Fixed Blade or Mechanical Broadhead
Elk
I've been watching the Land of the Free series and noticed that most of them shoot fixed blades, some shooting a single bevel (kudu or bone). I've typically shot mechanical (spitfire) for whitetail but might consider a switch if I go after elk. Would love to hear any and all thoughts.
Fixed blade. Take a look at VPA.
This day and age of incredible broadhead develop in both mechanical and fixed heads allows customizing your Quiver to your particular bow set up and then for the specie you are currently hunting. Very exciting times. Each of us can develop our own strategy. I use both.
PS: I base my choices on fellow Bowsiters results then I shoot 5 to 10 animals with a particular head and make my determination. Shooting broadheads into gel, cinder blocks and plywood means nothing to me. Field testing on game is the way to go. Good luck, C
I encourage you to do so, and fully support any decision you make. Please post what fixed heads you try, and your results. Wasp just released a pretty sweet looking fixed head they collaborated with the folks at Havalon….I'll attach a link. If they suck, I'll gladly take them off your hands, and will pay the shipping costs. Please try them in 100 grain. :)
Just remember that guy from the land of the free show had his singe bevel head on a 540 grain arrow stopped instantly on an elk this year.
Tom, the state of Alaska allows mechanicals on all species.
The Wasp Havalon looks like a new and improved Muzzy.
Please, before you go to a mechanical, do your homework and know what your setup is producing in energy. I have been shooting mechanicals for almost 20 years and killed elk, buffalo, deer, bear and, other animals with them. Never an issue. With that said, I knew what my capabilities and limitations were with the equipment. I personally have seen a number of fixed blade fail including Wasp, Snuffer, Helix and, Muzzy. Remember, there are bad and good heads, both mechanical and fixed. Don't go cheap, you will regret it.
Fixed blade (Vipertricks) for me. I’ve yet to hear anyone complain “the blades didn’t open”, or “the blades opened in flight”.
Slick Trick or VPA get my vote. If you're rollin in dough, the Iron Wills look like a mighty fine head.
X2 Charlie!
I have killed elk with both. Fixed are my go to for elk sized game and bigger but I always have at least one mech in the quiver. Different tools for different jobs
I still shoot Thunderhead 125's. Might not be the latest and greatest, but they have always been a solid head for me. I am however thinking of going to something with a little less profile (fixed blade) for longer shots out West.
I’m same as Will...Slick Trick mags for elk and dabble with mechanical for smaller critters. Sevr was devastating on a lope last August. Definitely fun to have huge holes.
I'm a both guy, fixed & cut on contact! My top heads these days are Exodus Qad's, Viper Tricks, Slick Trick Standards. No. 1 at this stage is Iron Will Heads! I simply love the way they handle things!
With that said between my Son & I we've taken elk with probably 17-20 different heads (no mechanicals) Not a head failure to date, put it where they live & the outcome is generally positive!
ElkNut/Paul
"Just remember that guy from the land of the free show had his singe bevel head on a 540 grain arrow stopped instantly on an elk this year."
OK, so maybe that "proves" that there are no guarantees in Life. Glad we got that straight, because I was starting to think that might be the case....
;)
Coupla questions:
1) Do you have a link to the shot in question? (it would be good to have access to the same information that you are looking at)
2) What did that guy hit???
3) What evidence cn you provide that any other head might have performed better under those specific circumstances??
Personally, I have to agree with tdvorak that zero is hard number to argue with; even if fixed-blade heads were equally prone to structural failure as any given mechanical, they still have a guaranteed 0% risk of failure to open or to open prematurely. They may fail structurally, but they simply CANNOT fail to operate as intended, and the funny thing about that is that it means that mechanicals are quite literally INFINITELY MORE LIKELY to fail.
Another thing...
1) No question that mechanicals (BY DESIGN) must overcome more resistance in order to penetrate through the animal.
2) Many people prefer mechanicals because they can't get fixed blades to hit right on top of their field points, which is a result of imperfect arrow tuning and inadequate compensation by those teeny-weeny fletchings that so many speedbow shooters prefer.
Net result is that their arrows are not flying perfectly point-on all the way down the range... result of which is that the arrow may often be hitting at an angle, rather than dead-on... result of which is poor penetration.
