If the compound had never been invented?
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Contributors to this thread:
David A. 12-Apr-19
Ambush 12-Apr-19
David A. 12-Apr-19
DanaC 12-Apr-19
Jeff Durnell 12-Apr-19
skipmaster1 12-Apr-19
hawkeye in PA 12-Apr-19
David A. 12-Apr-19
trophyhill 12-Apr-19
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WV Mountaineer 12-Apr-19
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timex 12-Apr-19
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From: David A.
12-Apr-19
Would hunting be better or worse today?

From: Ambush
12-Apr-19
There'd just be more gun hunters and shorter seasons. But it wouldn't be better or worse, because you wouldn't no any different.

From: David A.
12-Apr-19
For Arizona elk, I recall longer seasons and much higher chances of getting drawn...of course the human population is higher now...not sure about hunter numbers adjusted for population growth.

From: DanaC
12-Apr-19
If not for the compound I suspect that bowhunting would be 5-10% of what it is today.

From: Jeff Durnell
12-Apr-19
Bowhunting would still be viewed as 'hunting the hard way' by bowhunters, the public, game commissions and lawmakers. Fewer technological aids would be used/permitted otherwise, in bow season at least. The greater challenge and lower harvest numbers would have allowed for more tags, longer seasons, and more opportunities for bowhunters than they have now.

From: skipmaster1
12-Apr-19
Yeah I agree with Jeff. There would be a lot more opportunities for Bowhunters to hunt. Less folks doing it with less success would probably allow any bowhunter to hunt any animal during archery season without worrying about draws and tag limitations. On the other hand maybe more guys would just be shooting stick bows and doing well with them. Once you put in the time to learn then properly, they are extremely lethal. The difference really only being distance. Most trad archers will max out around 30 yards for hunting accuracy and most compound archers max out at 60 yards.

12-Apr-19
Agree with Jeff also although I don't know if our numbers would have been big enough to lobby some of the nice changes PA has seen for the bow hunter Looking back it sure would have effected the hunting industry. ( And money talks:(

From: David A.
12-Apr-19
I'm NOT anti compound, but jeez I agree I think there would be longer seasons, much higher draw rates, and...maybe even bigger bucks and bulls (would depend on rifle numbers however). I think back in the 60's Arizona had month long elk seasons. In the 70s I drew the premiere unit 9 several times. It was nice, trust me...

From: trophyhill
12-Apr-19
I'd still be rifle hunting

From: Catscratch
12-Apr-19
Numbers wouldn't be different. The same people who bowhunt now would still be bow hunting. Recovery rates would be slightly lower and recurves would be shot with sites, a balancer, and a release. Same argument as with crossbows; they haven't brought new people in or ran people out... just shifted what's in their hand.

From: Bou'bound
12-Apr-19
Even less relevant that it is today in society.

12-Apr-19
Worse. There’d be no bow seasons.

12-Apr-19
Compounds were invented...... Their main impact was on hunting species other than whitetail deer, same as crossbows. I will let others be the judge, I am staying with my osage stickbow and cedar arrows.

From: Teeton
12-Apr-19
With the much low numbers of bow hunters. Does anyone think that the anti hunters would of had the seasons eliminated? Thiers strength in numbers.. I agree with what Jeff said, but how big would the bowhunting organizations be ? I belong to 3 state bowhunting orgs and when bowhunting comes under fire I just dont see many gun only hunters stepping up to help us out. I've actually got into arguments with gun only Hunters that stated that bow hunting should be eliminated or the seasons shortened.. Ed

From: Woods Walker
12-Apr-19
You wouldn't need to carry a toolbox with your hunting gear. You could never forget your release because it's attached to you, and your bow arm wouldn't have to be larger than your drawing arm from carrying twice the weight around. And breaking a string wouldn't end a day's hunt, just a 2 minute interruption.

From: Glunker
12-Apr-19
Local archery clubs in WI had healthy memberships during the 60'sand 70's before compounds. I miss that era. Sure membership went higher as new bowhunters were in awe of compounds. State bowhunting licenses went way up as compound became common and refined. My impression is many local clubs have vanished or are greatly less attended now. Part of that is the xbow but that is not what this thread is about.

From: timex
12-Apr-19
a little off topic but for the life of me iv never understood the separation between trad & compound. I use both the trad bow for ground hunting & compound for stand hunting just like different guns for different types of hunting or situations & the same can be said for fishing as well except for a few flyrod only elitist. so why in archery is it almost chiseled in stone that your on one side of the fence or the other ???????

From: dgb
12-Apr-19
Politically we all benefit from more hunters and I think compounds have gotten a lot of people out who otherwise wouldn't hunt at all. So if that premise is true, there would be fewer hunters and greater opportunities for those who would hunt . . . but . . . only if the politics allowed us to continue to hunt. I think the antis would have us in their sights.

12-Apr-19
If compounds were never invented, we wouldn't be posting to Bowsite right now. The popularity of archery is due to the invention, development, and fine tuning of the compound bow. As Ed pointed out above, compound hunters have swelled the ranks of state and national bowhunting organizations. You think the P&Y Club would have the members it would now, if not for the compound guys? I have all the respect and admiration for the stickbow, longbow, selfbow guys here. You do it the hard way, and I commend you. The bows and arrows you make are nothing short of works of art, and perhaps one day I will find that itch to see what all the trad fuss is about. With that being said though, it is as simple as this..... modern traditional archers made bowhunting a fun hobby....compound archers made bowhunting relevant.

From: APauls
12-Apr-19
If I wanted to stir the pot I'd say with current human's sensitivities they would have outlawed bowhunting due to wound rates lol.

From: Surfbow
12-Apr-19
^this

From: duvall
12-Apr-19
if it wouldn't have been for compounds I wouldn't be a traditional shooter today

From: Buck Watcher
12-Apr-19
Most of us would be using recurve crossbows.

From: elkstabber
12-Apr-19
If the compound had never been invented there would be several well-known variations of the STAR shooting method.

12-Apr-19
I think bow hunting would not even be close to existing in most areas. Unless you had a strong state organization and support of hunting, you may have a few weeks if you are lucky......

As a long bow shooter, I believe that the compound was the best thing to happen to bow hunting, in some ways, not all, but in many........ as for doing it the hard way, well no one said, you can not use a stick bow, so whats the issue

I am glad that we had Allen and Jennings

From: jjs
12-Apr-19
The cost of NR tags would be inexpensive and the lottery would be very short or non-issue, access to the state hunting would be non-restrictive.

No doubt there would be more access to private land to hunt and leasing would not be an issue.

Public land bowhunting would be excellent just like back in the 60-70s, be very little hunting pressure, only a pass dream now.

The archery clubs would be stronger with more involvement from members as in the pass, bowshops and archery lanes would still be around.

There wouldn't be a x-bow factor that was brought in by the compound development . Diffidently would separate the serous bowhunters from the casuals, but pandora's box has been open and there is no going back, too bad. Still remember well what it was like before compounds and it was a better hunting experience time.

From: Timbrhuntr
12-Apr-19
They would all be shooting crossbows instead ha ha ha !!!

From: Ambush
12-Apr-19
jjs, you could say exactly all the same things about gun hunting. NOTHING now is like it was in the 1950's!

Everything looks different with "Small Picture" thinking.

From: 12yards
12-Apr-19
"Most trad archers will max out around 30 yards for hunting accuracy and most compound archers max out at 60 yards."

Totally disagree with these numbers for averages unless you are talking about western hunters. For whitetails it's mostly 30 yards and in for most guys for an average I'm betting. I don't even know an archery compound hunter that has killed a whitetail at 60 yards.

From: 12yards
12-Apr-19
I think bag limits would be no different than they are today. Gun seasons would keep numbers down just like they do today. Gun season is the great lawn mower. Just because there would be way fewer bow hunters doesn't equate to more animals running around.

From: jdbbowhunter
12-Apr-19
Would certainly be a lot less bowhunters, which is not good. Bowhunter #s are decreasing with the compound bow. Cant imagine what #s would be without it. A small % may pickup tradition bows, but I doubt it in todays society. IMO.

From: Highlife
12-Apr-19
Id be using mw crossbow. No worries lol

From: jjs
12-Apr-19
The post should be 'who would be bowhunting without the compound', that would give a more precise answer.

