11 Points in AZ
Mule Deer
This fall has freed up a bit. I have 11 deer points in AZ going into this year and am looking at options. Have heard decent things about unit(s) 3A/B/C.
Does anyone have any input or suggestions? I prefer a DIY or drop camp hunt, but am not totally against outfitted (depending on cost). I can't see myself waiting for a Strip or Kaibab tag and am feeling like I'm in no mans land.
Deer, I am assuming.. PM Sent
BOHNTR - I prefer archery, yes.
PM's returned.
11 should easily get u a kaibab archery tag
13's, you have too much invested for any other choice!
Sounds like I could possibly, draw a 12's tag. How much longer for the 13's?
I would agree with Heat... Hold out for 13 unless you just need to cash in.
I would be applying now! There are no guarantees in the AZ Draw. You could be drawn for 13 with 10 or not drawn with 15 or more, I have seen it happen.
10-4 and thanks again Scar! Gonna really look into this hard over the next 2 weeks and probably throw my name in the hat!
11 NR points give you some good options. You WILL draw Kaibab (12A).....and you can draw 3 A/C. Just depends what type of scenery you want and the chance at a giant. I still prefer the Kaibab over 3 A/C.....and I live in 3B and look around in there all the time.....some nice bucks.....but better ones in the Bab’ IMO.
Thanks Roy! I am kind of at the point where I feel like going big or going home, so I believe it will be one of the 12 or 13 units.
There is a LOT of no-mans land in the 13's, that have very low deer numbers. You can hunt 12A on your own with good numbers of deer scattered across it, but you will most likely need to hire a guide in either of the 13's unless you have a number of weeks to dedicate to it. Guides in the area are normally about $6,000.
^^^ That is a true statement as well!!^^^ I think if I drew 13 I would hire a guide. Not needed for 12a.
Just know, as a NR without max points, you will just likely NEVER draw a 13B archery tag. Just being honest. I got lucky, I had max pints the very first year they offered a 13B archery tag....drew tag #1.....but again, I had max points. There simply is not enough NR tags for the hunt.
You could have hunted 12a twice by now with that many points. Go big or go home!
I have 12 deer points I have never applied for anything except the 13s
Great info guys, thanks a bunch! I don't know why I said I was gonna look into this hard for 2 weeks, more like 4 months! I must've had the elk draw on the brain.
I'm going into this year with 19. Been applying for 13's
I'm going in for 13 with 2 points... this is my year! Ed F
Have 3 points myself.....and I’ll put in for the Strip......but now that I’m a resident, I have a chance!
Roy, didn't you kill a big ol buck there a few years ago?
No Garth that was Roy not me:)
With only half the NR's tags available during the bonus pass, and the rest going to the 1 and 2 pass anyone has a shot at any tag except some sheep and maybe bison hunts. It is not a defacto preference system anymore for NRs and hasn't been for a few years now.
The problem is 13B (archery) only has up to 3 tags for NR’s.....so two for max point holders and one random. When you look at the amount of people putting in for that hunt, if you do not have max points, your odds of drawing are extremely low.
That is true, it is low for 13B but A isn't so bad. You gotta play to win!
As far as archery tags are concerned, Unit 13A has had UP TO 1 NR tag available and 13B has had UP TO 2 NR tags (although far more people apply for the second one, so your odds are likely worse). Of the two tags in 13B, one of them will go to the person with the most points, leaving only UP TO 1 tag in the random drawing (which may or may not go to a NR). Pretty long odds for NR's in those units.
Your odds are <1% for the 13s and will likely never get much better. Your choice is basically to spend your life (and money) building worthless points or go hunting. I know which I'd choose.
Yep, No wiser ^ nailed it. This wasn't hard to predict.
No matter how the Residents want to spin this new draw system....long term non res point holders got screwed.
If you insist on trying to hunt 13B....you have about 80-100 guys ahead of you point wise up to 21 points [and that doesn't include the guys that bank points until they think they can draw] So last year of the 6 guys with 21....they had a 16% chance of drawing that 1 tag for max point holders. One of those poor unlucky schmucks with 21 is going to have to wait another 5 years to draw out.
The only other 13B tag was up for grabs....sure, to the 700+ other non res guys applying.
