Sitka Mountain Gear
Colorado PP Fee....Opt-Out
Wild Sheep
Contributors to this thread:
sticksender 16-Jan-19
Ucsdryder 16-Jan-19
wifishkiller 16-Jan-19
Trial153 16-Jan-19
Paul@thefort 16-Jan-19
Billyvanness 16-Jan-19
Trial153 16-Jan-19
Ucsdryder 16-Jan-19
IdyllwildArcher 16-Jan-19
Zbone 16-Jan-19
cnelk 16-Jan-19
Ambush 16-Jan-19
IdyllwildArcher 16-Jan-19
Ambush 16-Jan-19
spike78 16-Jan-19
Dirk Diggler 16-Jan-19
RogBow 16-Jan-19
PoudreCanyon 16-Jan-19
Yellowjacket 16-Jan-19
swampokie 16-Jan-19
Glunt@work 16-Jan-19
BOWUNTR 16-Jan-19
IdyllwildArcher 16-Jan-19
Dirk Diggler 16-Jan-19
Jaquomo 16-Jan-19
Ambush 16-Jan-19
Dirk Diggler 16-Jan-19
Dirk Diggler 16-Jan-19
IdyllwildArcher 16-Jan-19
IdyllwildArcher 16-Jan-19
Ambush 17-Jan-19
Treeline 17-Jan-19
IdyllwildArcher 17-Jan-19
Zim 17-Jan-19
wkochevar 17-Jan-19
Dirk Diggler 17-Jan-19
Trial153 17-Jan-19
Cazador 17-Jan-19
SteveB 17-Jan-19
Rock 17-Jan-19
Z Barebow 17-Jan-19
Ucsdryder 17-Jan-19
sticksender 17-Jan-19
tkjwonta 17-Jan-19
wkochevar 17-Jan-19
Rock 17-Jan-19
cnelk 17-Jan-19
Dirk Diggler 17-Jan-19
Orion 17-Jan-19
Dirk Diggler 17-Jan-19
wkochevar 17-Jan-19
tkjwonta 17-Jan-19
Grasshopper 17-Jan-19
Orion 17-Jan-19
Trial153 17-Jan-19
tkjwonta 17-Jan-19
Trial153 17-Jan-19
Dirk Diggler 17-Jan-19
Zim 18-Jan-19
mick 19-Jan-19
Glunt@work 19-Jan-19
From: sticksender
16-Jan-19
This has now been posted in CDPW's FAQ section, regarding the new fee system for 2019:

Question: "Will applicants unsuccessful on their first choice for Rocky Mountain bighorn sheep, mountain goat, and moose be required to purchase a preference point in 2019, or will the purchase of a preference point be optional?"

Answer: "At its January 2019 meeting, the Commission added an opt-out option for the preference point fee for moose, Rocky Mountain bighorn sheep, and mountain goat applicants. This means that unsuccessful first choice applicants can choose whether they want to pay to receive one preference point/weighted preference point per application."

So....you can save the $50 res or $100 non-res point fee, per species, if you want to apply and not gain a point. Who's in for this deal?

From: Ucsdryder
16-Jan-19
I’m confused why they would do that? Why give up 50/100 dollars x 1000s of people?

From: wifishkiller
16-Jan-19
No points no tag, doesn’t bother me

From: Trial153
16-Jan-19
So you need to have 3 weighted points to be in the draw. After that your able to buy a licence be in the draw and opt out of buying weighted points which are basicly worthless. Seem like a win win. Pay for a license, pay for a draw and opt out of the BS point scheme. CO gets license fees which are federal matched...win for them. Did someone at the CO fish and game dept wake up and grow a Conscience?