From: Ziek
12-Apr-19
"Fewer technological aids would be used/permitted otherwise,..."

Not even close. Before compounds, some/many recurve shooters we're already attaching sights and draw stops to their bows. Materials and designs were improving. There is a recurve design featured in the last TB mag that reaches full draw weight early, and stays constant through full draw - WITHOUT CAMS. Without cams, bows would have continued to develop. I've even seen recurves shot with releases. The compound bow was actually what was responsible for the throwback to a simpler style. It created a backlash that spurred the divide. Without it, we would have high-tech recurves and lower tech recurves and we would be essentially where we are now.

From: peter.p
12-Apr-19
if the compound have never been invented....jim shockey wouldve ruled the world shooting some world record unnamed species with his benjamin airbow all bug eyed on high dose adderall. go jim, you got this

From: 2 Points
12-Apr-19
I doubt you would see longer seasons. Rifle hunters have gotten tired of waiting years for a tag so, they are taking to archery to be able to hunt. So, whether it is compound or trad, there would be competition for the archery tags. Unit 9 is still a great unit, just not as prevalent as before.

From: skipmaster1
12-Apr-19
12 yards. Here in NY most of the guys I know are confident out to 60 yards with a compound but most probably keep shots on deer around 30-40 max. With a trad bow most are confident out to 30 but usually keeps shots 20 and under. I know guys that those ranges might be half but also know a lot of guys that shoot a lot and shoot much further than that. My average with accompound over 100’s of deer is probably 40 yards and 20 yards with a stick bow. But I’ve killed them out to 80 with wheels and 36 with a longbow. I prefer them right at where my average distance is though.

These numbers might not be a average for just once in a while average shooters but the guys I know (and I know a lot of them) get coaching, shoot leagues in the offseason and shoot a lot and it’s pretty average amongst those type of shooters.

From: HeadHunter®
12-Apr-19
Social Media and compounds have 'ruined' bow hunting (as we knew it) . It became all about money & profit for the manufacturers & State Wildlife Agencies & SOCIAL MEDIA outlets ..... and that has ruined what many so loved.... Bow Hunting (in it's truest since)! It is sad where we are still heading today ......... (jmho)

From: Ambush
12-Apr-19
Headhunter, you should qualify your statement by saying “it has ruined YOUR kind of bowhunting for YOU”.

MY bowhunting is just fine for ME.

From: Dale06
12-Apr-19
I doubt I would be a Bowhunter without a compound bow. But will never know for sure.

From: Bou'bound
12-Apr-19
the great thing about compounds is you don't have to use them

the great thing about technology overall is you don't have to use it

the great thing about social media is you don't have to participate

the great thing about TV hunting is you don't have to watch it

the great thing about hunting the way it was done 50 years ago is still available to people who want to do it that way.

the great thing about money is you don't have to keep it, others will gladly take it off your hands if you'd prefer to not be tied to it.

so many great things about hunting.

12-Apr-19
Mule deer, elk, antelope, bear and whitetial tags would be over the counter in every state

Moose, mountain goats, sheep and other species would be drawable

Plain and simple

From: Ziek
12-Apr-19
"... most of the guys I know are confident out to 60 yards with a compound..."

I doubt that's true if you take away their rangefinder, which has nothing to do with the compound bow anymore than a recurve with sights.

"the great thing about hunting the way it was done 50 years ago is still available to people who want to do it that way."

That's also not true, unless you know how to reduce the human population in general and the bowhunting population in particular, at the same time. Like most things, the base cause of conflict is too many people competing for a limited resource. May as well get used to it. It's only going to get worse, a lot worse when all our coastal cities are underwater, and all those folks flee inland. ;-)

From: Jaquomo
12-Apr-19
+1 bou and ziek.

Headhunter, I find it somewhat ironic that you come on social media to complain about social media. Heck, I can hunt 100 or more days a year with a selfbow if I want. With a few exceptions, game is more plentiful and bowhunting more accesible today than ever. The compound didn't ruin anything. Population growth has ruined many aspects of our lives and bowhunting allows us to escape much of that, irrespective of whether our bow has wheels or an engineered recurve carbon-fiber limb-riser design.

From: DL
12-Apr-19
I wish lions and wolves hadn’t been invented.

From: elkstabber
12-Apr-19
I remember when sex was safe and NASCAR was dangerous.

From: skipmaster1
12-Apr-19
Ziek- I agree that is with a rangefinder but even with a rangefinder most can’t do that with a stick bow. Compounds and no rangefinder is tough after 40/45. We see that at 3D shoots.

From: 12yards
12-Apr-19
Skipmaster1, your average for 100 deer is 40 yards?! Wow, do you hunt a lot of field edges? I've shot between 50 and 60 and my average is around 15 yards with a compound. But that's the distance of shot I set up for. The P&Y records of shot distance for whitetails would agree with my results.

From: skipmaster1
12-Apr-19
12 yards. We have a lot of very open woods. With a compound I feel incredibly comfortable with 40 yards, wide open on a relaxed deer, so I usually take that shot. I find less chance of them getting jumpy because they get near my ground scent or catch movement. I used to keep track of all my distances but stopped a long time ago. It’s probably 200+ deer by now. I’ve been hunting a lot more with Trad gear so more and more of my stand sights are set up for closer shots these days. If you figure the overall average is much closer, then the gap between trad and compounds shrinks to almost nothing. In fact at close range, I give the edge to the stick bow.

From: Single bevel
12-Apr-19
Compounds have put a major dent in access. Before bowhunting became a product of credit cards and Walmart, access to private land was easy.

From: Ziek
12-Apr-19
With or without a rangefinder, most "traditional" guys shouldn't shoot that far. But the ones I know that are competent, have killed out to about 50 yards. In any case, virtually no one is a CONFIDENT shot past 50 yards, unless you take the first step in shooting with sights - determining the distance - out of the equation. In other words, they cheat. They substitute electronics for what should be, and used to be, a skill. And without the range finder, MAX distance with any bow is about the same, and as it should be.

From: JTV
12-Apr-19
no compounds.... I'd still be BOW hunting .... I dont believe in 'ifs' ... it either happened or didnt ... in this case it did .. its the damn crossguns (crossbows, or those "damn things" ) I worry about

From: timex
12-Apr-19
head hunter I can still go to the same mountain I hunted 40 years ago & hunt the EXACT SAME WAY I did 40 years ago the only difference is back then it was buck's only untill the last 12 days & you got 3 deer total now it's unlimited doe's what the heck is the problem

From: timex
12-Apr-19
I'm new here but iv been on the leather wall for years & just couldn't stand the elitism soap box high horse riding chest thumpers any more. to me (TRADITIONAL VALUES) have nothing to do with which weapon or type of fishing rod one chooses but rather staying out of the grocery store. killing game growing vegetables raising chickens fishing canning all the above. living like our ancestors as much as possible. that's what it is to me. not thumping your chest cause ya shoot a trad bow & buying dinner at food lion to eat in your condo

From: ahunter76
12-Apr-19
I used Longbows/recurves 20 years b/4 compounds took over in the mid 70s. Numbers of everything (hunters, tags, Animals) is something we will not really know. I DO think the compound increased out bowhunters but hunters were increasing along the way b/4 them. Personally, I've been blessed with well over 100 assorted Biggame & my average is a little under 25 yds including 38 with recurves. I have a handful over 40 yds (compound) & 1, my longest, a whitetail Buck taken at 55 yds with a 55# recurve, pass thru & dropped in 30 yds in 1965.. I do a lot of field shooting& see a wide variety of archers. I definitely see a difference in accuracy after 40 yds for a large majority & in my opinion, many compound shooters that sling an arrow at 60 yds or more should not..

From: Jeff Durnell
12-Apr-19
60 with a compound and 30 with a stickbow, aye? Hmm, the math in that says it's 2,826 yd/sq with a stickbow and 11,304 yd/sq for the compound. So, twice the effective distance equates to 4 times the shot opportunities. Interesting. And yet more reason to use my selfbow.... and I ain't shooting no 30 yards.

From: Dale Hajas
12-Apr-19
If there were no compound bows:

The origin of the true first exclamation of success would be known....

Ishi to saxton after one of Ishi's routine head shots on a ground squirrel at 30 yards: "Me smoke um" :)

From: stagetek
12-Apr-19
The word "traditional" as it pertains to archery would not exist !

