KUIU
California Here I Come!!
Wild Sheep
Contributors to this thread:
NvaGvUp 12-Jun-19
Brotsky 12-Jun-19
Treeline 12-Jun-19
njbuck 12-Jun-19
Southern draw 12-Jun-19
SBH 12-Jun-19
elkmtngear 12-Jun-19
OFFHNTN 12-Jun-19
Beav 12-Jun-19
Owl 12-Jun-19
NvaGvUp 12-Jun-19
sticksender 12-Jun-19
Scoot 12-Jun-19
pav 12-Jun-19
NvaGvUp 12-Jun-19
JRABQ 12-Jun-19
Jim in PA 12-Jun-19
Lone Bugle 12-Jun-19
iceman 12-Jun-19
Heat 12-Jun-19
IdyllwildArcher 12-Jun-19
'Ike' 12-Jun-19
BOWUNTR 12-Jun-19
'Ike' 12-Jun-19
NvaGvUp 12-Jun-19
Matt 12-Jun-19
master guide 12-Jun-19
NvaGvUp 12-Jun-19
DL 12-Jun-19
NvaGvUp 12-Jun-19
Dogman 12-Jun-19
NvaGvUp 12-Jun-19
Irishman 12-Jun-19
NvaGvUp 12-Jun-19
Dogman 12-Jun-19
NvaGvUp 12-Jun-19
BOWUNTR 12-Jun-19
Bowboy 12-Jun-19
Dogman 12-Jun-19
Ucsdryder 12-Jun-19
sticksender 12-Jun-19
bowbender77 12-Jun-19
NvaGvUp 12-Jun-19
IdyllwildArcher 12-Jun-19
NvaGvUp 12-Jun-19
BOHNTR 13-Jun-19
Bigdan 13-Jun-19
IdyllwildArcher 13-Jun-19
BULELK1 13-Jun-19
Mad Trapper 13-Jun-19
NvaGvUp 13-Jun-19
Tilzbow 13-Jun-19
NvaGvUp 13-Jun-19
Scar Finga 13-Jun-19
Matt 13-Jun-19
NvaGvUp 13-Jun-19
deerhaven 13-Jun-19
DL 13-Jun-19
NvaGvUp 13-Jun-19
Dogman 13-Jun-19
NvaGvUp 13-Jun-19
Dogman 13-Jun-19
Matt 13-Jun-19
DL 14-Jun-19
Hawkeye 14-Jun-19
Bigdan 14-Jun-19
NvaGvUp 14-Jun-19
Medicinemann 14-Jun-19
NvaGvUp 14-Jun-19
NvaGvUp 14-Jun-19
IdyllwildArcher 14-Jun-19
BOWUNTR 14-Jun-19
NvaGvUp 14-Jun-19
'Ike' (Phone) 14-Jun-19
NvaGvUp 14-Jun-19
Turk 14-Jun-19
Drnaln 14-Jun-19
NvaGvUp 14-Jun-19
BOWUNTR 14-Jun-19
NvaGvUp 14-Jun-19
Zackman 14-Jun-19
NvaGvUp 14-Jun-19
Tilzbow 14-Jun-19
Tilzbow 14-Jun-19
Zackman 14-Jun-19
Tilzbow 14-Jun-19
Zackman 14-Jun-19
NvaGvUp 14-Jun-19
iceman 14-Jun-19
Zackman 14-Jun-19
NvaGvUp 14-Jun-19
BOWUNTR 14-Jun-19
Yukon Paul 14-Jun-19
Zackman 14-Jun-19
NvaGvUp 14-Jun-19
Zackman 14-Jun-19
Zackman 14-Jun-19
NvaGvUp 14-Jun-19
Zackman 14-Jun-19
Yukon Paul 14-Jun-19
BOWUNTR 14-Jun-19
DL 14-Jun-19
mtnview 14-Jun-19
PSUhoss 14-Jun-19
BOHNTR 15-Jun-19
'Ike' (Phone) 15-Jun-19
Tilzbow 15-Jun-19
Zackman 15-Jun-19
Tilzbow 15-Jun-19
Zackman 15-Jun-19
midwest 15-Jun-19
Dogman 15-Jun-19
'Ike' (Phone) 15-Jun-19
ben yehuda 15-Jun-19
'Ike' (Phone) 15-Jun-19
DL 15-Jun-19
bowslam 15-Jun-19
Trial153 15-Jun-19
Bigdan 15-Jun-19
'Ike' (Phone) 15-Jun-19
Bigdan 18-Jun-19
Jaquomo 18-Jun-19
'Ike' (Phone) 18-Jun-19
Grey Ghost 18-Jun-19
ki-ke 18-Jun-19
Grey Ghost 18-Jun-19
Nick Muche 18-Jun-19
midwest 18-Jun-19
JTV 18-Jun-19
Grey Ghost 18-Jun-19
Nick Muche 18-Jun-19
Grey Ghost 18-Jun-19
leo17 18-Jun-19
Whitey 18-Jun-19
Whitey 18-Jun-19
Trial153 18-Jun-19
Grey Ghost 18-Jun-19
jdee 18-Jun-19
Whitey 18-Jun-19
Nick Muche 18-Jun-19
BOWUNTR 18-Jun-19
bigswivle 18-Jun-19
'Ike' (Phone) 18-Jun-19
Beav 18-Jun-19
bigeasygator 18-Jun-19
Nick Muche 19-Jun-19
Franzen 19-Jun-19
Jason Stafford 19-Jun-19
DL 19-Jun-19
EmbryOklahoma 19-Jun-19
DL 19-Jun-19
Brotsky 19-Jun-19
DL 19-Jun-19
Irishman 20-Jun-19
Nick Muche 20-Jun-19
Trial153 20-Jun-19
Bigdan 20-Jun-19
Heat 20-Jun-19
Irishman 20-Jun-19
DEMO-Bowhunter 20-Jun-19
llamapacker 20-Jun-19
kota-man 20-Jun-19
trkyslr 20-Jun-19
Brotsky 20-Jun-19
BOWUNTR 20-Jun-19
Mad Trapper 21-Jun-19
Beav 21-Jun-19
BOWUNTR 21-Jun-19
midwest 21-Jun-19
Bake 21-Jun-19
TSJ 21-Jun-19
Whitey 21-Jun-19
njbuck 21-Jun-19
kota-man 21-Jun-19
Brotsky 21-Jun-19
kota-man 21-Jun-19
bigeasygator 21-Jun-19
Ace 21-Jun-19
Brotsky 21-Jun-19
Rut Nut 21-Jun-19
Grey Ghost 21-Jun-19
kota-man 21-Jun-19
Grey Ghost 21-Jun-19
From: NvaGvUp
12-Jun-19
Holy moly!

