eBike Generation
WI Looking at Reducing Xbow Season
Whitetail Deer
Contributors to this thread:
midwest 05-Feb-19
The dream 05-Feb-19
APauls 05-Feb-19
LINK 05-Feb-19
Jaquomo 05-Feb-19
IdyllwildArcher 05-Feb-19
Pat Lefemine 05-Feb-19
stagetek 05-Feb-19
Huntcell 05-Feb-19
12yards 05-Feb-19
Jake 05-Feb-19
Trial153 05-Feb-19
happygolucky 05-Feb-19
LINK 05-Feb-19
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Jethro 05-Feb-19
happygolucky 05-Feb-19
12yards 05-Feb-19
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SaltyB 05-Feb-19
YZF-88 05-Feb-19
JTV 05-Feb-19
Bowbender 05-Feb-19
jjs 05-Feb-19
Kevin Dill 05-Feb-19
Glunker 05-Feb-19
Charlie Rehor 05-Feb-19
Zbone 05-Feb-19
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From: midwest
05-Feb-19

midwest's Link

From: The dream
05-Feb-19
Amen

From: APauls
05-Feb-19
Wow what a shocker. Crossbows lead to more kills. Not having to draw a bow in the presence of a whitetail with all it's senses really makes a difference eh?

From: LINK
05-Feb-19
Right on. And when the cut compound season down I’m switching to a stick.

From: Jaquomo
05-Feb-19
Great example of a state recognizing the distinction between effectiveness of xbows vs. bows after the grand experiment got out of hand. At least they aren't considering shortening the bow season too

05-Feb-19
Be careful what you wish for Wisconsin. They might just limit it to the rut and concentrate more hunter days during the best times to hunt.

Unless they limit crossbow-legal days between Oct 24 and Nov 30, it's not going to make much difference.

From: Pat Lefemine
05-Feb-19
Interesting how all the industry guys who demonized anyone who didn’t drink the XBow cool aide are laying low now.

From: stagetek
05-Feb-19
WI. is a great example of being "able" to cut the season down, but they haven't done anything yet. And, I agree with the above. Shortening the x-gun season is only half the issue. When the (shortened) season actually takes place is the other half.

From: Huntcell
05-Feb-19
Currently the mid to late November 9 day gun season is available for any weapon and most likely will remain no matter what other season plan they have for the vertical and horizontal stringers.

From: 12yards
05-Feb-19
One of the major reasons I opposed xbows in archery seasons from the beginning is these things are improving annually. They are now approaching 500 fps velocities. As they get more compact, more accurate and faster they are going to have a much more pronounced impact on deer harvest. The advantage over vertical bows increases every year.

From: Jake
05-Feb-19
What they need to do is eliminate the scope on crossbows. That would put an end to speed and make it a close range weapon as it should be in the primitive weapons season. And heaven forbid if you want the vertical bow back to where it is a primitive weapon eliminate the mechanical releases. Those two changes would bring us back closer to the stick and straight. Stick and string is still the pure way of hunting but,,,,,,,,,,

From: Trial153
05-Feb-19
The limit needs changed to be out of all archery seasons and moved to the appropriate place. The regular season.

From: happygolucky
05-Feb-19
What will be interesting in WI when the arguments in the NRB start is that the combined xbow + archery kills for 4 years is actually lower than in the 4 years prior to xbows being allowed. I believe WI is going to make a minor change to appease the bowhunters and gun hunters and that change will have little impact on the xbow hunters. If you look at the options, and those are just proposals that don't have to be chosen from, none of them would impact the xbow hunters much. What they are arguing about right now is about saving 5-7k bucks for the gun hunters in a herd that is probably 1.2m-1.5m. When people take the emotion out of it and purely look at the real numbers, it would be easy for the pro-xbow people to make an argument. Without the NRA though, the xbow people don't seem to have a united front.

From: LINK
05-Feb-19
Jake with all due respect I don’t think that will help much. Over 20 years ago when I was 14 I sighted in my dads crossbow for him. He had a myriad of health issues. Anyway, peep only and a handful of shots and I was deadly as far as my back yard would reach (50 yards). Thing was like shooting a .22 even with a peep and a single copper pin on a dial.

From: LINK
05-Feb-19
Happy I would think limiting x bows to weekdays like proposed would have a significant impact on harvest numbers by x bows. Especially considering most cross guners are likely weekend only people.

From: Jethro
05-Feb-19
The problem is not that too many bucks are being killed. Its that the bucks aren't being killed by rifle hunters. That's not herd management, that's rifle hunter pacification.

From: happygolucky
05-Feb-19
LINK, the latest Wisconsin Outdoor News had estimates on the bucks shot with xbows during those 7 options. Closing the xbow season on weekends came with an estimated saving of 6,900 bucks. Those numbers won't have any impacts other than appeasing the bowhunters and gunhunters who would actually think a few thousand bucks in a herd the size of WI's would actually matter.

From: 12yards
05-Feb-19
Number of deer killed may not tell the whole story. Fewer deer killed may simply mean fewer deer were out there.

From: happygolucky
05-Feb-19

From: LINK
05-Feb-19
Happy I realize cutting a buck harvest from 150k to 143k isn’t huge but it’s not hardly negligible either. However I get your point about them catering to the gun hunters.

From: RutnStrut
05-Feb-19
The gun only hunters have the numbers. Catering to them isn't stupid.

From: Brotsky
05-Feb-19
I'm all for limiting crossbows but this math is a little sketchy to me. These bucks that are being "saved". Who is to say they won't keep meandering onto the neighboring property to be killed by a bowhunter? I'd much rather see the bowhunter kill them but I don't know that "saving them from crossbows" is going to turn them into gun kills automatically.

From: jjs
05-Feb-19
The Wi. x-bow season is separate from the archery season that runs concurrently, once the State created this season it will not eliminate it but can change the date season by either reducing it before the rut (30 day) or run it along the gun deer season and afterwards or put it with the ML season. The NRA lobbied the state with special interest for a general season and ran around the WBH majority to keep it out and the compromise was to give the x-bow their own season with a 3 year trail to see the impact it has on the deer/buck kill. The time trial is pass due and it is time for an immediate change. I did live in Wi for 21 yrs and every Public Conservation Spring Hearings I attended the x-bow was voted down in the county when tabled I lived in and now live across the River from the state and Mn is still holding the reigns on the x-bow except if one is 60+ or disabled and dreading if or when this will be allowed in the general bow season, I'm pushing 67. The common sense for Wi, is just go back to the bow season of no shoulder device involvement unless one does have a arm missing or a neurological disease for an x-bow and ban all baiting with the CWD in the state but the rat is out of the box and will be very hard to put it back. Jethro, you are right about the gun hunters and the gun hunters are gravitating to the x-bow for that reason. Funny, remember Pat would delete any x-bow topic, I was deleted a few times for posting on the x-bow, times have change.

From: SaltyB
05-Feb-19
I've lived in WI my whole life. Hunted mostly public and since the x-gun showed up there are a lot more people hitting those woods during bow season. Limiting the use of them has to happen. I dont gun hunt much but rutnstrut is right, the numbers game wins all the time. Also, as for the NRA. I was a member. Once they decided to ruin archery seasons by pushing x-guns on us I dropped out. They'll never get another dime from me.

From: YZF-88
05-Feb-19
I remember a crossbow advertisement in a NRA magazine a few months ago. It stated something to the effect of "Your Next Rifle". Enough said.

Sad to see what's happening in WI. Out of the 11 people I know that used to archery hunt, only 3 still use a vertical bow there. The others have converted. Feels like a tradition is slowly being taken apart. Others probably feel like a tradition is being built.

From: JTV
05-Feb-19

JTV's embedded Photo
JTV's embedded Photo
Good for Wisc. .... coming to a state near you !! ... I wish Indiana would just put them in with ALL the shoulder fired weapons seasons ... it used to be true handicap only, then they went to Late season with the guns, then the free for all in the Archery season ...

From: Bowbender
05-Feb-19
Wish that ad was around when PA (with the NRA's) help gave them full inclusion into the archery season.

From: jjs
05-Feb-19
JTV, I know what I can do to my AR platform is to warf it for the x-gun blackout.

From: Kevin Dill
05-Feb-19
"Meet your next rifle" so perfectly sums up the advantages of crossbows and the mentality of that industry. On a sliding scale, the crossbows of today are moving the cursor much closer to firearm effectiveness and similarity.

From: Glunker
05-Feb-19
Every event I have been to that had a NRA presence they heard what I thought about them sticking their nose in our archery season. Same thing every time they call me asking for money.

05-Feb-19
In the last 10 years Crossbow manufacturers have battled one another for market share with absolutely NO guiding parameters with the hunter/users as to fair chase limitations. Now the Crossbows are truly becoming cross gun accurate, faster and smaller. See ad above.

This is in stark contrast to the limits on technology guidance given by the Pope & Young Club to current acceptable archery equipment. I am very glad we have P&Y Club to offer guidance to keep fair chase archery hunting seasons special.

This WI proposal could be very beneficial Nationwide to curb the spread of Crossbows in Archery season. I doubt the manufacturers will step up and scale back these weapons or accept guidelines.

Good luck WI!

From: Zbone
05-Feb-19
Yeah that ad above, they were shooting 3" groups at 100 yards with that thing...

From: Bill Obeid
05-Feb-19
I don’t remember anyone threatening to to shorten the archery season After compound bows were introduced into archery season .

Burns my butt when anyone tries to compare a bow with a crossbow.

From: longspeak74
05-Feb-19
If you want a good laugh, just go look at the crossbow threads on the WI forum. Sad...

From: Franklin
05-Feb-19
They carry the Crossbow Derangement Syndrome around like a disease over there...lol

From: LKH
05-Feb-19
Be careful what you wish for. Do some research and you'll find out OR discovered that compounds greatly increased the effectiveness of archers. Perhaps the states will go back to trad seasons being much longer than compound seasons???

I've watched hunting shows where the archer cocks his compound, holding back an immense 12-15 pounds for 2-3 minutes.

On other shows, they shoot 70 yards plus.

Not too sure the advantage of a cross bow over a compound is nearly as great as that of a compound over a trad bow.

From: bighorn
05-Feb-19
Let them hunt with any weapon archery, muzzleloader, rifle, one buck a season your done plus a doe.

From: Jake
05-Feb-19
The wi. forum is a crazy place. Capt is real jewel there. He is their spokesperson. I gave them a challenge. If the crossbow is just like a gun then I propose this; One person any crossbow with crossbow specific scope and the other with any gun of his choosing with rifle scope. One walks out to 200 yards and they commence to shooting. First one hit is the loser. I had no takers. HUH, guess the rifle just might be the superior weapon after all.

From: RJN
05-Feb-19
Jake- go get your head examined. You will get eatin alive by these guys. Xguns and bowsite dont mix. Jake has been a troll on the wi site for months supporting xguns, time for him to go.

From: Jake
05-Feb-19
Have every right to be here just like you have RJN. You are no better than anyone else.

From: JTV
05-Feb-19
Crossbows DO NOT belong in archery seasons ...period !! .... put them with the rest of the shoulder fired weapons

From: APauls
05-Feb-19
Sure, make a lengthened stick bow season :)

From: Ambush
05-Feb-19
Hey Jake. How about you use a compound and square off against a "meet your next rifle" crossbow shooter, at one hundred yards?

Of course you just have to survive the first shot, then you could run up to him, point blank, before he got cocked and loaded again.

From: Jake
05-Feb-19
The slogan is; Meet your next rifle. NOW you can not remember it. It is your group that believes that an xgun/crossgun is the same as a rifle and should be in that season. I just wanted to prove that the rifle is superior by far.

From: GF
05-Feb-19
Kinda interesting that the guys who are calling for Crossbow bans aren't looking to see any additional restrictions on compounds, even though CO is now floating the idea of limiting archery Elk tags due to the high levels of participation/harvest as compounds have gotten easier and easier to use, and faster, and... and... and...

At least they’ve always been right on the x-bow question....

From: Jake
05-Feb-19
I would go with a month shorter at the beginning of the season. BUT, if compounds kill more bucks then it needs to be restricted or at least revisited and discussed.

From: Wishedhead
05-Feb-19
Pat- funny u noticed that too. After the Xbow manufacturers stuck thier vacuum into everyone’s wallet and sucked the hundreds out of it, they left them at the alter. No Xbow clubs, no xbow kid programs no donations to conservation efforts -nothing. It’s nothing more than a big money grab. They didn’t give 2 craps about any resource, only cash. Now it’s time to move on to the next state with them. And the idiots that are nothing more than sheep will flock to the easy way and fill thier pockets again.

From: Drop Tine
06-Feb-19
The one thing as an archer in Wi. I worry about is we generally have a prehunt population of 1.2M to 1.5M deer.

The number of hunters is in decline and well as the overall harvest in the state all weapons combined.

The deer still need to be managed. Depending on the area of the state you look at the Northern Forested area is managed to 15 deer per square mile. While in the Southern Farmland area it can go to 25 PSM.

It takes a substantial harvest to reach those management goals. The traditional 9 day gun season has been that driver. But with the declining participation and harvest we have gone from 9 gun hunting days to 40+ gun hunting days and the harvest is still in decline.

So far we have kept guns out of the rut. But we are running out of days and I’m quite sure to meet management goals there will be more days added for the gun hunters. Where in the calendar is an issue that will come up.

The crossbow season started in 2014. The years of 2011 - 2013 bowhunters killed 44,000, 45,000, and 41,000 Bucks. The crossbow seasons leading up to the 2018/19 crossbow hunters killed 38,000 Bucks.

With the bowhunters there was no concern with the high buck kills in the years 2011 - 2013 numbers yet to be reached by crossbow hunters and suddenly there is an issue.

By pushing crossbows out and shortening the season we will surely be sharing the woods with more gun hunting days and having to wear blaze orange while doing so.

I’ve been an archer since 1963 when my dad put a bow in my hand. I’ve seen the compound development and encroach into the bow season. I’ve seen the gun season expand from 9 to over 40 and I predict it will expand again if we take days away from the crossbow hunters.

The herd still needs to be managed and the DNR needs license money.

From: JF
06-Feb-19
7 Scenarios

https://dnr.wi.gov/About/NRB/2019/Jan/2019-01-4B1.pdf

Joe

From: RJN
06-Feb-19
Wishedhead- nailed it! It's all about the $$. Droptine- (xgun supporter) xgun rate of success has surpassed gun and bow hunters for bucks in just a few years. It's time to adjust the xgun season to gun season only and if anything late season. This is a crucial time to preserve the future of archery in WI.

06-Feb-19
Scoped modern crossbows are more "lethal" than hand drawn bows????? Hard to believe so many are surprised by this. Why do you think where scoped crossbows are legal for all during archery seasons over half of the former bowhunters have now quit bow hunting to become scoped crossbows hunters? Well, because scoped crossbows are more effective and better long range weapons. Scoped crossbows make hunting and killing much easier, that is why so many have quit bow hunting to become crossbow hunters. Who would have thunk?

From: Jake
06-Feb-19
Missouri that is human nature. We would still be riding around on horses instead of cars if the thought process were different. Same thing when the compound came out. They lost a lot of Stick and String shooters to compounds and more came in from other avenues. And yes deer harvests went way up because compound were and are easier than stick and string. Now crossbows are coming of age and compounders are stunned. Who would have thunk.

06-Feb-19
"Stunned", jake? Nooooooooo not stunned at all, this was predicted and expected. Thats why the separate season. Keep twisting

From: jjs
06-Feb-19
True story a middle age lady bought a new x-bow and went home and practice with it, brought it back to the sports shop where she bought it because the string were worn and the owner told her not to practice the strings are not made for continue shooting like the regular bows, once the sights are sighted In you do not need to shoot it, it is like your rifle. Explains it all.