From: RogBow
12-Apr-19
Heck, just ban release aids and see how many people jump ship.

From: skipmaster1
12-Apr-19
Jeff Durnell, you might have more distance covered with a compound but that doesn’t necessarily equate to more shot opportunities. I’ve killed a bunch of deer with a longbow/recurve that I wouldn’t have with a compound. In close thick cover, a trad bow has the advantage.

From: Buglmin
12-Apr-19
Without the invention of the compound, you'd still be shooting wood or aluminum arrows, wouldn't have the number of broad heads there is today, and you wouldn't have fastflight or the other blends of no stretch strings. I got to hunt with a guy last year, bragging and saying how many deer he killed with a stickbow. After a few days of being around him, I started to wonder how he ever got the number he claimed. Made me wish he'd pick up a compound with sights...

12-Apr-19
Does advancing technology impact access, or point creep?

From: Spookinelk
12-Apr-19
The average guy would be better at shooting stickbows??? More sighted recurve shooters??? Bowhunting was gaining popularity rapidly even before compounds so I'm guessing many of us would still be bowhunting.

From: Bowhunter
12-Apr-19
I have been sitting at home watching YouTube videos all night for the last 2 months( shoulder surgery sucks!!) I can’t even tell you how many videos I have seen of people shooting way past 70, farthest was 108. Even seen a guy grab his buddies bow he had never shot, and “smoke” a buck at 75 yards. So I would say things would be better for sure!! We have to quit ignoring the massive changes in bowhunting in the last 25 years!! I feel it ironic that we can hate the crossbow when the compounds are doing just as muck damage out west! I mean what is the range on a crossbow? And you need a rest to shoot one? Never shot one but I doubt they can shoot any farther than 108!

From: HeadHunter®
13-Apr-19
I quit bow hunting (all I did) about 9 years ago when I had my 'stroke'! Oh I can still shoot, but for some reason I lost the desire 'to kill' ..... been shooting a bow for 65 years and that is all I lived for. Besides too many 'hunters' and loss of hunting spots (locally) and Game & Fish ruining our hunting because of the almighty dollar. The Industry and all companies evolved to 'sell items' for profit turned me off! Social Media has been a big factor also. ....So enjoy folks and I'm just sad most of you won't know what I'm talking about. ...I was blessed I guess, because I never seen another bow hunter in all my years till about 1976 when I ran into ONE guy in the national forest timber ..... and we were the only ones bow hunting we both knew of ..... We are still Best of Friends today even though 250 miles away from each other .... (he about 75 now & me 70 soon) and he still bow hunts everyday of a 90+ day season! ..........

From: David A.
13-Apr-19
Lot of comments about how we wouldn't seasons, etc. Any of you guys hunt in the 60s and 70s out west? If I recall correctly elk season in AZ was a full month and odds of getting drawn for bull in most units was very high compared to today...Now it's a fraction of that.

I believe AZ commissioners have decreased the time allotted to hunt because they were upset at the every increasing success rates of bowhunters. My experience is that hunting in AZ has gotten worse because of these reason. Somewhat similar with deer.

13-Apr-19
I’m confused. Compounds increase participation. Limiting opportunity according to most of the trad bow elites. However, none of are considering the influence money and rifle tags have had in shorter bow seasons.

DNR’s set their management schemes up to fit their niche in the market. Arizona’s seasons are broke up and short due to capitalizing on the demand for their elk. That they’ve created. Not compound bows.

People complain and say states need to mimic another because they have better trophy potential. It’s stupid to think that all states would have the same draw to hunters as others. So, why manage it that way? That goes for elk hunters whining about CO otc opportunity’s to WV deer hunters.

Survival and best success means hashing out your own path. And, creating demand for what you offer. So all this talks about the way it used to be or, the way a state does it versus another doesn’t make a lot of sense.

Bow hunting would be dead without the compound. No way around it. There’s not enough of us to garner the special seasons and, gun hunters would have long ago out lobbied for our prime season dates. It’d be gone. You can take that to the bank.

From: Boreal
13-Apr-19
I miss the good old days when archery manufacturers didn't care about profits. Sheesh!

From: timex
13-Apr-19
wv mountaineer has it right. the ones that use the most of a resource get allotted more of that resource when it comes time to devide up the pie so to speak. Iv lived on the eastern shore of VA for 19 years & have met (1 one) trad bow shooter in that time. without the compound bow hunting opportunity would be less not more

From: Catscratch
13-Apr-19
Just remember... in 30 yrs bowhunters will be defending crossbows for saving bowseason.

I still maintain people would have used the recurve as a platform for all the junk that has found it's way onto compounds. If compounds hadn't been invented recurves would be covered up with light gathering sites, peeps, no torque grips, releases, draw stops, etc. I think the average guy who picked up a compound due to their drive to be a little different than the average rifle guy would has still had that same drive to pick up a recurve.

13-Apr-19
If that was the case catscratch, compounds would never have been invented.

From: 1boonr
13-Apr-19
If compounds weren’t invented the same percentage of guys who kill consistently now with compounds would be killing with recurves or longbows. Also the same guys who use the fact that they didn’t kill anything because they are traditional would not be able to use that for an excuse for being a poor hunter. Also, these same guys wouldn’t be able to claim to be better than anyone else because they are traditional

From: ELKMAN
13-Apr-19
Far better from my point of view.

From: timex
13-Apr-19
iv argued on the leather wall for years just how TRAD is a full blown Olympic rig compared to a basic compound flipper rest & pins or not shot with fingers. but it will never end. if it's got wheels on it it's not a real bow.

From: Teeton
13-Apr-19
For those that talk about the go old days of bowhunting back in the 60's and 70's, how big was the anti hunt groups back then?

I'm sure compounds changed bowhunting, seasons and so on. I also think that the high numbers of bowhunters kept the sport of bowhunting alive. I'm pretty sure if states that can't trap had 100000 trappers their still be trapping.

Posts in this thread show me the selfishness of some hunters. They would love to see less hunters so theres more for them. Ed

From: HeadHunter®
13-Apr-19
^^^^ is Bow Hunting 'really' a Sport? ... and WHY does one see it as that? .... just curious!

From: Jaquomo
13-Apr-19
"Sport", "pursuit", whatever, its semantics. That some see it as a sort of religion is no different than animal rights activists worshiping animals. Others want to call it a "lifestyle", which is fine if you want your lifestyle to revolve around your sport. There are people who's entire lives revolve around golf, but that doesn't mean golf gets elevated above "sport" either.

From: Jake
13-Apr-19
I believe that if compounds were never invented the sport of bowhunting would be just a fraction of what it is people wise. It gave archery a big shot in the arm. Similar to what the crossbow is doing now. Is it good or bad. Really hard to say but time will tell.

From: HedgeHunter
13-Apr-19
Jeff Has it correct. For the guys good enough to kill large game with a Trad bow, season lengths would not matter. Hunting with ML hunters makes it just as hard as hunting with wheelie kickstand bows My four freezers are never empty.

Little Wheels go on scootees and skateboards.

HH~

From: Bou'bound
13-Apr-19
How sad a situation that any activity of any kind becomes all someone lives for.

13-Apr-19
Not big on “woulda, coulda, shoulda”. If the wheel, if the combustion engine, if the interstate system, ad nauseum, hadn’t been invented, would hunting be better? Would hunting be better if the internet and gps hadn’t been invented? Damn straight! As the saying goes, it is what it is. There ain’t no going back, and I’m not wasting energy wishing it would.

Most successful hunters adapt and still kill the critters they pursue.

From: HedgeHunter
13-Apr-19
Eat or be eaten.

Hard Way or No Way

You are what ya eat!

Hedge~

From: Matt
13-Apr-19
What if traditional elitism never existed?

From: HedgeHunter
13-Apr-19
Its a choice. The hard way for those who can or put a kickstand in yer rig.

All good, meat grills the same from death by hemmorage.

Hedge~

From: Thornton
13-Apr-19
There would be no corn feeders, or vast amounts of land leased by elitist compound hunters.

From: HedgeHunter
13-Apr-19
Never seen any of the large game animals iv’e killed with a hunk of wood off my place notice if the arrow was doing 125fps or 330fps.

Just takes hella better hunter to do it with branch of wood.