Which is why we "low energy" shooters do better when we bare-shaft tune to the point that we don't need any fletchings at all to shoot field points out to 20 or 30 or (if you're really good) maybe 40-50 yards or more...
So JMO there's a case to be made that mechs only camouflage poor flight in the air, and then they amplify the snot out of it, resulting in poor penetration and arrows slapping the side of the animal, resulting in them running harder, faster and longer than they would have if the arrow had been able to whistle clean through....
X2 Muche. Nothing like writing a book to tell us how mechanicals suck and then proving you don't even know the laws of the state.
I use fixed heads for all species. Used to use Muzzy 3 blades. Now use VPAs - they penetrate better.
I think its all about your whole setup...the process you use and of course your shot selections.
I'm a fixed coc guy- VPA's and magnus stingers....I chose those for the added penetration, they give me more flexibility on shot selections and the process to insure perfect arrow flight. Once tested, I never have to think about my BH...especially when pulling them out of my quiver on a shot.
Do mech heads work...of course. It just a different set of shot selections, setup criteria and processes.
I can shoot every hunting arrow with my chosen setup making sure they all shoot perfect. Then I touch them up and in the quiver. If there is a spine issue...or any of a number of other things that pop up...it shows during my test process....not on a shot at game.
Some guys don't realize the many factors...and just screw on their heads and hunt......ignorance is bliss.
For elk/moose, I use fixed but use MBH's for lighter game.
I have killed right around 100 animals with archery gear (~70 w MBH's and ~30 with FBBH's) and have seen another 30-40 killed by other hunters. I've never had or seen a failure with mechanical broadheads. The closest I have come to an actual failure was with 2 with fixed blades (majorly bent ferrules, but still killed the elk).
So, our of ~135 animals: Mechanical failures - 0 Fixed blades failures - 2
Go figure.
Slick Tricks and Muzzy's have always worked great for me, muleys, elk, bear and antelope in NM. Fly true for me. Started out with Thunderheads about 20-25 years ago with aluminum arrows and was happy with that also. Times change, so now carbons and above mentioned broadheads.
"Fixed Blade or Mechanical Broadhead?"
Yes.
It’s harder to buy a bad broadhead today than a good one no matter which type you choose
I used to be just a 'fixed guy' but over the last 10 years I've been hunting with mechanicals more and more. For the last 5-6 years, I normally carry about half fixed and half mechs in my quiver... Love the mechs for the large cutting diameter and amount of damage they inflect, which is why most of the people that I know shoot them do. I've never lost an animal with mechs and have shot several elk, mule deer, whitetails, antelope, turkeys - sure it will happen if I keep using them just haven't yet... Have lost animals with fixed - not saying it was the BH's fault - just pointing out that I have had a higher recovery rate with mechanicals....
You want a big wound channel? Try these babies.
I have shot 2 with mechanical heads.....utterly devastating, although not much of a sample group.
I have killed 51 with fixed heads, they work very well also.....it all boils down to shot placement, get them in close and make a good shot and they rarely go over a 100 yards.
Some one above said match the head to your set up! I will agree with that!
Don't know why anybody would shoot mechanicals...
If you want two holes on an elk a smaller cut fixed BH tends to accomplish that more often. A mech head with wider cut will penetrate less, though may still make two holes. Just depends where you hit, and angle. Nothing is going through a direct hit on a major bone.
Oh, some things will go through major bone :)
Shuttle T meets elk knuckle/femur
I typically prefer a mechanical. They have always worked well for me.
100 grain G5 Striker for me. Eight dead elk, all dropped within 75 yards, complete pass through on everyone, and they fly perfect.
Well, YEAH, if you’re gonna shoot nothing but dinks!
Nice bull, man!
NOTHING works well enough to cover for us if WE screw up. And JMO bulls like that don’t often fall to a Screw-up.....
And by the way....
“Nothing is going through a direct hit on a major bone.”
We have guys on Leatherwall who have shot through AMAZING amounts of hard bone with Trad Gear. And one guy who killed a beef bull with a rubber blunt. It took a couple days and his dad was PISSED, but there it is....
Oh C’mon Will, tell us the real story! What caliber were you shooting? Ha
Right?! I'm not sure I'd believe it I'd I hadn't seen it
I took a good buck right through the shoulder joint with a .54 RB at ten steps; crushed the joint and snapped the humerus at the opposite end as well... and it wasn’t anywhere near that big a muss!
