Contributors to this thread:
They've posted the proposed draw changes on their "get involved" link. What they have done is leave the Elk app period as it was; Jan 1 - Jan 31, moved the change date to May 8, and moved the results date to coincide with the Deer/Antelope draw.
So, if you wanted an early app date, it's still there, you just won't be getting results until June.
I was told WYOGA convinced them to just move the results date. Seems like a good way to make sure your clients don't apply to other states.
"Seems like a good way to make sure your clients don't apply to other states. " ... why, yes, it does. Amazing how so much of politics can be explained by graft.
What a total crock of sh!t. I love Wyo but this pisses me off.
Yea, I was told to be on the lookout for it. It solves the dept problem of nr/res allocation changes but in turn, screws both those that wanted either an early or late draw.
Anything to keep WYOGA happy!
Online comment link....
So the WGF will be able to keep the license fees for 4 + months???
The allocation changes....is that allocating number of tags for a given unit?
In theory with the old dates a unit could have a serious downturn and require tags to be reduced. So a guy could have been holding a "tag" in February only to find out in June that there is not as many tags to go around as what was originally thought?
Is that what drove the change?
I cant wait to cash in my points there and be done with Wyoming.
The NR allocations are done in December for the Feb drawing, then in April they set the actual allocations. If there was a reduction, those came from residents. Those resident reductions were in violation of statute and caused the dept to increase the resident allocations after the fact. To fix that, it was proposed that the Feb NR Elk draw be moved to coincide with the Deer/Antelope draw. That Feb draw was created at the behest of the outfitters, so their clients would be first in line before other states. They signed off on the proposed later draw proposal provided the app period was open in January. Watching the commission meeting, it was my understanding that app period would be open January but would remain open along with the Deer/Antelope app periods, and results would all be in June.
Evidently I was mistaken, or the outfitters got to the dept and convinced them to close the app period Jan 31 so their clients would be locked in before they could apply to other states. By moving the modify/change period to May 8, and results to June, the dept will solve the res/nr allocation problem. Closing the app period in January forces the outfitted clients to apply before any other state opens.
I liked the idea of the later draw but this proposal, as written, is a bad deal for everybody.
Wow. Just wow all around.
Wow! Next thing you know they'll close off certain federal public lands to non-residents.
That is rotten. Probably wishful thinking to hope this will drive down apps.
I love Wyoming and they typically treat NRs pretty well but this is bad. I’m with you on hoping it’ll drive down apps, which I think it will, but it’s harder now to plan for a hunt...not to mention that they’re keeping your money for 4 months before you ever find out if you’re going or not
Definitely some outfitter 'gargling' going on in Wyoming
Ridiculous that they'll keep our money that long.
Seems like a good way to make some extra $ in interest lol. While we pay the c- card co’s interest as well.
I couldn't find the "Results" date for elk, deer or antelope.
The online comment link posted earlier brings me directly to their homepage.
In Colorado, per statute, the CPW cant keep any 'interest money' gained from the license application period
Is Wyo the same?
Good luck njbuck. I wish another 2000 guys would think like that. I only need to see the word successful in time to know if I should apply for deer. But if I can’t have that I’ll just decide early in the year. That’ll only be a problem once every 7 years since that’s how many points it takes to draw the deer tag.
First impression....that's probably the worst possible scenario, from strictly an applicant standpoint. It was bad enough to take away the 1st-state-of-the-year position for Wyoming NR elk results. But I could've lived with it, if it came to that, mainly on the hope that draw odds would get better with a later application period. A later app period might have resulted in more points-only apps, and less guys applying for hunts.
I know the resource comes first of course. But I would think Wyoming will lose a lot of NR applicants with any change that moves their results posting out past other competing state's app deadlines.
I think this completely sucks. I'm happy to tell them too, but I don't see where to go in Wapatibob's link. Anyone else having a tough time finding the right spot to put in an opinion about it online?
This will take you to the comment section. Somebody can turn it into a link if you'd like.
See a spike coming in “Dr. excuse” refund requests.
so does the Modify app till may 8 let u go in and delete your app if u decide to change? or what changes will be allowed?
Yeah, that'll completely defeat the purpose of having the app period and the draw so far apart if you can just draw AZ or NM and then delete your app. It's really ridiculous anyways as WY is not hurting for NR apps... Every last NR tag is still going to fill no matter when they have the app period.
I'm just glad I drew this year...What a mess!
I still couldn't get to the comment section of the proposal so I just e-mailed them. I liked the early draw and would have been okay with the later draw since there were legitimate reasons to push things back. Whadya know, they found a worse solution. This is a pure sellout.
To get to the comments section..... From the main Wyo Game & Fish page, click on "GET INVOLVED" under the green "PUBLIC ACCESS" button. From that page, click on "Public Comments/Meetings". View Chapter 44 contains the proposed changes discussed in this thread.
Thanks Midwest. My comments are in.
Charge upfront for the application.
If and when draw a tag charge for the tag.
When buy preference point charge for it at that time.
Seems to straight forward and upfront than all this money in limbo for months and the add on credit card fees neither one of these issues a benefit to either party involved.
