Sitka Mountain Gear
CO; Bye Bye OTC
Elk
Contributors to this thread:
trophyhill 12-Jun-19
txhunter58 12-Jun-19
cnelk 12-Jun-19
Vonfoust 12-Jun-19
kentuckbowhnter 12-Jun-19
KHunter 12-Jun-19
yooper89 12-Jun-19
Franklin 12-Jun-19
trophyhill 12-Jun-19
elkstabber 12-Jun-19
Stix 12-Jun-19
Grasshopper 12-Jun-19
standswittaknife 12-Jun-19
Grasshopper 12-Jun-19
Jaquomo 12-Jun-19
coelker 12-Jun-19
fubar racin 12-Jun-19
Mule Power 12-Jun-19
pav 12-Jun-19
wildwilderness 12-Jun-19
Jaquomo 12-Jun-19
LINK 12-Jun-19
Grasshopper 12-Jun-19
Jaquomo 12-Jun-19
COHOYTHUNTER 12-Jun-19
Mule Power 12-Jun-19
Stix 12-Jun-19
fubar racin 12-Jun-19
otcWill 12-Jun-19
Grasshopper 12-Jun-19
Glunt@work 12-Jun-19
Franklin 12-Jun-19
otcWill 12-Jun-19
Jaquomo 12-Jun-19
fubar racin 12-Jun-19
cnelk 12-Jun-19
otcWill 12-Jun-19
Dirk Diggler 12-Jun-19
midwest 12-Jun-19
Stix 12-Jun-19
trophyhill 12-Jun-19
Glunt@work 12-Jun-19
Ambush 12-Jun-19
badbull 12-Jun-19
IdyllwildArcher 12-Jun-19
fubar racin 12-Jun-19
cnelk 12-Jun-19
Surfbow 12-Jun-19
IdyllwildArcher 12-Jun-19
Grasshopper 12-Jun-19
Grasshopper 12-Jun-19
Red Sparky 12-Jun-19
cnelk 12-Jun-19
Jaquomo 12-Jun-19
Franklin 13-Jun-19
Bowhunter 13-Jun-19
IdyllwildArcher 13-Jun-19
TreeWalker 13-Jun-19
trophyhill 13-Jun-19
COHOYTHUNTER 13-Jun-19
cnelk 13-Jun-19
Billyvanness 13-Jun-19
cnelk 13-Jun-19
elkstabber 13-Jun-19
Treeline 13-Jun-19
COHOYTHUNTER 13-Jun-19
Surfbow 13-Jun-19
Franklin 13-Jun-19
kadbow 13-Jun-19
Franklin 13-Jun-19
trophyhill 13-Jun-19
Jaquomo 13-Jun-19
Franklin 13-Jun-19
pav 13-Jun-19
Treeline 13-Jun-19
Jaquomo 13-Jun-19
IdyllwildArcher 13-Jun-19
IdyllwildArcher 13-Jun-19
fubar racin 13-Jun-19
Jaquomo 13-Jun-19
Lost Arra 13-Jun-19
Brotsky 13-Jun-19
Franklin 13-Jun-19
Jaquomo 13-Jun-19
Brotsky 13-Jun-19
kentuckbowhnter 13-Jun-19
grossklw 13-Jun-19
Glunt@work 13-Jun-19
Jaquomo 13-Jun-19
Retired-11-2000 13-Jun-19
Retired-11-2000 13-Jun-19
WV Mountaineer 13-Jun-19
wifishkiller 13-Jun-19
Franklin 13-Jun-19
Jaquomo 13-Jun-19
Franklin 13-Jun-19
IdyllwildArcher 13-Jun-19
fubar racin 13-Jun-19
kentuckbowhnter 13-Jun-19
Surfbow 14-Jun-19
Franklin 14-Jun-19
Jahvada 14-Jun-19
South Farm 14-Jun-19
fubar racin 14-Jun-19
SoDakSooner 14-Jun-19
fubar racin 14-Jun-19
kentuckbowhnter 14-Jun-19
IdyllwildArcher 14-Jun-19
South Farm 14-Jun-19
Jaquomo 14-Jun-19
Danbow 14-Jun-19
Jaquomo 14-Jun-19
Glunt@work 15-Jun-19
Jaquomo 15-Jun-19
Danbow 15-Jun-19
Jaquomo 15-Jun-19
txhunter58 15-Jun-19
txhunter58 15-Jun-19
Danbow 15-Jun-19
Franklin 15-Jun-19
Jaquomo 15-Jun-19
fubar racin 15-Jun-19
Franklin 15-Jun-19
txhunter58 15-Jun-19
Glunt@work 15-Jun-19
trophyhill 15-Jun-19
From: trophyhill
12-Jun-19
Saw on another forum where the CPW, with the support of the CBA, is looking to do away with OTC tags, and extremely limit NR tags as well as move first rifle up. What's really going on in CO? Is this the precursor to the inevitable wolf introduction?

From: txhunter58
12-Jun-19
Not true. If you want the true story read this:

https://forums.bowsite.com/tf/regional/thread.cfm?threadid=246134&messages=26&state=CO

and this:

https://forums.bowsite.com/tf/regional/thread.cfm?threadid=246145&messages=52&state=Co

From: cnelk
12-Jun-19
And the 'Fake News' hits Bowsite

From: Vonfoust
12-Jun-19
I can't imagine CO giving up the cash cow that is the OTC NR license.