From: Paul@thefort
16-Jan-19
I have the max PP and weight PP (21) for moose so I will op out as a few more weight points will make no difference in my ability to draw a moose license. Three years ago there were about 24,000 apps for moose and now with the pay later system, the number is over 50,000 apps. In two years when the recent apps were applied for and then will have 3 PP to get into the system, There will be no way in hell, I will ever draw a moose license in Colorado. Too bad! Luckily I have already killed my Mt Sheep and Goat.

16-Jan-19
They need to create a better system... Guys like Paul with 21 pts deserve to draw. Instead guys with 3/0 will draw. Makes zero sense

From: Trial153
16-Jan-19
A better system would be tottaly random like it should have been from the start.

From: Ucsdryder
16-Jan-19
Here’s the problem I see. One of the benefits of the 50/100 was keeping the huge increase in applicants that we saw last year from returning and overloading an already stressed resource. Now, someone can get to 3 and 0 or 3 and 1 and opt out. So for 150 bucks over 3 years you’re back to free draws for a resident which is what caused the huge spike last year.

16-Jan-19
There's no "better system" that will allow guys to draw. In any system where there are more people wanting the tags than there are tags, no matter what system you put in place, someone has to go without drawing their entire life.

From: Zbone
16-Jan-19
Thanks for sharing the info...

From: cnelk
16-Jan-19

cnelk's embedded Photo
cnelk's embedded Photo
The Colorado moose draw DID start as a random draw.

I drew my Colorado moose tag 10 years ago. I had been applying for Colorado moose for 18 years [even before Pref Points started]

I would suggest anyone interested in getting a moose tag to take advantage of ANY opportunity to draw. Even if that means getting another Weighted Point, or even applying for a unit that isnt familiar to you.

Good luck this year

From: Ambush
16-Jan-19
cnelk, if you're only going to do it once, you might as well do it up big! Actually, huge!!

I was just reading a piece on Eastmans about PP's systems and how they are all prone to fail in the long run. It also seemed to say that WY residents are on random and not PP's like NR.

In BC we are random draw for all species that have a draw component. With the exception of Roosevelt and bison there is OTC available too. If you draw a moose tag, then the next tree years you have a fifty percent disadvantage, as in your number has to be drawn twice to win.

I have really bad luck in the draws and it used really tick me off that I would fail to draw, year after year, often with almost even odds. Now I'm down to about a five minute pout. But even with my crappy luck, I wouldn't ever want to go down the road of PP's. Right now I have the same chance every year and the dream only costs me seven bucks per species. There's about a half a dozen draws that I would really (really!, really!!) like to get, but I may never draw. But at least I know I have a chance every year, rather than knowing I'll draw when I'm 127 years old. I'm building points again for WY antelope, but should only need four. That's it for me.

But really, what can a state do without absolutely screwing the guys with the most invested, to make it sustainable and give everyone some hope and a reason to apply?

16-Jan-19
Grow more animals.

From: Ambush
16-Jan-19
How about anybody that has points up to this date can sell them? And before screaming "only the rich can hunt!!!", keep in mind how much some folks already have in it and they will likely never hunt.

From: spike78
16-Jan-19
By the time you draw you could have paid for Newfoundland. PP’s are BS as I’ve heard about people in Maine drawing in just 5 years and others drawing in 15-18 years.

From: Dirk Diggler
16-Jan-19
I've got 15 weighted points for sheep, moose and goat. With the old system of fronting the license fee I held out hope, now I have very little. I'll probably continue to pay for pp in hopes it tips karma in my favor, it sure ain't gonna tip the odds in my favor. Thanx for the post sticksender.

From: RogBow
16-Jan-19
I like the hybrid system in Colorado. Could work the same for the "big 3". Give some preference to those who have waited say at least 10 WP, then the rest are random. Increase the app fee and offer the point fee as now to filter out the not so dedicated.

We can't have this free for all $3 dollar app fee mumbo jumbo they tried last year.

From: PoudreCanyon
16-Jan-19
At 3/12 for moose and am seriously considering dumping them into a cow tag the following year if I don’t draw in 2019. As stated, the odds are about to become insurmountable.

