Forced wolf placement, Colorado
Elk
Has anyone else seen this? Reads like an ecological nightmare...
Its Initiative 79, in the Secretary of State's hands right now for approval for the 2020 ballot. They promised to put it on the ballot after the Wildlife Commission rejected their demands last spring. This will be a disaster for everyone except wolfies. But I'm very concerned it will pass just because of the huge lefty voting bloc on the Front Range.
People seem to be migrating to Colorado from all over the US apparently because of better habitat. Couldn't wolves just walk to Colorado from Wyoming if the habitat was good for them also? Why do they have to be "placed" there?
Wolves certainly could just walk to Colorado from Wyoming. Of course, not many will survive the trek once they leave their protected zones. It’s a long way from NW Wyoming to Colorado, with plenty of us ready, willing, and able to put them out of our misery once they do.
Lost Arra... unlike the wave of new people moving to Colorado, wolves don't smoke pot, so the habitat is not good for them.
My point (tongue in cheek) is that if Colorado was a good place for wolves then the sneaky ones that avoid wyobullshooter would probably eventually get there on their own. I don't understand the need for placement when there is no Wolf Wall keeping them out.
Sadly.....Colorado is only going to get worse. The politics of the state, due to a few population centers, put one in the mind of a left or right coast state. Wolves will soon be the norm in Colorado and there will be less political capital to control them than any other wolf state. Not good.
Lost Arra, wolves have been “sneaking” into Colorado for years. There’s been a few that have made it as far as I-70, until they ended up splattered by a semi. A few here and there are not acceptable to the tree huggers that have taken over the front range. They want to hear and see these cute, cuddly, little fur balls in all their glory...the more, the better.
It took over 20yrs for Wyoming to prevail in the fight against the uncontrolled overrun of wolves, and that’s with a population and governor that fought tooth and nail to get control turned over to the state. With the major population areas, therefore the voting majority, controlled by tree huggers, along with a far left liberal governor, Colorado is screwed. Thank God we can take care of them once they cross the border into Wyoming, otherwise the elk and moose population in both the Sierra Madre’s and Snowies would quickly be decimated.
I wish Wolves ate idiots instead of elk and deer; the world would be such a better place.
I believe it's only a matter of time. The one advantage is that the huge herds on private will be pushed and dispersed, but it's going to hit the elk herd hard once they're established in the Routt/White River areas. You might have a better shot at killing a cow in the wilderness eventually, but the private land folks and outfitters are going to be hit hard.
The sheep herders are going to be hit hard.
CO's moose herd will be decimated as the way that moose survive wolves is by having ample access to water where they have an advantage due to their long legs and they just take it in the teeth all winter as wolves have their way once the ice comes. Much of CO's moose habitat just doesn't have the kind of water that provides escape cover to cows/calves.
The wolves are coming from California.
The Wildlife Commission acknowledges they are already here, and their position is that if they naturally repopulate (to escape the WY wind...) we will deal with them. That's not good enough for the wolfies, who want to jump start the process to, you know, "restore the balance of nature".
The groups pushing this need to be held responsible (finacially and criminally) for any damage they do to people. property and livestock, as well as our other wildlife.
The hunters of WY will be waiting for them when they cross the border. Unfortunately they'll probably stay in CO with all the free elk and moose meat available.
Hoping it doesn't pass but the liberals in CO will probably pass it. Especially the folks from the Republic of Boulder.
Maybe someone should point out to these misguided do-gooders that if these larger Canadian wolves get down south to the San Juans and south, that they'll emigrate to the Gilas and the surrounding Arizona habitat of the Mexican Wolf, which actually IS endangered, and rip them to shreds...
Idyllwildarcher that’s just not true the cute cuddly wolves live on fruit nuts and the meat that’s made at the store no way they would ever hurt any of the other cute cuddly little animals!
If this passes into law, CPW should fulfill their lawful duty and release [castrated] wolves into CO.
I noticed they want them released on the west slope, NOT in beloved Estes Park.
More and more, I believe Ecological Science is dead... and hunting is following.
Ike, Randy Newberg just did a podcast recently with Jim Heffelfinger of AZGFD (who is a very sharp dude!) who stated that the northern wolves will dominate and dilute the gene pool of the Mexican red wolves, which have had a successful program, and eventually do great harm to that species. Biologists like Jim are definitely not on board with Colorado introducing gray wolves for that reason...but who cares about science, wolves are pretty and stuff, we should have them...
Ike, actually the opposite happens here in WY. The wolves rarely impact elk herds much on the private lands here because the government trappers are immediately called and the wolves "taken care of". More elk tend to hit the ranches and stay just for the predator control there. It's crazy, but sure seems true around NW Wyoming.
When the ads for this campaign hit the media, the entire western half of Colorado, communities, ranchers, outfitters, hunters, will unite to fund a media campaign as well. Thats what we didn't have with the bear hunting and trapping initiatives.
Unfortunately, the CPW is prohibited by state law from getting involved in the campaign. That could be changed by the legislature, but highly doubtful with THIS super-left legislature.
Ron, actually that's consistent with people I've talked to. When I hunted the south Shoshone, the rancher I talked with said the cows were coming out of the wilderness to calve on the private way out in the open in what is usually winter range because at least they could see the bears/wolves coming who were generally staying up high. He also said that he had a 2 year old steer verifiably taken down by a pack of wolves. It was at that point that the state came in and trapped the pack.
Today the Minnesota House passed an amendment attached to the broader Environment and Natural Resource funding bill to prohibit resumption of wolf hunting if wolves are removed from the endangered list. Passed 65-64. Unbelievable!! Will eventually be in front of the Senate. Never thought they'd pull that off here. Colorado, you're not alone in dealing with these mis-guided people unwise in the ways of nature. Not sure how we deal with it!
Whocares, I'd never thought you (MN) would have some of the elected officials you do.