From: Glunt@work
06-Feb-19
The thing is, we surpassed the bow and arrow hundreds of years ago. Archery season is (or was) purposely going backwards. That was the whole point.

06-Feb-19
It is not human nature. Our modern bow hunting fore fathers worked hard to get archery accepted, and to establish separate seasons. This group knew full well the longbows and recurves of the day were far less effective than rifles, that was the challenge. Bowhunting was established to be a challenge, a step back in effectiveness. If we are not going to keep it that way then simply have one season, use whatever weapon you choose to fill your available tags.

And always remember, bow hunters use bows, and scoped crossbow hunters use scoped crossbows. You are not a bow hunter, or bow hunting, if your weapon is a scoped crossbow. Do not lie to you wife, kids and friends.

From: JTV
06-Feb-19
Whether is is using a recurve or Compound, either are STILL a challenge... there have been numerous times Ive had to pass on deer with my compound that would hve been easy kills with a cross bow ... My BOW is still hand drawn, hand held and not shoulder fired like a firearm ... these are facts and truth the crossbow daffies will never over come ... I am a BOWhunter, those crossbow guys are just shooters ... you users are not BOWhunters ... period ...

From: Jake
06-Feb-19
Wrong jtv you should not use recurve or compound even in the same sentence. I am sure that you want to but facts are facts. Recurve is hand drawn to max poundage. Compound the finger never touch the string and after the let-off it is next to nothing to hold. Recurves take countless hours to master and some never do. Compound are easily mastered and are much much faster than recurves. Why do you think that so many people jumped into archery after the coming of the compound? Think

From: Hh76
06-Feb-19
Damn it. The Wisconsin page is nearly ruined with every thread being the same arguments and name calling. Now it's spreading to the main page!

From: Jake
06-Feb-19
Hh, some just have a differing opinion than your used to. It is OK.

From: Brotsky
06-Feb-19
It's a proven fact that a small manhood can be overcome with the latest, greatest crossbow. Do you bowhunters have to have everything? Give crossbow guys a break!

From: Jake
06-Feb-19
Brotsky, better than no manhood and shooting compound wanting to be a recurve shooter. Wink

From: APauls
06-Feb-19
Good hunters will do well regardless of the weapon in their hands. You don't ever hear them touting the weapon they use as a "badge of honor." That's usually reserved for the guys that struggle but use the weapon as a crutch. Be it a bow hunter talking to a rifle hunter or trad guys talking to the rest of the world. It's common sense that trad bows are more difficult to use than compounds, and compounds are more difficult to use than crossbows, and crossbows are more difficult than inline muzzleloaders and inline muzzleloaders are more difficult than rifles, and rifles are more difficult than laser guided missiles, etc.

The big distinction that makes crossbows and airguns separate from all other forms of archery is there is no need to draw in the presence of an animal. It is a shouldered weapon.

From: JTV
06-Feb-19
Jake has again proven himself to be the fool almost all here knows he is ... it is really sad that a person cant see the obvious difference between BOWs and crossbows and hangs on to a load of misinformation as Jake does to push his agenda ... Once again I thank the Pope and Young for seeing these things(crossbows) for what they are ...

Crossbow Policy Statement

The Pope and Young Club was founded to promote bowhunting and to record for posterity the outstanding examples of North American big game animals taken solely with the hunting bow.

For the purpose of the Pope and Young Club, a bow shall be defined as a longbow, recurve bow or compound bow that is hand-held and hand-drawn, and that has no mechanical device to enable the hunter to lock the bow at full or partial draw. Other than the energy stored by the drawn bow, no device to propel the arrow will be permitted.

Consequently, the Pope and Young Club does not consider the crossbow to be a hunting bow and will not accept any trophies collected by crossbow hunters. Further, the Pope and Young Club considers the use of crossbows during bowhunting seasons to be a serious threat to the future of bowhunting.

The Pope and Young Club therefore recommends the crossbow should not be considered for use in any bowhunting only season. Also, the Club strongly recommends that crossbow hunting be abolished from all existing bowhunting only seasons. We encourage all states and provinces which desire to allow use of crossbows for hunting big game, to require mandatory crossbow specific education, licensing, seasons and reporting requirements

From: Jake
06-Feb-19
APauls that just is not true. With today's compound bows with 95% let-off you can draw (I mean pull back the string with a mechanical device) way before the animal gets there. Your only holding a couple of pounds with your wrist. It is true with a recurve you have to draw with your fingers when the game is there. That is tough. I used to have to draw when the animal was there because in 2002 my compound had 50% and I shot fingers at 220fps. Mechanical releases were the rage but I thought that it took to much away from the sport. I did not care if anyone else used them. That was just me.

From: stagetek
07-Feb-19
I would be willing to bet the NRA is behind promoting x-guns in all these states. Just like they were in WI. They have always hated bow hunting. What better way to reduce the use of vertical bows than to help promote to you... "your next rifle". Perhaps, if you're a true bow hunter, it's time to send the NRA a message !

From: Zbone
07-Feb-19
""your next rifle". Perhaps, if you're a true bow hunter, it's time to send the NRA a message !"

I became a NRA Life Member probably close to 25 - 30 years ago, but after I learned their stand on xbows, I quit sending them money a few years ago...

From: Myke
07-Feb-19
I know this may sound stupid to many. But WI hunters hunting pre-leaf drop (Nov 5th or so) with weapons capable of shooting >100 yards are going to find themselves and everyone else afield, wearing a required blaze orange or blaze pink. And all the general public will need to wear that too, in the fall color time frame before leaf drop when so many non hunters are afield. Good luck with compliance of non hunters on that topic. In 2018, WI shifted 89,000 more hunters into this period via the crossbow season, primarily from the gun hunters who normally hunt around Thanksgiving. And the shift has not plateaued, yet. Change should be required for the earlier portion of the season. Either loose the scopes, or back the season off until after the leaf drop. Safety first, or the general public will come down hard on crossbow hunters far more than what gun hunters themselves are capable of. 'Your next rifle talk' and the speed of technology advancement is stupid, stupid, stupid left unchecked. And most likely, the vertical bowhunters will feel it too. Focus on the real storm on the horizon.

From: Jake
07-Feb-19
Sage advice Myke. I would gladly even with these old eyes give up the scope to save the sport. It is also true that vertical hunters are not immune to technology either. They just do not have a greedy get rich quick company like Ravin that prey on the novice and gun hunter crowd. Mechanical releases and next holding 5% at full draw are a couple. Range finders have changed hunting out west forever. It is a primitive sport and all of us ruined it with Technology. Ethical hunting be damn. Get rid of the scopes. Greed will kill the sport.

From: Wishedhead
07-Feb-19
NRA stopped getting my family’s cash when they promoted the Xbow here in Wisconsin. Put it toward the WBH which has worked tirelessly to promote our sport in this state and do everything to keep them in check. Thank you mike Brust!!!!!!

From: Kevin Dill
07-Feb-19
States do not care about the sport, the challenge, the future of bowhunting or how I feel about the sport. They are in the business of managing game populations, hunters....and definitely making money for the state. I'm okay with that too...at least to a reasonable extent. If the crossbow is an effective management tool (as in a net positive) for the state, it likely isn't going anywhere just based on emotions, dislikes, and arguments about the future of bowhunting. The only thing which will cause states to reevaluate the use of crossbows....or keep them out of seasons altogether....is enough evidence that crossbows are somehow a negative to the STATE'S interests. If and when it becomes apparent that a state will be helping its wildlife and its future hunting seasons (not to mention monetary interests) by limiting or eliminating crossbows, the state will be more likely to take action. Maybe the Wisconsin situation is a sign the ice is cracking. Maybe not.

07-Feb-19
Kevin Dill ---- someone with some common sense, ,,,,,,

07-Feb-19
Kevin x 3. I hope it’s the former though.

From: Jake
07-Feb-19
Kevin X4

From: elk yinzer
07-Feb-19
This is great. Hopefully PA can follow and try to stuff them back into Pandora's box.

From: Jake
07-Feb-19
I am to the point of doing anything that is logically needed to save archery as a sport even if we have to go all the way back to just stick and string.

From: Kevin Dill
07-Feb-19
Jake, I don't think the sport of archery is threatened. There will always be guys who value the challenges of shooting a hand-drawn (and held) vertical bow. The sport of bowhunting is another thing entirely, as we watch ourselves continue to invent and use almost anything which helps improve the odds of a kill. I'm preaching to the choir when I say bowhunting....as seasons were originally conceived....was always supposed to be very challenging and difficult. It's the primary reason for very long archery seasons, and for the chance to hunt many animals during their vulnerable breeding seasons. Weapons of greater ease and success would put more hunters afield for longer periods, and would contribute to additional kills. That's not a problem until it becomes a problem. So long as game populations and bank accounts stay healthy, any state has little reason to limit crossbows. But given the shifting dynamics of hunting and all it encompasses, I don't think it's unreasonable to believe the overwhelming incorporation of technology (like the Ravin device, or the AirBow) could produce consequences unforeseen, and who really knows where it leads?

07-Feb-19
I agree with Kevin Dill...when one considers only whitetail deer in areas where they are plentiful and with CWD concerns.

In other areas, (such as Montana where scoped crossbows are not yet legal for all) , even whitetail deer..... as well as elk, mule deer, antelope, moose, cougar, turkeys, sheep, and goats are ALREADY on a limited draw or quota system. In Wisconsin, bear and turkey are on a limited drawing as well as antlerless deer tags in many regions. Point creep is real in these instances. More technology simply means more point creep, less opportunity. We do not need to wait to see where this is leading, the path is clear,.... especially when one considers non midwestern whitetail deer.

Where scoped crossbows are legal for all, real bow hunting is in serious decline, while crossbow hunting is increasing.

From: 12yards
07-Feb-19
If compounds are so damn easy to use then why do we need crossbows? No need to make it even easier right? Funny, the success rate for bowhunters in MN hasn't changed in over 20 years. Funny how all that let-off and mechanical releases haven't really increased success all that much. Hmmmmm! Maybe it isn't all that much of an advantage and still isn't all that easy.

From: Jake
07-Feb-19
12 yards and why do able bodied men shoot compounds when they could shoot stick bows. Seriously!!

From: happygolucky
07-Feb-19
In Wisconsin, bear and turkey are on a limited drawing as well as antlerless deer tags in many regions. Point creep is real in these instances

That statement above is 100% irrelevant to xbows. The majority of bears and turkeys in WI are killed with guns. Any weapon can be used in those seasons. The limited antlerless tags are based on population models in each county and has nothing to do with weapons. Some counties (farmland) give out antlerless tags like candy.

From: happygolucky
07-Feb-19
If there are mods anymore, can one of them please go to the WI board and stop the embarrassment happening in the WHERE ARE THE LADIES thread. What is happening in there with all the childish name calling, etc, is an embarrassment to WI, Bowsite, and all hunters. That same is true in the other current xbow threads on the WI boards. A couple adults on that board are worse than most children. I would never let anyone under 21 look at a thread on the WI board.

From: 12yards
07-Feb-19
Because it takes an able bodied human to use a compound.

From: stagetek
07-Feb-19
Kevin, I agree completely with your explanation about using them as a game managing tool. But, that is not what happened in WI. Game management had nothing to do with it. The simple reason was, our governor at the time needed the NRA's endorsement for his bid for the Presidency. The NRA was actively promoting x-guns in the state, in order to get their endorsement, he signed the bill allowing their use. The governor got what he wanted. The NRA got what they wanted. And, we've got x-guns.

07-Feb-19
Not irrelevent in Wisconsin,..... a certain percentage of bears and turkeys were, and are, killed with hand drawn bows. If fewer hunters use hand drawn bows, and instead pick up the more lethal scoped crossbows as their form of archery, non gun kills will increase. Both bear and turkeys are very vulnerable to the scoped crossbow when compared to hand drawn bows. Baiting a bear to 45 yards, or picking off a turkey in a farm field at 45 yards with a modern day scoped crossbow is far easier than getting either animals to closer ranges and being killed with a hand drawn bow. Far, far easier.

From: South Farm
07-Feb-19
Wisconsin...land of Crossbows and Corn-piles!

From: oldhunter
07-Feb-19
happygolucky - "If there are mods anymore, can one of them please go to the WI board and stop the embarrassment happening in the WHERE ARE THE LADIES thread.

Keep in mind that the sarcastic posts by RJN and Captmike are the two posters that turned a legitimate thread into what it became.

From: Kevin Dill
07-Feb-19
stagetek, I'm reading you 100% on those thoughts. My comment about crossbows being part of the management strategy refers to what happens after they're in the henhouse. They are basically never introduced as something necessary for wildlife management, but once they get into use they invariably overtake vertical bows and become even more of a management tool (weapon) than typical bows. I often compare it to the introduction of an invasive species which seemed like a great and harmless idea until they overran their area and forever altered the ecology there.

.

And for anyone riled up: I don't hate crossbows and I don't hate their users in any way. I simply think they're a weapon which (TODAY) compares more closely with a firearm than a hand-drawn bow. Somebody a while back said it was like bringing a motorcycle to a horse race....pretty good analogy.

From: Jake
07-Feb-19
Kevin I totally agree. Crossbows are a run away freight train with technology as its engine. The only sensible solution that I have heard is to ban scopes on them. That makes sense. That would end the speed at all costs mentality and bring them back to close range weapons. The next would be to restrict them back to disabled and over 65 group. I think that that one would be a tough one to do being that its is out already and people have a investment in it.

From: Ambush
07-Feb-19
This could be one of those rare times when you should “...shoot the messenger” !

From: Jake
07-Feb-19
Ambush, this should be good. What is your solution to the problem.

From: Ambush
07-Feb-19
Why would I get into a pissing match when the only result would be wet ankles for me and wet hair for you.

From: TrapperKayak
07-Feb-19
The only time xbows should be allowed is DURING ANY GUN SEASON, in any state. No separate season, not in conjunction with any other type of bow, they are pretty much just a gun that shoots a projectile that is not powered by a powder charge. All other things considered, they are a gun. They should only be allowed during open GUN SEASONS, PERIOD.

From: JTV
07-Feb-19
agreed ^^ .... we used to have it that way here, from gun season on .... then the crossbow lobby flexed their muscles and the DNR caved ...

From: Jake
07-Feb-19
Ambush very colorful answer. LOl The rest are just greed as usual.

07-Feb-19
Trapper +many! Now crossgun jake will come along and say compounds don't belong in a bow season either. But will still argue that crossguns do!!

From: Jake
07-Feb-19
No Elk we all belong in the woods. It is just the greedy ones that want it the way they do it and don't do it by them. How does it go again. An able bodied man should not be able to shoot a crossbow. But then an able bodied man has a choice of shooting a compound or stick bow and most these days choose compound. One, why do they get a choice and Two why do most choose the easier one and crossbows hunters don't get that choice either. Still comes up greed.

From: TrapperKayak
07-Feb-19
Hell Elk E, sporting goods stores I have been in for the last few years barely have any compound selection at all. Just crossbows galore. Compounds are on the downswing and the reason is the fools keep passing legislation allowing them during their own and/or during bow seasons. 20 years from now, compounds will be considered what stick bows are now by most...way too difficult to even bother with.

From: TrapperKayak
07-Feb-19
Just to be clear, I have no problem with crossbows, during open gun seasons. I have a problem with them being allowed during bow seasons, or having a separate season of their own. They are guns IMO.