GF - "one guy who killed a beef bull with a rubber blunt. It took a couple days and his dad was PISSED"
What was the name of that thread would like to read it... Thanks...
They both work. But Murphy’s Law is in full effect bow hunting. Why depend on a broad head to open and do its job? Fixed is only way to fly I believe. I’ve killed bears, hogs, whitetail, elk and muley all with a 100 gr Thunderhead. I’ve never had one separate or thought I lost an animal because of broadhead performance. If I lost an animal it was shot placement not the razors. There’s almost as many broad heads on the market as fishing lures anymore. And just like fishing lures...most are made to catch fisherman not fish if you know what I mean. That’s my 2 cents for what it’s worth.
Z - It wasn’t something that had its own thread, because the shooter didn’t want to make too much of what was really (mostly) bad judgement on his part. The just of it was that the bull kept breaking into an area where he shouldn’t have been, and after the 3rd or 4th time, our friend let him have it right behind the shoulder with a rubber blunt... which was not expected to be lethal, of course. But a #90-#95 Howatt Hunter recurve is a pretty serious piece of artillery and it didn’t end well...
Those were some pretty expensive steaks, I’d imagine....
Machines will eventually. Its a given.
That’s crazy Will, what did the BH look like after all that?
Thanks GF for the info...
brownlow24, whats your draw weight, draw length and finished arrow weight? The Spitfire is a tried and true performer that's been around longer then most.
I wonder if we are debating the right thing. I come from a gun hunting background so forgive the analogy. The boys in camp shot .30 30 rifles. They came home with stories of deer being too tough for this cartridge so They bought .270 rifles . Same result except they had more unharvested animals. They went on to.300 mags. You guessed the result. Maybe the issue is actually bow tuning. If you get it right any broadhead can be the right choice. I give the edge to mechanical s if the tuning is marginal. If you slap a deer with the whole arrow assuming you hit it at all is a failure but not of the broadhead.
I always get a chuckle that there are guys who will shoot a compound bow - perhaps with a slider sight, drop away rest, and mechanical release - who proclaim the blade actuation required of a mechanical broadhead is fraught with risk. Silly.
A broadhead literally stands between me and succes so when it comes to bigger animals like elk I’ll pass on moving parts on the business end of my arrow.
HAHAHA! Matt^^^
I like the way you think....
I prefer fixed blades for animals, but do shoot turkeys with mechanicals.
Tried mechanicals one season and shot two whitetail bucks. First buck, steep downhill angle, the arrow hit high as expected...but rather than penetrating into the chest cavity, the arrow rode the "shelf" at the top of the rib cage into the neck and lodged there. Did knock the buck off his feet and I was able to climb down and kill him with a second arrow. The second buck was a typical angle, 20 yard shot...slightly quartering away. Arrow bounced off that buck's rib cage....I'm assuming after opening in flight.
My sample size using mechanical heads on big game is only two. I consider both failures....so zero for two. Highly doubt that sample size will ever get bigger.
This debate is funny, and always ends the same way. I'll write what I usually write. Shot placement trumps broadhead type. And, the always controversial, a study showed mechanicals increase the rate of recovery on whitetails.
After 20 years of elk hunting and kill a few and be around a few more. One thing is for sure get them close under 30 yards and hit them right. Out of the 40 plus kills I have been in on only 2 have made it over 200 yards .
12yds, agreed shot placement is critical, however it seems many are missing the point of this thread. This thread is in the elk section, and the OP asked for thoughts on mechanical vs fixed blade for elk, not whitetails.
I agree with Charlie. It's really all about what works best for you, both physically and mentally. Plenty of good options in the industry today. I shoot mechs. at Elk, but I shoot them at everything so nothing out of the ordinary. I will say that I prefer a two blade.
My bad! Sorry. In the case of elk, I still think shot placement is key of course, but use of mechanicals should take into consideration of the specs of the bow being used. Heavy arrow, higher IBO bow, longer draw lengths, higher poundage enable use of a mechanical. If you are lower poundage, lower draw length, lower fps or lighter arrow, I would use a fixed head. I used my 60 pound 29" dl GT500 on my elk hunt this year and used a 486 grain arrow tipped with 150 grain Magnus Stinger 4 blade. I'd be hesitant to use a mechanical unless it had a conservative cut like a Hypo +P or Steelhead.