Take a good look at Montana, Idaho and Wyoming, look at the Northern Yellowstone Elk herd 20 years ago compared to today, it is a travesty. The Moose herds here in Montana are all but gone. This is a plan from the anti hunting community, replace hunter on the top of the food chain. So good luck Colorado, if this happens your ungulate herds will end up like ours.
Good luck, Terry L. Zink
Sadly the wolf has come to symbolize for many people something that they are not but would love to imagine they are! Ever notice that these people almost always champion top predators, the killers in charge and the take what they want animals. IMO that is no coincidence. Top predators have the power, fear and respect of all in their environment, the very thing the puny, ineffective city dweller does not. Why else does that loving, socialist, kind-to-all person choose a killer as his/her “Spirit Animal”. Why not a rabbit or deer or even a song bird?
It is the same sickness that attracts people to the “kill everyone and thing in my way” video games. The same person ruthlessly inflicting virtual death and damage for hours is the same person supporting wolves and grizzlies.
It’s about imagined power for the weak!! It’s a fantasy world where they always win!
BC has too many wolves. Way too many wolves. Way, way too many wolves. And all the ungulate populations have suffered greatly, the caribou to near extinction in some herds. But guess which animal the metro morons are intent on protecting?!?
Unfortunately our “first world “ nations have let wealth and security degrade our lives to the point of being completely out of touch with the hardships that used to mold character.
Sadly, only a major war, total disaster or sustained food interruption will bring people back to grips with what really matters in life. People won’t have to invent things to worry about.
Don't we all wish the left coast huggers had not invaded CO? Leave a place that is totally screwed and then proceed to screw up the place you escaped to?
"Leave a place that is totally screwed and then proceed to screw up the place you escaped to"
That's what they do...it's all they know...once they shit in their nest they come and shit in yours!
I really don't like advocating breaking the law .... but if hunters would kill these wolves and keep them out ..... the solution is right there IMO
Would suck to get caught doing it, but from all I've read, there are zero benefits to wolves in the lower US
I'll echo houndy's comments. Good luck!
Only benefit here is now have option for wolf hunting with cheap tags. Good luck with that in Colorado!
stealthycat,
First off, there are more than a few wolves in the midwest being killed currently.
Secondly, even widespread civil disobedience, much more so than is happening now, will not control wolf populations. Hunting alone will never make a dent, just like hogs. They're too secretive and too smart. It takes a concerted trapping effort that is widespread over their entire range to make a dent in numbers and the only way wolves were removed from the lower 48 in the first place, was by widespread civilian and government poisoning.
Honestly, I think we'd be surprised at the % of guys that would SSS. But it's not going to make a difference.
Trapping is illegal in Colorado. When the law passed, the CDOW was angry becausebit took away a valuable management tool.
"Trapping is illegal in Colorado." That totally sucks! Did not know that. What a bunch of BS.
The year before WY's wolf season was shut down, I saw the wolf kill numbers and I can't remember what they were exactly, but if I remember correctly and someone please correct me if I'm wrong, it was heavily slanted towards trappers over hunters.
One group is trying to get a coalition together - Colorado Stop the Wolf Coalition.
Everyone that hunts or wants to hunt Colorado should donate!
Yes, the voters on the Front Range voted to outlaw trapping by a huge margin. The TV ads they ran were heart-wrenching, animals with chewed off legs, starving pups in dens, trapped animals looking dreadful and appearing to cry. I think they even had a short video clip of a bearded brute clubbing a terrified animal in a trap. We had no chance.
This time our side can run emotional ads with moose calves being eaten alive, etc.. Everyone in CO (except those of us moose have tried to kill...) loves moose.
Sounds like on Tuesday they passed a bill banning future wolf hunting in Minnesota too. It was on the radar to be a hunt in 2020 so of course they had to ban it...
"Everyone that hunts or wants to hunt Colorado should donate"!
Donated!
https://apple.news/APXwQCQlRSBqcywRnUM01jA
What’s happening in Idaho. Predator Control under review by the courts.
I hate checking this thread.
Wolfs in Yellowstone was the worst thing man has ever done to or wildlife they put 150 lb Timber wolves to replace the 50 to 60 lb gray wolves not the same animal
The decisions these people make are unreal. Years ago they introduced cats from out west to Florida hoping to breed with the few remaining Florida panthers. Now we have well fed full grown mountain lions with no trace of Florida panther blood. They’ve had the same affect on our wildlife population as the wolves have had with y’alls out west. Craziness
from Eastmans: " As usual, the push is coming from outside the state. The Sierra Club, Ted Turner Foundation and others are supportive of this, and Montana senator Mike Phillips, a director of the Turner Endangered Species Fund is advising the two Colorado partner groups behind the initiative, The Rocky Mountain Wolf Project and the Rocky Mountain Wolf Action Fund. The latter group is funded by the San Francisco-based Tides Center."
-- remember, if you hunt any of Turners' ranches, you are monetarily contributing
IdyllwildArcher, not sure about Wyoming but in Montana hunters still kill more wolves than trappers. Montana set a record this past year with 315 wolves confirmed killed, 165 by hunters and 130 by trappers. Not sure about the other 20, probably cars trains and lions... and livestock damage control.
I've tried but they're not easy. Need to concentrate more in December I think, late season (February!) is tough getting anywhere especially with the snows we've had the last couple years.
Great insight Ambush...and nicely presented. Kevin
IdyllwildArcher wolves do not reproduce like hogs - that's not a valid comparison
but even if the people SSS'ing killed only a few every year, that's a few more not in the wild to breed/eat
kill then all - plenty in Canada and AK
The problem with SSS nowadays is that you can't be sure the wolf doesnt have a chip or tracking collar, and also with the fact that everyone has a camera and phone these days. No matter where you are or how remote, somebody might see or hear, or notice the collar stopped moving and be on it.
I thought Trump was gonna stop all that BS........