I drew CA DBHS!!!!

White Mountain, here I come!

From: Brotsky
12-Jun-19
Wow! Congrats Kyle! That is awesome! Have a great hunt!

From: Treeline
12-Jun-19
Amazing! Congratulations Kyle! Hope you have a spectacular hunt!

From: njbuck
12-Jun-19
Absolutely amazing!!! congrats. Are you going to go after them with your bow?

12-Jun-19
Congrats!!

From: SBH
12-Jun-19
Thats a big one! Congrats!

From: elkmtngear
12-Jun-19
Wow...incredible draw!

Best of Luck, Kyle!

From: OFFHNTN
12-Jun-19
WHAT?! Wow............CONGRATS and good luck!

From: Beav
12-Jun-19
Congrats and good luck!!

From: Owl
12-Jun-19
Sheep karma paying off... very happy for you.

From: NvaGvUp
12-Jun-19
Drawing this tag is very special to me, because the White Mountain unit was the very first unit CA WSF got opened after the chapter was founded.

From: sticksender
12-Jun-19
Congratulations on your luck. Nothing sweeter than a sheep tag in your pocket.

From: Scoot
12-Jun-19
That's great! You most definitely deserve it!

From: pav
12-Jun-19
Congratulations Kyle! Lucky...yes, but this one feels more like a reward than just luck!

From: NvaGvUp
12-Jun-19
This is my 3rd sheep draw tag in the past five years.

The first one was in NV where I had enough points that my draw odds were about 20-25%

The second one was WY where my draw odds were 50% due to a lot of points and doing a lot of homework.

But this one is just pure dumb luck, even though I had max points.

From: JRABQ
12-Jun-19
Wow, congrats Kyle!

And hurray for dumb luck!

From: Jim in PA
12-Jun-19
Congratulations Kyle. Good Luck!

From: Lone Bugle
12-Jun-19
Fantastic!!

From: iceman
12-Jun-19

From: Heat
12-Jun-19
This is great news! Big congrats Kyle! Happy for you man!

12-Jun-19
Grats Kyle!

From: 'Ike'
12-Jun-19
Very cool...Congrats Kyle!

12-Jun-19
yes....lots of points is a good enabler, without which......luck isn't quite as good. Getting ready is 1/2 the fun....have a good one Kyle! looking forward to the hunt report.

From: BOWUNTR
12-Jun-19
What are the odds to draw a California non resident elk tag and sheep tag in one lifetime... unimaginable. Hmmmm.... Ed F

From: 'Ike'
12-Jun-19
So what'd you get Ed?!?

From: NvaGvUp
12-Jun-19
Ed,

I have no idea of the odds, but they must be ridiculous.

Esp. when you realize there is only one NR elk tag and only two NR sheep tags.

From: Matt
12-Jun-19
Congrats Kyle, karma for all your hard work for the sheep.

From: master guide
12-Jun-19
Kyle now line up some mules to cover a lot of country.

From: NvaGvUp
12-Jun-19
Going to use horses.

From: DL
12-Jun-19
That’s incredible!! Have you checked the website a dozen times to see if they made a mistake? Good luck getting sleep the next two weeks. That’s coming up quick.

From: NvaGvUp
12-Jun-19
Dave,

As part of the draw results, they include a letter with the tag fee bill.

That's already gone out FedEx to CA DFW because I want to make sure nothing goes wrong!

From: Dogman
12-Jun-19
With max points your odds actually weren’t that bad. It is the guys with anything less than max that are up against astronomical odds.

From: NvaGvUp
12-Jun-19
Dogman,

I disagree.

As a non-resident, there are only two tags available at the most, max points or no points.

From: Irishman
12-Jun-19
Congratulations. I look forward to seeing photos of the hunt.

From: NvaGvUp
12-Jun-19
This could turn out to be very expensive tag.

Next year I have a combo float trip hunt in ANWR for Grizzly, Dalls and Caribou.

I bought it originally as a SW Alaska bear hunt, but then the outfitter sold his bear area so he gave me this combo hunt in exchange.

I was planning to focus on Grizzlys first, but now that I'll likely tag a Desert ram in CA, plus the Dall next year (which also highly likely) would get me 3/4 of the way to my second FNAWS, needing just a Stone to do that. But Stone hunts are really pricey so that's how drawing this CA tag could end up costing me a bunch!

From: Dogman
12-Jun-19
Last year max point holders had 2 tags available and 149 people applied. How many max point holders are NR?...they don’t publish those numbers in the book.

From: NvaGvUp
12-Jun-19
No,

Last year there was ONE non-resident draw tag.

By legislation (which I wrote, BTW), non-residents are limited to "up to10%" of the total number of tags in the draw. There were 19 draw tags last year and CA does not round up. They round down.

That means ONE tag.

In addition, a whole lot more than 149 max point holders applied.