Hedge~

From: rodb
13-Apr-19
There would be fewer "GADGETS" for sure. Fewer hunting videos and probably fewer outdoor channels. Fewer people trying to make a living videoing a kill. Fewer companies trying to sell gadgets. Fewer people involved in the archery but I think it would have survived.

From: HedgeHunter
13-Apr-19
Sometimes less is far more!

HH~

From: David A.
13-Apr-19
"If compounds hadn't been invented recurves would be covered up with light gathering sites, peeps, no torque grips, releases, draw stops, etc."

I think you would have just a bit of that, but mechanical releases and draw stops, for example don't work well with trad bows. Nothing high tech about peeps or various grips. You would have a percentage using very modern recurves, but the tech. invasion would be limited. You wouldn't see many Olympic type of recurves in elk or deer camp.

From: David A.
13-Apr-19
"What if traditional elitism never existed?"

Well, that's separate topic and I don't particularly like trad. elitism. Anyway, it has had no effect on success rates or how game commissioners decide seasons.

Some argue bowhunting seasons would be more limited, blah blah. I think they have it entirely backward. I believe seasons would be more liberal and less crowded as they were in the 60s and 70s. It was great to know you had a month to hunt elk and a 70 percent chance of getting drawn for bull vs. a 5 per cent chance. Good grief, what a difference it was and you didn't see so many elk camps and hunters afield. That has all been eroded, at least in AZ.

13-Apr-19
I agree with David A, I am old enough to have witnessed it all. I have been traditional since before it was traditional, I do not believe that makes me an elitist.

From: Mnhunter1980
13-Apr-19
I would have tried a recurve 20 years ago if compounds weren’t around. So for me alone it would have been a good thing. I enjoy practicing again, instead of something I have to to.

From: timex
13-Apr-19
an elitist could be perfectly explained by the last few hedge hunter posts on this thread. it sounds like he's a very good trad bow shot but to me he's an even bigger braggert which I absolutely despise. soapbox high hoarse chest thumpers SUCK. if you enjoy trad go for it but to demean another's choice of equipment is an immature asinine thing to do. I have been killing more deer than almost anyone I know for close to 40 years but I keep my mouth shut about it. ant lastly if it wasn't for the grocery store trad bow sales would be in the gutter I can guarantee you that

From: timex
13-Apr-19
in my neck of the woods accomac Northampton Loudon & fauquier countys VA there is a overabundance of deer especially doe's and I guarantee you that if the bow season kill from the 1st sat in Oct till the first sat in Nov was not high enough they would give muzzleloaders more time in Oct. something y'all old timers are not taking into consideration is back in the good old days yes there were a lot less hunters & a lot less deer as well. it's gone from 2 or 3 deer per season to unlimited. heck in Loudon county VA you can kill doe's from Sept till may no daily bag limit 7 days a week but the compound has rouined your hunting. (REALLY)

From: Boreal
13-Apr-19
Selfbow shooters would look down on longbow shooters who would look down on recurve shooters.

From: Jaquomo
13-Apr-19
Hedge Hunter must be pretty amazing. I've never known anyone to kill so many big animals with a stickbow, and we don't even know what he's killed. But it must be a LOT of giants of all NA species! Wow! Congratulations on your awesomeness! Must be exciting to be you!

Hang on... my rotary dial party line phone is ringing... its the Leatherwall calling for Hedge Hunter.... they want their Rock Star back.....

From: Ambush
13-Apr-19
If Ishi had a compound, he wouldn’t have been found starving.

From: David A.
14-Apr-19
If the compound had never been invented, maybe expandables wouldn't have been invented or at least popularized either...hehe

From: Owl
14-Apr-19
In VA, without the compound**, archery would be "allowable" gear nested inside expanded firearms seasons. There would just not be enough participants to be a relevant management tool/ political force. That may be different in limited resource, draw-tag states but in an OTC multi-tag state, tackle has to keep up with management goals. And, frankly, that's the way it should be.

**I presume, in this theoretical scenario, the crossbow is not on the market, either. If, it were, however, in the absence of the compound, crossbow sales would nearly replace compounds.

14-Apr-19
Crossbow sales are replacing compounds.

From: Kevin Dill
14-Apr-19
Worse.

.

You know....I personally think there's a very good chance that bowhunting would be illegal in several states, if it weren't for the compound bow's success. The 'trad' resurgence is absolutely a reaction to mechanical bow technologies. Easy to predict that bowhunting would never have experienced the phenomenal growth which happened after the compound assumed dominance. With relatively few bowhunters (due to real or perceived difficulty of success with a bow), there's no doubt in my mind that bowhunting would've been very vulnerable to liberal legislation eventually eliminating it in some states.

In Ohio, the archery season accounts for about half the total deer kill annually. Take compounds and crossbows out of the picture (as in 'never invented') and what would we have? Much longer firearms seasons with an emphasis on keeping the deer herd managed. Bowhunters here would have less bow-only days in the woods, and likely have to share the important rut period with gun users. The compound bow (and by extension the crossbow) made archery season an important part of deer management here and in other states.

I drove a compound a couple years back in the '80s....liked it too. I just like a stick-bow better for the challenge it provides. Nothing more. I'm glad the compound was invented, just as I am the cell phone. Both might be a pain in my ass at times, but the good far outweighs the bad.

Is someone here wearing a MBGA hat?

From: Bou'bound
14-Apr-19
It would be shortsighted to discount hedge hunters skills and experience level he could be one of the most well-known and skilled traditional bow hunters of all time. His name is listed as smag snag In his profile so he is possibly making up that name to keep his true identity a secret.

From: Catscratch
14-Apr-19
Not trying to be argumentative, but I don't see it they way most of you do. I think it's human nature to strive towards the "best available". I think every one of you on here would have grabbed a stickbow of some sort if the compound hadn't have been invented, and you all would still be bowhunters (At least I like to think most of you would still have been drawn towards archery even if it was a little harder. Maybe I'm giving too much credit though :( ). And... after 30+ years of bowhunting I know that bowhunters trick things out. There is no reason to chase the flagship models every year and spend $600 on arrows other than a need to modify and trick out. In the absence of compounds you guys would have still picked up the next best thing, and you would have tricked it out. Imagine what a recurve would look like if the last 40 years of tech was poured into them instead of compounds. I guarantee there would be very easy shooting stickbows!

I don't drive a Ferrari because I don't have one available. Just because I don't have one doesn't mean I gave up on driving completely. I still have faith that almost everyone who was drawn to the compound would have been drawn to the stickbow in their absence.

From: HedgeHunter
14-Apr-19

HedgeHunter's embedded Photo
HedgeHunter's embedded Photo
I parked my wheels in 1981. Never liked em much. Like running a sewing machine or end mill to me. I picked it up once in 2004, I think blew the dust off, new string. Was a 1980 Browning shot some 2D field silhouette with it. Still have it in the shed or barn somewhere on a kickstand or nail.

Just like to feel a string on my fingers I reckon?

HH~

From: timex
14-Apr-19
Loudon co va is a unique situation it's the wealthiest county it the United States. lots of horse farms 5+ acres high dollar Holmes & very limited hunting access & most That do hunt there trophy hunt think about getting access I'm a peice next to a 700 acre horse farm that hasn't allowed hunting for 20 years .....around 13-14 years ago Loudon opened the month of September to archery only doe's only. 4 or 5 years ago they changed it to ANY LEGAL WEAPON the month of Sept & no daily bag limit. I'm blessed to have a friend that owns a farm in London co. but this is a perfect example of even with compounds & x bows the kill #s were still not enough & guns were allowed the month of sept

From: HedgeHunter
14-Apr-19

HedgeHunter's embedded Photo
HedgeHunter's embedded Photo
We have same problem with Rams where my son lives. Hard to kill with Waiwi selfbow but we get it done. Just don't feel the same with twin strings and triggers. If I need to eat, feed a lot of babies I might grab the old cable wheelie bow again.

HH~

From: Ambush
14-Apr-19
Hard to tell if HH actually wants folks to believe he shot all those sheep or if he loves trolling murky water.

From: Shrewski
14-Apr-19
This is quite entertaining.

From: Catscratch
14-Apr-19
I don't know if HH shot all those sheep or not, but it is a very cool pic!