I thought Trump was gonna stop all that BS........
Trump can't stop a ballot initiative in CO. All they need to do is get 125K verified signatures and it goes to the voters.
Ambush your synopsis is the one of the best I've read on a wolf lovers mentality
The anti-wolf coalition needs to make it so you can donate less than $25. I was low on funds but willing to donate and was denied as it wasn't enough. That is going to keep a lot of low dollar donors away.
"The problem with SSS nowadays is that you can't be sure the wolf doesnt have a chip or tracking collar, and also with the fact that everyone has a camera and phone these days. No matter where you are or how remote, somebody might see or hear, or notice the collar stopped moving and be on it."
there is some truth to that .... I guess how badly does sportsman want wolves in their area is the question
I don't live in Colorado or wolf states
In BC there was always no closed season or bag limit on wolves. Then some areas had three or ten per annum, closed from June to till August for hunters. Trappers can take as many as they can catch. Doesn't even slow down the population growth, never mind knock them back.
When guiding tenures were owned by locals, nearly all of them in the upper half of the province spent the winters in their areas trapping and shooting wolves from the small planes. For many years they used 1080 that they bought and set out on their own dime. This was all done privately, quietly and very effectively increased game populations. Many northern tenures now are owned by foreign entities and stocked with offshore guides. Nobody weeding the garden in the off season. So wolves have proliferated and game populations have plummeted. Throughout the province predators, particularly wolves, have decimated the moose, elk, deer and especially caribou and even sheep populations with impunity!
Your only real hope is to absolutely insist the packs be re-introduced into ALL!!! of their traditional areas, INCLUDING urban green spaces. That's right, put cougars, wolves, coyotes, bobcats, black and grizzly bears into urban, suburban and semi rural areas, Into their backyards! I never could figure out why my backyard belonged to the bears and yet their backyard was , well, their backyard. They say cities aren't good places for predatory wildlife and it doesn't seem to penetrate that it was not always a city there, it was the predators backyard there too.
In Vancouver, its blows their narrow minds when coyotes brazenly kill pets or cougars stalk their backyards and parks after dark. They don't want them there, but they don't want them killed. The anguish of the dichotomy has them wringing their hands, piddling and moaning and then coming to the conclusion that the preds should have free reign EVERYwhere else to make up for not being allowed to be a danger to their children and Fifi's.
Put the wolves with those that want them!!! They can then demonstrate to the rest us us "how to live in harmony" with nature.
If I read this thread, as a wolf proponent, I feel encouraged.
The problem with our country is epitomized in this very issue.
Every level headed person (i.e., those against wolf transplants) should take arms and kill every wolf they see, wherever and whenever they see it. Our country was built by men that were intelligent, but had guts too.
Quit crying and start killing. Take power back.
Panther Bone, do you regularly commit felonies and break federal law because you have "guts"?
Just checking....
Ok, I'm pissed that Colorado gives out unlimited NR elk tags. I don't like that law. So if a camp of guys from, let's say, Tennessee moves into my valley, the righteous thing to do would be to steal all their gear and burn their camp? Because that's what the brave men who built the West, who had "guts", would have done. I like that plan!
My new motto with NR elk hunters in my area is, "Stop complaining, start burning". If your camp burns down, you know who to thank!
WV stocked hogs 35 years ago. To date, it is the only state that I know of where the residents accepted them until their numbers spread them into areas that caused conflict. The residents encompassing the 250,000 acres they were stocked, declared war on the vermin. The hog population is almost zero today. I think the check in data showed 18 hogs last year versus the thousand from 20 years ago.
This is in country that averages 70% slope, is covered in rhododendron, greenbriars, rock cliffs, etc.. Some of the roughest ground you can literally stand up on and walk. And, most of that isn't remotely easy. Line of site averages about 10 yards. So, please excuse me if I don't buy that hunters can have no or little effect on predator populations.
Please take two minutes to support this cause... Federal delisting of wolves. It’s free and easy so please show your support.
Bad thing about taking them off the list is that it allows Colorado to bring them in without Federal oversight...
So today in the Denver Post we have a passionate letter from someone who claims to be a hunter, who welcomes wolves into CO as a symbol of all things wild, blah, blah. Just like we had hunters publicly supporting the bear hunting and trapping initiatives. And nonhunters read and hear this and say, "See, even hunters are in favor of wolves!"
As much as I detest Big Game Forsale and Sportsmen For Selling Wildlife, I signed the petition. But I unchecked the box about receiving spam from them. I get the feeling that they would support wolves everywhere if they could make a buck selling licenses to hunt them.
From: Jaquomo 03-May-19
The problem with SSS nowadays is that you can't be sure the wolf doesnt have a chip or tracking collar, and also with the fact that everyone has a camera and phone these days. No matter where you are or how remote, somebody might see or hear, or notice the collar stopped moving and be on it.
I’m not suggesting to comit a felony- let them de-list wolves first. Then shoot ‘em and move on. How quick can they possibly get there? If someone happens to hear you shoot...............you were coyote hunting and missed! ;-)
I don't know, Rut Nut. They catch people who illegally shoot and leave moose, and they aren't collared and chipped. I like the WY policy where they can just be shot by hunters outside the GYE.
"I heard howling, saw a hairy creature, took the shot, and accidentally hit a bearded dreadlocked hippie wolfie who was on his knees howling..."
Probably a decent amount of hunters who support wolves in CO. Most people aren't engaged in politics much until they get into there 20s or 30s.
We are at the point where some younger hunters in CO missed out on how the WY, ID, MT introduction went. They know it was controversial but its calmed down now and they grew up in farther left Colorado than the generations before. They grew up without normal bear hunting and trapping that were lost at the ballot. Their idea of being a hunter/conservationist when it comes to wolves, wilderness, multiple-use and managing by ballot initiatives can be quite different different than the general sentiment we see here. More of a hunter/preservationist approach.
