Next year I have a combo float trip hunt in ANWR for Grizzly, Dalls and Caribou.
I bought it originally as a SW Alaska bear hunt, but then the outfitter sold his bear area so he gave me this combo hunt in exchange.
I was planning to focus on Grizzlys first, but now that I'll likely tag a Desert ram in CA, plus the Dall next year (which also highly likely) would get me 3/4 of the way to my second FNAWS, needing just a Stone to do that. But Stone hunts are really pricey so that's how drawing this CA tag could end up costing me a bunch!
Congrats! There are some awesome tags being drawn by the bowsite crew! I can’t wait to see all the pictures and read all the stories!!!!! I hope we see a lot of positivity and keep the bitching, complaining, jealousy and not so subtle jabs to a minimum...
As best I understand it, everyone (with max points) is in the same pool for the preference tags, regardless of residency. Then, everyone remaining is in the same pool for the random tags, regardless of residency. But with the total draw being subjected, all along the way, to the NR ceiling.If it wasn't done that way, there'd be little reason for a NR with less than max points to apply.
There's no archery only sheep tags in CA. There's some nice things about CA sheep tags, but archery-only for better draw odds is not one of them.
The seasons are long (most are over 2 months) and there's not a lot of tags given out so there's mature rams in every unit. In CA, more rams die of old age than are shot by hunters, although the #1 reason for that is that so many of the sheep are in areas or herds that are off-limits to hunting for a variety of reasons (game reserves, state and national parks, military bases, or sub-sub-sub species that are considered threatened or endangered).
This year there were over 20 sheep tags, so NR’s were allotted 2 tags. That unit had 6 total tags this year, meaning 5 went to max point holders. If the applicant numbers remained the same those are killer desert sheep odds. As far as the NR cap goes, for sure you got lucky, but you don't know your true odds if you don’t know the % of max point holders that are R/NR. Who are the “Rain man” types who compute odds on this site? If the max point applicant pool is comprised of 10% NR’s and the NR quota is 10% of the permits then being a NR is of no statistical significance right?
Odds Bodkins!! All I would care about is I got a tag. The most sought after tag on the planet. Kyle I know you’re a mountain man but you might want to carry something for altitude sickness. Terry A about died up there. He had been up there many times but it almost killed him. Had it not been for an EMT that worked for him and an inhaler he could have died from fluid filling his lungs. Here’s some White Mountains rams
"It'd take almost 100 years for the other 16,346 of us to get a shot at those tag."
A lot of the people with max points will drop out due to age, infirmities, etc.
Plus, pick the most physically challenging unit you can, as a lot of folks won't apply there because of the physical challenge. That alone will dramatically increase you chances of drawing. It's also one of the reasons I applied in the Whites.
That is certainly the case in the Whites, as the number of applicants there is quite low compared to the other units.
The problem with that is that it would take BHS management out of the hands of the states, which is where it belongs.
It would also penalize those states which a good job of managing their sheep while subsidizing those states which don't.
Besides, UT and CA are already once-in-a-lifetime tags. NV is essentially OIL as well as it will probably take a RESIDENT twenty years to draw. If he does, he can't apply for ten years. At that point it will likely take 25-30 more years to draw again.
That leaves just AZ and NM and I don't know what their policies are.
Who wouldn’t do “just about anything” to obtain a good price on a sheep hunt? With in reason of course. Nobody, especially someone like Kyle who cares so much about the sheep like would consider or do anything nefarious.
That should be a troublesome statement for everyone on bowsite to read. Most of us here are about fairness. Fair chase bowhunting. Fair treatment of animals. Fair actions towards other ethical bowhunters.
Most of us follow a code of conduct. Such as not screwing over other hunters for personal gain, having respect for organizations looking toward the greater good for hunters and animals, even simple things like knowing regulations of what is legal and illegal to do and shot in the field. Basic decencies.
It should bother others when some says that anything “might” be on the table—depending on what “anything” is...
I can’t imagine a guy like Zack would make allegations like this without some sort of evidence. Kyle, in the last few years it sure seems like your actions, integrity and intentions have been questioned several times. You know what they say, where there is smoke there is likely a fire. Hmmm...