07-Feb-19
I've intentionally stayed off the Crossbow threads on the Wisconsin site and I just looked and saw that the WHERE ARE ALL THE LADIES thread is gone. I don't know what was being said on that thread but it looks like happygolucky got his wish...

I'm too busy crunching elk drawing stats for several states to get involved in stupid arguments...

07-Feb-19
The demand creates the market. Nobody to blame but the hunting community that buys or embraces the use of modern scoped crossbows. It is becoming quite clear most scoped crossbows users are former bow hunters, likely former compound bow hunters. I do not blame the manufacturers for catering to the markets, that is simply good business.

From: Jake
07-Feb-19
Hell Elk E, sporting goods stores I have been in for the last few years barely have any compound selection at all. Just crossbows galore. Compounds are on the downswing and the reason is the fools keep passing legislation allowing them during their own and/or during bow seasons. 20 years from now, compounds will be considered what stick bows are now by most...way too difficult to even bother with. Trap I agree. This all happened before. When compounds came out they were a marvel to most people. Hunter numbers swelled and the stick bow was left in the dust. Now it is the crossbow and compound numbers a dwindling. It would be great if we all could enjoy the sport togerther. MONEY and GREED is the problem. Crossbows are evolving at an alarming rate. That is why I think that Myke's idea of banning scopes on them would curb the technology boom and make them only close range weapons again. Some sort of limit has to be imposed. Like it was said manufacturer are only giving buyers what they want. States have to intervene

From: TrapperKayak
07-Feb-19
Missouribreaks, I agree to a point, but I think it had to start with supply. Someone thought they could make some dough and decided to build a modern crossbow, developed some, and put them on the market. They were seen, tried, and liked, and those folks persuaded the lawmakers to allow them. Laws allowed them, demand increased, more were bought, and more were supplied. I think it was because supply was there first, who knows. The idea caught on fast, because they are EASY to KILL WITH. Lawmakers caved to demand, I agree. Gives new meaning to the term "MAN CAVE". As long as we have hunters, I'm okay with it. We need to build the ranks, and stop the infighting, and the way to stop infighting is NOT tot CAVE to STUPIDITY, which allowing crossbows during bow seasons is: STUPID.

07-Feb-19
Jake, "Some sort of limit has to be imposed". Yes I agree, the limit has been set as hand drawn and hand held.

How much more simple could it possibly be?

From: TrapperKayak
07-Feb-19
LOOK, WE ALL HUNT RIGHT? A little common sense is necessary here. We need to learn to categorize our weapons, and enact seasons accordingly. I think lawmakers should be required to determine seasons based on science of weapon efficiency more than they already do. And fairness to those who choose more primitive weaponry. It is not that difficult to realize that when harvest potential for a certain species becomes easier, then that is the time when the seasons with more difficult weapons should be open. The 'easy' weapons (guns and xguns) should be allowed during the periods outside the rut, and the stickbows and cps during the rut periods. Take harvest stats, monitor herd numbers, etc. We have the technology to do that more effectively now. This should be easy, but it IS based on greed, money, and therefore, people are bitching amongst each other, infighting in hunter ranks is occurring, and the sport is suffering - it is like the Democratic party fer crying out loud - it is SELF DESTRUCTING.

From: Jake
07-Feb-19
Elk that is where we disagree. Compounds are also taking advantage of the technology. Look at the improvements since they started. At the beginning they were hand drawn with 50% let-off and plenty of hand shock stamdard pins and heavier. Now they are mechanically drawn by the wrist, 95% let-off, no hand shock and elaborate sights. How has the stick bow changed. Not at all. Don't hide behind the stick bow. If you want to be fair stick bows should have the rut.

07-Feb-19
I agree Trapper. I do however think there is a shared resposibility. Hunters, and even the P&Y club have endorsed many advancements in the "let off" of compound bows. It does not take any forward thinking by a manufacturer to see the general hunting community is willing to give up "challenge and practice" for an easier way to the kill. In the manufacturer's minds, the scoped crossbow was the next step in evolution from the 90% let off compound bow, already shot with a trigger. History had shown the majority of hunters will embrace the easier way. In my mind, the precedent was set by the acceptance of the compound bow, and every subsequent evolution in their engineering.

Having said that, the compound bow is still hand drawn to an extent, and that is a major difference.

I simply do not like finger pointing when the general hunting community has a clear record of supporting technology to shorten their efforts to a kill. I will stay with my selfbow and cedars.

07-Feb-19
There you go again! If your choice of a crossbow cant be used during an archery season you don't want anyone shooting a compound either! Unbelievable.

A compound is archery equipment, been an accepted part of our archery season for what 50 + years.

Take up archery. I dont even know personally any 95% let off bow. You complain compounds are so advanced but out the other side of your mouth you say their hard to find these days!

From: happygolucky
07-Feb-19
Take harvest stats, monitor herd numbers, etc.

When you do that with the 4 year period xbows have been allowed in WI, the total archery plus xbow kills combined is lower than in the 4 years prior to xbows being allowed (archery only). Yes, there surely are some variables that led to this but those numbers are ammo for the xbow people. The overall combined kills (all weapons) remain very static going back well before xbows. What is happening is that more gun hunters are moving into the xbow ranks and the numbers are simply sliding around. That same was basically true in MI after they were allowed there.

WI has a separate xbow season. That is not going to change. The money is already in the system. The NRA made sure of that. What is happening now is that WI is simply looking at a way to appease the PO'ed bowhunters and gun hunters. They are doing this trying to save 5-7k bucks for the gun hunters. Wisconsin Outdoor News reported an estimate on the number of bucks that would be saved with each of the 7 proposals.

I still believe that whatever option is chosen, and it may not be one of the 7, the net impact on the xbow hunters will be small. WI can then state they took the 2 year trial period (which ended up being 4 years) and made a change. They will pat each other on the back and after people realize how little impact the change actually has, we'll be back to where we are now.

From: Jake
07-Feb-19
Well I'm sorry Elk. I know that you expect no objection on here. The truth sometimes hurts. Stick bows are the true sport. Your mechanical releases changed your compounds forever. I remember shooting fingers and it took some doing to develop that release and a lot of arrow changing to silence that bow the arrow has when leaving your fingers. Maybe that is the problem. Compounds had little competition from the stick bow group and all was good for 50 Years and then came the competition on you. I understand your selfishness and greed. It is ok.

07-Feb-19

From: RJN
07-Feb-19
Jake- common sense is something you dont have. Xguns is NOT archery. Xguns should not be legal during the archer season. My only compromise would be late season only along with gun season. Should really only be for the disabled and 65 + yr old hunters.

07-Feb-19
Jake, your an advocate of crossbows correct? Then why do you run down compound bow use during an archery season? You should spend your time explaining why xguns should be allowed on their OWN MERIT!

Jake I can tell your school is closed today same as my kids is.

From: SaltyB
07-Feb-19
Please dont lump all Wisconsinites into Jake's group. Most of us have good common sense and would like to see bows allowed during the archery season. NOT xguns. The difference is you have to DRAW a bow. Compound or not, it's not ready to shoot till I pull it back.

As for the WI forums, I'm on Bowsite multiple times per day. I never go to the WI forum anymore. Not to thrilled about how we are represented there.

From: Jake
07-Feb-19
No Elk I was force to shoot a crossbow or nothing. The hypocrisy of it all draws me to it. I have went through the stages stick bow, compound bow and now crossbow. I have found that compound shooters love to just like the stick bow shooters but your in reality far from it. The crossbow is doing exactly what compounds did to the stick bow shooters. I would love to know what percent the stick bow shooter would have compared to the compound shooters. Believe me it would be I am betting a 10/90 in favor of the compounds. You guys are not all that in fact and that is why I am here. You never have anyone point it out to you. If I had my hands I would be shooting compound with fingers. My muscles could not stand the stick bow any more. But is it not great that I have a choice. You just tell the crossbower to get out. And don't give me this able bodied bullshit either. There are plenty of able bodied compounders out there and they CHOOSE to shoot the compound not the stick bow. What they get a choice? Should they not be forced into the stick bow group because they are able bodied. Nice to have choices is it not. I don't hate compounds but I dislike the compounders elite attitude. You guys do your best to shut opinions other than yours out. Rant over.

From: RutnStrut
07-Feb-19
Jake since it's so easy according to you. You must have been one of the highest ranked shooters in the world with a compound?

From: TrapperKayak
07-Feb-19
"What is happening is that more gun hunters are moving into the xbow ranks and the numbers are simply sliding around. That same was basically true in MI after they were allowed there." I'm okay with that. As long as the seasons are the same for them both - to me xguns are guns and I have no problem with them if used during gun seasons. If gunners are turning to xguns, I see no problem there. They both have limitations, and both have advantages. What I see these days, at least where poaching does not run wild, is that deer numbers are almost out of control. Deer are everywhere in CNY and hunter numbers are not what they used to be in the 70s and 80s. There are more bow hunters, and now that xguns are allowed and taking the place of compound hunters, I think they should be placed in with gun seasons only and let bow hunters have their separate seasons. That might balance things our some. Basically, I see very little impact to deer numbers here from hunting though. Another significant impact is automobile mortalities, and coyote predation. Coyotes are everywhere around my area. On our acreage (9 ac) every night.

From: Ambush
07-Feb-19
Obviously WI is home to too many crossbows and dairy cows. Must be the dairy contributing to the severe yeast infections causing some to be extremely irritable about the crossbows.

A few folks should just go back to the state forum and duke it out till it's settled. Then announce the winner here.

From: Jake
07-Feb-19
Rut I was just average. I was good at hunting but you let your bow talk right. I care less about target shooting.

From: Jake
07-Feb-19
Trapper no thanks. I don't want the gun season. I don't gun hunt any more and I like the solitude. Bang, bang is not solitude. Nice of you to offer that to crossbowers. Very kind indeed.

07-Feb-19
Jake are you implying your somewhat handicapped? I mean no disrespect with that question. If so Wisconsin already had a provision in place crossbow use for someone with a disability.

Thanks for keeping this dialogue civil, I saw you in action on our home forum.

I still dont understand your argument.

Is there no possible way of advocating your beloved xbow on its own merits? Didn't think so.

Need to agree to disagree on this one but I certainty hope Wisconsins xbow season is cut down to size.

From: GF
07-Feb-19
“Funny, the success rate for bowhunters in MN hasn't changed in over 20 years. Funny how all that let-off and mechanical releases haven't really increased success all that much. Hmmmmm! ”

Are you comparing the RATE or the harvest total?

From: TrapperKayak
07-Feb-19
I suspect Wisconsin has even more deer than NY, so I am wondering why the over-concern about xgun takeover?

From: Drop Tine
07-Feb-19
I will reiterate;

The one thing as an archer in Wi. I worry about is we generally have a prehunt population of 1.2M to 1.5M deer. The number of hunters is in decline and well as the overall harvest in the state all weapons combined.

The deer still need to be managed. Depending on the area of the state you look at the Northern Forested area is managed to 15 deer per square mile. While in the Southern Farmland area it can go to 25 PSM.

It takes a substantial harvest to reach those management goals. The traditional 9 day gun season has been that driver. But with the declining participation and harvest we have gone from 9 gun hunting days to 40+ gun hunting days and the harvest is still in decline.

So far we have kept guns out of the rut. But we are running out of days and I’m quite sure to meet management goals there will be more days added for the gun hunters. Where in the calendar is an issue that will come up.

The crossbow season started in 2014. The years of 2011 - 2013 bowhunters killed 44,000, 45,000, and 41,000 Bucks. The crossbow seasons leading up to the 2018/19 crossbow hunters killed 38,000 Bucks.

With the bowhunters there was no concern with the high buck kills in the years 2011 - 2013 numbers yet to be reached by crossbow hunters and suddenly there is an issue.

By pushing crossbows out and shortening the season we will surely be sharing the woods with more gun hunting days and having to wear blaze orange while doing so.

I’ve been an archer since 1963 when my dad put a bow in my hand. I’ve seen the compound development and encroach into the bow season. I’ve seen the gun season expand from 9 to over 40 and I predict it will expand again if we take days away from the crossbow hunters.

The herd still needs to be managed and the DNR needs license money.

From: Ambush
07-Feb-19
I thought the entire deer population was going to be wiped out by CWD in a couple years?!?

From: longspeak74
07-Feb-19
"Not to thrilled about how we are represented there" Well said and you're not alone...

From: APauls
07-Feb-19
I’m pretty sure this whole thread and the Wisconsin forums themselves is just a massive ploy by Wisconsin locals to make the rest of the world fear their lunacy and drop out of their big game tags.

07-Feb-19
Your on to us APauls

From: RJN
07-Feb-19
DT- (xgun supporter) it's not about the total #s. Its about a completely different superior weapon being used during the archery season. In just 4 years xguns have surpassed the rate of success of gun and bow buck harvest. What does that tell you? Common sense says changes need to be made.

From: Drop Tine
07-Feb-19
Overall harvest decline with all weapons combined suggests otherwise.

You want gun season in the rut keep pushing. I surely don’t. But what’s stopping it. Gun season has expanded from 9 days to 40+ days already.

From: marktm250
07-Feb-19
As mentioned previously, states are going to do what they deem is in their best interest which comes down to revenue and herd management. Type of weapon is a secondary consideration. Consider the following:

How many gun hunters are there versus bow hunters? The gun hunters usually get priority because of their larger economic impact.

Who is mainly buying xbows? Gun hunters? Is so, then why would the state care since they sold an extra archery tag? Does the state really care WHEN and HOW the harvest is made if the herd is healthy and stable.

Success is a good marketing tool (Joe got a buck this year so I will stick with it for at least another year). Gun hunters hunting with xbows increases probability of success. This cannot be overlooked when overall hunter numbers are trending downward.

From: RJN
07-Feb-19
DT- Your support for xguns is getting old. Your assumption of more days of gun season to justify you wanting your family to continue to use xguns is ridiculous. Put a bow in their hands and practice. They will appreciate the archery season and harvest so much more than taking the easy way of using a xgun. A shoulder fired weapon should be used in one season, gun season.

From: happygolucky
07-Feb-19
Obviously WI is home to too many crossbows and dairy cows. Must be the dairy contributing to the severe yeast infections causing some to be extremely irritable about the crossbows.

It is definitely Crossbow Derangement Syndrome. So many in WI suffer from it. I believe many people who frequent the WI board lose sleep over xbows having their own season.

To all those not familiar with the WI board. Read this thread and then add in lots of name calling and insults spread all around and that is it.

From: Screwball
07-Feb-19
When looking at the number of kills for those years. Without the crossbow season, would the archery hunter numbers have been higher during the higher kill years, since the crossbow season didn't exist for them to switch weapons. And thus higher harvest numbers reflected. Also once the hunters began the switch from archery to crossbow the numbers would thus reflect that continuing increase, no? As well as possible higher or lower herd numbers for those years?

From: Drop Tine
07-Feb-19
RJN

My whole family shoots a vertical bow. Even my wife. But because of her ailment she chooses to hunt with a crossbow to ethically take game.

Your whole argument is based off of one stat. “Success Rate” that’s like trying to support 10lbs of crap with a 1lb test string. It’s not supported.

Crossbow hunters killed 38,000 bucks last season and there is a issue. In the 3 archery seasons before the crossbow season was established bowhunters in 2011 - 2013 killed 44,000, 45,000, and 41,000 Bucks.

Why were there no red flags then? Why didn’t bow hunters say we need to relook at “our” season?