12-Jun-19
If they raise NR tags costs by 25% and cuts total NR tags by 20% they should have a net gain in revenue.

From: KHunter
12-Jun-19
Thanks txhunter58. I was not sure where to start to point out how badly the OP mischaracterized things.

From: yooper89
12-Jun-19
I can’t believe it. I can’t believe CPW picked Alternative 6- no more OTC, no more elk hunting in Colorado.

From: Franklin
12-Jun-19
Kentucky....that only works if the numbers stayed the same. They won`t. Raise NR tags 25% and you will see a big drop off in NR tags being purchased. This idea has been tried in other states and failed.

People are looking for a reason to not spend their hard earned money in Colorado...give them another excuse not to.

From: trophyhill
12-Jun-19
Lol fake news

From: elkstabber
12-Jun-19
Colorado should probably limit NR elk OTC tags but that is going to be hard to do.

Let's say you own a business. You have two customers. Customer R is 25% of your income and customer NR is 75% of your income. Customer R asks you to quit doing business with customer NR. Would you quit doing business with your biggest customer NR?

From: Stix
12-Jun-19
Take the CPW survey here to let them know your preferences:

https://www.research.net/r/JP8Z868

FYI, the option to keep otc tags. Is alternative #1.

Altetnative. #2 changes to all draw.

Alter alternatives# 3 & 4 are no longer being considered I am told.

Let your voices be heard!

From: Grasshopper
12-Jun-19

Grasshopper's Link
Where did the original fake news come from?

Here is the CBA's written testimony to CPW. Look at the Appendixes, Alternative 5 was the best option but the PWC will not entertain any discussions of allocation at this time. They may in the future, and they need to.

12-Jun-19
Took the survey.. thx

From: Grasshopper
12-Jun-19

Grasshopper's Link
Did you get the info on the CBA survey? We emailed to our members https://drive.google.com/open?id=19kqsfo_Q-qwXcT7_3EC3zuuCCd9dHbqv_PuU8_aYB60

From: Jaquomo
12-Jun-19
Listen to the recording of last week's Commission meeting on the link in the linked thread on the CO forum. The Colorado Wildlife Federation really threw bowhunters under the bus. He is a ML. Grasshopper and Paul@thefort did a great job with their testimony on behalf of bowhunters.

From: coelker
12-Jun-19
At what time did the The Colorado Wildlife Federation speak? I would like to skip to that time...

From: fubar racin
12-Jun-19
Franklin is that failing evidenced by pretty much every state being significantly more expensive than Colorado and still selling out of tags?

From: Mule Power
12-Jun-19
I heard Wyoming is going otc.

From: pav
12-Jun-19
I heard Wyoming is going otc.....but you must purchase tags before January 31st..LOL!

12-Jun-19
I heard Utah will start auctioning off every big game tag to the highest bidder at the expo...... but you must me a member of $FW to participate!

From: Jaquomo
12-Jun-19
Coelker, it was right after Grasshopper and Paul, following the CPW presentation. The CWF rep was Kent Ingram, former CPW Commissioner.

From: LINK
12-Jun-19

LINK's Link
Here’s the link to the meeting recording.

From: Grasshopper
12-Jun-19
Kent was never on the commission. He was on the license allocation working group back in 2005ish or so.

Everyone, including Kent seems to be grasping at a bowhunter particpation level of 50,000 which is totally inaccurate. Shame on CPW for putting out inaccurate data. The real numbers are 35,000 otc, and 6525 limited. There are B list cow tags, but unitl I get a report showing different, those are the same hunters and should not be double counted.

From: Jaquomo
12-Jun-19
Franklin, the CPW bean counters have sophisticated models to predict the willingness-to-pay threshold. I studied it in college. They tested it with the most recent increases on residents and on the PP/WP charges. No report yet on the results, but there is no evidence anyone is looking for reasons to not spend money in CO, for anything. I so wish that were true, but its not.

WY has tested it several times recently on nonresidents and each time they raise prices, demand increases.

At the big private trout fishery I manage, we tested the threshold by raising daily fees by raising daily fees by 35%, hoping to reduce participation by 25%. Instead, participation increased.

From: COHOYTHUNTER
12-Jun-19
Its psychology and perceived value.. meaning if a price of something gets raised it perceived it has more value and is worth the higher cost and is also... it actually changes supply and demand models.. for instance if the CPW was hurting for non resident hunters, they might drive the price way down to get more participants, however that might create the reverse affect as people might start thinking 'what is going on in Colorado, does hunting suck' 'I'll go to Wyoming and pay more but it must be better if it costs more' .. The reality is the CPW could drop NR allocation to 20% and increase license fees to make up the difference in revenue and still get plenty of NR's to apply or buy OTC.. But they are afraid that may not work and might go the other direction.

From: Mule Power
12-Jun-19
Lou... Colorado could save some money by using a Wyoming special draw elk tag for their “how far will elk hunters bend over” study.

From: Stix
12-Jun-19
Take the CPW survey here to let them know your preferences:

https://www.research.net/r/JP8Z868

FYI, the option to keep otc tags. Is alternative #1.