From: BOWUNTR
12-Jun-19
Wow... yeah, you deserve it. I smell fish... Ed F

From: Bowboy
12-Jun-19
Congrats Kyle. Good luck!

From: Dogman
12-Jun-19

Dogman's embedded Photo
Dogman's embedded Photo
Exactly 149 max point holders applied for that tag...last year.

From: Ucsdryder
12-Jun-19
Congrats! There are some awesome tags being drawn by the bowsite crew! I can’t wait to see all the pictures and read all the stories!!!!! I hope we see a lot of positivity and keep the bitching, complaining, jealousy and not so subtle jabs to a minimum...

From: sticksender
12-Jun-19
As best I understand it, everyone (with max points) is in the same pool for the preference tags, regardless of residency. Then, everyone remaining is in the same pool for the random tags, regardless of residency. But with the total draw being subjected, all along the way, to the NR ceiling.

If it wasn't done that way, there'd be little reason for a NR with less than max points to apply.

From: bowbender77
12-Jun-19
Wow ! What a great draw. Congradulations

From: NvaGvUp
12-Jun-19
Dogman,

So what if 149 applied in the Whites if there is only ONE non-resident tag available in the ENTIRE STATE?????????

12-Jun-19
I don't know what he's getting at, but it's not astronomical odds for a NR with max points.

From: NvaGvUp
12-Jun-19
Ike,

Exactly!

You can't just look at one unit.

You have to look at how many NR's applied across all of the hunt ones.

Out of all of those applicants, if you aren't the first NR drawn, you are out and done.

From: BOHNTR
13-Jun-19
“By legislation (which I wrote, BTW),”

Ha, I was waiting for the self back slapping to start.....congrats on the tag, though.

From: Bigdan
13-Jun-19
Is it a Any weapon Tag or Archery only Congrats on the tag

13-Jun-19
There's no archery only sheep tags in CA. There's some nice things about CA sheep tags, but archery-only for better draw odds is not one of them.

The seasons are long (most are over 2 months) and there's not a lot of tags given out so there's mature rams in every unit. In CA, more rams die of old age than are shot by hunters, although the #1 reason for that is that so many of the sheep are in areas or herds that are off-limits to hunting for a variety of reasons (game reserves, state and national parks, military bases, or sub-sub-sub species that are considered threatened or endangered).

From: BULELK1
13-Jun-19
Crazy Lucky Kyle

Congrats man

Good luck, Robb

From: Mad Trapper
13-Jun-19
Congrats!

From: NvaGvUp
13-Jun-19
Thanks, everyone.

Now, c'mon, Montana! lol

From: Tilzbow
13-Jun-19
Kyle,

If you draw MT, I’ll personally drive over to your house and kick you in the nuts for everyone on Bowsite! I kid, but the knee for sure!

From: NvaGvUp
13-Jun-19
Thanks, Scott.

What are friends for if not for stuff like that? lol

From: Scar Finga
13-Jun-19
Very exciting man! Congratulations!!!!!

From: Matt
13-Jun-19
Tillz, I know you are joking, but I'll cover your gas. ;-)

From: NvaGvUp
13-Jun-19
Matt,

You guys crack me up!

I'll tell you what.

If I draw a MT sheep tag (I applied for 680), I'LL buy his gas!

From: deerhaven
13-Jun-19
Nice Kyle!! Congrats and good luck!

From: DL
13-Jun-19
I had max points in 2017. It was still over 100/1 odds

From: NvaGvUp
13-Jun-19
And you're a resident as well!

I can't think of any state where the draw odds aren't well over 100:1 if you don't have Max Points.

(Nevada's 'Max Points' don't count in the above because 'max points' in NV do nothing other than giving you one more ball in the hopper)

From: Dogman
13-Jun-19
This year there were over 20 sheep tags, so NR’s were allotted 2 tags. That unit had 6 total tags this year, meaning 5 went to max point holders. If the applicant numbers remained the same those are killer desert sheep odds. As far as the NR cap goes, for sure you got lucky, but you don't know your true odds if you don’t know the % of max point holders that are R/NR. Who are the “Rain man” types who compute odds on this site? If the max point applicant pool is comprised of 10% NR’s and the NR quota is 10% of the permits then being a NR is of no statistical significance right?

From: NvaGvUp
13-Jun-19
Dogman,

Incorrect!

Only two NR tags are available in all the units combined. That's all that matters if you're a NR.

I'll ask dfw for the breakdown of the R/NR numbers

From: Dogman
13-Jun-19
What is incorrect? ...

From: Matt
13-Jun-19
Kyle, empty offer with paying for his gas because all 3 of us know you can outrun him once he gets there.

From: DL
14-Jun-19

DL's embedded Photo
DL's embedded Photo
Odds Bodkins!! All I would care about is I got a tag. The most sought after tag on the planet. Kyle I know you’re a mountain man but you might want to carry something for altitude sickness. Terry A about died up there. He had been up there many times but it almost killed him. Had it not been for an EMT that worked for him and an inhaler he could have died from fluid filling his lungs. Here’s some White Mountains rams

From: Hawkeye
14-Jun-19
Karma! Congrats Kyle:) Enjoy it and good luck!

From: Bigdan
14-Jun-19
Are you going to try with your bow you killed a nice one in Nevada

From: NvaGvUp
14-Jun-19
Terry? THAT Terry???

Wow! That's scary because as you noted, he's been guiding and scouting up there for over a decade!

From: Medicinemann
14-Jun-19
Wow! Keep us posted....

From: NvaGvUp
14-Jun-19

NvaGvUp's embedded Photo
NvaGvUp's embedded Photo
Here's the data I requested yesterday from DFW re. the 2019 sheep draw.

From: NvaGvUp
14-Jun-19
Matt,

"Kyle, empty offer with paying for his gas because all 3 of us know you can outrun him once he gets there."