It’s also relevant to say that the protocol has already started with gun hunting days expanding. We have gone from 9 days of gun hunting to 42 days. Do you really think it’s going to stop?

From: RJN
07-Feb-19
Happy- ( xgun supporter) this is BOWSITE. Are you surprised the majority on this site is sick and tired of you guys backing xguns? Xguns threaten the archery season, now is a crucial time to put an end to it.

From: RutnStrut
07-Feb-19
" The crossbow seasons leading up to the 2018/19 crossbow hunters killed 38,000 Bucks."

Every time you bring up these numbers you conveniently leave out how less crossbow hunters are shooting those numbers. So it PROVES it's a superior weapon. If it didn't offer an advantage I doubt you would be advocating for it for the reason you are.

From: Drop Tine
07-Feb-19
BUT, in 2011 - 2013 bowhunters killed 44,000, 45,000, and 41,000 Bucks and there was no concern.

Crossbow hunters killed 38,000 and the sky is falling.

The overall harvest all weapons combined is declining as well as hunter numbers in WI. If we were setting records and being a detriment to the herd I would support it. But just because Crossbow hunters shot more than bowhunters is not an emergency.

I would much rather share the woods with a crossbow hunter than put up with more gun hunting days.

I’ll also again ask you about the kids? Your answer that they can stay home till they are able to pull a bow back is unacceptable. Throwing them into the late season is also unacceptable. Many kids have already had a taste and now you want to rip it away from them.

Pure selfishness......

Maybe that’s why out of 250,000 bowhunters less than 2,500 of them belong to the state organization. On top of that how many would even be member if they weren’t forced to belong because they want to shoot a league and they REQUIRE everyone to be a member of the state org. to shoot.

You have Ron Kulas a mouth piece against crossbows but buys his father one so he could continue hunting.

Kaz, on the NRB board and the leading mouth piece against has a archery pro shop and sells crossbows. Profits from the crossbow hunters then works to restrict opportunities. What hypocrites they are.

From: Screwball
07-Feb-19
Rutnstrut, exactly,

From: 12yards
07-Feb-19
GF, success rate.

https://files.dnr.state.mn.us/wildlife/deer/reports/harvest/deerharvest_2017.pdf

Page 3.

From: RutnStrut
07-Feb-19
"I’ll also again ask you about the kids? Your answer that they can stay home till they are able to pull a bow back is unacceptable. Throwing them into the late season is also unacceptable."

I have said before that crossbows for kids up to 16 wouldn't be terrible. But yes I am of the opinion that if they have to wait a bit it won't hurt them. Setting goals and attaining them as opposed to instant gratification. Yeah that would be horrible...

07-Feb-19
Interesting thread, what has been accomplished?

From: Boone
07-Feb-19
Jake 95 percent let off??? I almost believed some of your other lines until I read this come on dude. You find one bow manufacturer that has 95 percent let off and I will buy you a new crossbow.

From: Screwball
07-Feb-19
99% let off: concept bows. Sorry to post this can I get the crossbow? LOL

From: Tonybear61
07-Feb-19
Best thing WI ever did, OK to crossbows but you have a different lisc. so we can track harvest rates. Now can demonstrate what all the hand held, released archers have been claiming for years. Its a superior weapon, will change structure of the harvest and ultimately the archery season if put there..

No need for pushing them on the kids either. In my state all you need is 30# (yes you can kill big game with it, via proper tuning, broadhead selection and taking good shots).

07-Feb-19
Soooo, what have we solved with this thread?

From: GF
07-Feb-19
Beats the hell out of me!

But honestly, I’m not sure I get what the problem is… It almost sounds as if the major complaint is that the rut is getting too crowded, and bow hunters think that they somehow should have that all to themselves, even though in an awful lot of states, the prime days of rut are given over to Riflemen anyway.

JMO, which weapons are allowed during rut is a deer density management decision; which weapons are permitted and for how many days each is a HUNTER density management decision.

I can’t imagine that there are a lot of bow hunters who would be happy to have the rut as an Archery-only proposition if the firearms hunters had been out there getting after it for a month and a half before November rolled in…

Archery seasons do need to be timed to allow a Bowhunter COMPARABLE odds of success vis-a-vis a rifle hunter, but filling A tag is as far as that goes. The likely size of the rack should have nothing to do with it.

If what is REALLY important to a given Hunter is getting a magazine-quality trophy out of the deal, then he can choose his season accordingly.

Archery seasons should by all rights (IMHO) be structured to MINIMIZE participation, short of driving the success rates off the bottom of the chart. IOW, it shouldn’t be an exercise in futility, provided you’re willing to treat your either-sex tag as EITHER sex.

If antlers are what matter to you, hunt the rut. If BOWHUNTING is what matters to you, then go hunt hard and take whatever animal is offered. Archery Seasons need to be preserved for the enjoyment of those for whom the method is more important than the outcome. And if all you’re interested in is an easier way to get your name in a Book...

Shove off.

From: Ambush
08-Feb-19
"Soooo, what have we solved with this thread?"

Patience, patience. I think about seven or eight more posts should have the whole thing wrapped up and concluded once and for all.

From: XMan
08-Feb-19
Who didn’t see this coming? crossbow technology has advanced so much in the last ten years, what once was cumbersome, heavy, and only effective at typical compound distances has now grown to 80 yard shots with near perfect accuracy. The new Ravin has accuracy comparable to most slug shotguns ??

From: Jake
08-Feb-19
Xman I agree. It has gotten out of hand. I am disabled and have to shoot crossbow but in the last few years the crossbow has advanced a lot. That is why Myke and I agree to have a law banning use of a scope for hunting crossbows. That would eliminate speed. It would make a crossbow a close up hunting bow again.

From: Jake
08-Feb-19
Boone brought up that I mentioned that 95% let-off is incorrect for compounds. MY apologies. I got that from other posts and thought it to be correct. Could someone tell me the latest let-off percentage for compounds.

From: Catscratch
08-Feb-19
"Soooo, what have we solved with this thread?"

The same thing that gets solved in each of these threads.

There are three groups arguing here so things get cluttered and off task: 1 - Pope and Young group. 2 - Deer density and management group. 3 - Keep em out of the rut group.

1. The most unfortunate group, as they are arguing something that is completely irrelevant and they seem to be the most emotional group on the topic. I only say irrelevant because lawmakers seem to have zero interest in what Pope and Young said, and since the definition of a bow (or what is archery is) is 100% in the hands of the lawmakers of the state you hunt in it only matters what the law says a bow is. Anything else is just personal. Which is fine for everyone to make that personal choice... the lawmakers just don't care.

2. Very little data on how crossbows affect deer densities except in the states like WI that has kept data. In WI's case harvest numbers did not increase and density has not gone down.

3. This is different than #2 because the only reason to care about the rut is for bucks. A highly efficient weapon in the rut will change the age structure of the herd and eventually lead to less trophy class buck opportunities. This will have zero effect on herd densities though and only affects trophy hunters.

I for one care mostly about #3. I like to hunt bucks, I pass does and small bucks a lot, I like antlers! I couldn't care less what someone else hunts with as it has no affect on the age structure and big bucks become more rare.

I think corn piles and leasing is far more damaging to our big buck populations than a crossbow will ever be. That won't be a popular opinion because most partake in one or both of those. I feel that all archery equipment should be shot with fingers. The single thing that affects accuracy and practice time the most isn't a scope or training wheels... it's the release. Do away with mechanical releases and I don't care what your sites are or if it's should fired or vertical. That would be the great equalizer that everyone seems to want.

From: Jake
08-Feb-19
Catscratch +1 I would add no scope on crossbows.

From: happygolucky
08-Feb-19
Happy- ( xgun supporter) this is BOWSITE. Are you surprised the majority on this site is sick and tired of you guys backing xguns? Xguns threaten the archery season, now is a crucial time to put an end to it.

Sorry RJN, I am not an xbow supporter. I have been very clear on that for years. I shoot a compound. That still means I am not a real bowhunter according to many. I just don't hate people who shoot xbows like you do and that makes you and others have to categorize me as being pro-xbow. I have looked at the stats in MI, WI, and other states and have not seen the negative impacts people said would happen because I see overall kill rates staying flat. Therefore, I have simply chosen to be content with bowhunting and not get my undies in a bundle like you do all the time. I don't feel the same need you do to call xbow hunters childish names and belittle them based on their weapon(s) of choice. It is a shame these tools are living rent free between so many people's ears.

Just like on the WI board, this thread will get to over 400 posts. The same crap will be said over and over and over. As more WI folks make their way here, the name calling should get good and entertaining. Crossbow Derangement Syndrome.

From: RJN
08-Feb-19
Happy- If your not against xguns for all then you are for them. Also your wrong, I have not called xgunners names, but I do call able bodied hunters lazy who choose xguns. You see overall kill rates flat in Mi would mean that in Wi xguns will have the highest success rate for bucks every yr. Do you not see a problem with that? When the Airbow gains traction into the archery season you will support that as well? If not,why? Everyone should be able to choose their weapon to hunt with right? It ridiculous, this is the time to limit xguns and secure the future of archery in Wi.

From: Jake
08-Feb-19
RJN I agree with your logic that able bodied men should not shoot a crossbow in the same sense that able bodied men should not shoot a compound. Of course unless they are lazy.

From: happygolucky
08-Feb-19
Happy- If your not against xguns for all then you are for them.

Yep, that is how you and others have categorized me. Your choice. I choose to look at the actual stats and what really has occurred. If those numbers change for the worse, I will rethink my position then. Until then, bowhunting is alive and well in WI and I am choosing to cherish my times in the woods versus losing sleep over what weapon my neighbor might be using. With xbows being in a separate season, the Legislature can make changes and surely will to preserve our hunting.

When the Airbow gains traction into the archery season you will support that as well?

The answer is no. But once again, to be clear, I do not support xbows for all. Please try to comprehend that. I do not think they should have a season running concurrently with the archery season. I have said this many times. I just don't hate people who shoot them and don't believe they have been the detriment people have been worried about. Now, is that detriment still to come? Maybe, and as I said, I reserve the right to change my opinion. My opinion is not based on emotions. It is based on actual stats.

I have also said many times that I think MI did it right by not allowing xbows in their late season in the UP. Heck, they are not even allowed in the smoke pole season in the UP. They are a superior weapon for when deer yard up. They are superior in the late season in the cold north where it is harder to draw a vertical bow. They are easily used in heated condos too. MI did that well.

From: KX500
08-Feb-19
As one poster has commented, “Archery Seasons needs to be preserved for the enjoyment of those for whom the method is more important than the outcome”.

I would be curious as to which state has this view?

Every state has game that has to be managed and staff & operations that have to be funded.

I’m afraid at the state level, hunting is all about the money.

Archery season has to be preserved because permit sales are a big part of funding DNR staff and operations.

Many of us would like it to mean more than that. But governments run on money and almost none care about the game we pursue or the means we use to harvest them.

And for those who really don’t like crossbows, I get that advertisements like the one from Ravin do add fuel to the fire, but we do all realize that is marketing, right? Calling a crossbow a gun doesn’t make it one. You can put the wrong label on anything, but that doesn’t change what it is.

I can’t find a definition of crossbow that doesn’t use the term ‘bow’. I can’t find a definition of crossbow bolt that doesn’t use the term ‘arrow’.

How many times have we seen archers talk about 100 yard shots with their compound bows? These threads act like that doesn’t happen, when we all know it does. I’ve read them here on Bowsite, just like the rest of you have. I’ve watched the hunting videos, just like many of you have.

I think we also understand that bows operate on the stored energy from the limbs, not from burning gun powder as in a gun.

This is kind of a big difference as is the velocity of each as well as the associated energy.

Another thing you can’t change is the characteristics of an arrow in flight. An arrow released from a crossbow has no magical properties and does not behave like a bullet or become one.

A 100 yard shot is a very bad idea for me, since I have little interest in that sort of thing and have never attempted it even on paper. But where many of us hunt, most all of our shots (guns included) are 60 yards or under. 100 yard capability isn’t something I would have much use for.

But if you can do it (with compound or crossbow), who am I to say you are wrong? It could mean you are just better than me.

Even with a crossbow, I’m pretty sure 100 yard shots are not going to be day #1 stuff. There may be a difference between possible and common (kind of like with a compound). From the statement that I did the ‘cut & paste’ thing on, it is very clear why for many of you, crossbows can’t be defined as archery. Yes of course crossbows have some characteristics of a gun. But again, arrows are being released from strings attached to limbs. Yes, yes, Pope & Young says crossbows aren’t archery so that must be right.

But come on, we all know a crossbow isn’t a gun, either. And no matter how hard you, P&Y or Ravin try, you can’t make it one.

Oh I guess if you repeat it enough, you will get some of the uneducated or those that just don’t care one way or the other to believe it. But if you do it’ll have been through deception, and is that really how you want to get there? Or maybe it is just win at all costs.

And for the record, I am pro-hunting. Pursue the game you choose with whatever legal method you choose. Many hunters enjoy things that I don't & vice versa.

No matter what group you become a member of, someone is going to hate you and call you derogatory names - PETA if nobody else.

From: Live2hunt
08-Feb-19
Happy, that is the big issue. They ran it concurrent with the Archery season. Kind of like saying they are one in the same and they are not. I have said it many times before on the WI site that it is a big slap in the face to all of us who chose to hunt with a bow and make the effort required to proficiently hunt with one. This Xgun full inclusion thing they did just through many years of dedication out the door. That's infuriating!

08-Feb-19
I think it is obvious there are many on this forum who use, enable and support crossbows in their camps and lives. Scoped crossbows sure seem to get a lot of support and discussion by users.... on a forum dedicated to bow hunting. Do they somehow believe they are still bow hunters? Why else would they be here?

From: South Farm
08-Feb-19
"Soooo, what have we solved with this thread?"

What have we solved with ANY topics brought up here? It's not about saving the world; it's for ENTERTAINMENT while you stare out the window at work;)

08-Feb-19
I think there are many here who secretly use and support scoped crossbows....all the while pretending to be bow hunters. I would hope anyone hunting with a scoped crossbow realizes they are not bow and arrow hunters, are not bow and arrow hunting, and are not killing animals with a bow and arrow. Bow and arrow hunter numbers are declining, scoped crossbow hunters are on the increase.

From: happygolucky
08-Feb-19
Happy, that is the big issue. They ran it concurrent with the Archery season.

I agree 100%. But, what could really be done when the public voted against xbows multiple times yet the Legislature voted 96-0 in favor of them for all? The governor then signed it into law. That was the slap in the face. Walker obviously chose $$$ over the Sportsmen for Walker campaign that was run at his initial election. The powers-of-being took the NRA's money and didn't care about what the general public wanted.

At least WI has a separate season that can be adjusted. Kudos again to WBH and SCI who made that happen. The 2 year trial went 4 years but something is going to happen. It won't be much I've guessed but it will appease some people for the short term.

From: Jake
08-Feb-19
Missouri hope is a great thing. I hope that your dreams come true. But as the stick bow people hope that compounder did not think that they were bowhunting it is now compounder that are hoping that crossbow hunters are suppose to something other than a bow hunter. It is just differing opinion and change. Change is hard.

From: KX500
08-Feb-19
If I ran a forum, I would think that it would be good to have it appeal to as many people as possible. I've never felt that I had to have all of the same opinions as everybody else in a forum in order to enjoy that forum. For me, Bowsite has always been about hunting, foremost. If I hunted with a compound bow for 20 plus years and then decided to change to a crossbow.......well really, who cares? If someone were to say, well you used to be a bowhunter but now you aren't....well really, who cares? Is that supposed to have some effect on a person?