Altetnative. #2 changes to all draw.

Alter alternatives# 3 & 4 are no longer being considered I am told.

Let your voices be heard!

From: fubar racin
12-Jun-19
I feel like saying alt 1 is keeping otc tags with no more info givin is somewhat misleading. Yes it’s otc but it’s also a shortened season with the possibility of going to partial draw only tags.

From: otcWill
12-Jun-19
Everyone I've talked to to prefers option 2. I hope it all goes to draw

From: Grasshopper
12-Jun-19
Will you change your name to limitedwill?

From: Glunt@work
12-Jun-19
I'll take what we get but I won't sign off on it. Crappy "solutions" weren't necessary.

From: Franklin
12-Jun-19
When Montana jacked their NR tags through the roof is when I left and never looked back. You can do all the silly studies you want but if you raise ANYTHING by 25% consumers will be turned off and look elsewhere.

If any of you have your own business try raising your prices by 25% and tell us how that is working out for you....lol

From: otcWill
12-Jun-19
I'll change my name to Willkilloneregardless ;)

From: Jaquomo
12-Jun-19
Franklin, as I said, we raised our daily fishing permit prices by 35% and now sell more than ever before. If there's a perceived value.. WY raised their NR prices way up and still have point creep, even for general tags.

From: fubar racin
12-Jun-19
That’s when you left franklin but like I said they still sell out every year....

From: cnelk
12-Jun-19
I’d like to know why many would want all limited elk tags.

C’mon. Give the reasons

From: otcWill
12-Jun-19
Crowding

From: Dirk Diggler
12-Jun-19
The ability to manage the number of hunters in a given unit. Probably put a small dent in point creep as well.

From: midwest
12-Jun-19
"If any of you have your own business try raising your prices by 25% and tell us how that is working out for you....lol "

The company I work for did just that in order to try and slow demand. Didn't work so we had to just start no bidding requests for quotes and pick out only the work we really wanted.

But elk aren't a business....they're a public resource.

From: Stix
12-Jun-19
Be careful what you wish for,... you just might get it..

Conrad D. circa 2002

From: trophyhill
12-Jun-19
I beg to differ Midwest. Elk, deer, sheep etc are huge business. And game departments are part of and on the front lines of this business. Unfortunately for CO the parks dept found its way in to g&f and funds are being funneled out of the dept. That's most worrisome.......

From: Glunt@work
12-Jun-19
If we go 100% limited, they will likely set the tags at current numbers. That results in the same amount of folks in the woods, just less flexibility for bowhunters losing OTC. If they reduce tags enough to make a noticeable difference in pressure (say 25% - 50%?), that means a big revenue hit that needs to be made up from a smaller pool of hunters. It also means 25%-50% of bowhunters who would otherwise like to be chasing elk in CO will not be.

If they cut tags a little, we skip a year every now and then but the small trade off in pressure may not be worth what we lost.

Helping herds out isn't a factor since rifle would still be OTC and thats where numbers, bull-to-cow ratios and trophy quality are controlled.

From: Ambush
12-Jun-19
Glunt, are you saying rifle OTC and archery all draw? How does that shake out?

From: badbull
12-Jun-19
Stix......Thanks for the survey info.........badbull

12-Jun-19
I can't believe they're thinking of ADDING another rifle season. There's already 4 rifle seasons. Now elk will be hunted during the rut and into the migration. This is why elk quality in CO is so far behind places like WY. The tags should be LE, the archery season in Sept, and the rifle season in Oct and give the bulls a damn break in Nov so a few of them can get older than 4.

From: fubar racin
12-Jun-19
Ambush seems like the objective of the cpw since Iv been old enough to pay attention is take from archery give to rifle.

From: cnelk
12-Jun-19
For those that want limited archery elk ...

I went thru the 2019 stats and there are currently 16 GMUs that can be drawn with ZERO PPs.

If you want limited tags [crowding, managing hunters/etc], are you applying/hunting one of those 16 units?

Let me guess. I bet not.

From: Surfbow
12-Jun-19
"People are looking for a reason to not spend their hard earned money in Colorado..."

Maybe a couple, but not the vast majority...

12-Jun-19
Yeah, but Brad, they give out so many tags in those units in relation to the herds, that they wouldn't have many more hunters in them if they were on the OTC list...

I think the people that want all these units to be on a draw also want the amount of hunters to also be less than they currently are and that'd include the lower teir draw units.

From: Grasshopper
12-Jun-19

From: Grasshopper
12-Jun-19
Oops...Nevermind, I do not want to influence our current survey. My apologies.

From: Red Sparky
12-Jun-19
Never hunted CO but from what I understand they manage for opportunity and not trophy class. With the hunting back east going into leases and private land the demand to hunt will outnumber the opportunity to hunt. That is why so many NR's I bet are from back east and those that didn't draw in the western states. States will always sell all their tags. Here in NM leftover tags go on sale June 26th and there are only four mobility impaired elk tags. Quite a few youth antelope tags and it seems every deer tag is an archery tag. They will sell those pretty easily. There will always be enough people to buy tags, no matter the cost. Look at land owner tags here.