Just like a mechanical is infinitely more likely to fail per GF’s logic - you can’t argue that a fixed head is infinitely more likely to miss. Putting feathers on the front of your arrow makes it more likely to exaggerate any form issues and wind issues.
This is why, even with a perfectly tuned bow that shoots any fixed head I tie on perfectly out to 100 yards I’d still use a mech for whitetails once the cold weather hits. The forgiveness of a mech was my reasoning.
Until I tried Iron Wills. They are the first FB head I’ve used in the cold. I don’t know what they did to that thing but it shoots like a mech.
Maybe you just stumbled into the perfect tune? Maybe it’s half mental like the other 98% of this sport? I know the Wills appear to be very carefully manufactured, but they did not rewrite the laws of physics regarding laminar flow.
And sorry to argue with you, but your statement that a fixed head is “infinitely more likely to miss” is utter bullschitt. If YOU DECIDE to take a shot which is too far and in too much wind, that’s gonna be on YOU.
Every
Single
Time.
If you don’t know whether your set-up is going to plane in a crosswind, you’re not ready to hunt with it. At least not in a crosswind....
Hard to beat QAD exodus, I love mechs but only use them on deer and bears, I've killed 5 moose and 10 elk with exodus, i won't be changing, totally impressed with this head every time!
Do you have to be humble if you really ARE perfect??
One thing I didn't see is the "Elk Outfitter Test" which to me is that if most Elk Outfitters, who kill and chase down wounded elk more than anyone, don't allow mechanicals - then that's good enough for me!
Matt aka GF have you ever killed a elk??
I used a Magnus hornet in Colorado this year. Shot a 6 pt slightly quartering towards me at 18 yards. Didn’t get a complete pass through but the Brodhead was sticking out 8 inches of the abdomen. Went 48 yards and piled up.
If you are interested in how well mach's kill big game, just take a look at how many and what kinds of big game Tom Mirranda has killed .... he uses mech's almost exclusively. Pretty hard to argue those stats.
“just take a look at how many and what kinds of big game Tom Mirranda has killed .... he uses mech's almost exclusively. Pretty hard to argue those stats.”
Dude...
You are Marketing Exec’s DREAM customer.
NEWS FLASH: Miranda (and every other TV Celebrity “hunter” has exactly ONE selection criterion for which ___________ (piece of equipment) he uses, and that is SPONSORSHIP DOLLARS.
End of Discussion.
It’s a business. What’s going to bring in the Most Money? There’s your answer. Next?
Hit for hit, a 2-blade fixed will kill every bit as cleanly as the largest mechanical on the market (and better than most, when penetration is at a premium) unless you’re talking about a really marginal hit at or behind the diaphragm. Of course, AFT of the diaphragm isn’t even marginal - it’s FUBAR.
SOME times, a big ol’ mechanical CAN save the day - or at least it appears logical to assume so.
But Me Bein’ Me..... If I’m going to look up on the wall at an animal I’ve had mounted, I sure as hell don’t want to be thinking “Gee, sure glad that mechanical pulled my fat outta the fire even though I F####D UP the shot.”
“If you are interested in how well mach's (Doc)kill big game, just take a look at how many and what kinds of big game Tom Mirranda has... LOST when he couldn’t recover an animal because he couldn’t find it because there was no blood trail because there was no exit or because he deliberately held too far back because he had to stay off of the shoulder.
Except (oh.... right....) the sponsors made sure that the lost, wounded animals all stayed on the Cutting Room floor.
USE YOUR MIND, MAN!!! Mechanicals work. They probably even work FINE, most of the time. But they can only work BETTER than a fixed blade when the shooter screwed the pooch in the first place by NOT hitting solid double-lung, and INSTEAD hit too far back to ensure a quick clean kill.
Basic laws of Physics and Probabllity give an indisputable advantage to a fixed blade on anything but a lousy hit.
You can blame a bad hit on the head if it makes you feel better, but in the end, YOU are responsible for what happens when you loose an arrow. And JMO, if you are going to depend on your equipment to make it possible for you to make a good shot at X yards, maybe you really ought to be hunting the firearms season....