I’m with BOWUNTR, desert sheep should be one n done. I’ve taken mine on the same tag Kyle drew (also as a NR) and would gladly never apply for another in any state if those were the rules for everyone.
I respect you and your opinions. This is not a failure to communicate at all. I am actually fairly competent at communicating. I feel like I communicated my last question pretty clearly for Kyle to respond. If not, I have no problem making it more clear for everyone.
Scott, Kyle has every opportunity to respond to my question. He hasn’t. And when he does, I would hope it to be truthful. We will wait until then. In case it isn’t available above:
Kyle, did you talk to an outfitter recently about trying to buy all of the raffle tags he is donating as a fundraiser to a foundation recently?
Oh yeah, did you do that while usurping and ignoring the foundation that was supposed to be the recipient of the donation? Possibly a foundation which you have repeatedly taken full credit for its existence?
AZ and NM deserts are 1x in a lifetime, so is UT and CO. I know a guy who has drawn 3 in NV alone. Back to the odds thing, I am still waiting to hear where I was not correct... Where are the Rain Man types?! If NR are limited to 10% of the tags but, as shown, make up less than 10% of the drawing pool, isn’t it statistically insignificant that they are capped at 10%.
The Marine in me likes to make things simple, and with colors. Think about it in terms of low numbers, if there are 10 marbles in a jar, one red, and nine blue, and only one red can be drawn, then no more...well, all blue could be drawn, but the red one can also be drawn...if there was more than 10% of the pool red marbles different story, but that isn’t the case. Agree that the CA drawing system is a total sham.
Well I’m glad to see someone like Kyle get drawn. You’ve done so much for wild sheep that benefits all that have been drawn and will get drawn. Now I wish poor old Terry Anderson would drawn for something.
I'm playing the Game Like Kyle trying to draw sheep tags in different states lots of you are. I'm playing the Game in Montana I drew a ram tag in 2008 and a ewe tag in 2010 I'm going into this years draw with 7 points with a 7 year wait after drawing a tag I should only have 3 points but in Montana you can apply every year for ewe tags So that's what I did is find the hardest ewe tag in Montana to apply for In Montana a sheep bonus point is just that its not a ram or ewe point its a sheep point That's how I got the 4 extra bonus points my odds are still high but i'm playing the game. In 2008 when I drew my 680 es sheep tag I was in the Hospial I had just had a quad Buypass every one told me I would not be able to hunt it with my Bow But I did I waited 46 years to draw the tag but I would have ate the tag before I would take it with a gun That's just Me Kyle can and will take it however he wants. its his business On the other hand this site is called bowsite
"GG, can you please tell us where we can all go DIY hunt Stones, Bighorns, Desert Bighorns or Dall's without either drawing a permit or living in Alaska without paying the going rate for a sheep hunt?"
I never claimed "we all" could. But, DIY opportunities do exist for those who have no interest in having their hand held thru a hunt, or don't have the resources for it, if they are willing to wait, and are lucky enough to draw a tag.
I was blessed to draw a coveted CO Bighorn tag several years ago. After scouting all summer, I knew the unit better than most of the guides up there. I could have killed a ram with a rifle on almost every day of the season. As it was, I only got one shot with my bow, which I missed. Despite that, it remains one of my most memorable hunts.
Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I never wanted to kill any animal badly enough to spend $40-100K on it. And I certainly have no desire to be guided on a hunt. Figuring things out myself is half the fun for me.
"I never claimed "we all" could. But, DIY opportunities do exist for those who have no interest in having their hand held thru a hunt, or don't have the resources for it, if they are willing to wait, and are lucky enough to draw a tag. "
You're right, you said... "Why does everyone talk about $40 -100K for a sheep hunt? Doesn't anyone DIY hunt any more?"
The answer is, a VAST majority of those who'd like to hunt sheep and those that do hunt sheep will never have the DIY option.
That meme made me laugh, mostly because it's so true.