Maybe I could pull the 'duck joke' thing on him. ;^)

14-Jun-19
1775 Max points holders.

19 PP tags this year. 1775 divided by 19 = 93.4

It'd take almost 100 years for the other 16,346 of us to get a shot at those tags.

What a Ponzi Scheme!

Ridiculous! I don't know how this can be defended. It should be changed to a BP system.

From: BOWUNTR
14-Jun-19
1000 times better than what Colorado is doing with their sheep tags... California knew what they were doing when they started this. Kids and new hunters never had a chance. Ed F

From: NvaGvUp
14-Jun-19
I can't think of a single sheep state where the best draw odds aren't at least 200:1 unless you're talking about a state that awards a high percentage of their tags to those with Max Points.

14-Jun-19
Unless you’re with the WSF...Doh!

From: NvaGvUp
14-Jun-19
Which has nothing to do with whether or not you draw.

From: Turk
14-Jun-19
Congratulations. Thats great!

From: Drnaln
14-Jun-19
Congratulations Kyle....You deserve the tag....Hope you arrow a giant!

From: NvaGvUp
14-Jun-19
Ike,

"It'd take almost 100 years for the other 16,346 of us to get a shot at those tag."

A lot of the people with max points will drop out due to age, infirmities, etc.

Plus, pick the most physically challenging unit you can, as a lot of folks won't apply there because of the physical challenge. That alone will dramatically increase you chances of drawing. It's also one of the reasons I applied in the Whites.

That is certainly the case in the Whites, as the number of applicants there is quite low compared to the other units.

From: BOWUNTR
14-Jun-19
I wish Desert Bighorn Sheep was a once in a lifetime draw tag for all states combined. Why not let others have the opportunity.... Ed F

From: NvaGvUp
14-Jun-19
ED,

The problem with that is that it would take BHS management out of the hands of the states, which is where it belongs.

It would also penalize those states which a good job of managing their sheep while subsidizing those states which don't.

Besides, UT and CA are already once-in-a-lifetime tags. NV is essentially OIL as well as it will probably take a RESIDENT twenty years to draw. If he does, he can't apply for ten years. At that point it will likely take 25-30 more years to draw again.

That leaves just AZ and NM and I don't know what their policies are.

From: Zackman
14-Jun-19
Kyle,

How do you plan on getting your second stone?

From: NvaGvUp
14-Jun-19
I'm looking at a couple of strategies at this point but have not decided yet

From: Tilzbow
14-Jun-19
Here’s a strategy. Book with a great outfitter. Find a Stone you want to kill. Kill it. Duh!

From: Tilzbow
14-Jun-19
Sorry. Rough week at work... Well, not really sorry...

From: Zackman
14-Jun-19
Strategies?? Sounds interesting. Most of us that want to do something go and book a hunt.

I’m interested what type of strategy would be used to get a stone hunt. Please elaborate...

From: Tilzbow
14-Jun-19
Zackman,

I was joking... I’m sure Kyle will lay out his strategy and it likely won’t involve paying full price. Auctions, cancellation lists, etc but I bet they’re still going to run north of $40K.

Bowsite,

Having lunch with Kyle next week. Any kicking location suggestions, let me know!

From: Zackman
14-Jun-19
I can guarantee you he has no plans of paying full price with his strategies.

From: NvaGvUp
14-Jun-19
Scott,

"Here’s a strategy. Book with a great outfitter. Find a Stone you want to kill. Kill it. Duh"

That's exactly my strategy. I'm simply looking for the best way to buy it at the best price.

From: iceman
14-Jun-19
I bought a couple raffle tickets a few days ago for a stone sheep hunt from Epic Outdoors. About the only way I’ll ever be able to do a stone hunt.

From: Zackman
14-Jun-19
What would be the way to buy it at the best price?

Would you be willing to do just about anything to get want you want?

From: NvaGvUp
14-Jun-19
Zackman,

That would depend on what 'anything' means.

From: BOWUNTR
14-Jun-19
This is going sideways... carry on. Ed F

From: Yukon Paul
14-Jun-19
Zackman,

Who wouldn’t do “just about anything” to obtain a good price on a sheep hunt? With in reason of course. Nobody, especially someone like Kyle who cares so much about the sheep like would consider or do anything nefarious.

From: Zackman
14-Jun-19
That should be a troublesome statement for everyone on bowsite to read. Most of us here are about fairness. Fair chase bowhunting. Fair treatment of animals. Fair actions towards other ethical bowhunters.

Most of us follow a code of conduct. Such as not screwing over other hunters for personal gain, having respect for organizations looking toward the greater good for hunters and animals, even simple things like knowing regulations of what is legal and illegal to do and shot in the field. Basic decencies.

It should bother others when some says that anything “might” be on the table—depending on what “anything” is...

From: NvaGvUp
14-Jun-19
Zackman,

What the heck are you talking about?????

You're the one who mentioned, 'just about anything,' not me.

I wouldn't even consider anything that was illegal, unethical or which both parties didn't agree to.

If you're suggesting otherwise, you are soooooooo wrong!

From: Zackman
14-Jun-19
Why don’t you tell everyone one of your strategies for obtaining a stone sheep hunt that you tried in the last day or two?

From: Zackman
14-Jun-19
Maybe one that would include subverting an entire foundation...

From: NvaGvUp
14-Jun-19
What the 'ell are you talking about?????????

I've not discussed nor even hinted about my idea with anyone, let alone 'tried' anything!!!!. Yet you accuse me of 'subverting an entire foundation.'

Man, you're a real piece of work!

From: Zackman
14-Jun-19
Not accusing. Flat out saying it. I’m not one for accusations.

Did you talk to an outfitter about trying to get all the raffle tags he is donating?

From: Yukon Paul
14-Jun-19
I can’t imagine a guy like Zack would make allegations like this without some sort of evidence. Kyle, in the last few years it sure seems like your actions, integrity and intentions have been questioned several times. You know what they say, where there is smoke there is likely a fire. Hmmm...

