Contributors to this thread:
Yes. I'm in the outfitter pool. Hopefully can draw.
I’m in the Outfitter pool but hope I don’t draw as I booked a Bighorn hunt for the dates I applied for! ??
I'm in...but as a nonresident, that doesn't mean much... :^(
Can't win if you don't play! If I draw the unit I want, it will be as good as a 20 PP unit in CO.........So why the heck not!
In as a non resident. Better chance of winning the Powerball, though!
I'm in but not optimistic.
My son made the mature decision he couldn't miss the week of school for the Youth Elk season this fall :( Hard to feel bad for him since he has drawn twice in three years!
But since we really love NM, he's putting in for Oryx during the Christmas break! We convinced mom this would be our 'warm winter getaway' if he gets drawn!
Negative.....have a good tag in hand.
Might still roll the dice in NV, though. :-)
Yeah, couldn't resist...even though I tried. Long odds, but you can't win if you don't play.
Curious as to why people think the odds are that terrible? Maybe I'm just optimistic. Especially with bow. I mean I wouldnt say they are good. The data I seen isnt that bad. Compare it to Pennsylvania elk and hell it's a shoe in. Lol
September already too busy, so sheep app only for me.
Mcadam, I'd say a lot of guys are applying for 6B, 55, and maybe the better Gila units. Those draw odds can be in the 1% range or less. But yeah other archery rut hunts you can get 3-8% odds in the unguided draw.
Im in. My odds of drawing are about 1.5%-10%-20%. I even put in a fourth option for a leftover tag. Probably still won’t draw ??
As far as odds go, I apply all over the West every year and have for several years. I’ve drawn NM Elk twice! I’ve never drawn anything else, so I don’t mind the NM odds...
Sitting out this year as I have something better on the schedule :0
Good luck guys NM really needs to cut back on outfitters and recognize the DIY NR more.
I hope I'm in....New Mexico charged my credit card $7917.00 the other day!
In as usual. elk as well as deer and pronghorn. Got the boy in on deer and pronghorn but no elk. After drawing last year not expecting to make it 2 in a row but u never know
I'm not spending the money on private ranch. I'm in for 15 13 17. Anybody ever hunt these??
In...are the results up yet? ;)
Since I'm a nonresident now, I'm going to pass this year. Need the money for the house we're building. Will try to build up my app fund enough to put in for a few critters next year.
I'm passing this year due to the licence fee being nonrefundable. Just not worth it due to the dismal DIY odds. Money much better invested elsewhere. NM #1 Outfitter welfare state. Just moved from IL to IN to escape the same entitlement mentality. Just different players.
nmwapiti. Build some areas in that house where you can hang future nm critters. Man must be a bummer seeing the NR side now when it's your stomping grounds.
I really don't need another elk tag but I am in for my normal 1 and only unit I apply for each year.
Good luck, Robb
Can you use one license for two years worth of draws like other states? TODDY
No have to buy a license each year this is the first year its non refundable.
Looks like the woods will be overrun by squirrel hunters or whatever the hell the license is that NR's had to purchase.
Barrera, yeah. Bummer to lose my mediocre draw odds and favorite haunts. Wife wanted to retire to Utah. I have lots of wall space in the garage for more antlers. Going to chase then in Wyoming and Montana this year. Hopefully put in for NM elk, deer, ibex and barbary next year.
I'm in.....Outfitters pool....fingers crossed.
$7917, are crazy????? That would make my house payment for a whole year.
Yea New Mexico is pretty proud of their critters! I didn't even apply for deer & it was still too expensive to tell my wife!
JusPassin, hiring an outfitter isn't cheap. Probably no more than any other state. The problem is the outfitter welfare in NM. Instead of letting fair market weed out unsuccessful business. Results in what you see now. Unfortunately I don't see it getting any better any time soon......
Can you explain this a little better trophyhill
Trophyhill is absolutely correct.
Still got another day to decide if I want to apply...Will be in AK for half of Sept so might apply for 15 in the ML seasons. I've been lucky to have a friend with a ranch there and have hunted 15 on LO tags 3 of the past 5 years, but have never been lucky enough to draw.
What's the matter with all you people? You were all supposed to drop out of NM now that they have the non refundable license fee. Don't let them take advantage of you like that. I want my draw odds to increase. ??. I'm in.