From: cnelk
12-Jun-19
Idyl

Not all those units had a 100% Draw with 0 PPs. But ALL of them had a chance to draw with 0 PPs, which aligns with what Grasshopper mentioned above.

From: Jaquomo
12-Jun-19
Trophyhill, if the funds from hunting revenue are being funneled out into Parks, it will be the biggest and most complex secret conspiracy in history, with hundreds of people involved in cooking the books and keeping rhe secrets, all the way to the Governor and the State Legislature.

From: Franklin
13-Jun-19
Elk ARE a business to the state of Colorado.

What are you going to say the guys that have invested in the preference points system. Jacking the tag price 25% would be akin to extortion.

You guys in Colorado have screwed up your state....please don`t screw up the elk hunting.

From: Bowhunter
13-Jun-19

13-Jun-19
Brad, what do you mean by that? I know the stats, but I don't understand what it really has to do with anything. You have X amount of hunters and X amount of tags. There's either too many hunters or there isn't. With more hunters and less hunting quality, the demand for the unit goes down. No matter the unit, you can increase the amount of tags available to the point that no one will want them.

Franklin, please stop calling out your fellow hunters and conservatives for ruining anything. No one's vote on this board is worth any more than a San Francisco tranny PETA vegan. Your ridiculous logic that outnumbered conservatives hold the blame for being outvoted is ridiculous, especially because it's hypocritical from you coming from a state that voted for Obama not once, but twice.

From: TreeWalker
13-Jun-19
Keep in mind as any of us confidently declare how MT and WY were able to raise prices and demand increased that we are nearing the end of a 10-year economic growth cycle and the economy will get sluggish resulting in lost jobs and lower profits.

As for WY specifically, quite a few NR I know are trying to burn off their relatively inexpensively built up points the prior decade for elk and deer and then get out of the WY game except for maybe pronghorn if it stays inexpensive and can lead to a good tag in a handful of years. Of course, as the price to apply and price for points go up it is natural that someone with a lot of points does not just walk away that year but will hang around a year or two to flush the points.

Another factor for every state wanting to sell big game licenses is that the average age of the big game hunter is getting older and recruitment of youth is lagging. The decline in participation in draws over the next two decades will hit every F&G department out West.

From: trophyhill
13-Jun-19
Jaq, so maybe that was a poor choice of words. However we all know the parks dept was broke until it was merged with the CDOW. Conspiracy?

From: COHOYTHUNTER
13-Jun-19
Franklin... get ready b/c I bet the preference point game is the next thing to be 'adjusted'.. it will most certainly piss a lot of people off, but nothing ever said the pp system would last forever. Actually its gonna be a little fun to watch some of these guys that have been saving points like it's their retirement plan lose their minds when the preference points system changes. I hate to tell you this, but preference points are not an 'investment', they don't earn interest and they most definitely don't guarantee anything, I mean seriously, if you've been 'saving' points for 10, 15 or 20 years, when are you planning on using them? I'll bet that unit you had your eye on 10+ years ago keeps getting further away every year with point creep.

From: cnelk
13-Jun-19
What I mean is if archery elk goes all limited, there could be the chance not to be able to hunt each and every year.

But if you're not hunting, I guess crowding isnt an issue is it?

13-Jun-19
I’m definitely for 100 pct limited draw. Our mule deer hunting is the best in the west, both opportunity and quality because of it. If it’s structured correctly it would end point creep and create some incredible trophy hunting.

From: cnelk
13-Jun-19
^^^ Lots more deer units than elk units

From: elkstabber
13-Jun-19
^^^ And elk are in much greater demand than deer.

From: Treeline
13-Jun-19
The concept of draw tags for elk is for the archery tags. OTC rifle elk would remain OTC.

Thus, overall elk herd quality will continue to suffer. Although CPw does not manage for quality and tend to get very agitated when that word comes up in relation to hunting because quality of the hunt or quality of the herd means less hunters and less revenue.

CPw doesn’t want to limit their income by reducing NR cash flow. Colorado has consistently made more money on hunting license sales than any other state in the USA, according to USFW.

Making all archery tags draw would impose the R/NR split and reduce NR numbers.

All of this focus on “fixing archery” came up do to complaints about crowding in September. With muzzle loader deer and elk, early rifle elk and deer and rifle bear there are as many if not more rifle hunters in archery season. There are also a lot of non hunters in the woods in September - hikers, bikers, etc.

Based on watching the CPw’s tag allocation system, it sucks for archery. Their methods for allocating tags put 90+ percent to the rifle hunters. Many deer tags are left over for rifle hunts when it will take points to draw for archery.

No consideration for actual harvest numbers of animals killed by method is made when allocating tags, just tag numbers. If consideration of harvest success were included, archery should get more due to significantly lower numbers of animals killed.

Rifle hunters in Colorado can hunt elk in Colorado from August through January.

From: COHOYTHUNTER
13-Jun-19
Treeline very good points

From: Surfbow
13-Jun-19
"What are you going to say the guys that have invested in the preference points system."

How much money have you 'invested' in preference points for elk? Just curious...Also, I'm wondering what other states you buy elk tags in, because I don't think Colorado has yet hit the magic equilibrium mark where people will stop paying higher fees for NR elk tags.