You don't need much experience on Bowsite to understand the overall stance here about crossbows. But that doesn't make the site worthless to guys who like crossbows, either. There is a lot of valuable information here for hunters, archers, bowhunters, etc.

I've never really cared for 'yes' men or the men who have to keep them around. If you have an opinion on something, be ready to explain & defend. If you have to resort to name calling, emotional rants and deception, you might be on weak ground.

From: 12yards
08-Feb-19
The fact of the matter is that compounds have been included in archery seasons for 40+ years and basically define archery seasons now. The technology is basically peaked out. You basically are getting different shaped bows/cams/etc. that deliver the same performance for the past probably 10-15 years. You still have to draw it, hold it, aim it under tension, and release an accurate arrow to kill something. For the most part, at least in the whitetail woods, distances of killing haven't changed much and P&Y records show that. Adding a shoulder fired crossbow with a scope that doesn't need to be drawn, held, aimed under tension and released, IMVHO, is going too far. They should be allowed for disabilities/injuries only or during other shoulder fired weapon seasons. It's where the line should be drawn regardless. The ease of compound use is an old tired argument. It's been proven they are not easy based on success rates alone.

From: Jake
08-Feb-19
OK 12 I will bite. Yes, compounds have been around for 40+ years. The stick bow has been around for centuries. Compounds shoot far faster than stick bows. Yes you have to draw the compound and stickbow BUT that is where it ends. Compounds are drawn with the wrist and the hand never touches the string. The tension holding is minable. The stick bow is drawn with the fingers and held with all the poundage of the bow to bear. The release is again with finger and takes countless hours to perfect if at all. They never show the numbers killed with stick bows compared to compounds and that is telling. The compounds overran the and string bows and were very organized and left them in the dust. Reason because compounds have a much shorter learning curve than stick bows do. In other words easier. Still in today's world people want easier and the crossbow filled that void.. I find it entertaining that compounders are being so hypocritical when that is how they got their start. That being said, crossbow are advancing at a faster pace than the latter two. For that reason banning the scope would stop the speed race and make the crossbow fall in line with the rest. IMHO

From: JTV
08-Feb-19
Who says compounds never have fingers touch the string ..... smh ...... there are still many who are finger shooters, not as many as there used to be, but they are out there ... I used to use a tab with my first compounds ... some are just so blind at trying to say crossbows are the same as hand drawn/hand held bows it aint funny any longer .... How do you shoot a crossbow, like a firearm....... much different with compounds and recurves aint it, both are drawn with the hand/arm, back muscles and held with the same and must be drawn in the presence of game and released within several seconds or ones form deteriorates ...... the arguments the CB lovers use are so worn out, it is past pathetic ..

From: Jake
08-Feb-19
Jtv, yes there are a few that use fingers. The overwhelming majority use mechanical. But you most certainly can cling to that thought. Man, compounders will do most anything to be like the stick bow guys. Yes both stick and wheelies drawn but the draw is all together different which I already explained. I use a rope cocker to draw the crossbow. A gun does not have or need one. Yes both need to have the trigger pulled but the results are FAAAAAAR different. Sometimes these compounders arguments are so worn out and pathetic.

From: Deerplotter
08-Feb-19
Baaaaaaah!!

From: JTV
08-Feb-19
Jake, seek help your CBDS is getting worse .... your BS just dosnt ad up .... you are on a plank walking to the very end .... take that last step, please, for all of us here ....

From: Jake
08-Feb-19
Most people that can not see reality go into denial. That is OK. We disagree. No need to be insulting young man.

From: Bill Obeid
08-Feb-19
Jake, what’s your agenda here on Bowsite.?

Do You work for a crossbow company ?

Shoot what you want to shoot. Hunt how you want to hunt. And , hunt the archery season with a crossbow ! But, there’s no one here that you can convince that a crossbow is even remotely like a bow ! If you want to categorize a crossbow as archery equipment.... go ahead... take your little victory and go home. Just cause it’s archery equipment doesn’t mean it’s a bow or even comparable!

Just don’t try to convince any archer that shoots arrows with any bow ....... that they would have the same experience shooting a crossbow. Let me suggest this to you .....Try being honest with yourself.

From: Jake
08-Feb-19
If I had to be totally honest with myself I would have given up archery in the late 70's when I switch from recurve to compound. I went a step down there. In 2002 I had no choice. I was hit was severe RA. In 2005 I got to go into the woods and hunt again because of the crossbow. In a perfect world I'd be shooting a recurve. That is my story. I really like the back and forth with you guys. No I will not change anybodies minds and you will not change mine. I have given a concession and that is the no scopes on crossbows but you offer nothing. That is what I see. Sorry PS at 67 there is little that will change my mind on this subject either.

From: JTV
08-Feb-19
YOUNG ??? .... yep, I'm 61 yrs young, thank you ...... and STILL running and racing, back packing my LW stand/4 Sticks in and out EVERY hunt, sometimes over a mile or more ... and Still shooting hand held/hand drawn BOWS ....... I'll never devolve to shooting the rifle looking crossthingys no matter my age or physical condition, ..... if I have go to back to hunting with shoulder fired tools for ungulates it will be with a firearm, there isnt any hiding what they are ....

From: Jake
08-Feb-19
Jtv with all do respect until your health is taken away from you, you really cannot imagine what you will do. Enjoy your hunting because it can change in a blink of an eye. Ahhhh youth. Good night.

From: GF
09-Feb-19
You know, I don’t think there is anybody on here who would honestly advocate for prohibiting crossbow used by those with a physical disability.

And I DID say DISABILITY. Kids who simply haven't yet grown up to a size where they can handle a hunting-weight vertical bow can wait.

From: JTV
09-Feb-19
no, there isnt ^^ .... but for EVERYONE else who uses CB's in BOW/archery seasons, they dont belong ..

From: Huntcell
09-Feb-19
Around and around and around a typical Wisconsin thread goes national

Time to lock the dead horse in.

From: Z Barebow
09-Feb-19
Just killed too much time that I will never get back.

From: Drop Tine
10-Feb-19

Drop Tine's embedded Photo
Drop Tine's embedded Photo
New arrow on the market for bowhunters. Wonder what the success rate will jump to with those??

10-Feb-19
Success rate will not matter if they kill the same number of deer. How dumb!

From: Jake
10-Feb-19
Success rate, success rat, SUCCESS RATE. Put that up against stickbow versus compound bow and see what that tells you. Hypocrites much!! And I will say this again. Any able bodied person that shoot a compound should shoot a stick bow otherwise they are LAZY. Or, do you privileged people just get a pass because you sure as heck have a choice.

From: Drummer Boy
10-Feb-19
Common jake give it a rest.

From: Huntcell
10-Feb-19
Ma throw a PBJ sandwich down here I got a little more life in this thread.......Geez!

From: 1boonr
10-Feb-19
I’m sure glad we got that straight

From: Ambush
10-Feb-19
I had my wife read all of Jake’s posts. Then I told her “when I get like that, have the neighbor take me to the woods and kill me with a big rock!”

She totally agreed and did solemnly promise.

Then she asked, “do you suppose Jake has a good neighbor?”.

From: happygolucky
10-Feb-19
I had my wife read all of Jake’s posts. Then I told her “when I get like that, have the neighbor take me to the woods and kill me with a big rock!”

Want to flip this thread around and guarantee 500 posts? Have your neighbor shoot you with a Rage instead and you'll have a 50/50 chance of survival.

From: Jake
10-Feb-19
Ambush that is funny. LOL OK, I will leave you guys alone. sometimes comparisons just bites. Good hunting to all whatever your carrying

PS. Please let this thread die. I don't want to me teased back on any more than you want to see me.

10-Feb-19
This thread is interesting to me. I hunt MO and KS, both have legalized CB for archery season. Obviously my experience is a terrible sample, but these changes have yet to effect me. I am more concerned about wildlife management in ten years and beyond when quantities of numbers leaving hunting is much greater than the number entering.

This opinion expressed from someone who cannot afford to go on big dollar trophy hunts.

From: South Farm
11-Feb-19
It's not just hunting. Doesn't matter what industry or what sport, numbers are dwindling because of an aging population (namely baby boomers)...and the "newbies" ain't into it the way we were. That's fine, because we'll be dead and gone and they'll either be enjoying the sport the way they choose, or suffering the consequences of the choices they made. Either way they'll own it, so no need to lose hair over it. Shoot what ya like and enjoy it while it lasts..

From: Mnhunter1980
11-Feb-19
Maybe I’m deaf but I never heard the cry to slow down compounds or shorten the compound season since success rates were better than trad bows. I think Jake has a valid point.

From: 12yards
11-Feb-19
So the big statement to be made, then, is, since compounds are easier than trad bows, crossbows should be legal. Is that the logic we're using here?

11-Feb-19
And, since guns are easier than scoped crossbows, they should be legal in archery seasons too.

From: Jake
11-Feb-19
OK, I'm back in. NO, that is not the point 12 yards. The point MN is making is that the compound shooter has been out harvesting stick bow shooters for years and years and everything was fine. Now that the crossbow shooter in on top it is terrible. The sky is falling. He is showing compound shooter for the hypocrites that they are.

Missouri. What your saying makes no sense at all. The compounder contention was the able bodied men should not have to shoot crossbows. Using that logic the able bodied compound shooter should be shooting a stick bow and if he is not why not. Lazy, or easier and why do the compound shooter get the choice?

From: South Farm
11-Feb-19
Just get a Bazooka and get it over with already! Of course, then some dude will come along with a tank. It never ends..

11-Feb-19
But jake it does make sense. If most hunters are not going to limit and challenge themselves, why not have one simple season and use whatever weapon one chooses? Season and opportunity will be adjusted to meet managemnt objectives, it is that simple.

From: RutnStrut
11-Feb-19
Well if we are going to pick it apart. Why not limit treestand hunters, over those that hunt from the ground? How about you get a year round season if you don't use the internet, walk to and from the woods, and only use whale fat to light and heat your hut. Jake this is following your line of thinking here.

From: Jake
11-Feb-19
Rut, that is another consideration. But right now the perceived problem is able bodied crossbow hunters should not shoot crossbows. I am not picking apart anything. I am just repeating what compounders are against. Now, why are able bodied compound shooters that could jus as well shoot stick bows not shooting them? They are perfectly capable of shooter stick bows but are not. Why do they get a choice and weapons. Compounds have proven to be a superior weapon with a much higher success rate. Does this sound familiar. The others can just deflect away.

From: KX500
11-Feb-19
From this thread I have learned that crossbows (aka, xguns, crossguns, etc.) Are guns. Oh yes and they are equivalent to guns (or maybe better than) as deer killing weapons.

So from this, I can say that allowing other guns (the ones that fire bullets) into archery season would have no impact on archery deer season, since crossbows are already allowed.

Right? Has to make sense, using what I've learned from this thread.

From: Jake
11-Feb-19
Actually Missouri since the invention of the compound, hunters have been moving away from challenging themselves. I am using the stick bow for a benchmark. The compound was invented solely to make it easier so more would enter the sport. When Bear hunting in Canada you could shoot the bear with most anything, bow gun spear, it did not matter. It has been done.

From: Jake
11-Feb-19
KX judging by what you just said you have not learn much. LOL

From: JTV
11-Feb-19
and once again, the CBophiles fail to realize the rifle like qualities of the CB, vs the still hand drawn/handheld necessity of recurves/Compounds .... I find no challenge in shooting a CB nor even a firearm for deer... I do find challenge in getting close to game with a recurve or compound ... as Ive said before, Ive passed on numerous deer that easily could have been killed with a CB, but had to pass on when I was with a recurve or Compound .... while it may not show on private lands, but on many of our state lands, the once quiet and sublime archery season is now as crowded as it is during the gun seasons... deer numbers are dropping here, over use of bonus/anterless tags is the reason and higher kills of the CB's are picking up state wide ... luckily the DNR did finally back off some on the AL tags, thank goodness they are not allowed on some state areas, why, because of the pressure and hunter numbers and more AL deer now taken during the ML seasons and with CB's ... I expect to see the kill numbers about equal from last season CB vs verticle bows or maybe even ahead of verticle bows as the CB kill and use has been steadily rising ... the kill went up 31% from from 2016 to 2017 with those using them !! .... our 2018 report wont be out for a while

From: Jake
11-Feb-19
Yes, it is interesting watching the numbers. When the compound was invented they made no complaints when Compound hunters started to increase there kill rate while the stick bow stayed the same. Now I am sure they keep that comparison buried for a reason.

From: Mnhunter1980
11-Feb-19
What about all the deer compounders shoot that are just outside of recurve range? We don’t own the rut. If total buck harvest stays similar what does it matter what month a buck is harvested? If crossbows killed all their bucks in December would we complain? I don’t think so. Like I said Us compounders don’t own the rut.

From: Jake
11-Feb-19
Mn your absolutely right. That is why the compounders love to compare themselves to traditional bowhunters but leave out the huge discrepancy between the compounder buck kill and the stickbows. Not even a contest. The compounder have had the rut to themselves for a vert long time and they have grown somehow above everyone else. NO, the deer are for everyone.

11-Feb-19
South Farm,,,,,"the new guys are not into it, the way we were?" Buddy, go on the Hunting Beast Forum,,, them young guys are getting it done, they are more hard core than many I had seen 30 years ago,,,, its nice to see

You have to expand a little more my friend, but they are out there, and slamming it

I am almost 70, but the guys I now hunt with are between 30 and 50,,,, most of my friends, have hung it up, me, I will never be taken alive,,, ha ha

From: KX500
11-Feb-19
No reasonable person would deny the gun like qualities of a crossbow. I never have - I embrace those qualities. Most here find that offensive. So?

Considering the operation of a crossbow, I would think that no reasonable person would call one a gun either. But many do. As I have pointed out, that still doesn't make a crossbow a gun.

What is so wrong if the level of challenge that I like best is different than yours? Many here talk like crossbows come with 'big buck magnets'. Mine must need adjusted as it has only worked once over many days afield in 2 years.

Killing nice bucks is challenging, even with a crossbow. My effective range is pretty much the same as all those years I hunted with a compound. Like that or don't -doesn't matter to me.

From: Jake
11-Feb-19
KX, I agree. Every year I normally shoot just one arrow if that. This year I did not shoot at all. I must be doing something wrong.

From: JRW
11-Feb-19
I very highly doubt WI will choose to shorten the existing crossbow season.

From: Timbrhuntr
11-Feb-19
I hope not too it would be boring here !

From: Slippery Paw
11-Feb-19
They need to outlaw trail cameras. Make people learn how to scout and hunt again. Can you image the bucks that would still be out there if you couldn't utilize trail cameras? The easy train runs all the way thru the sport of archery hunting. Singling out crossbows is ludicrous.

From: Myke
11-Feb-19
Geez, a couple of general statements are being made that overlook quite a bit.

1st - It DOES matter when the bucks are shot, it is NOT a total numbers game. If more bucks are shot BEFORE the does are bred, that CAN make a significant difference in the population dynamics. This makes NO difference with how the deer are removed from the herd early on; trad bow, compound bow, or crossbow. A dead buck will not breed a doe. This could be significant in the north; maybe not so much in the south.

2nd - We are moving significant amounts of hunters from the late November gun season to the September - October time frame. Arguing that the total number of hunters is shrinking does not take this massive movement into account. Even if only half of the 90,000 WI crossbow hunters came from the gun ranks, that is a still significant amount of shifting hunting pressure. If not from the gun ranks, then MOST are coming from compound users? Really? Now add the amount of non-hunters in the woods in this time frame. Public land is seeing full parking lots? Most likely will get worse, not better. Not a good formula for recreational use of public land without conflicts.