Must have to be this way just because it’s government. Just make it right Wyoming Game and Fish.
Comments provided...for what good it will likely do.
It appears you can withdraw the app until May 8. I don't know how easy of a process that is or if there is a cost. I did leave a comment on the website.
I commented as well. Absolutely regret not going for the tag this year.
Or could an application be changed in May to a unit that the applicant knows he has a very low chance of drawing? Wyoming outfitters have the biggest scam going of any state I know. Outrageous!
You can withdraw, change hunt areas, or change hunt choices. They refund the license fee, keep $5, and I thought they kept the app fee last time I withdrew but I haven't seen that written anywhere.
Not as nice as old application period but really not that bad. You have until May 8th to change or delete your application so plenty of time to adjust for other states draws. Some state's results are after May 8th but not all. Holding the money is pretty lame but applying these days in multiple states is a lot easier then it was years ago.
Wow, what a pita this has turned into. I don’t suspect this will stay in place for too long. I thought Colorado was bad but Wyoming definitely just took first place in the $h!t show!
I left feedback yesterday... Doesn't have to be that hard, move the deadline back, set the NR and Res deadlines to mirror each other, etc... Pretty classless act on behalf of the WYOGA - wish I could say I'm surprised...
Comments added by me too. I wasn't very nice...
I always prefer the direct approach.
WY is what it is. I wish someone had a pic they could post of the NR questionaire that went out 5 or 6 years ago maybe more AND the 2nd one a couple years ago.
Questions designed to get the most $$$$ from NR. Things like: Would you pay more for better draw odds?
That mailer made their intentions clear. I am lucky I can afford to apply and this helps me hunt there more - but I will will never agree it is fair and ethical.
I also then predicted the landslide of other Rocky mnt sates following.
To many lemmings saying. "elk tags are the same as other states". Retarded. I have read that hear when states raise tag & app fees many times.
If everyone raised the price of a gallon of milk to $100 does that make it ok?
They cannot loose. Increase app fees 10x and 1/2 the apps drop out - 5x the money for 1/2 the work.
Are there any elk states left that have not followed WY with app fees? I think the last few folded and NR are now paying 1 or 10 times what we need a decade ago - yet expenses and inflation are not remotely close to 10x higher.
Ah well they can't take away the splendor of the back country.
Don, DFWs have no right to complain about decreasing hunter numbers and the political threat to hunting if they keep pricing people out of it...
If they changed the elk/deer/antelope quotas to 90/10 res/ nr they’d make more money so it’s not always about $$$.
I'm sure it is just a coincidence that the date to modify an elk application is one day prior to the moose results coming out. They wouldn't want a successful moose applicant to withdraw an elk application would they?
Pay to play, just depends on where you want to play...
Wyoming is the only place I want to hunt elk. If this makes draw odds better then I’ll deal and live with the late draw results.
Same here Mossy. I'll just keep playing their game until I run out of hunting fitness or hunting $. It's just not worth the mental energy to be outraged when Wyo G&F makes changes for the benefit of either their residents or the outfitters. As long as I have a tag opportunity within my budget, I'm good. I use all my outrage on the self-serving politicians in my own state that stick their agendas into wildlife conservation for the benefit of a few wealthy ranchers and even non-resident landowners.
I feel the same way. I’m not going anywhere. If you really want to hunt figure out new ways to play the game. I have a handful of people that want to hunt elk but not every year. I tell them all to buy points. Then when I don’t have what I need to draw I see who has points and wants to hunt. Pretty simple. Next year I’ll have zero points and a guaranteed license. My co-applicants have 11each.
Not digging June results.
How many of those that like the current trend of elk hunting application costs and methods are under 40 years old? In another 20 years what does everyone think western elk hunting will look like? Expense vs opportunity. Thanks.
I have said for years and years that I just play the hand dealt me by my Non-ressy application states.
If I don't like the new changes I simply don't apply any more and move onward.
If this goes thru, I can see many more than already do use Application Services going the Application Service route so it is their $$$ tied up for 5-6 months.....
Good luck, Robb
Idiotic on so many levels
I’m with you Robb. I don’t like the change anymore than the rest of us but I roll with the punches. I’m a “cup is half full” kinda guy. The licensing systems and prices sure have changed over the years but the hunting is better than ever.
Good luck, Joe
The one thing I have learned in life is you can bet on things changing. Whether it be your job, technology or the hunt application process. Change is inevitable. Roll with the punches. (That doesn't mean I like change though!)
I'm glad that we've evolved from paper applications. But for a draw that should only take a week or two having to wait over 4 months is ridiculous.
Someday in the future, I hope that draws only take a couple of days. Then applying for out of state hunts won't be so much like gambling.
Thanks Midwest. I added my comment. I mostly told them that planning several weeks off in September is very difficult if we aren't notified until June. I hate that about Idaho's late notification date. Keep in mind that Alaska's draw results come out in mid February and Arizona's come out in early March (by watching for credit card charges).
Many of my co-workers already had to submit vacation requests for the year. This would really hurt them (like it does if they apply in Idaho). Hate to see hard working folks get worked over.