Not just the young guys, there are also guys with some age on them that are vocal about issues like this and fall way left. The world is changing fast.
I'm not anti wolf. I'm anti what-people-do-when-it-comes-to-introducing-them. I will likely never support establishing them anywhere due to how it went last time. Certainly never in CO.
NPR (National Populist Radio) had a “rancher from Routt County” on a couple of days ago that claimed to be all for the wolves. Said the elk numbers were too high and we need wolves to keep them from competing with his livestock...
Total BS.
Every rancher I know around here will stop what they’re doing to kill any coyote they see. Talked to one yesterday that said he had lost at least two calves to coyotes and was livid about the concept of bringing wolves in! Said he would shoot any coyote or wolf he ever came across.
Anyone claiming to be a hunter in this state that knows anything will be against bringing wolves in as well...
Jaq- that’s when you become a bad hunter.............. “You mean I actually hit it? I thought it was a big coyote- oops!!!” ;-)
Here is the letter in the Denver Post. Wolves will solve CWD? And save mankind from it?
Subsistence hunting is an act that demands gratitude and humility. While hunting, I have the opportunity to feel what it’s like to leave the comforts of modern life and live amongst the wild things. It gives me respect for the animals that hunt for a living, like wolves.
Today, gray wolves only occupy a small portion of their historic range in the U.S. They have yet to come back to Colorado after being eradicated from the state in the early 1900s. Despite this, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service has proposed to delist the gray wolf from the Endangered Species Act. But how can they be considered “recovered” when they don’t call Colorado home yet?
In the Centennial State, chronic wasting disease is becoming more prevalent. Some experts say that it could be transmittable to humans. When you process your deer, you also want to test it for CWD before handling or consuming the meat. But what doesn’t have to test for CWD is wolves. By hunting infected deer, they improve the health of herds and decrease the transmission of the disease. Multiple studies indicate that the lack of carnivores on landscapes, primarily wolves, has likely played a role in the prevalence of CWD.
Wolves are native to Colorado, just like I am. They need more time to make it back home. You can help by submitting a public comment to the Fish and Wildlife Service before May 14 by going to endangered.org/actforwolves.
Michael Petruccione, Denver
Wolves will solve CWD? MORE JUNK SCIENCE !
It’s sad to see a once great state go right down the crap hole. I Thank God every day I live north of the border.
Rut Nut, a few years ago in NM an old man shot his wife in the farm yard and said he thought she was a coyote. For real. She lived and forgave him because she said his eyesight is really bad and they've been having problems with coyotes.......
Someone should point out to Mr Wolf lover, ( and the readers) that wolves will eat the marrow from CWD animals and with their large territories, they will actually spread the disease far and wide. Across borders and into un-infected areas.
If they truly will target the CWD animals then the spread will be even more certain.
So last year I went to NM to look for sheds. Found a few and a deadhead that DOW had to check out before i could take it. It was wolves, they run besides the Bull or cow elk or deer and bite the ear. It slows them down and others can help out as one goes for the throat. I talked with the officer for a bit about what to look for to figure out what kill the elk or deer. So back in colorado and been out hiking and came across a 4x bull elk its ears gone and between its eyes its skull had been separated. Chewed in half Ive seen the front part of the nose chewed a little but to my understanding thats a Lion. Ive never seen this before, could have been a bear out of hibernation? however there was scat and one good big dog track. I also found 6 does killed, two both ears gone the other 4 just one ear. This was near Kremling where a wolf was shot a few years ago. This is not the first tracks or evidence I've seen.
So my point if there are already wolves here then there would be no need for reintroduction? Everyone needs to start putting cameras out on winter ranges and check up on this.
Ambush, the DOW did research on CWD on boulder deer and published it a few years back. I believe they stopped at around 100 because they had 85% or more were infected.
The wolf issue should be voted on only those where the wolves will be placed.
Compared to a jumbo North Park coyote track
Compared to a jumbo North Park coyote track
Ski-Skin, thats the official position of the CPW Commission. They are already here, so let them naturally repopulate so the state can develop a management plan. They told the howlers that at the hearing last summer, which is what spurred this initiative.
A single wolf came through the remote valley below our camp this elk season, heading south from Wyoming toward Kremmling. Funny that all the coyotes left the area for a week after he came through.. :-O
No pics but here's one of the tracks. I have good sized hands.
From: Jaquomo 05-May-19
Rut Nut, a few years ago in NM an old man shot his wife in the farm yard and said he thought she was a coyote. For real. She lived and forgave him because she said his eyesight is really bad and they've been having problems with coyotes.......
Good thing his eyesight wasn't any better......................................... ;-)
Colorado. Wyoming's Mexico.
From: Jaquomo 05-May-19 Rut Nut, a few years ago in NM an old man shot his wife in the farm yard and said he thought she was a coyote. For real. She lived and forgave him because she said his eyesight is really bad and they've been having problems with coyotes.......
The secret to a long marriage is poor eyesight! Who knew?
"Wolves are native to Colorado, just like I am. They need more time to make it back home. You can help by submitting a public comment to the Fish and Wildlife Service before May 14 by going to endangered.org/actforwolves. "
Michael Petruccione, Denver
Mr Petruccione- I think Native Americans would beg to differ about you being "native". If you believe wolves need to be reintroduced because they are "native", according to your logic, you need to leave Colorado. I am sure Native Americans would appreciate living in your former neighborhood.
You have to wonder if this Petruccione guy is really a "hunter". The way these zealots lie, who really knows. Or maybe he goes out on a pheasant shoot now and then and considers himself a "hunter".
Seeing as someone mentioned Sierra Club above..... What is BHA's stance on this?
Seem silent so far. Not surprising. Their single focus is land preservation. They don't seem concerned about any other issues that directly affect the future of hunting.