From: Yellowjacket
16-Jan-19
3 and 21 for moose (actually have applied 30 years) and I plan to dump them on a cow tag this year.

From: swampokie
16-Jan-19
The odds wont be too bad because a lot that got in for bighorn for 3$ last year will pass on the 100$ point to get to 3 to enter the drawing pool. I know im out so that may help ur odds. Too many other states with non refundable upfront licenses and stamps to pay for to be able to afford a 100$ point for Colorado BIG 3. I don't think ur odds will be that much worse in 2020

From: Glunt@work
16-Jan-19
I will be opting out. I have some weighted points for the 3 species. Comparing the benefit of more weighted points against $150 a year to get them, it's just not enough value. More weighted points gain a very tiny advantage and still no guarantee of ever drawing.

From: BOWUNTR
16-Jan-19
Cannot wait to see what changes they make next year... and the next... Ed F

16-Jan-19
Selling and passing on points when you die is the most horrible idea of any that have been fronted in all these Ponzi Scheme ideas and it's been put forward so many times. Nothing says the "king's deer" like kids benefiting off of, not just the sweat and tears of their parents, but the sweat and tears of everyone else.

This is America. Stand on your own two feet for Christ's sake.

Children should not get a one-up over someone who's been putting in for 30 years but happens to be 10 years younger than their dad.

From: Dirk Diggler
16-Jan-19
"Cannot wait to see what changes they make next year... and the next... Ed F"

It's a safe bet it won't be cheaper or easier!

From: Jaquomo
16-Jan-19
Ike, how about if I bequeath my max moose and sheep points to you? You're young enough to put them to good use someday if you draw. Doing a codicil to my will this week, might as well put one in for you, too. :-)

From: Ambush
16-Jan-19
Whoa, whoa slow down Idyll! I can't tell if you like the idea or not!

First off, not many ten years old's have kids in Colorado. Alabama and surrounding I'll allow that.

Second, this is America alright and they're my damn points bought and paid for, so mine to do what I want with. Land of the Free!

And I sure ain't the King, so passing them to my little prince still wouldn't make them the King's deer when I die and he takes over.

As far as a Ponzi schemes goes, well that is what you got right now, 'cause nobody but the very peak of the pyramid is getting anything. Ever!!

I got to put my $7 application in tonight for Dahl sheep random draw.. One in six chance to win. But with my luck I probably won't again. But I have a chance!

From: Dirk Diggler
16-Jan-19
"As far as a Ponzi schemes goes, well that is what you got right now, 'cause nobody but the very peak of the pyramid is getting anything. Ever!!"

Actually the guys at the top of the pyramid haven't had as good a luck as the guys in the lower half of the pyramid latey. Idyll I'll sell ya half of my points so I can be right in the meaty part of the pyramid?

From: Dirk Diggler
16-Jan-19

16-Jan-19
I take it all back Lou. I love me some nepotism when it's in my favor...

16-Jan-19
Ambush, that was a poorly worded sentence. I meant that the hypothetical person handing down the points was 10 years older than the person who could not draw the tag that the child was getting because of their parent.

Means someone who's 70-80 hands on points to someone who's 40-50 and the guy who's 60-70 doesn't draw in his entire life while someone who's 40-50 does because of daddy. That's not right. That's ridiculous.

The fact is, if you have 50 guys putting in for 1 tag and you use a preference point system, that means that 51 years later (when you can expect people to be dying), 1 guy doesn't get a tag, period. I don't care how you slice the pie, someone doesn't get a tag.

We have lots of tags where 500-1000+ guys are putting in for 1 tag. You can't fix the fact that some guys are never going to get a tag. And giving the first guys to get in on the system preference just gives them an unfair advantage for their entire lives because they happened to be born in a year that allowed them to get in on the first year that the Ponzi Scheme was created and sacrifices the odds of everyone else who comes afterwards. It's bullshit.