From: BOWUNTR
14-Jun-19
Yeah, I didn't think it was karma or deserving of the California tag... carry on... Ed F

From: DL
14-Jun-19
Everyone hates the draw system until they get drawn. Life isn’t fair.

From: mtnview
14-Jun-19
I’m with BOWUNTR, desert sheep should be one n done. I’ve taken mine on the same tag Kyle drew (also as a NR) and would gladly never apply for another in any state if those were the rules for everyone.

From: PSUhoss
14-Jun-19
Well, that escalated quickly.

Uh oh.....

From: BOHNTR
15-Jun-19
I trust and know Zack’s integrity....and reliability.

15-Jun-19
CA had a waiting period before the point system kicked in....Not a life time thing, but ten years! I was on mine for Antelope, but got lucky and drew again after the point system...For Lopes That is!

As for the other thing...To many coincidences!

From: Tilzbow
15-Jun-19
What we have here is a failure to communicate!

Zackman wrote, “Would you do anything”.

Zackman was thinking would you do anything to kill one including being unethical.

Kyle heard, “Would you do anything to get the best deal on a Stone hunt with a great outfitter even if it felt like the deal was one sided?”

Kyle answered yes and then both sides went wild.

Reminds me of our politics.....

From: Zackman
15-Jun-19
Scott,

I respect you and your opinions. This is not a failure to communicate at all. I am actually fairly competent at communicating. I feel like I communicated my last question pretty clearly for Kyle to respond. If not, I have no problem making it more clear for everyone.

From: Tilzbow
15-Jun-19
Dude,

If you’ve got something to say then come out and say it. Make it clear because I’m lost. Life’s too short for anything else.

From: Zackman
15-Jun-19
Not dude—it’s Zack.

Scott, Kyle has every opportunity to respond to my question. He hasn’t. And when he does, I would hope it to be truthful. We will wait until then. In case it isn’t available above:

Kyle, did you talk to an outfitter recently about trying to buy all of the raffle tags he is donating as a fundraiser to a foundation recently?

Oh yeah, did you do that while usurping and ignoring the foundation that was supposed to be the recipient of the donation? Possibly a foundation which you have repeatedly taken full credit for its existence?

From: midwest
15-Jun-19
crickets....

From: Dogman
15-Jun-19
AZ and NM deserts are 1x in a lifetime, so is UT and CO. I know a guy who has drawn 3 in NV alone. Back to the odds thing, I am still waiting to hear where I was not correct... Where are the Rain Man types?! If NR are limited to 10% of the tags but, as shown, make up less than 10% of the drawing pool, isn’t it statistically insignificant that they are capped at 10%.

The Marine in me likes to make things simple, and with colors. Think about it in terms of low numbers, if there are 10 marbles in a jar, one red, and nine blue, and only one red can be drawn, then no more...well, all blue could be drawn, but the red one can also be drawn...if there was more than 10% of the pool red marbles different story, but that isn’t the case. Agree that the CA drawing system is a total sham.

15-Jun-19
Coffee, check...Ok, I'm ready!

15-Jun-19
Dang, this got strange.

15-Jun-19
Strange indeed...Still crickets!

From: DL
15-Jun-19
Well I’m glad to see someone like Kyle get drawn. You’ve done so much for wild sheep that benefits all that have been drawn and will get drawn. Now I wish poor old Terry Anderson would drawn for something.

From: bowslam
15-Jun-19
Here's a question for you savvy bowsiters; Is there anyway to setup an alert to my phone when Kyle answers Zackman's question or Bigdan's question if he's going to use a bow? I appreciate your help.

From: Trial153
15-Jun-19
“Power attracts the corruptible. Suspect any who seek it.”

From: Bigdan
15-Jun-19
I'm playing the Game Like Kyle trying to draw sheep tags in different states lots of you are. I'm playing the Game in Montana I drew a ram tag in 2008 and a ewe tag in 2010 I'm going into this years draw with 7 points with a 7 year wait after drawing a tag I should only have 3 points but in Montana you can apply every year for ewe tags So that's what I did is find the hardest ewe tag in Montana to apply for In Montana a sheep bonus point is just that its not a ram or ewe point its a sheep point That's how I got the 4 extra bonus points my odds are still high but i'm playing the game. In 2008 when I drew my 680 es sheep tag I was in the Hospial I had just had a quad Buypass every one told me I would not be able to hunt it with my Bow But I did I waited 46 years to draw the tag but I would have ate the tag before I would take it with a gun That's just Me Kyle can and will take it however he wants. its his business On the other hand this site is called bowsite

15-Jun-19
This was kind of answered on the ‘Corruption’ thread...

From: Bigdan
18-Jun-19
Kyle got a nice ram in nevada

From: Jaquomo
18-Jun-19
Looks like a custom "desert sheep" camo pattern on the Xbow..

18-Jun-19
Careful, he won’t take lightly to that...Lol

From: Grey Ghost
18-Jun-19
I bet he calls it an "archery kill", too.

;-)

Matt

From: ki-ke
18-Jun-19
Can't believe he uses different color suction cups on his xbow bolt......you would think with THAT tag and all his dough, he would use matching suction cups....sheesh

From: Grey Ghost
18-Jun-19
Why does everyone talk about $40 -100K for a sheep hunt? Doesn't anyone DIY hunt any more?

Matt

From: Nick Muche
18-Jun-19
GG, can you please tell us where we can all go DIY hunt Stones, Bighorns, Desert Bighorns or Dall's without either drawing a permit or living in Alaska without paying the going rate for a sheep hunt?

From: midwest
18-Jun-19
Bigdan, where'd your pic go? You get threatened with a lawsuit, too?

