. Its all the decision of the individual within the law.

From: Catscratch
31-Dec-18
"The greater effort = greater reward rationale has no place in terms of the allocation of public resources. Not to mention a person doesn't have to make a greater effort to shoot a stick bow, just to be good at shooting one. IMO that line of thinking is just another way for some people to raise themselves above others in their own minds."

Matt - I couldn't agree more, but to say it isn't happening or prevalent is wrong. Just look at the countless posts on this site saying that crossbow hunters are lazy, or have no place in archery season BECAUSE they are too accurate with very little practice. It's very easy to find this "harder work = more deserved reward" attitude here. It's expressed a lot!

From: Ambush
31-Dec-18
Shouldn’t the greater reward be in the accomplishment it’s self.

I think some are seeking more an Award than reward.

From: Matt
31-Dec-18
Cat scratch, I agree the attitude is prevalent, I just don't agree with it.

I was talking to an old boss the other day about population growth and he cited a study where people readily identified that there were too many of everybody else, but just enough of them. It's that sort of thinking that is at the heart of the problem.

31-Dec-18
Why not just have one season, shoot whatever weapon you choose? Seasons will be adjusted to meet game managers harvest objectives.

From: TD
31-Dec-18
DAMMIT! GIT OFF MY LAWN!

some folks will use nearly any excuse to not have to deal with a dead animal........ =D

From: Matt
31-Dec-18
SImple, because it would generally drive folks to the most effective weapon (rifle) and opportunity would be dramatically reduced.

From: lv2bohunt
31-Dec-18
Ambush x 2

31-Dec-18
Many here seem to embrace tech advances even though they have reduced opportunity on many species over the last several decades. So, if nobody cares " as long as it is legal" than may as well have one simple season and use whatever is legal.

From: Silverback
31-Dec-18
In New York we have about a 6 week bow season. How about the first 4 weeks we use recurves and longbows and the last 2 weeks we can use high tech equipment such as compounds and crossbows. That would limit technology with out eliminating it all together.

From: Matt
31-Dec-18
Are there documented examples of technology reducing opportunity? It was bandied about above but never valued. In fact, it seems like the assertion was contradicted by increased technology not increasing success rates.

From: JusPassin
31-Dec-18
Every living species survives by expending the least amount of work to achieve its needs. Humans have the unfortunate ability to harness technology. Laws are on the books because we are unwilling as a species to control ourselves.

I would have no issue with putting limits on technology when pursuing game. It is after all what the basis for the fair chase concept was all about.

31-Dec-18
W2. Ew cb 3

From: WapitiBob
31-Dec-18
“Are there documented examples of technology reducing opportunity?”

Not up here.

From: Bill Obeid
31-Dec-18
Everybody’s different !

Two factors affect the enjoyment of my hunting experience.

1) the physical effort I put into a hunt is directly proportional to the pleasure I derive from the hunt.

2) For me , as technology increases the enjoyment of my hunting experience decreases.

That’s not to say I don’t use some modern advancements. I do. But as I age I am often shedding technology to derive more satisfaction from my hunts.

Hunters much younger may be embracing new technology.... hunters older than myself may need the latest technology to continue to be a successful hunter. Everyone is at a different place in their hunting journey. There is no right amount of technology for everyone to use . Use what you want or don’t ..... just be safe and enjoy your time afield. Life is short.

From: APauls
31-Dec-18
The killers that can kill elk at 80 usually get em to where they need them for the vast majority. The Elmer Fudds can’t get to 80 so it doesn’t really matter. Killers gonna kill, wannabes gonna wannabe lol

I just hope we never lose our 3 month archery season for whitetails

From: Bowriter
31-Dec-18

Bowriter's embedded Photo
Bowriter's embedded Photo
Ziek- Show me how it, in any way, affects me. I defy you, show me, how technological advances and law changes in the last 64-years, have changed the way I feel about or the way, I hunt. Now, before you do,let me state this: I did go from a recurve to a compound to a crossbow. (Equipment changes). I did not shoot any farther or better. I shoot the same rifle, I have shot for 43-years. I shoot the same muzzleloader, I have shot for 17-years. Except for a reduction in total acres, (voluntary,) I hunt the same way I did 50-years ago. The only big change is the longer hunting season and more liberal bag limit. Now how did technological advancements affect me?

If to you, hunting is all about killing, then to me, regardless if what equipment or method you use, you are not a hunter. If your hunt is a complete bust because you did not kill anything, you are hunting accolades, not an animal. I feel safe in saying, not one poster on this site is subsistence hunting. Some years ago, I would have said, most are hunting for the enjoyment of hunting. Now I would say, a large percentage are concerned with antler size and how to make it easy. If that is not true, then why all the posts about scent control and best food to plant. Converse are the ones who want to vilify anyone shooting anything but a trad. "If you didn't sneak up on him handmade moccasins and shoot him at 12-yards with a stick you made yourself, you cheated." Holy Christ! Can you not realize just how badly we, yes include myself, are shooting ourselves in the freakin foot!

Bill Obeid just posted, "Hunters much younger may be embracing new technology.... hunters older than myself may need the latest technology to continue to be a successful hunter. Everyone is at a different place in their hunting journey. There is no right amount of technology for everyone to use . Use what you want or don’t ..... just be safe and enjoy your time afield. Life is short." I have no idea who he is. But is pretty damn smart. Better listen.

Yeah, he is just a five-point. Damn straight, I shot him. Eight yards...with a compound.

From: TD
02-Jan-19
You rare;y have fish and game themselves contemplating this much, as to them hunting is a management tool and source of income. You DO have jealous rifle whiners crying TO fish and game dept about all the "high tech" archery hunters killing THEIR animals....... then at the other end you have some trad whiners claiming they'd have killed more stuff if they didn't have "high tech" taking away THEIR opportunity or they have too much competition or some such (although you rarely hear it from those trad hunters here that are regularly successful) They think they should have it to themselves. Exclusively. Because, you know, it's harder and stuff...... You will notice a common thread to whiners...... it's not humble selflessness.....

In reality all of archery season, high tech included, is pretty much an afterthought to fish and game. Our harvest numbers could double and still be but a drop in the bucket to rifle harvest. In some cases we may even lose opportunity because our numbers are so low and we are NOT successful enough to be counted on as a management tool. Far from frowning on "high tech",more and more states are embracing crossbows because they want more numbers and better success rates, not because they have stock in crossbow sales. Quite the opposite of the "high tech" arguments and doom and gloom brought forth here. Our main value in many cases is in areas sensitive to rifle hunting.

In reality our numbers is what may keep us in the game. Fewer bowhunters (and make no mistake, that is exactly the result of what is being discussed here) is not a good thing when you have to argue your case before the board. You can see it in states like Utah where rifle has been encroaching, allowed early, during the rut, etc. Hint: that stuff isn't happening because of any "tech"..... quite the opposite. It's happening because of influence of numbers and money. Not enough of either WRT bowhunters.

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