Most of these preference point systems are nothing more than Ponzi Schemes. If a given tag goes past 10+ points, it should revert to a BP system or a pure lottery. These preference point systems are great for tags that take less than 10 points to draw. Over that, the system is completely broken.

From: Ambush
17-Jan-19
Agreed.

Perhaps by waiving the points fee (if you don’t want a point) will encourage people to not buy points and simply enter the draw. Eventually you’ll have fewer points holders and a smaller pool of point tags. More tags in the random pool.

But some people are going to get screwed royaly eventually.

From: Treeline
17-Jan-19
Feeling kind of screwed for moose, sheep, and goat myself.

At max points for moose and had applied for a number of years before we ever had points. Have drawn sheep tags but haven’t killed one in Colorado. I’m at 3+12 for sheep. Drew a goat tag and got one, then waited out and started again. At 3+13 for goat.

Crazy thing is that there are a few guys that have killed multiple sheep, goats and moose in the same time frame in CO...

17-Jan-19
Tavis, move to Alaska. You can hunt sheep, goat, and moose every year :)

From: Zim
17-Jan-19
Just really glad I didn't buy into CO moose & goat game back in the day. I am in for sheep 3+14. Will have to research more on weighted point value to see if I'll ad the point this year. It seems all these states are realizing their schemes are doomed to collapse, and just want to profit from their business of selling the opportunity to NOT hunt. Manufacturing costs of dreams costs them nothing. Got to tap into all the captive hunters who will never draw a tag.

From: wkochevar
17-Jan-19
Zim, If you had any interest in hunting those species, It was the only game you could play. As a max ptr on 2 of the 3 animals, at the time, I certainly had no idea what a mess this would turn into, no one did, DOW (CPW) included.

From: Dirk Diggler
17-Jan-19
Hell Ray Charles saw it comin if I did!

From: Trial153
17-Jan-19
I will stay in the sheep and moose draw but opt out of the points as statistically weighted points are pretty much worthless.

From: Cazador
17-Jan-19
The DOW has made a lot of changes as of late. My fear is this is another random change and the next year something else will come to the table. As a resident I’ll stay in the pool as I can see other changes coming down and I don’t want to be behind a point or two if and when it does.

They system was fine before. Now it’s a mess.

From: SteveB
17-Jan-19
It all sucks. Why not just charge a fee to get in the drawing so revenue stays up, and make every single draw random?

From: Rock
17-Jan-19

Rock's embedded Photo
32 years of applying when I drew my Colorado Moose tag with 3 + 14 (max points at that time).
Rock's embedded Photo
32 years of applying when I drew my Colorado Moose tag with 3 + 14 (max points at that time).
My luck has been better than some but not great other than Bighorn tags.

Colorado Moose = 32 years of applying (3 + 14 max points at that time)

Colorado Bighorn Sheep = Drew the first year I applied (prior to PP) then drew again 4 years later and again 4 years after that then my last tag was 5 years after that and I finally killed a good one on my 88th day of hunting them over a 13 year period

Colorado Mt. Goat = 19 years to draw my first one and 18 year to draw my second one (killed one each time)

From: Z Barebow
17-Jan-19
When you started bow hunting, who could have imagined you would be waiting for someone to die so you get a particular tag! It is so ludicrous you cannot make this up.

From: Ucsdryder
17-Jan-19
Rock you make a great point. Why aren’t the OIL tags?

From: sticksender
17-Jan-19
The Application Services hold a big influence on applicant pool size (NR mainly). Many of us here are pretty savvy about the draws and can make our own decisions. But a good percentage of the masses will follow the recommendations put forward by Huntin Fool, Epic Outdoors and others. We'll know soon, once the Colorado editions of their mags come out. But very likely those services will continue listing CO as a "must-apply-for" state, and continue telling NR's to keep applying and buying points.

