I read most of the posts about using electric collars and fair chase. I’m curious what bowsite thinks of this?
If you don’t want to read the article here are the cliffs. A bill was introduced in Montana that would make it illegal to sell the location of a game animal because it’s unfair to other hunters, and it’s not fair chase.
I understand if you don’t like the practice. But is it unfair and not fair chase?
This bill is also has support from Montana Fish, Wildlife & Parks, the Montana Wildlife Federation, Back Country Hunters and Anglers and the Montana Bowhunters Association.
For example a dude sitting in his parents basement flying a drone locates the trophy animal and sells location to the dude sitting at the trailhead on his electric bike that identifies as nonmotorized.
When I was younger I worked for an outfitter that would fly the unit we were hunting and radio us locations of animals in the wilderness. This was not coordinates, just landmarks and approximation. For the guides on the ground, we then had to get to that area and hunt it hard to find the bull that they had spotted from the air. It was not that difficult to find those animals afterward, sometimes days later. I didn’t consider it very sporting then and now and its not legal in most states.
Now a days these drones are able to fly very long distances, take photos or videos of animals with gps coordinates and dates. It would be easy to sell those coordinates for that animal online. Or even keep tabs on a particular animal over time to get his habits figured out or direct feeding of information back to a hunter of in real time.
But it is fair chase and ethical if during a summer trail ride a guide spots that same buck and takes a client right to it?
What if an acquaintance tells me about a big buck he saw while sheep scouting? Is that fair chase and ethical since I didn't find the animal on my own?
What about lion hunting with dogs. As a client is all I do is pay money, make sure no one looks at the gps ;) and follow the guide to where the cat is in the tree. And shoot an animal out of a tree.
If paying money for a lion hunt where is all you have to be able to do as the hunter is keep up with the guide and be able to shoot 30 yards is fair chase, then how is getting the location of an animal that you still have to actually spot, stalk, and kill not fair chase?
I honestly can't wrap my head around the differences between a scouting package and a guided hunt. Or the fact that it is perfectly acceptable to pay someone to run a cat up a tree so you can kill it but it isn't acceptable to pay for the location of an animal?
Can someone please explain the differences? Why shooting an animal out of a tree that you paid someone to run up the tree is ethical and fair chase but it isn't ethical and fair chase to pay for info on an animal?
Personally I dont see any equation to the examples you stated. This bill supports the tenets of fair chase and quite frankly that's a worthy idea to support as hunters. Kudos to the organizations that subscribe to fair chase hunting.
MuleyBum 's Link
Asks the guy who is selling the location data....
In general I support the bill. Only issue I have with it is this in the exemptions: " an outfitter or guide licensed pursuant to Title 37, chapter 47, part 3, employed by a nonresident hunter" Why only employed by a "non-resident" hunter?
Colorado, who offers more hunting opportunity that any western state, has turned into California. Idaho has california immigration issues. If we don't clean up our act, we will get our clocks cleaned for us real fast.
I am free market, free country, capitalist sort of guy, but the risk on this one ain't worth it.
I was in a room full of 50 or so hunters last night, and polled the audience on if they think it should be banned. Wide majority supported banning it.
My plans may or may not include waypoints. But they certainly aren’t the location of a particular animal. I find that to be ridiculous. Impossible!
The only thing that is along those lines is the Mossback style service where an army of scouters camp out on top of an animal and keep tabs on it until the “hunter” shows up.
My waypoints give my clients the path of least resistance to good hunting areas. Make no mistake about it they still have to fairly chase the game after they locate it for themselves. In my opinion it’s more of a fair chase service than actual guiding.
Many of us on this site don’t feel that harvesting an animal that a guide led you too is much of an accomplishment at all compared to a diy harvested animal. But if you live 2000 miles from the game you want to hunt and maybe don’t have a clue where to begin someone telling you where to camp and which way to hike to go do it yourself doesn’t take away from the accomplishment or the ethics of it. It just saves you time sorting through dead zones in country bigger than some people have ever seen.
If this doesn’t seem right to you why then is it ok to come to internet forums and ask about draw units, outfitters, tactics etc etc?
I think some people look at it as the old saying goes “tie one to a tree for me”. Lighten up Francis that just doesn’t happen. Even if I did tell you what mountain a big mule deer buck likes to hang out on if you don’t have your act together he will certainly see you before you see him if you see him at all. If you even have the right gear and are in good enough shape to get to that point in the first place.
We all laugh at the gadgets that are advertised every year that claim to make you a better hunter. Go ahead and try to “Forget the wind just hunt”. None of that crap replaces the skill and experience it takes to match wits with a wild animal. A scouting service is no different. Again I’m not talking about a waypoint of the exact location of an animal. But how the heck can that exist unless he’s really tied to a tree?
Section 1. Sale of wildlife location and identification information for hunting 11 prohibited -- penalties -- exemptions. 12 (1) A person may not advertise or receive remuneration for providing a hunter with location and 13 identification information of a game animal as defined by 87-2-101 or trophy animal as described in 87-6-907 to 14 aid the hunter in the taking of that specific big game animal or trophy animal. 15 (2) Location and identification information prohibited by subsection (1) includes: 16 (a) geographical coordinates of the location of the animal or any maps, drawings, illustrations, or other 17 documents that show the location of the animal; and 18 (b) photographs, drawings, descriptions, or other information that identify the animal. 19 (3) (a) A person convicted of a violation of this section shall be fined not less than $50 or more than 20 $1,000 or be imprisoned in the county detention center for not more than 6 months, or both. In addition, the 21 person, upon conviction or forfeiture of bond or bail, may be subject to forfeiture of any current hunting, fishing, 22 or trapping license issued by this state and the privilege to hunt, fish, or trap in this state or to use state lands, 23 as defined in 77-1-101, for recreational purposes for a period of time set by the court. 24 (b) A violation of this section may also result in an order to pay restitution pursuant to 87-6-905 through 25 87-6-907. 26 (4) This section does not apply to: 27 (a) government agencies or employees, contractors, or designees of a government agency performing 28 lawful duties; 29 (b) resident landowners guiding hunters on land owned by or leased to the landowner; or 30 (c) an outfitter or guide licensed pursuant to Title 37, chapter 47, part 3, employed by a nonresident.
I know in Wyoming that made laws about scouting from the air. The made it illegal one month prior to the opening of the mule deer season. But the fact is it was a widespread issue. Just one outfitter who’s success on monster bucks made it obvious that it was having an affect and it pissed a few people off. Sometimes it doesn’t take much to rub a person... the wrong person the wrong way.
That aside....like already asked, what is the rate of incidence? Is this a knee-jerk reaction bill to a few incidences? Do other states have the same type law? To me....it seems more lazy than illegal.
On the other hand....what is done for the handicapped hunters to make things easier for them? Is an animal already located for them? Will handicapped hunters be SOL or negatively impacted with this proposed bill?
So I suspect simpler things like selling GPS coordinates of trophy animals is going on in many places on a relatively frequent basis.
This will not make selling locations illegal, it will impose the requirement to be licenced to do so.
And more importantly, there is a simple loophole being ignored.
The bill if passed without amendments would make only make it illegal to sell this information to a "Hunter", and only if sold for the purpose of aiding in the hunting of that particular animal.
A service selling the exact same information with a disclaimer that the information is being sold only for purposes "other than for hunting" would still be legal....
There is no legal imposition placed on people who purchase the info. They can do with it as they please.
I sympathize with the intent, but this is very poor legislation.