3rd - Which weapon is advancing itself technologically more than any other? Which "primitive" weapon is being marketed as a rifle? Which weapon is getting demonstrated by the manufacturers, as a weapon capable of accurately shooting at distances far above it's competitors when in the hands of neophytes? The closest thing to the crossbow, according to the mfgr's claims, IMO is most likely a shotgun with slugs, which the DNR does not allow as a weapon of choice in the Sept-Oct time frame without the use of orange clothing. So why is the crossbow getting a pass on this? BTW - Muzzleloaders do not get a pass, either on blaze orange use. A couple of people from the general public getting a crossbow bolt injury will cause far more of an outcry than anything the gun hunters may do. That is big, big trouble for all hunters. We should be able to police ourselves. I have said it many times; ditch the scopes, OR move their season start date back after the leaf drop for safety reasons. You choose crossbow users, which will it be?

4th - History really doesn't matter all that much. What matters is what is the current situation. Saying the compounders got a pass does nothing for the situation that is being created by the movement of massive amounts of people to the crossbow. Two wrongs do not somehow make a right. For the record, I shot a selfbow in 2018. I haven't touched a compound in decades. I don't really care about either the compound or crossbow, only the wildlife resource and safety that is jeopardized by increased hunting pressure.

I really do not care who shoots what buck. Those statistics will be argued, most likely over and over no matter what the NRB does. But if the general public starts to see too many wounded deer(deer are not long range paper targets) or, hopefully not, wounded people. We are all in deep chit. Trying to micro manage the buck population and ignore basic safety and physics is reckless. They(NRB) and we as hunters, need to wake up a little here. Fix the safety issue first via a technology adjustment, then argue about who shoots what.

From: RutnStrut
11-Feb-19
So for those that are for crossbows. Where does it stop? What about when crossbows are even more technologically advanced? Why not airbows? Why exclude rifles from archery season? It's not fair that we can't hunt at night with spotlights.

From: Tonybear61
11-Feb-19
"My effective range is pretty much the same as all those years I hunted with a compound. Like that or don't -doesn't matter to me." BS- I dare you sir to consistently shoot bucks at 100 yds with a compound bow. Until you are honest with the effectiveness and extended range of the crossbow support of your argument will get nowhere.. not on this thread. Like it or not-The extended range, ease of use is behind the surge in crossbow use. Pushing it into the hand held archery season with a false narrative of comparing it equally to hand held, drawn and released compounds is beyond laughable.

From: TrapperKayak
12-Feb-19
"Have your neighbor shoot you with a Rage instead and you'll have a 50/50 chance of survival" Have him shoot you with a .58 cal round ball and you'll be back on Bowsite in the morning.

From: happygolucky
12-Feb-19
Trying to micro manage the buck population and ignore basic safety and physics is reckless. They(NRB) and we as hunters, need to wake up a little here. Fix the safety issue first via a technology adjustment, then argue about who shoots what.

I'm curious about this perceived safety issue. How many people have been shot by xbow hunters in WI so far? I have not heard of any but perhaps I am out of touch. I only hunt private.

For the record to those who say xbows don't belong in the archery season - they are technically not in WI's archery season. They have their own season which can be adjusted, hence the OP. The question is, will the NRA continue to fight for xbows or have they just moved on to another state to get them included there?

From: 12yards
12-Feb-19
RutnStrut, Jake said he would make sure that crossbows don't advance anymore. Or that no advancements would be allowed in archery seasons. ;^) How'd that work out for those muzzleloader seasons?

The fact is, anyone who wants the challenge of killing deer with a crossbow, can. In MN, they just have to do it in firearms and muzzleloader season. And the firearms season is in the peak of the rut here in MN so they can enjoy that. Also if you are disabled, injured, or over 60 you can use one during the entirety of bow season. Three over-60 friends did that last fall killing deer at 60, 80 and 90 yards with their Ravins. Two of those friends admitted that these shouldn't be in archery seasons.

From: Mnhunter1980
12-Feb-19
The extended range is a lost cause since that is a personal mistake to shoot deer like paper. I don’t personally know anyone who hunts with a crossbow , but I know many compound hunters that use the same mentality as mentioned above and shooting at deer WAY further than there capable. That is strictly a personal mistake on a case by case basis. I’m not a crossbow advocate at all. There are just to many far fetched reasons/scenarios that don’t actually happen. I’m all for dropping the scopes during the archery season. I have zero skin in this game just an outside perspective. I hunted public land in wi starting in November and saw 1 hunter . He was hunting with a crossbow and he didn’t fill his buck tag. In MN we share our rut with firearms hunters

From: 12yards
12-Feb-19
I know a pile of compound shooters and don't know one that has killed a deer at 60 yards. The three xbow hunters I know have all shot deer over 60. And, MNhunter1980, you being from MN know that innovation of muzzle loaders continues and scopes will eventually be legal for them. The muzzy season is a joke. It is just another rifle season now. Xbows will follow the same path.

From: TrapperKayak
12-Feb-19
'...over 60 you can use one during the entirety of bow season.' Wow, age really has a stigma attached to it eh? "I'm over 60 so I am decrepit and too feeble and weak to hunt with a real bow now, so I get to hunt with a crossbow. I am at such a disadvantage now, I'm ^) Oh $#!+, what happened to me? " What a bunch of BS that rule is. It is an allowance, a biased privilege given probably to further some suckup's agenda and get their way. I for one am of the same physical capability as when I was 30, and know a bunch of people over 60 who are as well. That is a lousy way to categorize a hunting law. The allowance of use of a xbow during general archery season should be based on individual ability and necessity, not age. BS!.

From: South Farm
12-Feb-19
They say wild game is "better" for you...you'll live longer, right? After reading this I think the STRESS caused trying to legitimize how we kill a stupid deer is far off worse for you than some old heifer pumped full of steroids.

From: APauls
12-Feb-19
How in the heck would eliminating scopes somehow bring crossbows in line? Are people that far removed from Iron sites that they don't know how deadly they are? Iron sites at 100 yards are a piece of cake. I've killed jack rabbits at 200+ yards with a .22 and fairly consistently.

Jake, to your whole "able bodied men should shoot recurves comment." No one touches it because it is completely asinine so I'll say what everyone already knows but you don't. Traditional archery, by en large is a difficult challenge that isn't for everyone. Not every able bodied man can participate in it and be an ethical shot. There are many people who have attempted to take up traditional archery and hunt with the equipment, only to miss repeatedly, and worse, wound and maim animals. Whitetails can and will jump string at extremely close ranges like 15-20 yards making very few shots "sure shots" assuming the best of conditions and taking the skill of the archer out of the equation. Now add to that equation the fact that not everyone can get their traditional equipment to shoot to "acceptable" standards and you've got a recipe for disaster assuming "every able bodied man takes up traditional archery hunting." For these reasons, (thankfully) there are many for whom it simply doesn't work, and as opposed to continue to maim and wound animals they use the compound bow so that they too can enjoy archery season. You do not want to see the results of changing archery seasons to trad only. Trust me. The coyotes would enjoy the fall season more than most. And how in the heck would that be a good thing?

Everyone else seems to be able to make the distinction between what archery is and what archery isn't. Everyone else seems to be under the agreement that when a person is physically disabled, a crossbow is a good method for that person to still partake in the season, so it seems like we're actually in a good place. People aren't against crossbows in archery season because it's EASIER, they are against it because it isn't ARCHERY. That's why people are happy with recurves, longbows, and compounds all in the same season, because they all fall under the standard agreed upon definition of archery where a person needs to draw a bow and release and arrow.

We are all impressed that you hunted for many years with a recurve, but just because you did, doesn't mean everyone should. Coming from a guy who hunts with both wheels and sticks and enjoys them both.

From: TrapperKayak
12-Feb-19
You go ahead and eat your marbled cow then - kill it with a stun gun - way less stress. ;) I'll stick with a stick and eat the lean mean whitetail machine... and still be stress free. :) Peace Brother!

From: KX500
12-Feb-19
The arrows from my crossbow come out at about 320 fps. How many hunters using a compound could say the exact same thing? When I say my effective range hasn't changed, that is because it hasn't. Call me a liar if you want, but I know my reality better than you.

I didn't change to a crossbow because I wanted to shoot deer at 100 yards. The main reason I switched Is so that I could accurately place an arrow quickly, at normal archery distances. I've lost track of the number of nice bucks that have walked because the shot opportunity lasted about 1-2 seconds not long enough. Is that just part of hunting with a bow? Sure. Acceptable to me, when there is another archery option available that I can shoot accurately and quicker? No. I see a crossbow as archery simply because that is what it is to me. We don't have to agree on that. I hunt with a crossbow in the same manner that I did with a compound.

And since I've never messed with shooting a compound at 100 yards, I've not messed with it with a crossbow either.

And if I were to get interested in shooting at 100 yards, I'd have to ask myself questions like, how much energy does may arrow have left and what are the odds of wounding? I'd probably just decide that a 100 yard shot. for me, wouldn't be ethical. Heck, my crossbow could be capable of it. I'll never know.

And really, ethics is pretty much the whole reason I respond to any of these crossbow threads.

The real theme here is that choosing to hunt in archery season with a crossbow is wrong & unethical. And none of the arguments presented can really show that to be true. Everybody is entitled to an opinion & who gets to decide that yours is more valid than mine?

And I get that so many crossbows haters kind of love the Ravin, since it is such a good example of what is 'wrong' with crossbows. But I'm pretty sure that Ravin doesn't sell more crossbows than anybody - high price alone would make that true. And sure , if you are buying a Ravin, there is a good chance you are thinking outside normal archery limits. But I'm going to guess that for every Ravin owner, there are probably about 10 other crossbow hunters who hunt with them just like I do.

And as some have pointed out - This is a Hobby! I'm pretty sure none of us here have to kill a deer or our family won't eat.

If you are really about ready to punch somebody, over a difference of opinion concerning a hobby - maybe take a step back for a minute. Consider bowling, fishing, golf, etc......

From: Timbrhuntr
12-Feb-19
Jake, to your whole "able bodied men should shoot recurves comment." No one touches it because it is completely asinine so I'll say what everyone already knows but you don't. Traditional archery, by en large is a difficult challenge that isn't for everyone. Not every able bodied man can participate in it and be an ethical shot. There are many people who have attempted to take up traditional archery and hunt with the equipment, only to miss repeatedly, and worse, wound and maim animals. Whitetails can and will jump string at extremely close ranges like 15-20 yards making very few shots "sure shots" assuming the best of conditions and taking the skill of the archer out of the equation. Now add to that equation the fact that not everyone can get their traditional equipment to shoot to "acceptable" standards and you've got a recipe for disaster assuming "every able bodied man takes up traditional archery hunting." For these reasons, (thankfully) there are many for whom it simply doesn't work, and as opposed to continue to maim and wound animals they use the compound bow so that they too can enjoy archery season. You do not want to see the results of changing archery seasons to trad only. Trust me. The coyotes would enjoy the fall season more than most. And how in the heck would that be a good thing?

Huh I thought the whole idea was its hard that's why a special whiner season for stickbows originally ! I don't follow your logic !

Comparing a crossbow to a shotgun funny stuff ! Oh I have 3 friends that all shot deer with their compounds at over 60 yards but none that shoot crossbows shot more than 30 LOL Ha Ha Ha

From: Slippery Paw
12-Feb-19

Slippery Paw's Link
It looks like the "real" bowhunters have a lower recovery rate.

From: South Farm
12-Feb-19
Those stats amaze me, considering I shoot a recurve and have lost just one bear and one deer in over 40 years of hunting...the bear I lost to a lake and the deer I lost only because I wasn't allowed permission to follow it and the warden didn't respond. Most years I shoot two deer. Either the stats lie or I don't know my brothers as well as I thought. One thing for sure, regardless of what weapon you use, if you're a bad shot you better be a good tracker, or vice versa!

From: Mnhunter1980
12-Feb-19
I agree that’s either piss poor shooting or piss poor tracking no excuse though either way. I know it happens but….

Very well done South farm! Now that’s something to be proud of!

From: APauls
12-Feb-19
Congrats South Farm, that's impressive.

I have to say I looked up a Ravin crossbow and now I want one. They look like a hoot, and I'd way rather use that in blackpowder season then a muzzleloader. They sure look fun.

From: KX500
12-Feb-19
http://www.thehonorablehunter.com/index.php/blog/200-why-are-we-turning-on-ourselves-fair-chase-legacy-crossbows-and-joe-bell

A very good read on the topic, that kinda summarizes most of what has been said here.

From: Jake
12-Feb-19
Sorry Doctors you know. OK, it was not my idea to take scopes off of crossbows. It was Myke and I agree. Comparing a iron sights on a rifle to crossbow is not really accurate. First off it is unethical to attempt a shot over 40 yards with a crossbow. In other words deer determine the distance. I do hope that we are talking ethical here because we have enough ass wholes in both sports. I have been fighting speed on the crossbow forum for some time know and the scope removal idea seems to me the most logical.

Sorry for hurting your feelings but comparing able bodied compounders and able bodied crossbow hunters has some merit. Your always maklng like your blood brothers but your not even kissin cousins. Sticks bows ARE the true archery. I give them all the credit. With that said compounds WERE invented to make it easier so more would enter the sport. And they sure did. In much greater numbers than crossbowers. If anyone has a dog in this fight I would think that it would be stick bow shooters. They were virtually alone in the woods at one time. Now it is flooded with hunters.

Personally I care less what a person shoots. I am a lot more interested in his hunting ability.

From: Timbrhuntr
12-Feb-19
There is no way shooting a ravin could compare to shooting a muzzleloader. Working up your own loads and getting the best setup then taking them out and hunting would be way better than sticking a bolt in a ravin shooting once and then good to go at 100 yards ;)

From: Jake
12-Feb-19
Timbrhuntr, is meet your next rifle a bad comparison now is it a good one. LOL I took a Ravin once and had a 10 yards shot at a bruiser and shot the Ravin and it heart shot a fawn a 100 no 200 yards away,, dang it. LOL That darn bow will not shoot up close.

From: RutnStrut
12-Feb-19
Of course the above article was by Durkin. No wonder it had the stench of sell out to it.

From: Timbrhuntr
12-Feb-19
Sure its anyway you ant it to be ! I love these silly crossbow threads and I'm bored funny to see how some people think and react. Save the wolves lol

From: Mnhunter1980
12-Feb-19
I think we can agree on one thing, we all love to hunt . Oh ya and save the wolves

From: Jake
12-Feb-19
Yup Mn we certainly do. Did you ever wonder why we fight over something that just pushes the arrow forward? The arrow selection is more important and does the work. And, the hunting and scouting is also more important. And save the wolves. NOT./

From: Boone
12-Feb-19
Well Jake to your last post let's not forget in a crossbow it's not called an arrow it's a bolt. Maybe because its fast like a bolt of lightning compared to a vertical bow which uses arrows.

From: Timbrhuntr
12-Feb-19
Actually it is called an arrow it has fletching LOL Kill all wolves !

From: Jake
13-Feb-19
Lets go through the arrow now At one time crossbows shot bolts. They are shooting the same thing that other bows are shooting now. Not that they or any modern arrow is like a real arrow. Each and every component on the modern arrow has been changed. That is right every single component. Look at what Indians shot and there is nothing on modern arrows that has not been altered to improve them.