Maybe Land Tawney will take time out from Democrat PAC fundraising to weigh in, but I bet not since many in BHA leadership are probably all for this initiative.
Have talked to them and they are standing on the sidelines for this one.
The logic of “wolves were here first” applies to many things displaced. As someone mentioned, Native Americans were displaced, why not move out everything from displaced lands?
I think the best way to rationalize with the pro-wolf side is to let them know that after European settlement, wolves were deemed competition and extirpated. Right or wrong, it forged development where humans built and lived, ranches included. These developments grew without wolves so no reason to stop.
Now, the landscape is crisscrossed with roads, ranches and many other human hurdles. Is it fair to wolves to put them into small areas, cages so to speak, where wolves quickly fill?
What happens when wolves expand to less than ideal habitat and now interfere with people who settled without wolves present? I believe, the answer is managed populations.
We cannot have complete destruction of wolves, but we also cannot have unfettered population growth. It is not fair to wolves to seek marginal habitat not those trying to live in former wolf less areas.
We need to face the fact that we no longer look like we did when wolves roamed vast areas of true wilderness. Pro-wolf point to Yellowstone and what repair wolves have started. My statement is, no hunting is allowed in Yellowstone. That is why cervid populations increased. Generally speaking, hunters do a fantastic job keeping cervids within population goal, but the area of no hunting should not be used to demonstrate how wolves can replace hunters.
The answer is simple, 50:50. Hunters give up 50% and pro-wolf gives up 50%...why not give management a shot?
"why not give management a shot?"
I think most agree with that sentiment. It's Obama-appointed judges that don't seem to be on our team. When partisan judges can establish wildlife management policy, the system has failed badly.
The pro wolf folks forgot to reestablish the tens of millions of Bison as a prey base before putting wolves back. Someone should let them know.
Wolves won't eat all the elk, moose and deer. They will eat a bunch and hunting will be changed dramatically. When a hard winter, disease, or habitat loss causes a die off, wolves continuing to eat everyday will have a big impact on rebounding.
Obama appointed judges....hmmm wonder how they would get along with Obama PAC fundraising chiefs? Or more importantly how those chiefs will bow before the judges bringing the supposed voices of today's hunting populace? Cozy little web now isnt it?
Per Initiative 79, the main and only reason for Introduction is.
(c). Once restored to Colorado, gray wolves will help restore a CRITICAL BALANCE, in nature.
The pro-wolf crowd is very hypocritical. They don’ t want human intvervention and blame hunters for killing (never mind hunting has been regulated for last 75 years).
Look at Isle Royale. The wolf experiment failed YET they decided to put more wolves back on the island! They won’t accept the results. The moose beat out the wolves in the first experiment due to interbreeding of wolves. What was their answer, add more wolves!
Wouldn’ t the logical answer be to hold limited cow moose hunts on the island in winter when nobody is on island? Maybe collect funds for park service?
So they spend a million dollars airlifting wolves from Michipicoten Island and Canada. Anti-hunting abounds.
" (c). Once restored to Colorado, gray wolves will help restore a CRITICAL BALANCE, in nature. " Because the Colorado Department of Wildlife and the State along with the Forest Service /BLM has been negligent in their duties, ignoring all their Biologist, Zoologist and Ecologists and purposely put 'nature' out of BALANCE? Science is dying... And if we are not more diligent and proactive ... so is hunting.
The intended CRITICAL BALANCE is the elimination of hunting. Eff 'em.
If BHA is standing on the sideline for this, then true hunters and conservationist should not support them.
There are some smart guys here, attorneys etc. What is holding back groups such as RMEF, RMBS, and or the CDOW (as an example) from putting a lawsuit in place which would hold up the introduction if passed citing issues such as endangered species at risk, recovering herds such as sheep and moose etc?
We’ve seen many lawsuits blocking seasons openings for predators what’s stopping hunting organizations from doing the same if it makes it to the ballot and passes?
Same goes for the DOW, they don’t have to comment on it, but if they are opposed to it like we’ve seen with the cat situation what is stopping them from striking a lawsuit blocking introduction based on recovery programs in place?
Wolf track maybe an hour old, BC
Wolf track maybe an hour old, BC
For information sake, the pic is a gray wolf track from BC... notice it is roughly 1/3 the length of my 10.5 sized hiking boot, not to be confused with a chihuahua, coyote or the Rocky Mt Timber Wolf for that matter, the true indigenous species here. The whole SSS with these animals, as previously pointed out, is that if the transplants happen, every animal WILL be chipped and/or collared. Early on, there were cases in Montana where officials had sat images of the hunters in the immediate area when they received the dead signal from a wolfs collar. Critical info used in the prosecution and pretty hard to defend against.
What needs to happen is for the opposition (us) of forced wolf placement to get a fair swing...ie., 'we' (the opposition) should be able to try something like force-placing a pack of wild gray transplant wolves inside the proponents of re-intro's fenced-in property and take away any weapons they might have (since they are also opposed to owning weapons), let their sheep and cattle, dogs and cats and kids out into the containment area, and see how that goes over. Then they'll actually get a taste of the reality they are trying to create. Maybe they will reconsider. Its only fair...
Sounds good trapper we should make sure they get to Estes Park since they put in the initiative that they don't want wolves is Estes park or Rocky mountain national park. I wonder why that is???
Because they're whacked... They shuld put them there FIRST, to restore the natural predator prey relationship in the park like Yellowstone. Thats what they wanted there. Their inconsistency shows their intent clearly.
I'm sad to say my pleas with the NRA have fell on deaf ears so far concerning this issue.
listened to a podcast on this issue today. It’s the Eastman’s Elevated podcast. Brian Barney has Aron Snyder and Guy Eastman on it. Good, informative podcast.
Here’s what happen with the wildlife when you introduce non-native alpha predators...
And, a good reason to eradicate all of them! Aerial gunning, 1080, cyanide, whatever it takes!