From: timex
14-Apr-19
perhaps he hasn't taken his meds ? on bowsite busting on compounds..... I thouroly enjoy shooting trad bows & currently have 6 or 7 of em & iv killed a bunch of deer with em over the years but I can't not shoot one for a month & pick one up & shoot it well. I love to offshore fish just as much as hunt & some of the best fishing is in the fall. so often times for me I grab the bowtec but I do usually kill a deer or two with the trad bow each year except last year Oct was miserablely hot & I still had venison in the freezer it's the 1st season in 38 I didn't kill a deer with a bow of either kind

From: HedgeHunter
14-Apr-19

HedgeHunter's embedded Photo
HedgeHunter's embedded Photo
Thats a lot of I’s in there.

Yep, thats right they are much more challanging. Although, any game that gets within 15-20ydrange is a trophy.

those who build & shoot IBO SB Class know me.

If the compound was never here Would be OK. Brought lots of folks into Archery.

Started in 73 with a stikbow and recurve.

If the need for a faster, lighter bow arises I just make one.

Selbow at 35lbs with 550grn arrow doung 115-120fps kill most anything we wanna eat.

Tenn Two man champs 2018

HH

From: Jaquomo
14-Apr-19
If the coumpound had never been invented, no one would still care who HedgeHog is.

From: Silverback
14-Apr-19
I don't know the answer to your question. I use longbow,recurve,compound and crossbow. The only two things that I have heard that pissed me off is compound shooters referring to their bows as a stick and string and doing it the hard way

From: HedgeHunter
14-Apr-19
Did not you were still around here or LW Lou.

HH~

From: lawdy
14-Apr-19
We had bow seasons before compounds. There would be less bowhunters, more animals in my opinion. I have hunted deer with a longbow since 1958 or so. I remember the bow seasons here before tree stands, which I don’t use, baiting, ditto, and fancy camouflage, ditto again. Very simple hunting and fun. Everyone was a ground hunter back then, and baiting was illegal. Technology has really changed both black powder hunting and bowhunting. Shows that no matter what we invent, a deer’s instincts usually win

From: timex
14-Apr-19
lawdy you are correct & wrong yes there would be a LOT MORE ANIMALS and bow season would be shortened so gun hunters could controll the herd

From: timex
14-Apr-19
I really admire y'all old timers yearning for the good old days but the fact is that in almost every state in the nation the deer population is considerably higher now than I was 40 years ago around the time compounds got going then inline muzzleloaders & rangefinders & now crossbows & after all this weapons advancement the heard has grown... imo the biggest hunt these days is finding a good place to hunt. & not with which weapon you use to the place with

From: David A.
15-Apr-19
Yes, and elk herds have grown too so the irony is seasons are shorter and odds of getting drawn are way lower. I know for a fact AZ Fish and Game cutback on our time afield because they felt archery success resulted in few bulls. More hunters as bowhunting elk became more popular and higher success rates, they felt the best choice was to reduce the season length so that's exactly what happened. With more hunters (year by year more and more compound bowhunters) the result was lower odds of getting drawn. It's much harder now for AZ residents to get drawn not to mention nonresidents.

Sure, in whitetail states the deer are more prolific and that trend may not be the same. It just varies from state to state and depends upon what game animal is being discussed. Nevertheless, with the tremendous growth rate in bowhunting due to the compound, minimal cost access to private lands as common in the East and South, became rarer and rarer for bowhunters.

From: JusPassin
15-Apr-19
As a kid in the sixties and early seventies I had access to nearly 2000 acres of fabulous white tail habitat. Today nearly all of it is leased to compound hunters from all over the country. The DNR loves the increased revenue, though God knows what they are doing with it.

From: 12yards
15-Apr-19
lawdy, I don't think there'd be more animals. What the compound shooters used to shoot, the gun hunters would just take. Which equals the same amount of animals out there. The thing that would change is there would be fewer guys in the woods during archery season. So there would be more animals per bowhunter during bow season.

From: BOHNTR
15-Apr-19
Without them our bowhunter numbers would be MUCH lower and our relevance (politically) would suffer dramatically. Be careful what your elitist attitude, David, will cause.

15-Apr-19
^^^^ Exactly

From: Jethro
15-Apr-19
Nothing like a thread where there is no wrong answer. Say anything, can't prove it or disprove it. How could anybody know what the world would be like if any piece of technology was not invented 40-50 years prior? The only thing that can be said with any certainty if the compound bow was not invented......there'd be no trad guys thinking they were special for choosing not to use wheels.

From: Teeton
15-Apr-19
" HeadHunter®13-Apr-19 ^^^^ is Bow Hunting 'really' a Sport? ... and WHY does one see it as that? .... just curious! "

Well I feel it's a sport, because I do it for relaxing and enjoyment. I don't need it for food, but I do eat what I harvest.. I play baseball, ski, for the same reasons. For me I also find that hunting is more physical on my body than baseball and skiing.. I don't get in shape to play them or find my heart rate getting high from them.. Do find my heart rate getting way up from hiking with my pack on, with 40 + lbs in it..

Headhunter, do you not feel it's a sport and if not what do you call it?

Ed

From: Catscratch
15-Apr-19
A sport is competitive in nature and governed by a set of rule for scoring to determine a winner. Games, activities, recreation, etc is somewhat fluid and generally for fun or relaxation. In those terms bowhunting could both be a sport and activity. Lots of guys score their bucks for the sake of beating others or "winning".

From: JTV
15-Apr-19
"Headhunter, do you not feel it's a sport and if not what do you call it?" ... I call it a lifestyle, its who/what I am.. a BOWhunter....... not a crossbowshooter/not a gun hunter, but a BOWhunter .. hand drawn/hand held BOWhunter .....

From: APauls
15-Apr-19
Anyone who thinks land access would be better is dreaming. The land problem is a population and development problem, as well as people realizing they can monetize access to hunting. That would have happened with or without any invention.

The key is not to think about "what if" something didn't happen. The key is to think about what will happen in the next 30 years and get ahead of the curve. In Canada that's a little easier, as population and land-wise we are about 15 years behind you guys. It's about time to start buying properties to lease them out in the future. It used to be illegal to pay for land access for the purposes of hunting here. I think that too, has changed.

From: David A.
16-Apr-19
Bohntr, I'm not an elitist. I'm just giving my opinion as to what happened. Don't shoot the messenger as the saying goes...I would also argue a major factor is simply human population growth...and it continues...were will it end?

As a teenager, I enjoyed an 18,000 acre ranch in S. Texas. Cost was $225/gun for 15hunters of which half mostly hunted quail. And it was year round...I took it for granted then, but I'll never forget it...

From: scentman
16-Apr-19
Was the crossbow around before the compound? just askin.

From: grape
16-Apr-19
"Takes a bit of a God complex to think anything I say or you say will significantly impact how any of us think, hunt, vote, worship, manage money, treat our spouses and kids, etc. " That is one of the smartest things I've read on Bowsite. I can't remember who said it, but it is was here on Bowsite. It is right on!

From: TrapperKayak
16-Apr-19
Yeah, where would we be if the 'WHEEL' had never been invented... :)

From: Teeton
16-Apr-19
Scentman, no! The crossbow of today was not around.

From: HedgeHunter
16-Apr-19

HedgeHunter's embedded Photo
HedgeHunter's embedded Photo
I like archery hunting any kind. It is changing as we speak as well.

We hunt during gun season now. So, more guns in woods and more animals = what? Compound did not save anything, more likely is they "sold something". Accuracy to an Army of outdoorsmen.

My hand made flintlock shoots well to 80yds so does a good compound. I was shooting 75yds as a kid with my browning in 2d.

Soon your going to have more crossbows and air arrow launchers. Then what?

I know, we give Last two weeks of Oct- First two of Nov to one string bows only.

Careful what you wish for or you maybe hanging yer old 2019 model Matthews on a nail in a barn too.

The Hard Way for me.