The new Arizona system flips the bird to non residents.....especially those that had been applying for many years.
The comment by the residents, "But you always have a chance to draw" is hollow when you have spent 20 years buying the licenses and then still only have a 1.5% chance of drawing.
Personally, I would try to draw out in a unit with the points you have.
Bruce:
You're right. But one thing we've ALL learned with states that have point systems implemented (preference or bonus) is that you're not guaranteed a standardized system forever.......they constantly tweak and change the rules as years and demands (whining) increase. Heck when I was a NR and putting in for Arizona immediately after they implemented the BP system, it was a fair and simplistic BP system (no max point pass, etc.) If you drew a tag, you lost your points, if you didn't, you earned another point for next year. Wish it was still like that.....even as a resident.
One of the main reasons I decided to retire here.....to increase my odds of drawing coveted archery tags. But I DO feel your frustration!
I agree with Bruce that those NRs that had lots of points in Arizona were hurt by the changes a few years ago, but I disagree that it "flips the bird at non residents".
I certainly don't like defending our G&F department, but the system was broken and needed to be fixed. What was intended to be a bonus point system (giving everyone a chance every year) inadvertently became a preference point system for NRs. That was never intended when the system was implemented, and it had to be fixed because things were only getting worse each year. Unfortunately, this did hurt those NRs with the most points (which are those that have been loyal to the system the longest), but in my opinion it helped NRs overall and especially in the future. I feel your frustration, but I do think they did about as fair a job as possible trying to make it better. I can't say that for the lion's share of what they do.
But, Marvin, it only became a ‘preference point system’ for NR’s when they changed the rules to have a ‘max BP’ drawing before the main drawing. If they would have left it as a straight BP system we wouldn’t have this issue, correct?
Yes, Roy, you're 100% correct. In fact, deer wasn't even on the bonus point system for years, only elk, antelope, bison and sheep. I too wish they would have just left it the way it was when it all first started.
Something of note, if you're willing to hunt 13A and not just 13B, then the numbers get a lot better than what was posted above and a lot of guys put in for 13B 1st and 13A second.
Odds in 13 for the 1 random tag that each unit have are actually not that bad, especially in 13A. In fact, the odds of drawing the tag in 13A are twenty times better than drawing a Utah Henry Mountains deer tag with the same amount of points as a NR. But you have to put in every year to have a shot in any unit where you won't catch the first pass.
Two years ago, I drew 13A with 5 points. The biggest problem with the unit is not the low draw odds (low draw odds means better quality deer), but the fact that the draw results come out 7 weeks before the season starts which makes planning a huge problem. I already had two hunts in August/Sept and had to cram to fit in 5 days of hunting. I didn't fill my tag, passing up boat loads of 150-170 inch deer (passing up scores of dear that would have been my biggest) and saw two monsters.
I hope to draw the tag again some day and honestly, putting in for the next 30-40 years, I think I will.
12 points in 13A last last year was 1 in 20. That ain't bad.
If any of you want to take a cool weekend vacation, go into the highlands of 13A in the summer and camp and just hike around. You'll see roving bands of 2-3 year old bucks in 3-7 head herds about every mile and herds of 4-5 year old bucks in 3-5 head herds in the same area - it's a crazy experience and it'll give you a taste of "how it should be" if we didn't shoot the Hell out of our herds as we do in most places.
It's good that the masses of hunters have the opportunity they do, but it's incredible how it can be by limiting tags and that's why these tags are so coveted.
You guys are right on the money. I didn't realize the numbers had gone down as much in 13A. I was assuming it was 30 or 40 tags as it had been maybe a few years ago.
On the bonus pass deal I don't have any huge gripes, but if they throw this new pay for education point in, all bets are off. One of the ways I heard it pitched might wreak havoc for some.
Can I put one of the 13's as my 1st choice, but still guarantee drawing a 12 unit as my 2nd choice?
Yes, the bonus pass considers your 1st and 2nd choices.
Marvin/Roy, Yeah...thx for the common sense replies..... there is a chance I may be an AZ resident at some point....so i shouldn't have let my extreme butthurt go wild here. AZ is lucky to have a couple quality guys like yourselves!