From: JTV
18-Jun-19
you guys quit pickin' on Nva, he's lucky he can still get up those mountains at his age ;0)

From: Grey Ghost
18-Jun-19
"GG, can you please tell us where we can all go DIY hunt Stones, Bighorns, Desert Bighorns or Dall's without either drawing a permit or living in Alaska without paying the going rate for a sheep hunt?"

I never claimed "we all" could. But, DIY opportunities do exist for those who have no interest in having their hand held thru a hunt, or don't have the resources for it, if they are willing to wait, and are lucky enough to draw a tag.

I was blessed to draw a coveted CO Bighorn tag several years ago. After scouting all summer, I knew the unit better than most of the guides up there. I could have killed a ram with a rifle on almost every day of the season. As it was, I only got one shot with my bow, which I missed. Despite that, it remains one of my most memorable hunts.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I never wanted to kill any animal badly enough to spend $40-100K on it. And I certainly have no desire to be guided on a hunt. Figuring things out myself is half the fun for me.

Matt

From: Nick Muche
18-Jun-19
"I never claimed "we all" could. But, DIY opportunities do exist for those who have no interest in having their hand held thru a hunt, or don't have the resources for it, if they are willing to wait, and are lucky enough to draw a tag. "

You're right, you said... "Why does everyone talk about $40 -100K for a sheep hunt? Doesn't anyone DIY hunt any more?"

The answer is, a VAST majority of those who'd like to hunt sheep and those that do hunt sheep will never have the DIY option.

From: Grey Ghost
18-Jun-19
"The answer is, a VAST majority of those who'd like to hunt sheep and those that do hunt sheep will never have the DIY option."

And there in lies the biggest problem with where our hunting is going, IMO.

Matt

From: leo17
18-Jun-19
Am I missing something? Why would it matter if he bought all of the tickets at a raffle? Its his money, The money would still go to the right cause.

From: Whitey
18-Jun-19

From: Whitey
18-Jun-19

Whitey's embedded Photo
Whitey's embedded Photo

From: Trial153
18-Jun-19
Give it 20 years and sheep will be the least of of worries, they are just a precursor to what hunting will be

From: Grey Ghost
18-Jun-19
Whitey,

That meme made me laugh, mostly because it's so true.

As you may know, I was a partner in an outfitting business over a decade ago. I'm ashamed to admit that. I met far too many "hunters" whose only desire was to have a wall like that meme, despite the cost, or the lack of challenge in getting it. It opened my eyes to how the commercialization of hunting is ruining it for the vast majority of true hunters.

Flame suit on....

Matt

From: jdee
18-Jun-19
Pat.... open the CF back up please !!! all the CF argument seakers are infiltrating the big game forum. Some of these CF’ers disagree with EVERYTHING...I would rather read 10 days of TBM post.

From: Whitey
18-Jun-19
GG Agreed it’s the hard won things in life that are meaningful. I’m sitting on max points in wa as well for sheep, goat and moose. The fun in order for me is planning ,pouring over topos, scouting, figuring a new area out , the months of anticipation leading up to hauling into camp, camp and just being there, then the hunt, then the years of memories knowing you put it all together yourself.

From: Nick Muche
18-Jun-19
"Pat.... open the CF back up please !!! all the CF argument seakers are infiltrating the big game forum. Some of these CF’ers disagree with EVERYTHING...I would rather read 10 days of TBM post. "

He ain't wrong...

From: BOWUNTR
18-Jun-19
Haha... Love this place. Hard to believe we survived the last 3 days. Ed F

From: bigswivle
18-Jun-19

18-Jun-19
Was it 3 days, lost track of time...Like when draw results are about to be released, hitting refresh every few minutes....

From: Beav
18-Jun-19
It was a damn long 3 days!!

From: bigeasygator
18-Jun-19
I met far too many "hunters" whose only desire was to have a wall like that meme, despite the cost, or the lack of challenge in getting it. It opened my eyes to how the commercialization of hunting is ruining it for the vast majority of true hunters.

While I don’t doubt that there are hunters out there whose number one priority is purely putting that animal on that wall and whose behaviors in support of this goal are less than admirable, I know for a fact there are loads of other hunters who just like to seek out the adventure and challenge of hunting new species in new areas. I’d consider myself one of them. And while, yes, the nature of the beast is that many of these hunts require a guide and many of these hunts require a five figure investment, the fun is still in planning, researching a new area, getting to know the behaviors of a different species, the anticipation of pulling (or landing, or riding) into camp, the challenge of surviving in a hostile environment, and the potential that you might just get lucky enough for the chips to fall into place. As primarily a bowhunter, I’m bringing back memories more often than I’m bringing back meat for the freezer or a mount for the wall...and I wouldn’t have it any other way.

From: Nick Muche
19-Jun-19
Oh gawd.... no CF is bringing them ALL out!

Pat, please bring it back!

From: Franzen
19-Jun-19
Yeah, Pat is going to have to do something. I've spent ample time over there myself to know the volume some of these guys will post.

19-Jun-19
I’m ready for more....

From: DL
19-Jun-19

DL's embedded Photo
DL's embedded Photo
When I first started elk hunting in the 90s I really wanted to hunt in AZ. Back then I would have had to wait 10-12 years for a great zone. I just thought that’s too long. Well here it is 24 years latter. I could have been drawn possibly twice. Even with max points I knew I would never get drawn for sheep but I kept applying. One thing for sure if you don’t apply and consistently apply you will never get drawn. That’s the most important advice I give people when they ask how I got drawn. I have kept the Ca big game hunting digests for as long as point system started. Every year I get them out to study. I look for trends in how many people apply for which zones. It may not matter a bit but I still do it. I have had Max points in Ca. I applied for the unit that had the most tags. That’s a no brainer. It also doesn’t have the largest rams. With elk I know a lot of guys apply for Grizzly Island. 1 tag!! Really? There are units that give out tags in the 20s. Many people only apply for units with high success rates. In Ca I have to realize that a lot of people that get drawn maybe the first time they’ve ever hunted that species. That is one reason success rates can be low. The unit Kyle was drawn for us the toughest unit here because of the altitude and weather. 14,000 feet is nothing to sneeze at. Late summer can have thunderstorms up there that you don’t want to be in. A number of people over the years turn in their tag after they try and go scouting. My best advice is start applying and never quit, NEVER!