From: Catscratch
13-Feb-19
One thing I've learned from 30+ years of bowhunting is that A LOT of bowhunters are in an endless pursuit of making things easier. Many can't go a full year without buying the newest flagship bow, and almost none of them that I've known can go more than 3 to 5 years without upgrading. Everything about bowhunting is upgraded constantly. Sliding sites with range finders, optics, drop away rests, releases, composite materials, etc. Hell, even arrows and broadheads are releasing new tech each yr that sells off the shelves. I saw a thread not long ago talking about $300/half dozen arrows. Lighted nocks. Mechanical broadheads. What's the point of a mechanical anyway.... to make your broadhead fly like a fieldpoint? And why would anyone want to do that instead of taking the time to do a proper tune? Simple answer to all of this is that they can "buy" away extra practice time, work, and skills.

With the knowledge of how archers trend towards tech and complexity to take away effort it doesn't surprise me that crossbows were readily accepted by a ton of vertical guys. Obviously most of the guys on this site don't fall into the trap of using tech and innovation to replace effort (I applaud you for that because I certainly did for a while), but spend any time reading threads about bowhunting and you can't help but understand the mindset that pushes the tech junkie towards the crossbow.

I gather that most on this site think crossbows shouldn't be allowed in bowseason. So how is it going to get done? How are bowhunters going to convince states to reverse regulations away from crossbows? How are legislators (who have industry and insurance lobbyists throwing big $$$$ at them) going to be convinced by the bowhunter that they should turn their back on the guy across the lunch table who offering to fund their next campaign? Bickering at each other isn't going to get it done. In fact I would bet that the vast majority of lawmakers have never read a crossbow thread and have no idea these thoughts are out there. So how does it get accomplished? Long ass threads don't seem to be the actual answer as I'm not seeing change going in the direction vertical guys want. Is it time to channel our energy into a different approach, or is this method good enough?

From: 1boonr
13-Feb-19
Has anybody changed their mind because of what they read on this thread?

From: Catscratch
13-Feb-19
1boonr, that is kind of the point of what I posted above. There was some good info posted and some differing viewpoints throughout this thread, but nobody is going to change their mind... it's already set. So what's the point of bickering with someone who won't change their mind and is powerless to accomplish change anyway? All this energy is wasted. It should be directed towards a point/source that can actually accomplish something.

13-Feb-19
The crossbow trends are not going to change, and who am I to say it should. Clearly, in states where crossbows are legal for all, most archery hunters prefer to quit bow and arrow hunting.... and would rather pursure scoped crossbow hunting. This is neither right or wrong. What is wrong is to not believe bowhunting and bowhunters are in serious decline, while scoped crossbow hunting is increasing. The future will see fewer and fewer real bowhunters, better to accept this fact and move on. Remember, scoped crossbow hunting is not bow and arrow hunting, it is scoped crossbow hunting. Best not to lie to your spouse, children and friends. Scoped crossbow hunters are not me.

From: happygolucky
13-Feb-19
Clearly, in states where crossbows are legal for all, most archery hunters prefer to quit bow and arrow hunting

I would say some but surely not most. The license numbers prove this out.

13-Feb-19
No Happy, the trending is not over. Where legal for all, scoped crossbows are growing annually, at about double digit growth. Bow and arrow use is declining annually. The retailers have it figured out, even though some in the hunting community fail to recognize the obvious.

From: Jake
13-Feb-19
I agree this thread will accomplish nothing. The stick bow was the orginal, then came the compound and technology ran its course with that. Now it is the crossbow and unfortunately crossbow are not close to their limits. I truly hope that in some way they can limit the speed for hunting purposes. Myke and I agree taking the scope off should do the trick. Time will tell.

From: Bill Obeid
13-Feb-19
Really ?? That’s the progression?

Stickbow—> compound—> crossbow? I don’t think so!

More like: Stickbow—>compound bow &

Old crossbow—> modern crossbow.

Mutually exclusive!

From: Catscratch
13-Feb-19
I would be ok with the scope thing, but feel it would be better to eliminate mechanical releases. That would truly be an equalizer of all human powered weapons. I honestly feel that compounds carried technology too far... but I also know that a change like that is a very unrealistic expectation.

From: Bill Obeid
13-Feb-19
I never felt compound bows were a game changer.

When I switched from my recurve to compound I nearly gave up on it. It wasn’t until the bow shop talked me into a release that I shot my compound as well at 30 yards as I shot my recurve at 15 yards. In my experience it was the release that was the game changer ... not the bow.

As a matter of fact Jake , my “ progression “ has been from stickbow... to compound bow..... back to stick bow.

13-Feb-19
No need for equalizers, trophies are defined by how they are earned. The challenge and effort defines the hunter, and the trophy.

From: Bill Obeid
13-Feb-19
Amen! Shoot what you want to shoot.... but , if you’re shooting crossbows don’t you think you should be making your arguments on a crossbow site instead of a Bowsite ?

From: KX500
13-Feb-19
Oh, I think these threads accomplish things - but just never what the Pope & Young minded intended.

I understand that P&Y had to take a stand (for or against) on crossbows. But it sure seems like they did you all a huge disservice by taking you down the 'crossbows aren't bow hunting' path and just leaving you there.

Doesn't the 'crossbows aren't bow hunting' statement lead to the question of, well what are they then? On this, P&Y seems to be completely silent. I'm sure the question has occurred to them. And they were smart enough not to call them guns - that would make the organization look silly. And they sure wouldn't want to call crossbow hunting a subsect of bow hunting, because that would be too close to calling it bow hunting. So with no acceptable answer, say nothing. Let the membership (paying or non-paying) define it. Very poor.

I wasn't there, but wouldn't you imagine that the crossbow inventor started with the thought 'I bet I could shoot my bow better if I made it into a shoulder fired weapon'. And the rest is history. And wouldn't that make crossbow hunting a subsect of bow hunting?

Change the terminology to 'scoped crossbow hunting' if you need to, but that still contains 'bow hunting'; the rest are just modifiers.

If it were to be shown that crossbows present some actual problem, I would be fine with legislation that matches the arrow speed between compounds & crossbow. No crossbow is allowed that offers speeds any higher than the fastest compound. Works for me.

Ravin wouldn't be happy.

I'd imagine better aiming leads to less wounded/lost animals. Keep the scopes. Not all of us keep 20/20 vision our whole lives.

From: Catscratch
13-Feb-19
Missouribreaks - that is a great attitude and one that I tend to follow. I've never once cared what others hunt with. But that attitude is VERY RARE by proof of this thread. It seems that a majority of bowhunters do care what other's are using. If crossbows have taken it too far (by popular opinion) then something needs to change... an equalizer of some sorts.

13-Feb-19
Yes, I do believe scoped crossbow shooters and supporters should not be on a bow and arrow site. However, I do not make the rules.

I only shoot selfbows and cedars, going on my 51st year of my self imposed challenge.

From: Jake
13-Feb-19
Bill there is no rule that says crossbow members are not allowed. Opposing views should be encouraged.

From: Jake
13-Feb-19
I agree a speed limit on both compound and crossbow would be great. 350fps would be my choice. Getting rid of scopes and releases would be another choice. I love bowhunting as like all of you. I want to save the sport.

From: Franklin
13-Feb-19
The horse died on post 65. Now you guys get a taste of our daily Wisconsin board....it`s embarrassing.

13-Feb-19
"Bill there is no rule that says crossbow members are not allowed. Opposing views should be encouraged."

True statement, however you need to keep a couple things in mind. There are many that have nothing against crossbows per se, but feel very strongly that they should not be allowed during archery season. It's that simple. So when you, or any other crossbow advocate, come on Bowsite, those same people are going to express their opposing view as well. Like many, you seem to think you are allowed to present your opinion, but get offended when others express theirs.

13-Feb-19
KX500, The P&Y club has an obvious and formidable challenge. That being... bow and arrow hunters which are their audience are declining, as eventually will their entries and financial support.

The P&Y Club has changed their standards multiple times in the past as compounds evolved, and they have little choice here if they intend to grow and prosper.

....... however, if game entries are to honor the animal, and NOT the hunter, it should not matter the manner of death. I never bought into the " honoring an animal by killing and entering it " philosophy. Perhaps I am missing something.

From: Bill Obeid
13-Feb-19
Jake... I’m aware there is no “rule”. Nor , would I want a rule.....But, I’m not sure what the attraction is........ I have no desire to visit a crossbow site as I have nothing in common with those users. I would just think crossbow users would do the birds of a feather thing.

13-Feb-19
Scoped crossbow users are searching for acceptance into the bow and arrow hunting fraternity, that is why they are here in this site.

I do believe from the historical posts this is a great place to meet closet scoped crossbows users, enablers, and supporters. Scoped crossbows are way, way more common in the hunting families and camps than most realize, or care to admit.

From: Catscratch
13-Feb-19
I imagine the attraction is that many crossbow users are also vertical users (or at least were vertical users somewhat recently). They simply don't want left out of the club that they've been in their whole life. That, or they honestly don't feel that a crossbow is close enough to a rifle to be kicked out of the archery club. It's all opinion until you read your state's laws and regulations. States tend to have pretty clear definitions of what bows are defined as, and what is legally allowed in archery season.

From: South Farm
13-Feb-19
Jake - "Did you ever wonder why we fight over something that just pushes the arrow forward? "

Umm, I think the fight is more over what PULLS the arrow back, then what pushes it forward. Nice try though..

From: Knife2sharp
13-Feb-19
I'm not reading every post, but I'm sure it's been discussed. I'm all for a one buck per hunter, per season, in WI, as well as getting rid of party hunting. Hunters don't need to be greedy, and if a guy goes out and shoots a buck with his crossbow and wants to continue hunting during the gun season, shoot a doe. They may be a bit more selective in what they harvest prior to gun season as well.

I've been crossbow hunting in WI the past 3 seasons, I have yet to harvest my first deer with one because I'm selective. We haven't been shooting does on our property for several years to get their numbers back. It's not a large piece of property, and it's an a suburban/rural area with a lot of public land around.

Also, their suggestions are ridiculous IMO. I don't want to see hunting restrictions structured like fishing regulations, e.g., not being able to use a crossbow on weekends or some other stupid algorithm.

From: KX500
13-Feb-19
I for one, hope that Pope & Young never change their stance on crossbows - even if it means closing their doors. They have their line in the sand. Don't move it based on money.

And if they were to do so, why would it work? Why would all those they have cast aside want to come to them?

And acceptance is really more like submission, if you must go along with the group to get it. Who really wants that?

There is no set of test questions one must get right in order to access Bowsite.

From: Jake
13-Feb-19
South Farm the compounders mainly pull their string back with a loop or hook device on their mechanical releases. Their are some that still use their hands. Crossbows mainly use a cocking rope. Some use their hands. But all push the arrow forward. Nice try.

From: Jake
13-Feb-19
Wyobull I am not offended in the least. We have cabin fever time here and I really enjoy the back and forth that is going on. Hearing both sides is important. Very civilized compared to the Wi. site.

From: Jake
13-Feb-19
Wyobull I am not offended and hope I have not offended anyone. Back and forth is the way to come to terms with what is out there for answers.

Sorry, double post.

From: South Farm
13-Feb-19
Oh, thanks Jake for clearing that up for me. I wasn't sure how it was done. Only been bowhunting 40 years so I'm kinda new at this.

From: kent
13-Feb-19
Enjoyable thread, I personally have been hunting for over 45 years and enjoy all weapons including traditional bows compounds and guns. Hunt all seasons and now yes with the crossbow. It has not changed my mind set or the way I hunt in any way. So its effect is none. I will say that if states are pushed to separate the season beware that it ill only shorten the bow season by weeks as the states will still keep the gun season for the majority of the rut. Seriously think about that in the long run its not in our best interest---Kent

From: Jake
13-Feb-19
South Farm no problem. I have been at this for 50 years so I understand.

From: Ambush
13-Feb-19
Quote: "Now you guys get a taste of our daily Wisconsin board....it`s embarrassing."

A few years ago, when I got my P&Y hunt raffle tickets in the mail, I did as usual and bought them all for myself and hunting partner. Adam, my partner won the Wisconsin whitetail hunt sponsored by a landowner there. He went to hunt the rut.

He met the host and was put up, taken to stands and shot a great P&Y class buck. It was all the other stuff that had him just pumped about the whole hunt! Everybody he met was great. Went to a pub that was all about hunting, with gun and bow raffles, people out front appreciating bucks in trucks. They came out of a Walmart and there were people standing around his host's truck admiring their bucks. Went to the P&Y museum and met some folks and one fellow just randomly invited them to a big fish fry at his house. It was a great time with fellow bow hunters. talking and showing pictures and sharing stories. Adam was just blown away by the hunting culture and how outgoing and friendly people were towards him and hunting in general. His host was an awesome guy that just loved to hunt. Everybody talked about trail cam pics and where certain bucks may show up.

He would love to go back!

So despite the apparent bickering and division on the Wisconsin board, over all, it must be a great state to be a hunter in. Be thankful!!

From: CaptMike
13-Feb-19
Same Jake, different forum.

From: Drummer Boy
13-Feb-19
Ambush you are right you are right Wisconsin has a great hunting culture.I have hunted in 15 states and I have yet to see the passion that is in Wisconsin.That is why we have so many arguments because we care.We do not want bowhunting to become to easy.Why do it just gun at least your honest.

From: Mnhunter1980
13-Feb-19
For the past few decades bowhunting has become much easier. Every year comes something bigger and better. Higher let off , lighted sights, lighted nocs, any kind of mechanical release you can imagine. We accept all the speed and gadgets for us but another DEER HUNTER (crossbow) wants to share the rut and we must stop this insane crossgun. Most compounds shoot over 300 FPS, what’s too much? 400? I still think it boils down to not wanting to share the rut. At what point does it become too easy for us compounders? If it was all for saving the primitive season we would have slowed down the advancements on compounds 20 years ago. Just sayin..... can’t we come together as hunters and look past what is projecting our broadheads? We have way bigger fish to fry with the antis to be divided over this.

From: Mnhunter1980
13-Feb-19
For the past few decades bowhunting has become much easier. Every year comes something bigger and better. Higher let off , lighted sights, lighted nocs, any kind of mechanical release you can imagine. We accept all the speed and gadgets for us but another DEER HUNTER (crossbow) wants to share the rut and we must stop this insane crossgun. Most compounds shoot over 300 FPS, what’s too much? 400? I still think it boils down to not wanting to share the rut. At what point does it become too easy for us compounders? If it was all for saving the primitive season we would have slowed down the advancements on compounds 20 years ago. Just sayin..... can’t we come together as hunters and look past what is projecting our broadheads? We have way bigger fish to fry with the antis to be divided over this.

From: Jake
13-Feb-19
Well said Mnhunter

From: RutnStrut
13-Feb-19
Mnhunter1980, just because a compound has an IBO speed of say 340, doesn't mean it shoots that. Actually most real world hunting setups shoot under 300. There are so many factors to a hand drawn bow that affect speed. Draw length, draw weight, arrow weight, tune, weight on string. There is none of this with crossbows other than tune and bolt weight. As far as your comments about the rut. You live in a state that believes it's good to have gun season open the first weekend of November. So of course you want to see WI go down the shitter.

From: RutnStrut
13-Feb-19
Yes WI does have a great hunting culture that some are trying to preserve while others could care less.

13-Feb-19
Less than half of Wisconsin hunters care about bow and arrow culture, and the associated challenge. It has become all about horn porn, no turning back.

From: Mnhunter1980
13-Feb-19
Rut I have no reason to want wi to go down the tubes. I live 20 miles from wi and it’s a great place!

From: Jake
13-Feb-19
Change is in the wind Rutnstrut. Jus like when compounds hit the market but with less whining.