This is the latest and I got confirmed today:
App period Jan 1 - 31;
Change period closes May 8; after WY season/quotas are set, and after AZ and NM results are posted;
Results will "tentatively" be out before the Antelope/Deer app deadline of May 31. Not sure why they don't have a date, maybe waiting for the Commission meeting to hash it out based on public comments.
Man that’s a long time to hold the $$
I was fully behind moving the Elk draw to coincide with Deer/Antelope but these convoluted dates are messed up.
Some guy at Wy G&F is leaning back in his office thinking these NR are so much fun to mess with!
I don't understand that app period at all when the change date is clear up to May 8. Can't think of a single good reason why they would do that. Pisses me off.
Public comment period is open till June 15. Commission members can be found here: https://wgfd.wyo.gov/About-Us/Game-and-Fish-Commission/Meet-the-Commissioners
No worries. Wolves will be in charge of elk management statewide soon enough.
When I get spam email from outfitters I always reply with a note to advocate for NR DIY hunters. My most recent email to a very prominent outfitter was regarding this issue. He straight-up said it’s because they want to be the first state so they can lock in NR applications and get their money. I think it’s complete BS.
I also emailed all of the commissioners individually. Some agreed with my perspective, others didn’t.
The outfitters have a lot of pull so I’d be very surprised if what WB posted doesn’t happen. Being the first state helps them lock in clients.
This is the worst of all worlds for NR hunters. Having a draw that coincided with the residents was going to be an advantage for us. Now we don’t get that and they keep our money for months.
Although it's nice having an early application and results date for nonres it also can be a real bummer. The Wyo resident elk deadline is after season and unit changes are available to the public. The isn't currently available to nonres until after the nonres elk revision deadline.
A couple good reasons for a later revision date is the ability to change units after the new regulation and season dates are available for the upcoming year. A 2nd reason would be if someone has a conflict and wants to change units with different season dates. Health, work, or vacation issues, etc.
Jims those arguments may have validity, but it would seem difficult to rationalize making NR apply in January, when the NR draw will not be conducted until late May. Unless it's a case of overt kow-towing to the outfitter lobby. Nah.....surely not in Wyoming ;-)
I believe it is relatively stupid having a draw and revision deadline for nonresident elk prior to being aware of any changes in seasons and units for the upcoming year. Obviously Wyo Outfitters could care less and want first dibs on clients that may hunt other states! Pretty weird that nonres go into the elk drawing blind of what seasons and units are available for the upcoming year!
You also have to buy your points in the fall even if you don’t draw in the spring? I’m betting a lot of people forget to buy their points or don’t realize they didn’t get a point for not drawing...time to cash in my points on a general tag and screw Wyoming...
I've toyed with this viewpoint before.....IMO, the various hunting organizations should be collectively using their stroke to get these high cost states to start lowering their NR prices. P&Y, B&C, SCI, RMEF, AMO, NRA, hunting magazines/shows/hunting celebs, etc, should be advocating for all potential NR's. Especially since their membership/readers/viewers are made up of folks from across the country and have a vested interest in this ongoing issue.
JL, while I'm a member of most of those organizations, there's no organisation that represents the DIY middle class guy on that list, save maybe RMEF. Lets face it: outfitter money runs the show - look no further than the current BS in WY and Utah/Don Peay. Money talks, BS walks.
That's just not going to happen. The only organization that speaks for the DIY public land hunter is BHA who are so demonized here for their apparently leftist lean.
Whether you're DYI or outfitted....I'm thinking you're still a NR (usually) and (usually) getting slammed by these high NR license costs. From my perspective.....I see no reason why these groups I mentioned above should not be advocating for their members/viewers. They could individually or collectively address this issue with abusive NR license costs. It would be to their PR benefit if they did that for their membership/viewers.
My 2 cents... Wyoming may see a dip in the number of applicants the first year. Maybe 2 years. Then it’ll be back to normal. The reason is because people like to be able to make solid plans early in the year. So if you don’t have enough points to guarantee the WY license you want you may sit on your points and gain one and go with Montana or an otc state and come back to Wyoming in a year or two when you can submit the application and firm up your time off of work and other arrangements.
Common sense tells you that as long as we can remember there have been more hunters than licenses so Wyoming isn’t too worried about starving. This elk junkie will always be back for more.
Seems ridiculous to not extend the application period but the outfitters and guides have driven those decisions for decades so I’m not surprised... and yes finding out if you drew a tag in mid-June stinks imho. Hard to make a plan on that short notice but I’ve managed to do it but it’s certainly easier if you live here.
"So if you don’t have enough points to guarantee the WY license you want you may sit on your points and gain one" I was thinking and plan to do this exact thing. No way I'm fronting the money until I know for sure I'll draw.
gil_wy: the late draw also extends the leftover notification to July 11. I guess I need to retire so planning the hunt would be simpler.
I'm not a fan of the late draw dates but could live with it. But... having the app period close in Jan. is ridiculous. I not only put in for myself, but also my son. Them wanting to hold onto up to $2500 of my money for 5 months is a LOT to ask IMHO.
Nice to see you back Cory!