Except (ohhhh... RIIIIGHT) the FIREARMS season doesn’t let you hunt during peak rut when it’s so much easier to locate a bull and get within 50 or 75 or 100 yards or whatever distance it is that you think it is that you’re good for because of the equipment that you bought instead of learning how to sneak to within BOW range in the first place.
GF must have at least a 36" draw length.
All that extreme back patting has surely stretched his arms several inches.
27”
At 5’ 4”, I can stretch it a half-inch, but I have to be careful, lest it jack up my accuracy at long range.
At 5’ 4”. That explains it all!!
Way less than ten feet, and next we're going to find out you're not bullet proof either!
Whoda thunk all that awesomeness could fit in such a small space?
shoot it happens all the time to those 5' 6" or less
I remember when my draw length was 27"....I miss the 3rd grade! I kid! I kid! :-D
Even if GF was the size of Hulk Hogan, with camo paint that will stick to his ego, he'd always have a blind around him.
“At 5’4” “... Tink is that you?
I was going to put my 2 cents in, but changed my mind.. :)
Now I will say this,, I've been shooting a head that's been working great for me for 20 plus years.. Ed
I’m a fixed guy for elk. I like Iron Wills Good tough starp head
Wow GF, I didn't realize you followed Tom around to document ALL those lost animals. I guess at 5' 4" you are pretty grounded, so my bad bringing up Mirranda's kills.
Don’t be an idiot.
All I’m saying is that you can’t assume that he would have killed FEWER animals if he had been using fixed blades, especially since getting an exit wound is strongly associated with getting blood on the ground and blood on the ground seems to be the #1 factor in recovering animals that make it out of sight.
You likewise cannot assume that fixed blades would have killed (and led to recovery of) any MORE, although there are multiple good reasons to expect that they would perform at least as well, assuming competent tracking & follow-up.
But I guess I shouldn’t expect much in the way of reading comprehension or critical thinking from an intellectual Pygmy who has to resort to trying to insult me on the basis of my physical stature, rather than coming up with a coherent or even relevant argument.
And I’d rather be in the bottom 5th percentile for height than, say.... Well, Intellect DOES somehow come to mind at the moment.
What was the original question? :)
To the original poster. . . . I am not the expert many on here are regarding elk. I've killed 4 bulls. 2 with cut on contact heads (G5 Montec and Magnus Snuffer), and 2 with mechanicals (Steelhead XL and G5 Deadmeat). I noticed that all of them were dead, equally quickly.
Pick a head you're confident in, and go shoot an elk. It's not rocket surgery :)
OP; My God man you might as well asked should I marry a blonde, brunette or redhead. I have always used fixed blade BHs. The main reason is I have always preferred fixed blade BHs is for most of my working life life I have worked around simple as well as highly complex high performance machinery and I know from experience the more parts something has the greater the odds it will fail and if any of those parts are intended to move to perform their job the odds of failure increase exponentially. I also know my fixed blade BHs of the last 10+ deer seasons Wasp BOSS SST are as tough as any FB or MBH you can buy. I have accidentally shot them into cinder blocks, old tires, steel garbage cans, steel and plastic 55 gallon drums, and even a steel dumpster and not once did my Wasp Boss SST BH's suffer any degree of mechanical failure or loose a blade. Granted none of those items compare in any way to shooting a deer, but here is what it does tell me. If I shoot a deer with a Wasp Boss SST and I fail to recover that deer the fault for which will have absolutely nothing to do with BH failure. Pick a well made BH that is SCARY SCARY sharp and now for THE MOST important part of BH selection: PUT IT where it's INTENDED to go in the animal and you will have few if any problems and I promise you, you will have bought the best BH you can find. The problem is that the FBH VS MBH argument will RAGE on (no pun intended) for ever because for many reasons it is highly unlikely anyone will ever be able to perform an experiment on living animals to conclusively settle the debate once and for all. All other data people use to support their claims of support for FBBH or MBH although compelling is not based on conclusive empirical evidence gathered under controlled laboratory conditions. I don't care how many times you shoot any FBBH or MBH into what ever test media you choose be it ballistic gel, fresh hides of deer or hogs, carpet, plastic, steel, foam targets what ever else, none of it even comes close IMHO to mimicking what happens when a broad head tipped arrow hits and enters a deer, elk or other large big game animal. Until the day comes some one does an experiment where they shoot enough living deer or elk at all possible conditions that mimic exactly every