Lots of landowner welfare in NM too. Half the elk tags in the state go to ranchers before a single one is given to the public in the draw.
Between LO tags and outfitter tags NM has a system built around legalized crime. Awesome state and I love the random draw system they use, but it's too bad that system is applied only after screwing the common guy.
I agree with the two guys above.....NM is nothing but a welfare state for land owners and outfitters
I'm not arguing against that because I truly have no idea. However arent 84 percent of tags giving to residents???
i'm pretty sure the landowner tags have nothing to do with draw tags for public land
How can a unit wide LO tag that maybe given out for land that doesn't hold elk consistently have no effect of the amount of tags put into the draw for both residents and non residents. If they are not factoring there use then either they don't care about the resource or they are negligent.
Deadline is tomorrow guys. Your odds go way up if you wait until the last day!
Sadly, NM has become an absolute cash grab. Dissect the changes, all of the changes are to generate more revenue. More tags and better hunt dates for rifle.
Mcadam17: roughly 50% of the tags are handed out to landowners before the draw. Sometimes those tags are only valid on the private land but often they are valid for the whole unit. Then, the other 50% of the tags go into the draw where 84% of them go to residents, 10% to outfitters, and 6% go to non-residents.
Yup Elkstabber is correct. So in reality diy residents are applying for 42% and NR DIY are at 3% of the total elk tags.
I'm in...odds are between 4.2-9.4%, I've had worse...
I'm a newbie to NM as well. After I pulled the trigger on the app, I pretty much came to the conclusion that was a complete waste of cash. Make me buy a license with no chance to increase my odds in the future. First, could be my last...
With the new rules that were passed concerning EPLUS you won’t see much for garbage land that is enrolled in the system anymore. They have tightened it up. Plenty of the tags that get allotted to landowners don’t get converted into licenses. Look at the HH in 13, they get 120 bull and ES bow tags, not even counting the cow tags. Who is hunting that ranch?...even 20 guys? They need to take some marketing courses if they are trying to sell hunts because I can’t find info anywhere. Those elk find their way onto public...point is, not all landowners are greedy and not all those tags get used. Just means better numbers for the herds and more opportunity for the public eventually-in some cases.
How many LO UW tags are not converted?
I saw the overall number somewhere once and can’t find it now but was surprised it wasn’t even close to 100%. I don’t think I have seen it broken down by unit or RO/UW conversion.
Here’s an example of the greed. I offered a LO a small amount for a cow tag due to short notice, he declined. Later, after the fact, that tag was never converted.
Large ranches will only sell so many tags to maintain quality on the ranch. I know of a ranch in Chama that is outfitter leased for $40k (maybe more). I can’t imagine what how much the outfitter makes.
There are some real losers out there on a power trip for sure. I’ve met some great folks in NM and some human trash, what can you say...Karma is a real thing and it will come around. What did you offer and what unit?
Ok guys....let's get back on topic. Who else is in?
Couple hundo, short notice.. weekend only. 34. I really think he thought someone was gonna come out of the blue with $600 the Friday befor the hunt.
I’m in, but all gun Bc I Drew WY. If I were a NR I would’ve sat this one out
I’m in for the first time. Trying to get the first season. Than I’ll head to Montana. I’d love to hunt elk for 4+ weeks!-)
Yeah, are there really still guys out there that don't know about the Guide draw scam?
I'm in with lotto odds on the good units.
I'm in! Gotta be in to win!
New Mexico isn't perfect, but not one state out there is. everyone complains about every states draw! New Mexico is considered an opportunity state. There are No bonus points and tags go to the highest bidders. 84% of the tags go to residents. 10% to the outfitter pool and 6% to the general non resident pool. The outfitter pool is good or bad depending how you view it, but it gives people a chance to draw who really want to go hunting with an outfitter or who do not have time to scout on their own and want to hire help. There are some good and bad outfitters out there, but the bad ones go away quickly and if you do your homework you will find a reputable one.
The draw odds are tough and the unit wide LO tags are expensive. The reason for that is because the public apply and buy the tags for what the landowners are asking. If no one was buying tags then the price would be much lower, and if no one was applying the draw odds would be much higher!! outfitters don't just buy tags without having a client that is willing to buy them from him or her or they would all be broke. Non residents who want to pile on NM for being a bad state to apply for should probably look elsewhere to apply because it will free up tags for people that want to hunt there. Complaining about it isn't gonna help anything or anyone's situation.