Here is the feel good statement from the Initiative 79. "Wolves will only be released on public lands and west of the Continental Divide".
Oh thats reassuring. Actually thats the some of best part of CO. Why not put them in the Denver burbs?
Plenty of slow food sources in downtown Denver.
Will be even easier to catch with the legalized pot and mushrooms.
Dump them in the park next to the capital. I think it’s legal for them to poop in the park and downtown now as well.
Was probably in the historic wolf range.
Lets see here...………….wolves kill everything that we love to hunt soooo...………...kill every wolf you see...…...simple...……..easy...…………...next...…..
MtnOak, you might feel differently if they were planning to release a trainload of big Canadian pack wolves into your part of Kentucky to decimate the whitetail population.....
Next...
When this hits the voters we need to use tree lines info
No doubt boys I don't want them released here in Kentucky but you people just don't understand...………...we the rednecks of this great state would have em all killed within 24 hours of being released...….. 48 hours for sure...…………..but, but, but it's illegal to kill em, i'm a law abiding citizen but im not dang stupid...… if state government tells you to turn over your guns but lets the criminals keep theirs are you gonna do it???....geez boys just kill em if they turn them loose...…………...
MtnOak, great ideas. Oh yeah, we totally understand. Apparently the concept of GPS chips and tracking collars and satellite surveillance haven't made their way to Kentucky yet. Surprised you guys even have dial-up internet.
One thing to sit behind a keyboard with a glass of fine Kentucky bourbon and tell us how Dann'l Boone woulda dun it. Quite another with $20,000 bounties on shooters, federal charges and felonies, lifetime bans on gun ownership and a ban on hunting in 46 states. Never mind the fines, which you school bus drivers and diesel mechanics would need second mortgages to pay off. Robbing banks is much safer and with less to worry about. You should stop giving advice on this topic cause it aint workin' for ya.
Visiting hours in Federal prison are from 1-5 pm. Mama, don't bring the kids 'cause it ain't pretty. "Daddy shot a wolf". Next......
Lou, he's right that it wouldn't happen in his neck of the woods. The land is cut up enough and the hunter density is sufficient that they'd never let it happen/last.
The west, as defined as west of I-25, is a completely different ball game. We have everything to lose, and that goes for Western and Eastern hunters. Eastern tactics are not going to work. But we need Eastern guys in this fight. In fact, I believe that we'll lose without Eastern guys and that includes Texas.
The battle started in California and it's spread to Colorado. We've lost battles in CA, BC, and CO already. We've won battles in Maine and Arizona recently.
We all have to band together - mostly as far as money goes, because money talks. We have to remember that it's the non-hunting non-anti folks that we need to win over because those are the voters that define the destiny of hunting.
We have to band together and pool money or it'll be another loss.
You can only lose so many battles before you lose the war.
Jaquomo: you just don’t get it .....when the law is passed that you’ll be arrested for Helping an old lady cross the street, I’m guessing there’ll be lots of dead and crippled old ladies laying in the road in front of your house...............I wouldn’t have to harm a hair on a wolfs butt, the rest of my neighbors would have em killed faster than lightning can strike.
HH, the ironic thing about the grizz hunt cancellation is that the leader of that national organization with "Hunters" in the name campaigned hard and bundled big PAC money to elect Obama, and now it's Obama's anti-hunting judges who are stopping these hunts.
The experiment in Yellowstone is failing too!!!
^^Aw, that's a shame!!! LOL!^^
When all the elk are gone (like YS), so will the wolves disappear there again. That's how predator/prey relationships work. They'll move to a neighborhood like yours, where the elk are. So why not just let them cross I-70 and move into CO on their own? That's what these idiots don't realize, they will inhabit CO on their own volition with time. How do they think Idaho/WA/Wyo/Or got them? Duh... they didn't force them into those states. CO has been Californicated just like Montana. The politics are screwed there now. A damn shame.
They were released by the truckloads into OR, WY, MT.
The comments at the bottom are mostly from people with absolutely no understanding of reality.
BTW, hunter and firearms purchase taxes payed to bring these wolves in by the truckload...
Talk about a kick in the nuts!
Really sucks that Sierra Club and other groups like them are able to draw money from liberal states with high populations and no connection to the wildlife or land for legal and media blitzes against states with smaller populations to force these kinds of issues.
Then the liberal judges force this crap on the less populous states using taxes and fees from hunters to fund programs aimed at ending hunting... Then claim that wildlife watching is worth more to the economy than hunting??? WTF???
Have a listen to Rinella's podcast a week or so ago with Diane Boyd. It's very interesting to say the least, and gives you a great understanding of wolves (real understanding) and what was going on pre-release in the greater Yellowstone basin.
Here's what happened according to the Idaho Statesman: 20 years ago, 4 wolves were released into Idaho. What if it had never happened? By Rocky Barker January 14, 2015 10:02 AM Released into the Frank Church-River of No Return Wilderness in 1995, Moon Star Shadow was the first Canada wolf reintroduced in Idaho. On Jan. 14, 1995, Moon Star Shadow, a 90-pound, silver-tipped black male, stepped out of his cage at Corn Creek and urinated, marking his new territory in Idaho. He and three other wolves released at the edge of the Frank Church-River of No Return Wilderness were the first of 66 wolves brought to Idaho and Yellowstone National Park from Canada in 1995 and 1996. By 2009, the wolf population had grown to more than 1,500 in Idaho, Montana and Wyoming and today has spread to Washington, Oregon, Utah and even California and Arizona. Congress delisted the populations in Idaho, Montana, northern Utah, eastern Oregon and eastern Washington in 2011, which removed them from protections under the Endangered Species Act and led to wolf-hunting seasons. Today, more than 600 wolves are thought to live in Idaho and the haunting howl of a pack of wolves is an almost common sound in Idaho's backcountry, pleasing the people who pushed to restore them. Idaho hunters and trappers now harvest hundreds of wolves every year, but many complain that traditional elk-hunting areas are no longer as productive because wolves kill, move or stress the big game. Read more here: https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/local/environment/article195333889.html#storylink=cpy
Pretty good discussion - Steve Rinella's podcast... Listening now.