19-Jun-19

EmbryOklahoma's embedded Photo
EmbryOklahoma's embedded Photo

From: DL
19-Jun-19

DL's embedded Photo
DL's embedded Photo

From: Brotsky
19-Jun-19

Brotsky's embedded Photo
Brotsky's embedded Photo
Actual photo of me trying to keep track of all the tags I apply for and do not get.

From: DL
19-Jun-19
Hahaha.

From: Irishman
20-Jun-19
The statement that the vast majority of people who would like to hunt sheep will never have the DIY option is totally false. You can hunt DIY sheep in Montana every single year, until you kill one, in the unlimited areas. Now, you probably aren't going to get one, and it's tough hunting. However, it's not going to be some huge ram from the Missouri Breaks that stands there while you walk up to it, but the option to hunt Bighorn sheep is there for everyone every year.

From: Nick Muche
20-Jun-19
"the vast majority of people who would like to hunt sheep will never have the DIY option is totally false"

Of course MT Unlimited is an option, but not a very good one. I stand by what I said and will continue too. Either you live in AK or Canada, or you get extremely lucky and draw a permit for the L48... Hell, even guys like the OP hire a guide when they have the DIY option available.

If everyone that wanted to hunt sheep went to MT, those areas would turn into a draw as well I'd guess.

From: Trial153
20-Jun-19
The unlimited is tough hunt, with the quota cut off it's hard thing for NR to commit to considering the cost.

Dont forget the money out lay it takes to get your name in the hat for every lower 48 sheep draw. Add in some raffles ect and if your not laying out 2k a year no refundable your not even in the game.

From: Bigdan
20-Jun-19
KYLE has left the building!

From: Heat
20-Jun-19
I'm leaving my earlier comment as is because it was genuine excitement for the guy. Now I'm not so stoked.

From: Irishman
20-Jun-19
I didn't say that there was anything easy about the MT unlimited option. My experience is that there is nothing easy about it at all. Not for everyone, that is for sure. It all depends on what you want to get out of it, some people might not get a lot of satisfaction out of having a guide lead them to a sheep in Alaska, and might get more out of an unsuccessful unlimited hunt in Montana. If you want to hunt sheep and don't mind the fact that it is extremely difficult, the option is there.

20-Jun-19
Zack's from Cali and a millennial, so I figure he's probably part Democrat...

But he's not a liar and he will post an answer when asked a question.

The deal here is not whether someone tried buying a TAG from an outfitter at a discounted price. It has to do with someone skirting a CONSERVATION organization and trying to buy all of the tickets (which the CONSERVATION ORGANIZATION should set the number sold) before they had the opportunity to even secure the tag.

I have no problem with anyone trying to find a deal on a hunt, (heck they all are expensive), but to skirt a CONSERVATION ORGANIZATION in the process shows ones true character. And that really explains enough about that person's character and intent.

20-Jun-19
How does this thread make a positive impact on the organization and the outfitter. Even if the allegations are untrue, it seems addressing them would be in the best interests of the organization. Kyle, if untrue, say so. If true, then you should be able to explain how this helps a conservation effort that means a lot to you.

From: llamapacker
20-Jun-19
Most will recall someone bought all the tickets for the Bowhunters of Wyoming raffle last year, securing a tag. That individual paid full price for all tickets, and the organization sold out for the first time in years, bringing in maximum revenue for the conservation group. You would have thought the hunter was the incarnation of evil, from the hate spilled on these pages.

While not directly related to the OP in this thread, if the veiled accusations on this thread are to be believed, something similar may have occurred / been attempted this year. I have a hard time seeing the fault in a guy paying the full asking price and buying out a raffle. In the case of BOW, they increased the maximum ticket sales this year, and limited individual transaction to a small number of tickets. I have no problem with this, and they may have even made more money than previously. It is all about raising money for the resource, right?

Jealousy rears its ugly head in all walks of life. I know none of the particulars in this case, but it smells more of pettiness than actual wrong doing.

Bill

From: kota-man
20-Jun-19
Rhody...You new here? Don’t recall you posting much before...Just curious...

From: trkyslr
20-Jun-19
Kota.... interesting eyy... imo when “new” guys show up on a thread like this talking jibberish it’s obviously suspicious and shows character or lack there of. Just saying.

I wanna sheep hunt and would give my left nut for a tag.. hell id give both up nutz... and I’d do it with a bow until the last day .. just saying! ;-)

From: Brotsky
20-Jun-19
The community forum boys are jumping in now. You can tell by the cereal box legal degrees and conspiracy theories.

From: BOWUNTR
20-Jun-19
I never knew there was a community forum... was it better than this? Ed F

From: Mad Trapper
21-Jun-19
I have no skin in this game, but feel compelled to comment as a member of several conservation organizations. I like it when the organizations raffle off hunts- particularly sheep hunts as it gives those folks who normally can’t afford such a hunt the chance of going on one. I have heard stories where guys have bought up the majority of the tickets and win the hunt. Good for them. I have no angst for them. They played by the rules and they won. My problem is with the rules. I think that either there should be no limit on number of tickets sold or in cases where the number of tickets is limited, then an individual should be limited to one or two tickets. I do have a problem if a leader of the organization uses their position to better their odds over the rank and file members also participating in the raffle. My two cents.

From: Beav
21-Jun-19
Mad Trapper x2!