Opportunity state? Head Scratching
Been applying for NM for years and have yet to land a tag. Granted, I only apply for HD tags. Until this year, the cost to apply was minimal, so I looked at the long odds much the same as playing the lottery....small investment offering a small chance of great reward.
Initially considered passing this year given the non-refundable license change. But then got thinking about the tag raffles for which I participate every year. Figured the NM small game license cost is comparable to the cost of a raffle ticket or two...and the draw odds are actually better than most raffles...so why not?
Do I like the NM tag system? Absolutely not.....especially for the DIY non-resident. That said, my desire to hunt a HD unit in NM apparently outweighs the negatives....because the application is done....again.
Good luck in the draw guys!
AZhornhunter - you just described Econ 101 and simple supply and demand concepts. Go figure...
Opportunity state means it is equal across the board with the same investment across the board for everyone. The initial investment is set to zero each year so there is no comparative advantage between others and years applied. The same opportunity exists each year regardless of how many years you've applied.
Maybe it should be called the equality state. It hard to have a "opportunity" at harvesting a animal with no tag.
I'm in for 3 long shots. Also in for Utah and already drew Wyoming. Gonna retire in 2 months so 2 or 3 elk draw tags would be manageable... :^)
AZhorn, because there are a number if very good things about NM doesn't mean that people can't take significant issue with other aspects of it. The LO and Outfitter allocated tags are downright criminal and should be viewed as an embarrassment by the NM G&F and the NM residents. IMO.
I’ve put in for AZ elk for 17 years straight at $160 non refundable tag cost and have never drawn a tag.... maybe next year. NM with no point system and before I lived in NM I drew elk 4 times and bought 3 LO tags it was some great hunting. My neighbor who gets 3 LO tags for his ranch has already started getting calls about his elk tags. Guys call from all over the country NY, PA, TX and CA so far. Some guys are going to sit home and bitch and some guys are going elk hunting in NM .
Jdee, I agree that some will piss and moan and some will actually do something. However, I don't believe sitting back and accepting one's beatings will ever result in change for the better. You may resign yourself to the current system and accept that it "is what it is", that's your right obviously. That doesn't mean others can't champion the cause for improvements to a messed up system, does it?
I'm going to bitch about the pieces of the system that are obviously broken. But I'm sure as hell going to elk hunt too!
Norseman, I think tomorrow...
Let’s just give everyone a tag, everyone makes the team....right ?
When is the actual drawing and when do you see if you drew?
Jdee, either you're not directing that to me or you are not on the same page as me at all.
BTW- shit no to both of your sarcastic comments! I don't believe in participation trophies and I understand supply and demand...
I agree that the LO tags are out of hand. That said I’m a landowner owner and I can only imagine if I my only option to help control the 100s of animals eating my crops or pasture was to let strangers hunt my property. For Ranchers with big properties it’s simple, they can lease the hunting rights to their 1000s of acres. The problem is that many have 100-500 acres. With land prices at 4K-10k per acre and your ten head of cows are sharing a pasture with 150 head of elk all winter it would get frustrating. I’ve talked to a handful of these people in SW New Mexico. They gladly let me hunt their property with my LO cow tag, the only way NR can hunt cows in NM. Killing a handfull of elk when your wintering 150 means nothing. If that landowner gets two bull tags to sell for $5500/bull than that helps them recover for the loss they suffer by wintering elk. I’m not saying there’s not better solutions but unless you want many LO’s slaughtering elk this is what you have to deal with. There are many places down there where landowners opted to not take the tags and instead get the state to put a high fence around the owners property to keep the “states” elk off. The elk lose winter ground and the state spends a lot of money putting up fence that could be used on wildlife. The part of it that chaps me is there are landowners down there that buy small parcels just big enough to qualify for tags. There’s not enough damage on 20 acres to warrant a tag unless it’s alfalfa that is getting murdered by elk. I don’t know all the answers but understand both sides of the equation. How would some of you guys feel if the solution to land owners gripes was to offer otc cow tags. Talk about limiting your opportunities at a big bull. I like N.M. because it’s not CO otc and will gladly tollerate some common sense landowner welfare.