Link provided.
The reality is they don't need to be force-re-intro'd into CO, they will make it there on their own like they did in OR/WA/UT/ID/MT from within the park, and some from outside the Park (YS). They have been radio-tracked far and wide from their original release points, across state lines, well into neighboring states, and established their own packs there. Even suckier are libs like Bloomberg/Soros spending millions to 'elect' a lib prez that will essentially do similar/parallel things as the Sierra Club et.al., , ie, end hunting and weapons ownership with any means they can. Predator re-intro, gun bans, the politics are all geared to do the same: to end hunting and 2A. Bow hunting is not exempt. I think we are all on the same page here.
"They were released by the truckloads into OR, WY, MT."
USFWS hasn't released a single wolf into Oregon; all of them walked in from Idaho or were born here. The same will happen in Colorado, and without a management plan, residents hands are tied.
The rest of the article follows. I will say this for certain: I saw a wolf working its way along in a shortgrass draw just off the Norris Road just past 4 Corners, west of Bozeman in around 1986, way before the YS reintroduction occurred. I believe they were filtering in from the north (Canada?) in the years prior to the big push to re-introduce them. So my opinion is that they need no help establishing populations. I do think they would be far less widespread without re-intro. and the impacts to ranchers and game far less, so IMO, the whole thing should have been left to its own volition, Justas I think CO should be now. That's my position as a federal wildlife biologist. When politics enter in and sides are taken, no one really wins, including the wolf. The article: Ranchers now have the right and the means to kill wolves that attack their livestock, but they remain bitter that they aren't compensated for losses that can't be definitively linked to wolves. Ranchers also say elk and other big game are streaming out of the backcountry to raid their pastures and haystacks as they get away from the wolves.
But what if the federal government had decided not to reintroduce wolves to Idaho and Yellowstone in 1995?
Folks who love wolves would have fewer to see or hear, experts say. And the folks who hate wolves might have fewer options to manage wolves or kill wolves that come into contact with humans and livestock. A MIND OF THEIR OWN
Wolf biologists and managers who led the recovery program that began a decade before the wolves were released agree that Idaho would have wolves today, possibly hundreds, even if the reintroduction had never taken place. But they doubt that Yellowstone National Park - the place the public associates most closely with the new population of wolves - would have a wolf population today without reintroduction.
Wolves were moving on their own from Canada into Montana and Idaho beginning in the 1960s. But a lack of safe corridors for wolves between northwest Montana and Yellowstone would have hindered or stopped natural recolonization of wolves from Canada there. Today, 400 to 450 wolves live in the greater Yellowstone ecosystem.
"There would be wolves in northwest Montana, there would be wolves in central Idaho, but I doubt we would have more than a few (scattered) in Yellowstone," said Ed Bangs, the retired U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service gray wolf recovery coordinator in charge of the reintroduction.
Without a healthy, sustainable wolf population in Yellowstone, there would be no chance of removing wolves in the Northern Rockies from the Endangered Species Act.
With the full force of the federal Endangered Species Act in effect, ranchers would have little flexibility to have wolves killed if they ate livestock on public land, Bangs said. Miners, loggers and recreationists also would have to show their operations didn't harm wolves, a bureaucratic process open to litigation that could lead to more restrictions.
Wolves were reintroduced under a provision within the law that allowed the reintroduction under relaxed rules for an "experimental population." This allowed federal officials to kill wolves that repeatedly attacked livestock and exempted officials from requiring that every federal action in the habitat be shown not to hurt the wolves.
But that approach was based on the premise that there was no wolf population - no breeding pairs - in the areas targeted for reintroduction.
As the wolf population in British Columbia and Alberta grew in the 1980s, several packs showed up in northwest Montana, making that area ineligible for reintroduction. Many wolf sightings also were reported in Idaho.
In 1991, two wolves were seen and even filmed chasing sandhill cranes in Bear Valley Creek meadows between Lowman and Stanley. A Fish and Game warden reported seeing four wolves - confirming in some minds that Idaho had breeding pairs. Bangs and other U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service biologists said that was not enough proof, especially after one wolf was poisoned and another shot.
At the time, conservationists and wolf advocates were mostly interested in returning wolves to Yellowstone, hoping to bring back a critical predator to a natural ecosystem, vast portions of which have no humans, no development and no ranching.
In Idaho, the drive for reintroduction came, remarkably, from Republican U.S. Sen. James McClure.
AN IDAHO PLAN
McClure saw that the return of the wolf to Idaho was inevitable. He wanted to put in place rules that would protect ranchers from the powers of the Endangered Species Act that restrict the killing of depredating wolves and other management. He proposed federallegislation in 1988 that would have reintroduced a few packs and stipulated that no wolves would be allowed to live outside of Yellowstone and Idaho's wildernesses. His bill would have restricted wolf expansion far more tightly than the final reintroduction rules did.
"He wasn't a wolf-lover," said David Mech, the internationally renowned wolf biologist who was one of the early voices for reintroduction.
The Idaho senator not only feared the costs to ranchers if morewolves showed up in Idaho. He saw loggers, miners and recreationists would end up facing stricter limits under the full powers of the federal Endangered Species Act.
Ranchers weren't convinced. Brad Little, who is lieutenant governor today, came from a long line of sheep ranchers. In 1988, he was active with the Idaho Woolgrowers and an opponent to McClure's bill, which went nowhere because of strong opposition from Wyoming ranchers and lawmakers.
"He was pretty darned convinced that his bill would have been far and away superior to what we eventually got," Little said.