From: Bill Obeid
13-Feb-19
“ I still think it boils down to not wanting to share the rut.“

Personally......I think it boils down to exploiting the rut.

Bow hunting during the rut was allowed because bows did little to affect the whitetail deer population.

Along came compound bows and still there were no concerns about deer populations.

Now crossbows were introduced into archery season and Wisconsin is considering shortening the crossbow season.

You can’t take a bow and put it on a gunstock and still have a bow. It becomes a HYBRID. And it’s making killing deer during the rut too easy . The rut is when deer are the most vulnerable! The rut can’t be hunted with weapons that are too efficient.

“I still think it boils down to not wanting to share the rut.”

Give me a brake... it has nothing to do with being selfish and wanting to not share the rut.

Honestly... maybe it’s crossbow hunters using a too efficient weapon during a time of year when deer are too vulnerable.... maybe they’re being the selfish ones!

From: jjs
13-Feb-19
Always said that it isn't the antis it is the Big Tent, someone eventually will get kick out from no room. I live right across the River and used to hunt the Wi. side public bottoms and the increase of the bolt throwers have impacted the bow hunt, more driving uptake. As the song went " looking for quality but have to settle for quantity", private land does not matter but public land does and more sure aint better when a tribe comes through with the bolt throwers.

13-Feb-19
Private lands are managed, and do not become crowded. Public lands are where the greatest impact occurs. So many here say " who cares what your neighbor is doing"? Neighbors on deeded lands are not the concern and nobody cares, it is the public lands that are impacted the most.

From: Jake
13-Feb-19
Missouri if you are that convince I suggest buying some land. It will never be cheaper.

13-Feb-19
I own plenty, thank you.

From: Jake
13-Feb-19
Missouri then let more on yours to take pressure off of public. I had to sell my hunting land and I am not worried. In fact I thought hunting numbers were going down?

13-Feb-19
Dumb statements.

From: CaptMike
13-Feb-19
Bill O certainly gets it. It is nothing short of greed that drives able bodied hunters to push for easier kills via the crutchbow.

13-Feb-19
Bill O does get it.

From: RutnStrut
13-Feb-19
"Honestly... maybe it’s crossbow hunters using a too efficient weapon during a time of year when deer are too vulnerable.... maybe they’re being the selfish ones!"

Excellent point and a perfect example of this is across the border in MN. They have their gun season during the rut. Hunting in Mn is nowhere near as good as WI.

From: Jake
13-Feb-19
Able bodied hunters have been pushing technology since its conception with the compound bow. The only change is that they got one upped by the crossbow hunters.

13-Feb-19

Mike the Carpenter's embedded Photo
Mike the Carpenter's embedded Photo
Figured we could use a little humor here.

From: Bill Obeid
13-Feb-19
Jake, that statement makes you sound like you’re gloating after crossbows we’re crowbarred into a season where they don’t belong. You’re already skating on thin ice

From: 40 yard
13-Feb-19
Jake, what is your connection to the crossbow industry? It seems like the only threads that you post on have to do with crossbows.

From: Jake
13-Feb-19
Bill I am just saying when compounds started out they were 30% let-off with spring rests and straight point bar sights. Aluminum cast risers and lots of forward shock. The compound has steadily used technology to the point where they are 85%Let-off carbon risers and no hand shock and built for the mechanical releases. Very expensive slide sights and fall away rests. They have teched out mostly. And, now the crossbow is doing the same thing compounds did using technology to improve there ease of use. They one upped the compounds. Not sure where you get the ice skating from but OK.

From: Jake
13-Feb-19
40 I only go on crossbow thread because that is my interest. I think that it is humorous that the very people that raced for technology to make it easier are now complaining that the crossbow has beat them at their own game. The people that should be pissing and moaning should be the stick bow shooter but they have this thing called class.

From: Bill Obeid
13-Feb-19
The skating on thin ice was in reference to what I feel is the weakness in your argument. ( watching the Penguins tonight)

I agree that compound bows have technologically plateaued.

But if they’re so damn easy to shoot... why are so many switching to crossbows? I’ll tell you why..... because they’re even easier to use.

No matter what you attach to a compound bow , you still have to hold it at arms length away from your body , pull the string with your other arm and hold it steady , while trying to hold steady on target you’ve got half your body pulling and half your body pushing. I don’t have to explain this to you... you shot a bow at one time. It’s still a challenge to hold it steady.

Now if you cock a crossbow and set it on a rest , how much physical exertion are you applying? Where is the challenge? You’ve made your weapon so easy to use that it’s no longer fits the season it’s being used in.

From: Mnhunter1980
13-Feb-19
Rut I have no reason to want wi to go down the tubes. I live 20 miles from wi and it’s a great place!

From: Jake
13-Feb-19
Yes, you have to hold a compound at arms length but from the time it was invented to now with carbon risers it is super light. Yes, you have to draw it but from its beginning it was hand drawn with 30% let-off and now a 85% let-off with a mechanical release which is attached to your wrist. You never touch the string at all. They are compared to a stick bow easy to shoot. But you see able bodied men choose the compound over the stick bow because it is a lot easier. Yes the crossbow once cocked is good to go. I have for hunting purposes and I believe we are talking hunting purposes here never used a rest to shoot. The target is always moving and rest get in the way. And remember after that first shot that is it. You do not get a second shot with a crossbow.

But like I said all this the compound did to the stick bow making it easier and now the crossbow is doing it to you. And , as far as thin ice goes, I make my own ice. It does not matter to me if I am in your good standing. I am not on trial here. LOL I need only to give my opinion as you do and let the chips fall where they may.

From: Jake
13-Feb-19
Is the guy in that pic Gene Wenzel??

From: Myke
13-Feb-19
i think that it is Barry Wensel.

From: Lost Arra
14-Feb-19
Pardon the interruption.

Another crossbow advantage not mentioned: a friend was injured this year and the last weekend of the season he used a crossbow to kill a doe. He said the 25 yard shot would have been impossible with his recurve as the doe came in on his right side from behind him so he shot it left handed! Try switching hands with any vertical bow!

From: Jake
14-Feb-19
Hmm, he has a talent. I had a 185 buck come in on my left side, I am left handed and caught me sitting. Coming right at me. Could not stand or twist around and shoot. Wonder how he did that while NOT using his dominate eye to aim. That guy has a talent. Good for him. But then again he is a recurve shooter so he is talented.

From: South Farm
14-Feb-19
"South Farm no problem. I have been at this for 50 years so I understand."

My apologies, from your posts here and elsewhere I thought you were much much younger.

From: JTV
14-Feb-19

JTV's embedded Photo
JTV's embedded Photo
JTV's embedded Photo
not a handheld/hand drawn BOW
JTV's embedded Photo
not a handheld/hand drawn BOW
JTV's embedded Photo
these things should be in the shoulder fired weapons ONLY seasons ....
JTV's embedded Photo
these things should be in the shoulder fired weapons ONLY seasons ....
JTV's embedded Photo
this thing shouldnt be in BOW seasons ...
JTV's embedded Photo
this thing shouldnt be in BOW seasons ...
Suuuuure, they are same as a hand drawn/hand held BOW ...... suuuuure they are ..

From: Jake
14-Feb-19
JTV and again we are talking hunting here and the pics you show are bench shooters tools. If you want a challenge stickbow is it. All the rest are made to be easier. Technology is killing the sport. Set your ego aside and look at the big picture.

From: JTV
14-Feb-19
I do use one, plus a compound, I also use fixed heads and Mechanicals ... ..... the rests make it(CB) EASIER.... well there ya go ... guys use shooting sticks with these damn things, they can use BIPODS on these in the field ... they should NOT be in BOW seasons... keep these damn things in with the rest of the shoulder fired weapons .... the truth really hurts when it kicks YOU directly in the nads dosnt it ... these things are not hand held/hand drawn and are shot like rifls/slug guns and ML's, they are no where close to being a BOW ...... mic drop !!

From: RutnStrut
14-Feb-19
The Caldwell Field pod shown in JTV's pic can be used in the field. My handicapped hunting buddy uses one when hunting. He also has a version of it that is used in treestands, any treestand as it mounts to the tree.

From: JTV
14-Feb-19

JTV's embedded Photo
This is a BOW .... hand drawn/hand held and it is shot like a BOW
JTV's embedded Photo
This is a BOW .... hand drawn/hand held and it is shot like a BOW
JTV's embedded Photo
this is a BOW ... hand held/hand drawn and shot like a BOW ..
JTV's embedded Photo
this is a BOW ... hand held/hand drawn and shot like a BOW ..
JTV's embedded Photo
this is a RIFLE ... and is shot as a RIFLE, shoulder held... this one on a Tripod .....
JTV's embedded Photo
this is a RIFLE ... and is shot as a RIFLE, shoulder held... this one on a Tripod .....
JTV's embedded Photo
this is a crossbow ... it is shot like , well, like a RIFLE... shoulder held... this one is on a hunting TriPod/Bipod, crossbows are very easy to use off a rest from the ground or stand, unlike a handheld/hand drawn BOW..
JTV's embedded Photo
this is a crossbow ... it is shot like , well, like a RIFLE... shoulder held... this one is on a hunting TriPod/Bipod, crossbows are very easy to use off a rest from the ground or stand, unlike a handheld/hand drawn BOW..
Which two are shot like BOWS.. hand held/hand drawn ...... which two are shot like RIFLES, shoulder held and can be shot from hunting tripods/rests/Bipods ??????

MIC DROP !!

From: Mnhunter1980
14-Feb-19
Minus the powder and lead, pretty close

From: Jake
14-Feb-19
JTV hold on to that Mic! LOL I personally have never used a rest to shoot a crossbow. For me it gets in the way. People with certain disabllities need them and God bless them for it. JTV you can get as excited or high as you want but your bucks are our bucks. Greedy much. And I am very happy that your running races and climbing mountains at your age but that is only you. Most people are just average Joe's wanting to hunt. Now breathe deep an calm down.

From: JTV
14-Feb-19
God, your such a looser ..... smh .... you need a bigger shovel to cover up all the crap you spew .... you can then use it to continue digging the hole you are in .... dodge, deflect, obfuscate... it is what you do .... I'm going to shoot my hand held/hand drawn BOW ... play nice now .... still smh .....

From: 40 yard
14-Feb-19
Jake, technology is not killing the sport of bowhunting. what's killing the sport of bowhunting is people like you that are trying to get a weapon that was never intended to be used in the bowhunting season to be included

From: Jake
14-Feb-19
40 Technology has already damaged bow hunting with the compound. You don't see it because your alright with it because it benefits you. Like I mentioned before, there is a reason why they do not separate stickbow harvests and compound harvests. The compounders shoot WAY MORE deer than the stick bow shooters but that is OK. I'm not going to go over how much compound have advanced since they started and how little to nothing has changed on the stick bow. Crossbows have just took it to another level and is doing the same thing that compounders did to the stick bow shooters. Now you can say that crossbows don't belong in the archery season at all. You may be right but I see serious greed from a oh so spoiled compounder that has gotten their way for some time now. If you want to be absolutely spot on, the stick bow shooter should have the rut because they are the true archery.

From: JTV
14-Feb-19

JTV's embedded Photo
JTV's embedded Photo
Bye .................

From: Jake
14-Feb-19
Jtv I did not expect to make friends here. To me your just a loud mouth wanting everything for you, you and you.

From: Bill Obeid
14-Feb-19
“I personally have never used a rest to shoot a crossbow.”

Personally , there are a bunch of guys still shooting compounds Without sights and using their fingers.

So then you can’t use that technology in an argument either.

Twist twist twist....

Again.. shoot whatever the hell makes you happy. But , don’t try to convince intelligent people a crossbow is “ just like a bow”.

And if you’re a crossbow shooter that’s what you are. Don’t call yourself an archer.

This country has a problem with being truthful..... and this all inclusive nonsense has gone too far. My God... girls are even joining Boy Scouts of America.

From: Jake
14-Feb-19
When you stop calling compounds bows instead of a piece of Technology that they were made for to make it easier then I will consider crossbows not bows.

From: 40 yard
14-Feb-19
Jake, have you ever killed anything with a stick bow, how about a compound how about a crossbow? Why not enlighten with your 50 years of experience?

From: xtroutx
14-Feb-19
Jake, I see your still at it. God, your life must be boring.

From: Jake
14-Feb-19
xtrout it is damn boring. Cabin fever is upon us.

From: JTV
14-Feb-19
Jake is being very disingenuous again I see ..... It is not the BOWhunters fault you're to ignorant to see what is in front of you ... you deflect, obfuscate, dodge and twist words around .. your BS dont cut it with BOWhunters ..... .... back to shooting my BOW -hand drawn/ hand held BOW .... btw, that shovel ^^ is for you... dig and spread away ....

From: Jake
14-Feb-19
40 I started with stick bow but only shot from what I can remember my first deer which was a doe and I believe a small eight pointer. Started with compounds with they came out because I really was not very good with stick bows. Damn hard to master. Compounds I shot a boat load of deer, one elk, one mountain lion, on antelope, one bear, three mulies. turkey, boar and a caribou. Crossbow several bucks and a two bear. I got sick in 2002 and thought that I would never hunt again but in 2005 I got a crossbow. Open my world to me again. I am now 67. This was all over a lifetime and did not mean to brag but you ask. Now pick it apart.

From: Jake
14-Feb-19
JTV when the world stops revolving around you come back.

From: Ambush
14-Feb-19
Jake, maybe you should troll the fly fishing sites with pics of live rigging frogs, minnows and worms. When they complain, tell them their pontoon boat sailed when they put reels on the cane poles. Tell them bait was first and most pure. That should help alleviate some of your boredom.

From: Jake
14-Feb-19
Naaaaaaay I like you guys.

From: JTV
14-Feb-19

JTV's embedded Photo
JTV's embedded Photo

From: Jake
14-Feb-19
God that is an old one. You can do better at that. Hard to believe that you are 61. You have the mine of someone much younger. Try to calm down. The sun will come up in the morning.

From: 40 yard
14-Feb-19
Jake, glad to hear that you were able to back to hunting in 2005 after your sickness with a crossbow. But the thing that can't figure out according to you there isn't ant difference between a compound and a crossbow, so why didn't you just go back to a compound, after all there is no advantage of a crossbow over a compound, according to you.

From: Jake
14-Feb-19
40 your putting words in my mouth. I never said that there is not a difference between compound and crossbow. I am saying that there is a big difference between stick bow and compound and that was OK till crossbow past compounders in kills. I am saying that compounds took way way more deer than the stick bows do every year and that was OK but now the crossbow is doing it to the compounders and they just can not have that. I am saying pot calling the kettle black.

From: Mnhunter1980
14-Feb-19
Minus the powder and lead, pretty close

From: CaptMike
14-Feb-19
Same Jake, different forum.

From: Mnhunter1980
14-Feb-19
Yup same discussion different place ;) enough snow, cold, hunting season is over for most of us , cabin fever is slowly setting in :( keep warm and busy we will get through as always.

Crossbow discussion is like a train wreck, it’s hard to pass by without a peek

From: South Farm
15-Feb-19
Is "Jake" a reincarnation of another pain in the ass that used to grace us with his almighty knowledge once upon a time. Hmm, I wonder??

From: happygolucky
15-Feb-19
South Farm, nah, that guy has his peeps on the WI board who serve as his personal parrots. He emails them and they post what he says on command. His emails still carry the same tone he always posted with. Most here still think he has an alt as he used to have many and sometimes even have them converse with each other in the same threads.

From: 12yards
15-Feb-19
We need to Jake-brake this thread! LOL.

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