From: Franklin
13-Jun-19
To cnelk`s point....when a hunter is not able to hunt when they want to they look for other options. When they find another option that suits them they rarely go back to the old way.

Some can`t see the forest through the trees...this is punishing archery hunters just so a few can have better elk hunting.

That is a greater travesty of "hunters against hunters" than me calling them out on it....it`s self serving and greedy.

From: kadbow
13-Jun-19
Franklin, why are you so against raising NR fees, self serving?

From: Franklin
13-Jun-19
Why are so "for" raising NR fees.....are you one of the hunters that would like limiting NR access to elk?

From: trophyhill
13-Jun-19
Boy....... considering this was "fake news", it sure did garner alot of attention.......

From: Jaquomo
13-Jun-19
I just want CO to treat NRs like every other state does. If CO goes to all-draw for archery but keeps the current R/NR tag percentage in place and the same number of licenses, that would mean more resident tags available. But it would also mean a net loss of revenue to CPW of close to $4M annually.

But if "overcrowding" is the issue, then they would need to cut back on overall tag numbers in those current OTC units which now have 45-50% NR participation. It might lead to a net increase in resident tags for those units, although there's no law that says the current R/NR ratio is forever.

One of the CPW survey questions was, "Would you favor all limited even if it meant you couldn't hunt every year?" I wonder how the hunters who answered "yes" will feel when they are sitting home in September because they didnt draw elk in any other state...?

From: Franklin
13-Jun-19
Another thing to consider.....not every hunter has the means that others do. Colorado is the last state where a hunter with limited means can pack up a truck and go on a dream hunt. I know hunters that can`t even afford these fancy new camo clothes they are selling now. Let`s not turn our sport into the sport of kings.

I am all for reasonable....moderated increases. Why for the life of me I don`t understand why the agencies sit on their hands for years and then nail you with a large sum jump in fees. Just increase the fees at a reasonable rate yearly.

From: pav
13-Jun-19
"I just want CO to treat NRs like every other state does."

I can live with that Lou....as long as the every other state comparison does NOT include New Mexico! Since I expanded my horizons several years ago, I've drawn seven tags in Colorado. Still waiting on the first New Mexico tag. Finding it a bit ironic this "fake news" thread was started by a NM resident. No offense to the OP....just sayin'....

From: Treeline
13-Jun-19
Colorado is by far the most generous state for opportunity to hunt for all species. Not just elk.

Most other states limit NR's to 10% or less.

Colorado OTC is unlimited and most of the draw units are 35% NR. For the high demand units, there is a 20% cap on NR's, but that cap was set many years ago so there are a number of units that should be capped at 20% that are still 35% NR. Kind of crazy when you throw in the Landowner and youth allotments for tag numbers how limited Colorado Resident Hunters really are already versus any other western state.

Add to that that CPw has recently raised Colorado resident tag fees across the board and instituted payment for preference points on residents as well. Since we have to buy a separate license for every species, it hits the resident hunters pretty significantly.

CPw has, to date, made no indications that they will do anything to improve access - even to our state lands that are not accessible as they are in every other state, there has been no commitment to improve the quality of the hunt by limiting the number of hunters, no work to increase or even maintain big game herd populations through tough winters, and they absolutely do not want to limit non-resident licenses any further.

Then, we residents get the pleasure of hunting with the masses from all over the world. Not even being able to find a parking spot at some of our trailheads that we used to hunt due to the parking lot being full of out of state vehicles, losing hunting areas due to just plain overcrowding. Hordes of NR's coming in with money in their pockets leasing up land that we used to be able to hunt by putting in a little sweat equity at branding time or harvest.

Our CPw is addicted to the NR dollars and certainly does not want to lose any portion of that profit stream. Colorado makes more than any two western states combined for hunting license revenue and more than any other state in the USA. Do not expect it to get better...

From: Jaquomo
13-Jun-19
I would be fine with the WY nonresident elk model - jack the price up to nearly $1000 (includes the cost of two preference points, habitat stamp, archery tag, special feeding permit) and NRs get to hunt every three years. Residents hunt every year in general units, or collect points for draw units.

I feel bad for the hunters who can't afford out of state hunts. They probably can't afford a lot of other things either. That's life. Hunting isn't welfare. Honestly, $661 for an elk license and fishing license for a 30 day hunt is a bargain. What other major skill pursuit can you do on your own for less than $25 a day for price of admission?

13-Jun-19
"Let`s not turn our sport into the sport of kings."

I agree with Franklin 100% on this. I can afford higher tag fees, but I just don't think it's right to price working class Americans out of hunting in order to reduce crowds. I believe that that will be bad for hunting long term.

Here's the thing, most F&G depts across the nation get along without a mass influx of NR funds and they manage to not go tits up. Government agencies will spend every last dollar you give them and they have to have their feet held to the fire to keep them at even a semblance of fiscal efficiency. If you doubled the money going in to CPW in 2020, by 2030, they'd be saying they couldn't get by without that money.

If CO lost some NR money and they most likely will one day no matter what they do, than they just need to tighten the belt and get by without the extra millions that NRs pump into the agency.

13-Jun-19
"What other major skill pursuit can you do on your own for less than $25 a day for price of admission?"