HH~

From: TrapperKayak
16-Apr-19
"..its the Leatherwall calling for Hedge Hunter.... they want their Rock Star back." They Do??? To whomever said the good old days (60s/70s) had fewer hunters, I can safely say that where I live and hunt, there were far more hunters back in those days. Gun hunters. Very few bow hunters, but there were a few. There were fewer deer as a result I think, but deer numbers were good then too. I think cp hunters replaced a lot of the gun hunters precisely because there were so many gun hunters and guys wanted relief from that. So when the Jennings Sidekick and other early cps came into existence, the hunter population dynamics shifted to cp users from shotgunners, and it relieved a lot of 'stress' during gun seasons. It became less and less like 'Nam on opening day in the southern tier. It spread the wealth so to speak. Not a bad thing if you are a gun hunter. And you could hunt both seasons. I have rarely, if almost NEVER, even here in NY State, seen other bow hunters during season, even to this day. Occasionally I do, and I see a lot of tree stands, but overall, hunter numbers are fewer now days than they were in the 'good old days'. Now its turning into xbows, and I see nothing wrong with those hunters taking 'over' where cp'r leave off. You see far fewer cps for sale, and way more xbows now in the stores. Whatever, no skin off my butt. I still have very good quality hunts and see almost NO ONE even in NY. And I consistently get into and get game of all species.

16-Apr-19
HedgeHunter makes a lot of sense.

From: timex
16-Apr-19
if he has the time & knowledge and skill to make his own bows & hunt & kill game with them I think that's fantastic. but imo his choice of words when describing his opinion of others choice of equipment is demeaning perhaps to the point of beying arrogant. I bet it's lonely up there looking down on everyone

From: Ollie
16-Apr-19
I think bowhunting would be better off. The never-ending evolution of the compound bow coupled with the never-ending onslaught of high-tech accessories takes us further and further away from the concept of "hunting the hard way" and "embracing the challenges of hunting with a bow and arrow." Obviously my opinion on this will be in the minority but you asked so I responded.

From: David A.
16-Apr-19
I own a compound although I haven't hunted with it in a long time. I also own various rifles, mostly high power airguns, though. I enjoy handicapping myself so to speak and what I do notice is many if not most hunters really balk at doing similar. In fact, they want to go in the opposite direction and increase their effective range. I prefer to hunt "predatory" close, 20 yds. and less because it's more fun. Just my opinion of fun, I guess.

So, I'm not an elitist but I do find the distance compounds and esp.xbows are readily capable of troubling for bowhunting seasons.

16-Apr-19
“If the compound had never been invented”

There would be no Bowsite. Fortunately the Compound has allowed bow hunting to remain relevant.

16-Apr-19
Bowhunting numbers were on the increase before compounds were invented. Fred was promoting the two season hunter, and it was successful. I am sure compounds increased the archery season hunters and success rate, just as the scoped crossbow will. For many species, other than whitetail deer, stricter regulations and shorter seasons will be required..... just as has been experienced the last 45 years with more limited draws and quota seasons. Point creep is real with many species.

From: timex
16-Apr-19
well I guess I'm blessed I live on the coast in VA. there's an overabundance of deer especially doe's I have 7-8 different places I hunt almost exclusively. & I do herd control at a plant nursery & am required to kill a minimum of 15 does per season. I also love fishing & spend the entire summer offshore fishing & not bow shooting -practicing. a freezer full of fish is just as important to me as venison. the compound allows me to fish all summer & still be proficient come Oct perhaps not to 40+yds but to 30 absolutely & I usually pick up the trad bow later in the season when I have time to practice & the deer are in the thick cover. I can understand in draw or point type situations more bowhunters leading to longer wait times but in my world it's irrelevant

16-Apr-19
Whitetail deer are over objective in many areas, and potentially diseased. Compounds and scoped crossbows help the harvest numbers.

From: ROUGHCOUNTRY
16-Apr-19
Nothing beats experience and old fashioned-predator/hunting skills. I'm in my late 40's and been hunting since I was a kid and I'm enjoying hunting immensely now with most of my time spent on public lands sharing the resource which can be frustrating at times as well too.

That being said, there are "short-cuts" available to burgeoning new bow hunters. New bows are extremely accurate and consistent along with the aiming and arrow rest devices available now. The camouflage is remarkable along with the fabrics and custom features of clothing and footwear. Google earth, OnX mapping, bow hunting videos and information abound. Where legal, game cameras, supplemental feeding and food plots make predicting "natural movement" a process of consistency.

A big "innovation" or sign of the times is all the recreational time that people have. No more weekend warrior stuff. People can take weeks of vacation to pursue game and early retirees can do it full time, so to speak.

Leasing and owning hunting land was more regional in the past but securing your personal honey hole of undisturbed animals can make the average hunter look like Tiger Woods playing at the Masters.

I shake my head sometimes here in Montana when I pull up behind oversized mud tire 4wd truck with assorted hunting product and bumper stickers smothered over the vehicle like gravy on biscuits:) Then outsteps a young guy or gal with fully coordinated Sitka gear and hat and beautiful ATV or side by side in the back. Sorry to offend some here that fit the mold......but I digress.

I still manage to fill some of my tags and I have indulged in some of the new advances, so I'm no purist either.

From: jjs
16-Apr-19
Be no issue with the compound if the release was ban, fingers on the string would be a changer and the x-bow would go away, a simple solution is sometimes the hardest.

From: timex
16-Apr-19
jjs I'm sorry to say most of the modern compounds are just not finger compatible my old bowtec 101st airborne is 44" which is long for a modern compound but there's no way I can shoot it with fingers (which I prefer) & iv tried several times and the configuration of the cams just won't allow it you even try to relax into your anchor to aim & it will snatch the string out your fingers I'm sure there are some decent finger compounds but I haven't looked for one

From: md5252
16-Apr-19
Crossbows will have the same effect, only 10x worse

From: HedgeHunter
16-Apr-19
IBO Xbow World Championships 2020?

String Howitzer.

HH~

From: tundrajumper
16-Apr-19
no stupid tv. hunting shows.

From: md5252
16-Apr-19
Crossbows will have the same effect, only 10x worse

From: HedgeHunter
17-Apr-19
Crossbow Horn Porn? Very interesting. Never saw any.

HH~

17-Apr-19
Compounds are not the problem, the erosion of why we bow hunt is the downfall. Bowhunting and archery season has largely moved from something one does for enjoyment, to a competitive race for the P$Y inches score. Scoped crossbows will not help the erosion of real bowhunting culture and values.

Too late already, time for everyone to move on and enjoy what is left of the real bow hunting culture. Glad I never left true bow hunting culture, but I will always remain in the minority which is simply the way it is. Compton Archery has a few members clinging to the last of the values and culture of bow hunting. Forget compounds, they are not the problem, changing culture and values is the decline.

From: Jaquomo
17-Apr-19
Interesting you mention competition for inches being bad, Comptons being good. Comptons had to invent a scoring system that awards extra points to the animal for shooting it with recurve, longbow, selfbow, on the ground vs. tree, etc.. because trad shooters are insecure about competing with compound hunters and must give themselves extra credit.

That, right there, indicates a problem with the trad/Compton mentality.

From: HedgeHunter
17-Apr-19
Ah

I think Lou, they just count everything.

Comptons is a very good Org.

Hedge~

17-Apr-19
Remember I stated... " a few members of Compton ". The P&Y scoring system was developed by stickbow shooters, not compound shooters. Many stickbow shooters are also into horn porn and competitive hunting, a negative cultural shift IMO. Weapons do not define the individual.

From: timex
17-Apr-19
I'm sorry but at this point I feel yal l are getting carried away with the whole issue .....bow hunting is about beying a good woodsman & CONSISTENTLY getting close to critters. and not which weapon is in your hand. these numbers are just an estimate but if iv killed 150 deer with a bow 110 of em have been inside of 20 yards. & only 2 were past 40. it's not about the weapon it's about beying a good hunter

From: BOHNTR
17-Apr-19
“The P&Y scoring system was developed by stickbow shooters, not compound shooters.”

Actually you are incorrect, MB. The Pope and Young Club did not create any scoring system at all......they utilize, by written permission, the Boone and Crockett Scoring System......and it was NOT developed by stick bow shooters.

17-Apr-19
You are correct. The P&Y club however was created by stickbow shooters and they set the archery standards for entry. Bad wording on my part.

From: Jaquomo
17-Apr-19
Hedge, they give extra credit points for different weapon types, treestand vs. ground, wood arrows, wool clothes and Fedora, etc. I think I figured my 210 net P&Y muley with a longbow from the ground would have scored something like 225 Compton. To me, it was just a big deer with a bow, didn't need any "extra credit"

From: 12yards
17-Apr-19
You mean I've been having a blast for the last 40+ years bowhunting with my compound and release aid and I've never been in the "true bowhunting culture"? Hmmm, maybe I really haven't been having fun all this time. Shame on me for doing what I've been doing and how I've been doing it. B.S. Whether I'm hunting for big antlers, does, or any kind of meat, my heart is pounding out of my chest when an animal is approaching. And it's been that way since I started way back in the late 1970s. When my heart quit pounding out of my chest when rifle hunting, I quit doing that. But the rush never stops when I'm hunting with my compound and release aid.