possible shot entry angle and situation and film the arrow as it hits and then enters and or leaves the animal, recover the dead animal then perform a necropsy on every animal, all else will be nothing more than opinion, granted experienced based opinion, but still opinion and not conclusive fact. Pick a BH and commit yourself to taking only high percentage kills shots and educate yourself on deer/elk anatomy and in doing so become intimately knowledgeable on how to make only high percentage shots that give you the greatest chances of putting your BH tipped arrow into and through a deer/elks lungs and or heart. My deciding fact on choosing FBBHs VS MBBHs is based on one personal opinion and two personal 1st hand experiences. #1-OPINION: If I put both a FBBH and a MBBH into a deer or elks chest using a shot angle that gives me a 100% chance of passing through both lungs the FBBH CAN NOT FAIL, the MBH CAN. #2-1st H/experiences: Out of pure curiosity this year I tried two different top of the line OTT deployment MBH's and when shot into my home made foam target at 20 yards I had one brand new never used head from each manufacturer fail to open. That made my decision on BH choice final. I shoot a 437.4 grain arrow at 274fps so yes I had way more than enough KE to ensure any MBH should work/open. For me my Wasp Boss SST's open 100% of the time without fail and unless deer or elk have suddenly grown armor plating they will not suffer a mechanical failure and if I shoot a deer/elk and I fail to recover the animal the blame will be mine not the BH.
" Until the day comes some one does an experiment where they shoot enough living deer or elk at all possible conditions that mimic exactly every possible shot entry angle and situation and film the arrow as it hits and then enters and or leaves the animal, recover the dead animal...."
They did that already except for the filming, and filming wouldn't affect the rates or outcomes.
Actually, some theoretical physicists were able to conduct an experiment which provided very convincing data which suggested that measuring the path of a projectile actually altered the result of the test....
But more practically....
A lot of people use mechanicals because they can’t get FPs and BHs to hit the same spot. In other words, they have a Tuning Issue.
If you could film the arrow strike at high speed, you could determine whether the shaft was flying truly point-on, or impacting askew. And you could see what happens to a shaft when (due to flight characteristics or the impact of the head) it gets bent off line.
So JMO (as is always the case) tho mo’ data, the mo’ betta....
Ambush you're telling me somebody some where gathered up dozens and dozens (I'm guessing close to if not over 100 animals) of live deer and elk, used at the minimum the top 5 best selling OTT and rear deploying mechanical BHs then the top 5 most popular 2, 3 and 4 blade fixed blade BHs then shot one at a time at every possible shot angle at multiple possible pound setting of a bow from minimum legal per state regs to maximum available, under controlled laboratory conditions then had a veterinarian perform a necropsy on every animal killed and recorded every single step, procedure and result from positioning the animal to necropsy? If yes exactly when and where did this happen? And who came up with the 10s if not 100s of thousands of dollars to fund such an experiment?
And if you are trying to say recovered animals from actual hunts are the results you speak of I'm sorry that is not the same as an laboratory experiment as you can not be even 75% certain let alone 100% of any factor affecting the shot from drawing the bow to when the arrow hits the animal, unless you perform all these factors under the controlled laboratory conditions you can not draw any factual conclusions about what results you end up with you can at best only guess. And if you are using data gathered from actual real world hunts, unless it was from hunts not conducted by the broad head manufacturer, I would always hold any results of product tests done by the company who makes and sells that product as suspect at best. IMHO there is no way data gathered from product manufacturers or data from sources who's accuracy or validity can not be 100% verified as factually accurate or unbiased can ever be considered as empirical. Again when and where did this experiment take place and by whom was it conducted?
DMT, what is the question you are posing or seeking the answer to? "What head or type of head kills more reliably in actual hunting conditions?" ?
Switched to these Helix BHs for the 2018 season. They shoot identical to my field points. Killed a buck in Oct (not the one pictured) that only offered me a quatering to shot. Would never of considered that shot with any of my previous BHs!!
Here's the study Ambush is referring to...at my link.
Who doesn't get an exit wound with a mechanical broadhead? If you aren't getting an exit wound you are doing something wrong. That is NOT the equipment's fault that is your fault.