Hiking, mountain biking, bird watching, fishing, kayaking, swimming, sight seeing, camping, beach combing, off-roading... I could go on ;)

Everyone has their equipment, food, travel, and lodging costs. Hunters are the only ones that pay this kind of coin to the government to do what they do in the outdoors. Even the National Parks, which are by far the most heavily managed outdoor areas of the country, you can buy a pass for $80 and get your entire minivan full of rugrats into everyone of them for a year.

From: fubar racin
13-Jun-19
I gotta say I would like Wyoming’s model more if Colorado adopted it, including the outfitter welfare program

From: Jaquomo
13-Jun-19
Ike, the only one of those you listed I would consider a skill pursuit is fly fishing, and that costs over $100 a year for NR licenses out here, without a chance to bring home a year's supply of meat. On my streams where the State "owns" the fish, you need a NR license and then pay me $40 a day to step in the water. And it's all catch-release.

But back to hunting..if there weren't more people willing to pay than the existing supply of harvestable animals, licenses would be cheaper. Montana lost Franklin. That nearly bankrupted the F&G but somehow they are scraping by.

We usually agree on most things. But I don't see hunters being priced out of hunting anywhere, because almost everyone can hunt their own state for cheap (except maybe NM and NV residents).

You can take your family to the carnival when it comes to town for $60, plus cotton candy, ride the ferris wheel and roller coaster and shoot the ducks to win a prize. Or you can choose to take the family to Disney World and drop a few grand. Not everyone can afford Disney World.

In my units, Wisconsin hunters seem to be the most prevalent NRs. Last time I looked, a WI resident deer license costs $24. Anyone who wants to hunt can afford $24. But a hell of a lot seem to think $661 is a bargain to come here.

From: Lost Arra
13-Jun-19
If every state had elk opportunities then it might be a different picture but they don't so the demand remains high.

The long-term future of elk will hinge on development encroaching on wild land. Probably not in my lifetime but with the political climate there it could get ugly.

From: Brotsky
13-Jun-19
"You can take your family to the carnival when it comes to town for $60, plus cotton candy, ride the ferris wheel and roller coaster and shoot the ducks to win a prize. Or you can choose to take the family to Disney World and drop a few grand. Not everyone can afford Disney World."

I think the important point Lou left out here is that there is obviously a large enough supply of folks that can afford Disney World that the mouse isn't worried about where his next meal is coming from either, same with elk hunting in the west. No one has priced hunters out to the point where they aren't still lining up for tags.

From: Franklin
13-Jun-19
Jaq you conveniently left out the fact that Wisconsin has one of the lowest non-resident tag fees and arguably some of the best deer hunting around.

You were doing good until you stumbled on that point....lol

From: Jaquomo
13-Jun-19
Franklin, I dont care about NR fees in WI. I wouldn't hunt there if it was free. My point was that nobody is priced out of hunting in WI, no matter how poor they are, but a lot of WI hunters can afford to hunt out-of-state and are thrilled to do it.

From: Brotsky
13-Jun-19
WI is a crappy example. If you've never hunted there before they are so excited to have you that they'll only charge you half price. You see anywhere out west charging half price for elk tags to get people to come and hunt you let me know.

13-Jun-19
wisconsin aint close to what it was in the 90's for big buck production. not a top tier destination anymore.

From: grossklw
13-Jun-19
And not to mention wayyyyy behind the times when it comes to non-res hunting license prices. Doesn't bother me a bit to pay what I pay to come out west, I wish WI would get with the times and charge accordingly as well.

From: Glunt@work
13-Jun-19
The cheapest way to hunt elk in CO is to live in the midwest. The savings the other 51 weeks a year far outweighs the cost of gas and a NR tag.

From: Jaquomo
13-Jun-19
Brotsky, we sell half price cow elk tags here! Its like a supermarket sale - buy a full price either sex tag, get an extra cow tag for half off.

13-Jun-19
First hunted elk in Colorado 1968. Since 1989 have been back every year. Burned all my points last year. I am out of the game and did not put in early as I have always done. Still might get OTC tag this year but Colorado has been going down hill since they put parks and wildlife together. Just my own view . Love Colorado.

13-Jun-19
First hunted elk in Colorado 1968. Since 1989 have been back every year. Burned all my points last year. I am out of the game and did not put in early as I have always done. Still might get OTC tag this year but Colorado has been going down hill since they put parks and wildlife together. Just my own view . Love Colorado.

13-Jun-19
Addressing Treeline's post about how the resident has it hard versus the nonresident: I'm not disagreeing with the way residents feel. I'd feel the same. However, the only way to fix it and have you bread too is to raise resident fee's even more. To put it bluntly, when residents start paying $660/year for an either sex archery tag for elk, I'd venture to guess that many would realize that they have it quite well in comparison. Take away the option of the B tags residents get so cheap and, it'd likely get right down ugly.

From: wifishkiller
13-Jun-19
Man, I haven't checked this in a few days, comparing WI to Colorado is about the most ridiculous thing on this thread lol.

Our entire system is a joke in Colorado and the non-resident hunters, are a huge problem. Anyone who does not agree has not hunted here much or has their head in the sand. Before anyone cries, I hunt 4/5 states every year, and I sure don't expect to have the same opportunities as residents when I apply.