Link, while you have a point and that's how and why it's supposed to work, the number of tags given out is not "some common sense landowner welfare." Part of the problem is that a LO tag in 52 is not worth what a LO tag in 16D is. If NM really wanted to reimburse ranchers for grass eaten, they'd sell these tags to the highest bidder and distribute the money to the ranchers on an equitable basis, based on how much of "their grass" is getting eaten by elk. And IMO, "common sense" doesn't mean giving 1/2 of the state's elk tags out when it's the hunters that are the ones footing the bill here. Even CO, who just expanded their system of LO welfare, still doesn't give out as many tags as NM.
"The LO and Outfitter allocated tags are downright criminal and should be viewed as an embarrassment by the NM G&F and the NM residents."
At least it's not as bad as Utah where the money is going directly into a private wildlife mafia's hands with zero oversight or transparency while a complicate DFW continues to award the contract to said mafia despite RMEF offering to do the same thing for free. Still, NM's system is ridiculously slanted towards LOs.
P.S. The quality of the hunt and the system of dividing up the tags are mutually exclusive. You can have the best or worst hunts with the best or worst system mixed in either way, so it's a non sequitur to say, "NM's system is dumb, but they have some good elk tags, so all is well." I agree with Scoot on this one.
It's a complex issue, which is why the perfect solution may never be found. But it is telling that my understanding is until the LO system was created, the number 1 complaint about property damage came from beavers. Now some ranchers are making more $ on elk than they ever did on cattle. Being able to overgraze your cattle on national forest at a pittance, while planting alfalfa on your property and drawing elk onto your land and then complaining that you need more elk tags is a flawed system.
A lot of people say "many of the big ranches don't even use all of their allocated cow tags...they care about elk". But IMO it simply shows that they really aren't all that interested in reducing the numbers of elk supposedly causing property damage. If that were the case they would welcome hunters onto their property to thin the numbers. Instead all they want is more bull tags, because that's where the $ is.
I don't know the answer. But I don't see the sense in a law that would allow only 6% of new cars can be sold to NR, but if you pay a broker work the deal you can buy 10% of them. Or why if NM is a FENCE OUT state, meaning if I don't want your cattle to wander onto my property and eat the grass I have to build a fence, that if you don't want elk on your property the State should build you a fence. Or why cattle can denude the vegetation and crap all over an acre surrounding a pond in my national forest but if an elk steps onto your property you should be compensated for it.
I sympathize with ranchers trying to make a living in NM. It's crappy habitat. It's dry. It takes 10-100 times the acreage to grow enough food to feed a cow as it does in other states that actually get rain. If it were me I wouldn't have chosen to be a rancher in NM in the first place. If I decide to be a coconut farmer here should I be given special treatment when the conditions aren't conducive to my success? It's not like the elk & deer weren't here long before ranchers.
But I digress...good luck to those of you who entered the draw...
I definitely agree it’s broken. I just don’t think we want otc cow tags or mass slaughter by landowners. I get that not all tags are valued the same but there aren’t many LO tags in 16D either. Like I said it’s not perfect by any stretch but I think it’s necessary. I also wasn’t implying the system is “common sense” as it is.
Agree Link. But the only reason "mass slaughter" is even an option is because of the broken Jennings Law, but that's another topic for another day...
Its a great System to disenfranchise the average hunter. Unfortunately that seems like its all to common theme in hunting
I think New Mexico and their system is the best in the world! No finer state than New Mexico and their management of big game species is above reproach!
Yes, I am groveling, and no, I have no pride when it comes to trying to get a NM elk tag.
Link excellent points and information (same for Carl and Ike). Just so I'm clear about one thing, I am definitely not anti land owner and land owner rights. As Carl mentioned, those folks are trying to do the best they can with what they have too. NM is awesome with tons of great people. I hope I can go back this year...
The one thing that is most abundantly clear to me from this thread is that Brotsky is one serious butt kisser! :)
Is that how he got his handle? BrotsKy...Butt Kisser
Best I can determine that non-resident elk chance for unit 51 where I apply is about 1 in 20.
Carl is wise in many ways
You might be right Carl, but no doubt you are wise in the more traditional sense too.