From: tkjwonta
17-Jan-19
Stick, I think you're on to something. Maybe we need to start an application mag that is all doom and gloom and give people an actual idea of the statistical likelihood that they ever draw a tag. I'm sure the state game agencies would be very pleased.

From: wkochevar
17-Jan-19
With all due respect Dirk Diggler, 23-24 years ago when this started, no one saw this coming...

From: Rock
17-Jan-19
Ucsdryder, When I started applying for Bighorn Sheep it was OIL, so I decided if I could only shoot one then it was going to be a full curl or at least a very heavy 3/4 curl. Since I killed mine in 95' I have never applied again even though I could.

Moose, Bull is OIL for drawn tags.

From: cnelk
17-Jan-19
Id be curious who on this this thread has every played 'Powerball' when the jackpot is multi millions.

By doing doing so, you are participating in an event and has very low odds, low risk, but high rewards.

Not much difference than applying for the Colorado Big 3 ... eh?

From: Dirk Diggler
17-Jan-19
"With all due respect Dirk Diggler, 23-24 years ago when this started, no one saw this coming..."

Agree WK. I thought you were referring to the app increases after no longer fronting the tag fee. My apologies.

From: Orion
17-Jan-19
Pretty funny how many guys are now saying the weighted points are worthless. I remember getting lambasted for my thread calling them worthless last year.

From: Dirk Diggler
17-Jan-19
It all hinges on that computer generated random number, luck of the draw. It's as close to bein a random draw as you can get without bein a clean random draw. My buddy drew his bull moose tag a couple years back with 3+1.

From: wkochevar
17-Jan-19
I know 3 persons who have drawn one of the Big 3 at 3+1... Just my luck!! I'd rather not know them, ya know? Although your happy for them, you're really not (sitting at 3+20-something) ;-)

From: tkjwonta
17-Jan-19
Statistically, the points improve your chance of winning, but they don't guarantee anything, especially when the system encourages the influx of a huge new group of applicants.

From: Grasshopper
17-Jan-19
Love the change, if you could not opt-out everyone would jump over to desert. I apply for desert.

From: Orion
17-Jan-19
Not really everyone is equal after three points it all comes down to your random number

From: Trial153
17-Jan-19
the weighted points don't do jack.

From: tkjwonta
17-Jan-19
That is factually incorrect, everyone is not equal after three points. The extra weighted points might not gain you a huge advantage, especially as you gain more and more, but they mathematically improve the odds for an individual applicant.

From: Trial153
17-Jan-19
Statistically irrelevant

From: Dirk Diggler
17-Jan-19
The numbers they use aren't single digits.

From: Zim
18-Jan-19
"Zim, If you had any interest in hunting those species, It was the only game you could play. As a max ptr on 2 of the 3 animals, at the time, I certainly had no idea what a mess this would turn into, no one did, DOW (CPW) included."

No, I apply in many states. I had other options. Since my decision years ago, I ended up drawing moose in both Wyoming & New Hampshire. Scored bulls each time. No goat yet but not as interested in that anyway. Still apply in a few states. I expect to quit accumulating these newer more expensive CO sheep points and just use what I have. I'm getting older and losing some interest anyway.

From: mick
19-Jan-19
To my knowledge the way the draw is after your 3 rd year you are given a computer generated number I think it is like 9 digits. then the number is reversed (so last digit is first and so on). The person with the lowest number draws. So if you have say 8 weighted pts. You get 8 sets of the 9 digit numbers and the lowest one will be the one entered into the draw. So you would have 8 chances to have a lower number, where the guy with no weighted pts would have 1 chance to have the lowest number. It does help you. But there could be way-way more people with no weighted pts then say the group with max. weighted pts so the lowest number could come from someone with no points.

From: Glunt@work
19-Jan-19

Glunt@work's Link
Here is a detailed explanation of how the weighted points work. If someone wants a simple explanation, they are out of luck.

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