When I saw this coming [we all talked about it here] I decided to draw out in AZ and had a pretty good hunt considering what I had going on at the time with my dad passing away a couple days into the hunt.
No worries, Bruce. I'm sure I'd feel cheated too if I had been loyal and built-up a bunch of NR points. I'm just not sure there was a better path to take that would keep the opportunity from being completely out of reach for any new hunters wanting to start applying in the state, while still trying to be as fair as possible to those with large amounts of points. Unfortunately, on hunts like this that have so few tags, it's just not going to work out well. But on most elk hunts, etc., where you are dealing with a lot more available tags, I think it was probably for the best. if you might become a resident at some point, it might definitely be wise to hold-off cashing them in for a lesser hunt. Roy, Ed and myself have all had good experiences on the Strip. But there will quickly be a point, due to aging, where I will want to try to hunt more often and be less likely to go so many years between tags and switch my choice to the Kaibab. As a resident, I had 14 bonus points when I drew in 2017, and that still wasn't enough to be in the bonus pass even for a resident. I just got lucky. Glad to see you did well on your elk hunt, when you cashed your points, and sorry to hear about the loss of your father. I lost mine last year as well.
Yeah, my buddy shot a 230" [I think it was] buck on the strip last year....said he saw 5 over 190". A pretty amazing place.
"Can I put one of the 13's as my 1st choice, but still guarantee drawing a 12 unit as my 2nd choice?"
Yes, but the way the AZ draw works, if you put your first choice as a tag that you do not fall into the bonus point pool and a second chance that you do fall into the BP draw, then you have absolutely zero chance of drawing your 1st choice.
The reason is this: Your only chance of drawing your 1st choice is if you only fall into the random pool, which comes after you've already drawn the tag in this scenario.
If you pick two units where you will not fall into the BP pass, then you'll not draw in the BP pass and in the second go-round (random pass or preference points pass) you'll have a shot at both.
But if you cannot draw your 1st choice in the BP pass but can draw your second choice, your application will never see the light of day in the second draw where you have a chance for your 1st choice.
So if you have, say, 11 points for deer in AZ and put in for 13B archery 1st choice and 12 archery second choice, you will certainly draw 12 and you have absolutely zero chance of drawing 13B. If you put in for just 13B 1st choice and leave your second choice blank, then you'll have a chance at the one random tag in 13B, which last year was around 1 in 100.
Thanks Ike. That's kind of a crock. "1st Choice" is a bit misleading then.
If I drew a "12" archery tag, can I hunt ANY of the "12" units? A, B, East, West? Of is it unit specific. I can't find it in the regs.
Archery hunt on the Kaibab is unit 12.....it includes E & W......and B......but I wouldn’t focus much there (B), as it is mainly a winter range area.
You can always choose to bowhunt during the rifle season on any hunt. There are a lot more permits during the rifle hunt, which means more NR tags available.
With all those points go Kiabab/Strip...You only live once GO!!!
Pay heed to what Marvin and Roy are saying! Nobody knows the draw "game" better --- you can take what they say to the bank. Just don't miss the Feb. 12 draw deadline (not fun if you wait 'til the last couple days and then experience problems getting your application submitted) ...
This thread makes me Wonder where I stand with my 18 deer points...…………
Good luck, Robb
Robb, according to the stats from the last drawing, I calculate that you should have enough to draw the muzzy tag in either 12A or 12B (mid-Nov, can use a bow during muzzy); or 12AB archery; 13A only has one permit available to NRs, so it can't go in the bonus round; and there were 19 people with more points than you that applied for archery 13B, and about 11 with the same amount as you, that didn't draw last year. So you will need a LOT of years if you're waiting for the one bonus pass archery 13B tag available to you each year (unless drawn in the random draw), an unknown number of years to get lucky and randomly draw one of the single random tags available in each of the Strip units to NRs, but you can go hunting now in most all of the rest of the hunts (except rifle Strip tags which have really long odds).
Thanks Marvin
I'm tossing those muzzy options around for a Muley as I can't see a Couse unit that would need my points to draw it.
Then again, I might just go with the ole logic of the NFL On Any Given Sunday/In any given states draw!! haha
Good luck, Robb