I'm hoping it turns into a system similar to Wyoming, but have zero faith given the park's involvement.

Once I cash out on some points, I'll be getting out of this state as fast as I can. I'll gladly pay nonresidence costs in all the western states! Anyone saying they are "entitled" to the same perks as us residents, should have to spend an equal amount of time with our overweling populations of liberals!

From: Franklin
13-Jun-19
What`s the matter Jaq....whitetails too tricky for you...lol

Face it....NR run the show in Colorado as far as hunting goes. Colorado could give a squat what residents feel or think. The revenue created from out of state visitors is what drives everything. People that hunt in a paticular state also vacation....visit and even purchase property there.

If you were getting screwed over by a state that you are trying to hunt would you then go out of your way to visit it? I don`t think so.

From: Jaquomo
13-Jun-19
Nope, I wouldn't go to any state that screws me over. That's why I only hunt CO, NE, WY. AZ right now because I don't have time to hunt MT.

No real interest in whitetails. I can hunt 150"+ whitetails 15 minutes from my house but would rather hunt mature muleys in November.

From: Franklin
13-Jun-19
I`m with you on the mulies....my favorite animal to hunt.

13-Jun-19
I seem to recall that when MT raised the price of the elk/deer combo to a grand, they didn't all go in the draw the very next draw and there were some available as leftovers for quite some time after they became available...

So there certainly is a threshold that people won't pay. I want to hunt bison, but I don't put in for AZ based on the price of the tag - although it's more so out of protest because I'd pay that much in an auction for the tag...

Another thing, if CO goes all draw, poo hits the fan and rolls downhill and what is downhill? The other states that have OTC units: ID, OR, and WA.

From: fubar racin
13-Jun-19
I was sitting at work today thinking and I got the solution to all the problems, first step we go 100% draw, second step we cap non res at 5% and charge them a grand like the other states do, 3rd step we tear out the weak excuses for “food plots” that they put in on the eastern SWA’s and plant pot, last step we make all users but a stamp or a license for all state lands like they do at prewitt and jumbo. Crowding solved, non res entitlement solved, over pressuring the herds solved income bout the same.

13-Jun-19
would love to hunt some of those elk that are feeding in the marijuana fields.

From: Surfbow
14-Jun-19
"Jaq you conveniently left out the fact that Wisconsin has one of the lowest non-resident tag fees and arguably some of the best deer hunting around. You were doing good until you stumbled on that point....lol"

Yeah, but their elk hunting sucks!

From: Franklin
14-Jun-19
Actually it`s improving....I think they are up to 8 tags now...lol

From: Jahvada
14-Jun-19
Couple things from where I sit

#1 Colorado HATES it resident hunters plain simple fact. The CPW hates us more and treats us worse that any other state treats its residents -period. No one can argue this fact.

The reason we receive this treatment is (this is real) due to the outfitting association along with the ranchers/special groups who tell - yes instruct - the commissioners how to vote. All the while the CBA cant even get listened to in the same room but it is the way the CPW works. Some groups are very powerful and the outfitters are the only reason colorado has not updated the units to 80-20 as mandated. Just how the CPW works.

#2 Every single archery guy I talk with believes option #2 is best for the animals as well as the hunters.

You guys that are saying that after #2 is adopted (looks like a slam dunk if votes were counted at this point but as we know the decision is already made) and Colorado goes to all draw - folks will not be able to hunt well that is the real "fake news"... If you cant find a way to hunt by drawing, landowner tags, leftovers, returns, and leftover draw well it is not the draw that kept you out of hunting but yourself. There will be plenty of tags for guys who know the system. Now if you show up to walmart the night before the season looking for a tag ya might run into a problem..

Also yes cnelk I am one of the guys who hunts a 0 point unit every year as it is much better on the quality and experience than otc... I also understand the value (congrats again on the draw) of gaining a point while hunting but IMO there are too many players to keep on that path.

Something to think about is that in the Arkansas as well as Gunny basins locals will strongly disagree on some of your OPINIONS that #2 will not help the age class of animals because moving archery elk to draw in these places sure has helped - well just according to the locals who hunt every year..

Also as I type this option #2 has the most support but if the good old CPW has taught us anything it is that they have already met with the outfitters/special interest groups and they told the commissioners how to vote so this is all academic discussion at this point.

After looking it all over I vote #2

From: South Farm
14-Jun-19
If true it's no big deal because once they bring the wolves in there won't be any elk to hunt anyhow.

From: fubar racin
14-Jun-19
Worst unit Iv ever hunted in this state is a 1-2 point draw, has been since I was a teenager. Went back last year it still sucks worse than any otc unit Iv ever stepped foot in.

From: SoDakSooner
14-Jun-19
Not much to add other than CO did increase non resident tag prices by $85 this year....in the form of a small game license. Didn't seem to make much difference. Im a non resident and will hunt it as long as I can. Areas we hunt we mostly run into folks from Colorado.... but also rarely see people anyway.

From: fubar racin
14-Jun-19
Option 2 also doesn’t solve the actual issues that Colorado has, if we wanted to fix the issue in Colorado we would find a way to force the CPW TO RUN IN A FISCALLY RESPONSIBLE WAY then treat elk hunting as other states do. I understand that’s probably impossible but bandaids don’t cure anything either.