The return of wolves has forced Little, like most ranchers, to change the way he operates. He gave up private grazing leases in the Cascade area, due to the rate of depredation on his cattle. But he thinks ranchers in Custer and Lemhi counties that deal with the largest wolf populations have had the hardest time maintaining their livelihoods.
"The central Idaho ranchers are in the same place that the West Coast loggers were with the spotted owl," Little said.
THE SWEET SPOT
Suzanne Stone, now with Defenders of Wildlife, was contracted by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife in the early 1990s to look for wolves in central Idaho. She soon knew how hard life would be for wolves in Idaho then and now.
Biologist Steve Fritts was teaching her to howl in 1991 near Warm Lake east of Cascade. "On my second howl, we literally (had) rifle bullets go over our heads so close I could hear them whistle," Stone said.
She wanted reintroduction to be called augmentation, because she knew wolves already were living in Idaho. But she also believes that if the naturally moving wolves had been given the full protection of the Endangered Species Act we would have wolves in Idaho, Yellowstone and at least Wyoming without reintroduction.
Bangs said the wolf recovery program today would not be as divisive had the delisting occurred several years earlier, before wolf populations had reached their peak and affected so much livestock and big game.
"We lost the hunting constituency because of that," he said.
Steve Alder, who heads Idaho for Wildlife, the group that sponsored this month's derby hunting wolves and coyotes in Salmon, agrees.
"From our perspective, (the delay in delisting) really got people rallied," Alder said.
Mech said ranchers showed remarkable patience as wolf numbers climbed far above the 350 that federal authorities saidwould be necessary before wolves could be removed from Endangered Species Act protections. But he is disappointed that voices on the edges of the debate have polarized the politics and the courts.
"I think this has worked extremely well," Mech said. "I'm dismayed at some of the fallout from both sides."
Bangs, who watched as those first wolves ran into the Idaho wilderness in 1995, thinks biologists "hit the sweet spot" - in the political middle.
"Both sides need each other," Bangs said. "The wolf haters need the rabid wolf lovers."
SO WHAT ENDED UP HAPPENING?
Wolves captured in northern Alberta were released at the beginning of 1995, after a federal judge lifted a temporary restraining order that had halted the proposed reintroduction.
In Idaho, the 35 wolves were simply released from cages into the wild.
In Yellowstone, packs that had been captured together were kept in enclosures to allow the animals to acclimate to their new environs. The enclosures were opened in March and the wolves reluctantly left to take over their new home. More wolves were released in 1996.
From the beginning, Idaho's great wolf habitat - lots of undeveloped spaces and lots of food such as elk and moose - mean that the wolf population grew faster here than anywhere else. By 2001, the Idaho population had reached the 10 to 15 breeding pairs that federal biologists said was necessary for recovery.
After years of debate, lawsuits and failed efforts to remove Idaho wolves from protections under the Endangered Species Act, Idaho Congressman Mike Simpson added a rider to a fast-track federal budget bill in 2011 that inserted language to allow the states of Idaho and Montana to manage wolves in their states and authorize hunting seasons.
Rocky Barker: 377-6484
Read more here: https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/local/environment/article195333889.html#storylink=cpy
The delay in delisting is what caused the widespread wolf population establishments into OR/WA, and other states beyond ID/MT. My position mirrors that of these two guys: "Bangs said the wolf recovery program today would not be as divisive had the delisting occurred several years earlier, before wolf populations had reached their peak and affected so much livestock and big game". "We lost the hunting constituency because of that," he said. And: 'Steve Alder, who heads Idaho for Wildlife, the group that sponsored this month's derby hunting wolves and coyotes in Salmon, agrees. "From our perspective, (the delay in delisting) really got people rallied," Alder said.'
in 2016 I got a good look at a female wolf with half grown pups, while hunting elk in buffalo peaks wilderness unit 49; saw and photographed tracks in other parts of the unit.they are there and have been stocked by fws without authorization or approval. it happens..and I talked to some sheep hunters who saw wolves there too.
The Universities were dropping wolves long before 1990. They had plenty of experience as they did the same with coyotes in the Northeast.
They were dropping em in WV clandestine for years before 1981.
Subaru prolly donated 50 million to The Wof in CO.
H
hey guys,
The one advantage is that the huge herds on private will be pushed and dispersed, but it's going to hit the elk herd hard once they're established in the Routt/White River areas. You might have a better shot at killing a cow in the wilderness eventually, but the private land folks and outfitters are going to be hit hard.
thanks:)
From what is happening in Wyoming, I don’t think that will be the case, sahil.
Wolf population control on public land is limited in the GYE of Wyoming. Very few wolves are actually removed from the populations on public lands.
Private land owners in Wyoming are protecting their livestock, out there year round and kill wolves any time they get a chance on their property. This creates a lower predator population on the private lands than the surrounding public lands.
More elk go to the private ranches to avoid the wolves in the National Forest.
Travis is abosolutly correct. They will Gather on public herds , eat those and nibble on the fringes of the private land elk. Where, these land owners shoot the heck out of them. Same in other states. Sure some will eat some private land elk but these ranches keep seeing more and more on there oats , wheat and alfalfa every year in big herds. Sheep herders shoot the chit out of them as well on private.
If you love elk, elk hunting then killing the wolf is just a thing which goes with that. Read a little Roosevelt. Coursing wolves on horseback was a thing he liked very much. Yep, the man would turn in his grave if he knew what these Subaru wolfers did to his Yellowstone!
Kana
Just out of curiosity...where is the cash flush RMEF on this? Are they doing any public awareness, spending any money to combat the problem or putting their lobbyists to work? Seems like they should have deep pockets for this...Hey RMEF where are you?
They’re spending their money on hunting down Bigfoot. Addressing the most credible threat first.
If anyone was stocking wolves in 1990, it must’ve been the CIA...
Really GF , tell us more.
Would love to get a pack of fast dogs and course some wolves in open country on horseback.
H