17-Apr-19
That is why I stated equipment does not make the bowhunter. We all have different methods and goals.

17-Apr-19
I do however admire the success of the hunter more who consistently takes mature animals with the stickbow, when compared to the same accomplishments with a compound, scoped crossbow, or rifle.

From: Stickshooter
17-Apr-19
I disagree with comments bowhunting would be at 10% of what it is now. Less yes but not anywhere that that low. You would know what your missing of you never had it. Guys bowhunted with their recurves and longbows way back when passed along to their next generations. They still continue in what I'll call Trad archery today in greater numbers than back 40 yrs ago and in most cases because they got bored with compounds.

17-Apr-19
Bowhunting was alive and well before compounds and scoped crossbows, that is true.

From: Jaquomo
17-Apr-19
Stickshooter, I don't think its true that trad shooter numbers are greater today than 40 years ago. Maybe in certain pockets of the country but not overall.

Our archery club has 500 families. We have a 3-D shoot every Wednesday evening from May-August, with 100+ shooters every week. 30 years ago trad made up almost half, so much so that we had to divide trad into flights because the same 4-5 of us won all the payback money. Now we have maybe 7-8 trad shooters each week. And its mostly old guys.

17-Apr-19
I also do not believe there are more stickbow shooters today than when I began shooting stickbows in the 1960's. There may be more than when dad started bow hunting, just before he left for World War 2.

From: Nick Muche
17-Apr-19
I bet there are more crossbow shooters today than back in the 60s :)

17-Apr-19
And..more to come.

From: Jeff Durnell
17-Apr-19
Yeah, stickbows have been in steady use for thousands, some say tens of thousands of years... but the compound saved bowhunting from certain extinction just in the last 40 years. Isn't that special. What a miracle machine! Thanks industry!

From: David A.
17-Apr-19
Just to mention, I queried what if the compound was never invented as I'm a curious person. I didn't imply the invention was evil or has screwed everything up. As I have said, I own a compound and have hunted with it. It's fun, maybe more fun than if I had to shoot a trad. bow the way most do, the way I used to...

Re: fewer stick bow shooters, I had to laugh when a guy in his twenties saw my longbow and asked me what it was. I'm not joking...he really had never seen a longbow. HiTech all the way for him. I was the one who was shocked...

From: bb
17-Apr-19
Ever ytime I see this argument, I can't help but think what if toilet paper was never invented?

From: HedgeHunter
17-Apr-19
Heard that BB many times here.

Shoot 51 whitetails in four seasons. Started counting after my last trip to A Stan. Most all with selfbow or vintage recurve. There were several black powder deer in that number..

Like to shoot from 15-25yds. Like to arrow in fight then impact and go out or halfway.

Comptons does have a few kooky add ons biut does not add much.

I dont think any state wouls have banned Trad gear if there were no wheels however.

Shorter season, less bow hunters, more deer.

Just look ML here in Southeast are killing the big ones regularly now. 1st two weeks Nov! Bow and rifle guys nothappy with it.

HH~

17-Apr-19
Nationwide, where scoped crossbows are legal for all during archery seasons, bow hunting is dying, even with compounds. Scoped crossbow hunting is consistently growing.

From: David A.
17-Apr-19
"Ever ytime I see this argument, I can't help but think what if toilet paper was never invented?" Well, it's not an argument so much as wondering. Directly related, here's a question, if you could wave a magic wand and reduce the number of bowhunters afield by 2/3 would you?

A selfish wish? Just so "I" can have more less interference by others, perhaps? But, everyone is an "I". The question doesn't imply we are going to force a certain number of bowhunters to take up another sport or just not hunt. Rather it asks whether few bowhunters a field is a desirable. Are we too crowded just so we can have a larger vote? At one point does too much of a good thing become a less desirable thing?

Similarly with technology. Have we gone past the point of too much of a good thing? ...and it's not necessary we all have to agree.

From: HedgeHunter
17-Apr-19
Maybe ine day you’ll have to draw just to hunt, dont know?

If the success rate is lower with Single string do they get more draws, dont know?

There is finite number of animals.

If X Bows in coming years shoot and kill to 100yds. Do they stay in bow seasons or move to ML Cobined String Rifle season, I dont know?

HH-

From: HeadHunter®
18-Apr-19
Compounds were just the beginning .... and now add in "The NET" & Social Media Video & Hunting Shows on T V and now we have cell phones with ALL the gadgets ..... and "sites" and "drunk fests gatherings" ...... My Head Hurts just thinking about all this! .....have we really progressed ????

From: fubar racin
18-Apr-19
.

From: fubar racin
18-Apr-19
Did TBM go full on trad and come back as hedgehunter?

From: HedgeHunter
18-Apr-19
Head Hunter

Now yer on to it. As we get Go Gadgety i decided to stay true.

There is already one state where you must get drawn for the State Hunts. You hunt private but for general hunt you must be drawn .

I do know some bow hunt only places where the herd is so use to hearing wheelie bow go off that the animals jump and go if you just snap a tiny twig. I call em Pavlov Herds. Makes killing anything with Trad bow a super trophy.

HH~

From: fubar racin
18-Apr-19
Haven’t you already been banned twice TBM hedgehunter whatever your calling yourself these days?

18-Apr-19
Bow hunting with hand drawn bows will continue to decline .......... and scoped crossbows will gain in acceptance and popularity. That is what we learned from the compound craze and from witnessing what has already taken place with the scoped crossbow revolution. A lot of people on this very site love and defend scoped crossbows for them, their family, and their children. That should tell one something about what is happening. Simply read the past threads supporting scoped crossbows. Bow hunting is in steady decline, while scoped crossbow hunting is growing.

From: HedgeHunter
18-Apr-19
Sure Breaks. Yer on it.

Easy, Faster, Fire and Forget Weapons

The Hard Way !

If they take Season time for string rifles it's gotta come from ML's slice. I mean BP season was for primitive BP weapons not ones that shots 300yds to 2.0". Same same. Blaster MLs need to go to rifle season.

Push everything to right one and reset.

We have a winner.

Hedge~

From: 12yards
18-Apr-19
If compounds had never been invented, I'd feel sorry for all the recurve shooters. The longbow guys would shame them for the advanced technology they are using. And don't even get me started on aluminum arrows. Spawn of the devil.

18-Apr-19
Well..... perhaps it is time to have scoped crossbows legal throughout the whole US and for all species. Simply adjust the seasons and opportunity accordingly, we did that for compound bows. What do you all think?

From: HedgeHunter
18-Apr-19
Right again Breaks

Pres Shift Enter and We're racking everything to right one place.

History has shown us the progression. No secret.

Get off yer TwitterSphere and regressa little to the POPE and YOUNG days.

HH~

From: HedgeHunter
18-Apr-19
Yeah

The Bronze Age was really terrible.

Hedge~

From: Catscratch
18-Apr-19
As I re-read through this thread I'm shocked at 2 things; the amount of people who say bowhunting would have died without the compound, and the amount of people who don't see the parallel of the crossbow and the compound.

I honestly would have thought that most on this site would have responded to the question with a shrug of the shoulders while saying "I would have hunted with anything, I didn't need the ease of the compound to get me into it". Instead the comments vastly hint to the fact that without the ease of the compound, bowhunting would have died... hunters needed the easier weapon. I don't agree, but I've stated that in earlier posts.

The second shocker is the failure to recognize crossbows as having the exact same affect and impact as the compound did. I find it difficult to sing the praises of the compound for saving bowhunting (by making it easy enough for the masses), but villainize the crossbow for doing the same thing.

18-Apr-19
Catscratch gets it.

From: HedgeHunter
18-Apr-19
He does.

He's on the skinny trail now.