14-Jun-19
they will probably make it all draw but have more tags available in the draw than were ever purchased over the counter. smoke, mirrors, crowds, money.

14-Jun-19
"they will probably make it all draw but have more tags available in the draw than were ever purchased"

Exactly. I seriously doubt they're really going to cut hunter numbers across the current OTC units. There may be a few units that get less hunters and become 0 or even 1 point units, but there's going to be units that you can draw as a second choice too.

Also, I think it's BS that they'd make archery and ML hunters on a draw and not the rifle guys. Forcing us all to burn points and control the number of hunters in the entire state.

From: South Farm
14-Jun-19
Beef's looking better all the time!

From: Jaquomo
14-Jun-19
It will take a couple years for everything to shake out if it goes all-draw. The first year a lot of people in "points no-man's land" will burn them to keep hunting OTC spots they've spent decades learning. Just like the first year deer went all draw, I burned 7 points to hunt my zero point unit because I had no choice if I wanted to hunt my plains spot. Now it has leveled out to about 60% draw with zero points (after they pulled so many tags out of the pool for outfitters to sell to NRs).

From: Danbow
14-Jun-19
My money is on they make it all draw! They will get and extra $101.00 from NR without raising license fees. And if they aren't smoking to much pot they could triple their money by doing it too rifle seasons also then us bow hunters won't feel slighted. End game will be you just buy a leftover tag and get a point for small game license and stamp. Any bets ?

From: Jaquomo
14-Jun-19
Danbow, unless they lift the NR cap imposed for draw units (which is entirely possible), they'll lose between $3-4 million per year in archery revenue. NRs make up 40-50% of the hunter numbers in many OTC units.

I don't forsee them doing anything that isn't at least revenue-neutral, so something else would have to change in a big way.

From: Glunt@work
15-Jun-19
The nonres cap is only if residents use all of the 65%. My guess is if they went 100% limited they would set tag numbers high enough so that nonres revenue stays very close to current levels. That said, guessing what they will do isn't easy since their take on issues rarely lines up with an approach that makes sense to me.

From: Jaquomo
15-Jun-19
^^^ This

From: Danbow
15-Jun-19
I would agree that they would just set numbers higher and sell more small game licenses. And if I have to pick up my rifle to hunt elk again I will. I burned my points this year so it won't be a problem for me. It always amazes me though how most people drive-through really good elk habitat on the way to the back country and then complain about crowding when they get there. Elk are where you find them and they're not all in the backcountry

From: Jaquomo
15-Jun-19
My elk draw unit has 1100 archery tags. Plus rifle bear, archery deer, muzzleloader deer, elk, and moose, high country rifle deer, grouse hunters, ATV clubs in big camps . I hunt it because it's close to home and I can scout all summer. But there are nearby OTC units with way less pressure.

I agree with Glunt, that if they go all-draw it won't affect tag numbers or availabilty in most areas, especially those with high NR participation. It will just force hunters to burn points.

From: txhunter58
15-Jun-19

From: txhunter58
15-Jun-19
If they set numbers high enough to be revenue neutral then I suspect you will be able to draw a tag with 0 points or as a second choice so it won’t really affect using points. It also won’t improve crowding

The only thing that would do that is making all elk tags draw only

From: Danbow
15-Jun-19
Jaquomo i bet that living next to where you hunt you look at people from Denver as non -residents.I would. I live out in the country and if their not from the general area they might as well be NR. All the atv use is my peeve two hurting the elk hunting in the area that I go to

From: Franklin
15-Jun-19
The so called "elites" of the Colorado hunting world view EVERYONE as a non-resident and intruder.

Don`t be mistaken....this is what is driving this for most. They are MY elk....not yours.

From: Jaquomo
15-Jun-19
Franklin, not sure where you get that. We just want to be treated like the "elites" on every other state. Reasonable cap on NRs, unlike other states where the NR cap is 10% or less.

From: fubar racin
15-Jun-19
Maybe Franklin should try New Mexico or Utah

From: Franklin
15-Jun-19
Not referring to anyone specifically but we all know the dislike of NR by some is also driving this. We are all adults and can accept the truth....it`s no different than any other state. NR are viewed as intruders.

From: txhunter58
15-Jun-19
Double edge sword. All the years they continued raising our prices and residents told us "quite whining, all the states are doing it"

But Colorado is unique in that they sell so many more NR tags than other states due to the bigger numbers of animals. And the CPW has no trouble spending the extra money that we provide. Now you want them to give up that teat that they have gotten used to suckling and they won't.

As they say, be careful what you wish for...……….

From: Glunt@work
15-Jun-19
If the day comes when you don't get to hunt your normal spot or any spot due to the demand for deer tags being higher than supply, guys from non-elk states might be closer aligned to the opinions of western state residents who are concerned about resident/nonresident allocation numbers.

I certainly don't see nonresidents as intruders. I hunt other states myself. I do live in a state where getting a tag for some species and a bunch of the better units for common species is extremely hard and the demand grows each year.

From: trophyhill
15-Jun-19
Fubar, we don't like nr's either ;)

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