From: BOWUNTR
21-Jun-19
The leaders of the organization shouldn't be allowed to enter the drawing.... period. Why put yourself in that situation. Ed F

From: midwest
21-Jun-19
MT x 3

From: Bake
21-Jun-19
I'm not sure this is a "buying all the tickets to a raffle" issue. . . .

I don't know what happened. I'm just guessing. I'm not sure how WSF does their raffles and/or auctions. As the winner of a GSCO raffle a few years ago, I got the following impression: The outfitter donated a hunt to the organization for the discounted cost of $18,000, when the normal hunt cost $22,000. I'm sure different organizations do them differently. And I'm sure some raffles (for the lower cost hunts) are pure donations by an outfitter, and others (higher cost hunts) are partly donation, and partly a discount to the organization. I guess, there's some people in this thread high up in some organizations that would know a lot better than me.

What I imagine could happen is that Outfitter X normally donates a hunt to WSF for a discounted price to the organization. So for example, maybe the hunt is normally $35k. And the outfitter donates it to the organization for $28k. If somebody knew this information, they could offer $28k to the outfitter for the hunt, and maybe the outfitter then doesn't donate to the organization that year. . . .

This is interesting to me as a life member of WSF.

From: TSJ
21-Jun-19
To anybody’s knowledge has anyone bought all the tickets for a hunt that is being raffled before the tickets go up for sale.

From: Whitey
21-Jun-19
Rule # 2. Ethical Persecution is not allowed

Good for Kyle assuming all of the conjecture is true. He was smart enough to figure out a way to reach a goal. In America you used to get rewarded for finding away to win, now everyone cries it’s not fair and even. I may not go about it the same way but I would congratulate the guy for figuring it out. This is America ladies not France you don’t like the out come work to change the rules going forward. You don’t punish someone for winning by the current rules.

From: njbuck
21-Jun-19
As a life member of the WSF I am very interested in this. It would be a true shame if its possible for donated hunts to be taken away from the better cause by an individual.

From: kota-man
21-Jun-19
Matt/GG...The "CF" doesn't count. I've been around "awhile" myself and honestly don't recall him posting much on the "regular" forums. Just always seems odd to me when a non-regular shows up to stoutly defend someone. Almost seems suspicious...Just an observation.

From: Brotsky
21-Jun-19
Bake, you are 100% on the money with how the raffles work, at least that's how they work with RMEF which I have experience with. We negotiate a price for the hunt with the outfitter, it can be as low as free, or 50% of the hunt cost, all the way up to full price and anywhere in between. Then we design the raffle or banquet game around the price to insure the best return on our investment for the org. If we have an outfitter offer the hunt at X amount then we plan to raise Y amount to pay for it and the overage benefits the cause (typically we try to leave it uncapped if possible to generate as much income for conservation as we can). In this situation I can only assume that the total cost of all the raffle tickets was going to be less than a standard hunt cost, that the outfitter had negotiated a lower rate than that with the foundation, and that the individual involved used his knowledge of the situation and position within the foundation to attempt to undermine the membership by buying up all the raffle tickets prior to a public offering. End result would be him getting a sheep hunt at a discounted rate, foundation would still receive some proceeds, common membership gets screwed out of any chance to win a sheep hunt. If I were a member of a foundation that had leadership behave in this way I would seriously consider changing leadership. Based upon how a certain foundation's leadership testified here in SD a couple of weeks ago it may be needed. Those of us that went to bat are still hearing crickets on that situation.

From: kota-man
21-Jun-19
I always considered the "CF" to be part of "the dark web"... :) And I've ALWAYs been a big fan of a good "love-fest".

From: bigeasygator
21-Jun-19
End result would be him getting a sheep hunt at a discounted rate, foundation would still receive some proceeds

If Kyle were buying all the raffle tickets, yea. But he didn’t say Kyle was attempting to buy all the raffle tickets as I read it. He said Kyle reached out to the outfitter to buy tag(s) before they ever landed in the hands of the WSF, as I read it. Raffle tags and raffle tickets are two different things. Again, nothing illegal. But it seems like this arrangement would cut out any benefit to the WSF. I could have it wrong, but that’s the way I’m reading things.

From: Ace
21-Jun-19
I bet this thread has Pat rethinking the decision to deep-six the CF.

Should we start a pool on how long until it gets "locked"?

From: Brotsky
21-Jun-19
BEG, you are correct sir, that is a subtle but very important distinction, and an even shadier impact.

From: Rut Nut
21-Jun-19
Either way you look at it, it sounds to me like an Officer of an organization used his knowledge and/or position to gain a (personal)benefit........................................................may not be illegal, but it definitely is NOT "the right thing to do" in my opinion!

From: Grey Ghost
21-Jun-19
"I always considered the "CF" to be part of "the dark web"... :) And I've ALWAYs been a big fan of a good "love-fest".

Notice how strange this sounds, when the post you were responding to gets poofed?

Matt

From: kota-man
21-Jun-19
Always the case here...and to think I "edited" in the "love-fest" part...dang.

21-Jun-19
Rut,

That is my concern. I agree with Matt that innocent until proven guilty, but the fact that Kyle has remained silent when several have attempted to have him respond says a lot IMO.

Before this does get locked, right now this is looking like a black mark on hunting, and conservation. We need to clean up our own act or suffer the repercussions when enough of these incidences expose to the public that we are no better than those we love to criticize.

I am disappointed Kyle.

Let me add, if the other officers of this organization knew what happened before hand, and if it is true, they are no better. Again if true, a house cleaning led by the membership should be encouraged. If they did not know before, they need to take action now.

From: Grey Ghost
21-Jun-19
Suffice to say, I doubt Kyle will be doing a "Live hunt" on this one.

;-)

Matt

This Topic has been locked. Thank you.

  • Sitka Gear