HH~

From: Whocares
18-Apr-19
Well, this old timer knows one thing for sure as to the original question, if the compound was never invented I wouldn't have been shooting one for the last 30 years. Just last month picked up an older recurve, old style, not removable limbs, shoot off the shelf, so I'm playing around with the dark side and it's fun. As for crossguns, was at the archery shop last night and the owner said(he's been at it 40 years) said he's selling crossbows and traditional at a greater rate than compounds now. He thinks in part because the compounds don't really improve much more every year and everybody has a good one,, and a growing interest in the trads by compound users and a growing interest in the newer crossbows. Seems the main thing there is a strong interest in"being out there". Meanwhile, I'll see if I can get onto this recurve thing!

From: HedgeHunter
18-Apr-19
Like riding a bike WC !

HH~

From: M.Pauls
18-Apr-19
Is the question to be taken literally in that "what if the compound bow had never been invented"?, or is this to be taken as "what if technology hadn't advanced from 1965 onwards?"

There's a huge difference, and I think many here are answering as if it were the latter. Humans evolve, they learn, they adapt, and they are constantly advancing. Remove the wheels from the bows hypothetically, and you'd still have range finding sights, trail cams, internet, OnX maps etc etc today. And we would also still be arguing about who is more "trad"! :) I doubt in reality it would have as massive an effect as a lot of folks think. My guess would be very little

From: HedgeHunter
18-Apr-19
Not if you dont use that stuff.

But it is there for the Easier Path.

HH~

From: 12yards
18-Apr-19
I'm not afraid to say the line should be drawn at compounds. You got to draw the line somewhere and I think it should be at compounds. I started shooting a bow when compounds were just gaining popularity back in the 70s. I didn't start on a stick unless you call that old fiberglass Bear kids bow I had a stick bow. I guess it was. I have no idea if I would have still picked up a bow if it weren't for compounds. But this is just my stinkin' humble opinion. LOL. Nobody is right and nobody is wrong in this stinkin' thread.

From: Silverback
18-Apr-19
I agree with catscratch. He put my thoughts into words much better than I could have.

From: David A.
18-Apr-19
"Remove the wheels from the bows hypothetically, and you'd still have range finding sights" ....Well, yeah on the same riser if you exchanged wheels for limbs, but fancy sights have never made any ingression into recurves/longbows. You'd have simple sights at best. Trad. bows don't have the practical range for the vast majority past 30 yrs. and for most 20 yds. is about maximum. And almost exclusively trad. archers/hunters do not use mechanical releases. They just don't work well at higher hold weights for most people. A lot of tried, I doubt if 1/2 of 1% use mechanical releases. Those that do usually have hand injuries.

If compounds hadn't been invented, a lot more research would have gone into composite limb design such as with golf clubs, although there certainly have been developments in composite limbs over the years. Some recurves today use no wood or fiberglass, for example. It still hasn't changed the nature of trad. archery. Ditto for carbon arrows vs. wood. More consistency has been achieved, but not much change in effective range. The technology has been pretty much maxed out and the best recurves today are pretty much the same as they were 50 yrs. ago despite small improvements.

From: David A.
18-Apr-19
That technological conservatism is ideal in some ways. Very different than what happened with the compound. And the Xbows have shown an even more rapid progression where now almost anyone can kill deer at ranges that used to be limited to rifles.

From: Don
18-Apr-19
I would hope that most people on this site would still be up to the challenge, but I'm sure the average Joe would not be interested in putting in the extra work to be a traditional bowhunter, so we would have more gun hunters, and less bow hunters. Same reason so many are flocking to crossbows. There might not be much change otherwise, except I would have a lot less company bowhunting public land with my recurve. Doesn't sound too bad really

From: Jaquomo
18-Apr-19
If we didn't have compounds we would just have a lot more guys flinging arrows at 70-100 yards with trad bows, shooting at running animals, wounding game, just like the old time "heroes" of our sport did back in the Good Old Days.

Adding: bowhunting would probably be in big trouble because there would be a bunch of wounded animals with arrows in their necks and asses running around, photos of which would go viral on social media, and people would be demanding an end to this just as they are doing with trapping.

From: timex
18-Apr-19
hey some modern things are great a few of the peices I hunt I got the landowners info from onx. contracted them & wala got me 20 acres exclusive all to myself that I can use whichever legal weapon I chose. as iv said earlier the hunt these days is in securing permission to private land. & not with which weapon u use hunting it

From: timex
18-Apr-19
in the late 80s there was an archery 3d range a few miles from my house in Warrenton va. it was on meets rd & was mostly trad & compounds without sights Stacy grosscup (spelling ?) even attended a shoot. and by first hand experience back then there were a lot of not very good trad bow shooters. novelty - comrodery - passion idk but a lot of shooters accuracy beyond 15 yds was pitiful. there were a few outstanding trad & compound without sights shooters. a VERY FEW

From: HedgeHunter
18-Apr-19
Lou

Who was the guy who hung out with Art and Saxton? Mr Compton?

The hunted with dozens of Arrows. Shot at running game etc.

That happens with rifles Lou. Couple seasins ago i used my last buck tag on nice big nine. He was shot at bery close range from tree with smoke pole. Hit low shoulder slug was stuck in off leg low. He got an arrow. This is part of the pastime called hunting. Happens to the very best.

Hedge~

From: Snag
18-Apr-19
I used to hunt with a compound. Now I carry a longbow into the woods. Everyone chooses their own journey. If anyone would like to see why crossbows are different than both these weapons you should read the current Traditional Bowhunter magazine. There is an article in it that makes things real clear. Sometimes it’s good to look at something through another man’s eyes. Happy hunting

From: bb
18-Apr-19
"That happens with rifles Lou." It does, The odds of killing what you're shooting at are infinitely better when it does happen with a rifle, not that it's ok, but better odds by far.

"I'm sure the average Joe would not be interested in putting in the extra work to be a traditional bowhunter,"

What extra work? You mean all the tuning that doesn't get done with a trad bow? All the Practice so you can hit a pie plate at 20 yards? Keep in mind perception is a two way street. I see trad shooters feel pretty good about keeping their groups in a 12" circle at 20 yards. A compound shooter feels good about keeping his groups in a 2" circle at 30 yards. I know I know, none of this is directed at any trad shooters on this site. We all know you can keep your shots moa.

From: Ambush
18-Apr-19
Funny. Lots of guys hunting with single string and regularly killing animals (and not just WT’s). Same guys hunt hard and hunt for (their) enjoyment. But they somehow never come across as thinking they are special or better or truer to the cause.

It’s usually the guys that spend a lot of time telling others that they don’t think of themselves as special that actually do think they are.

From: timex
18-Apr-19
if there was a way to get an accurate count I would wager that traditional bow hunters (single string vertical bows) represent less than 5% of the hunting community. in the 19 years that I've lived on the coast in va iv met 1 other trad bow shooter. there is a shoot near ocean city Md that iv been told has a few trad bow shooters but iv not attended. perhaps the #s are different in the West-Midwest. but not here

From: timex
18-Apr-19
ambush I went 12 years bow only no gun hunt at all & one 50 acre peice I hunt has a father & his 2 sons that gun & x bow hunt when i'd drag out a deer I killed with a recurve during gun season that they pushed into the marsh laurel where I was waiting. well I was humble & polight but I most definitely new that I had superior hunting skills compared to them an elitist no but proud of my accomplishment you bet

From: HedgeHunter
18-Apr-19
There are more Wheel Bow hunters and shooters . This is clear. Go to a ASA National and thats evident.

I see more and more compound guys coming into the single string tent.

Fact is lots of folks need a rig that they can harvest with effectively.

Nothing wrong with that.

HH

From: David A.
19-Apr-19
Hate to disagree with my friend here,but I doubt many trad. bowhunters would do much arrow flinging at extreme ranges. It just doesn't work, despite Howard Hill or Fred Bear making those long shots on occasion. Over the years the trend actually has been towards more conservative shot taking. Post a story about taking 100 yd. shots on an elk or deer with your recurve today and you'll be roundly criticized. It's not just an ethical issue however. It's a fun issue. More and more trad. bowhunters have come to understand it's more fun hunting close than even taking just 40 yd. shots.

From: David A.
19-Apr-19
And therefore, probably the camo industry would have developed a bit sooner, esp. 3D types of camo. Maybe earlier efforts with cover scents, tree stands, and blinds.

19-Apr-19
Horrible shot selection and shots are taken with all weapons, thus wounding and crippling animals unnecessarily. One of the reasons the antis do not like hunting. From reading here and on other threads, if wounding is that pervasive, maybe they have a valid concern.

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