As you may know, I was a partner in an outfitting business over a decade ago. I'm ashamed to admit that. I met far too many "hunters" whose only desire was to have a wall like that meme, despite the cost, or the lack of challenge in getting it. It opened my eyes to how the commercialization of hunting is ruining it for the vast majority of true hunters.
GG Agreed it’s the hard won things in life that are meaningful. I’m sitting on max points in wa as well for sheep, goat and moose. The fun in order for me is planning ,pouring over topos, scouting, figuring a new area out , the months of anticipation leading up to hauling into camp, camp and just being there, then the hunt, then the years of memories knowing you put it all together yourself.
I met far too many "hunters" whose only desire was to have a wall like that meme, despite the cost, or the lack of challenge in getting it. It opened my eyes to how the commercialization of hunting is ruining it for the vast majority of true hunters.
While I don’t doubt that there are hunters out there whose number one priority is purely putting that animal on that wall and whose behaviors in support of this goal are less than admirable, I know for a fact there are loads of other hunters who just like to seek out the adventure and challenge of hunting new species in new areas. I’d consider myself one of them. And while, yes, the nature of the beast is that many of these hunts require a guide and many of these hunts require a five figure investment, the fun is still in planning, researching a new area, getting to know the behaviors of a different species, the anticipation of pulling (or landing, or riding) into camp, the challenge of surviving in a hostile environment, and the potential that you might just get lucky enough for the chips to fall into place. As primarily a bowhunter, I’m bringing back memories more often than I’m bringing back meat for the freezer or a mount for the wall...and I wouldn’t have it any other way.
When I first started elk hunting in the 90s I really wanted to hunt in AZ. Back then I would have had to wait 10-12 years for a great zone. I just thought that’s too long. Well here it is 24 years latter. I could have been drawn possibly twice. Even with max points I knew I would never get drawn for sheep but I kept applying. One thing for sure if you don’t apply and consistently apply you will never get drawn. That’s the most important advice I give people when they ask how I got drawn. I have kept the Ca big game hunting digests for as long as point system started. Every year I get them out to study. I look for trends in how many people apply for which zones. It may not matter a bit but I still do it. I have had Max points in Ca. I applied for the unit that had the most tags. That’s a no brainer. It also doesn’t have the largest rams. With elk I know a lot of guys apply for Grizzly Island. 1 tag!! Really? There are units that give out tags in the 20s. Many people only apply for units with high success rates. In Ca I have to realize that a lot of people that get drawn maybe the first time they’ve ever hunted that species. That is one reason success rates can be low. The unit Kyle was drawn for us the toughest unit here because of the altitude and weather. 14,000 feet is nothing to sneeze at. Late summer can have thunderstorms up there that you don’t want to be in. A number of people over the years turn in their tag after they try and go scouting. My best advice is start applying and never quit, NEVER!
The statement that the vast majority of people who would like to hunt sheep will never have the DIY option is totally false. You can hunt DIY sheep in Montana every single year, until you kill one, in the unlimited areas. Now, you probably aren't going to get one, and it's tough hunting. However, it's not going to be some huge ram from the Missouri Breaks that stands there while you walk up to it, but the option to hunt Bighorn sheep is there for everyone every year.
"the vast majority of people who would like to hunt sheep will never have the DIY option is totally false"
Of course MT Unlimited is an option, but not a very good one. I stand by what I said and will continue too. Either you live in AK or Canada, or you get extremely lucky and draw a permit for the L48... Hell, even guys like the OP hire a guide when they have the DIY option available.
If everyone that wanted to hunt sheep went to MT, those areas would turn into a draw as well I'd guess.
I didn't say that there was anything easy about the MT unlimited option. My experience is that there is nothing easy about it at all. Not for everyone, that is for sure. It all depends on what you want to get out of it, some people might not get a lot of satisfaction out of having a guide lead them to a sheep in Alaska, and might get more out of an unsuccessful unlimited hunt in Montana. If you want to hunt sheep and don't mind the fact that it is extremely difficult, the option is there.
Zack's from Cali and a millennial, so I figure he's probably part Democrat...
But he's not a liar and he will post an answer when asked a question.
The deal here is not whether someone tried buying a TAG from an outfitter at a discounted price. It has to do with someone skirting a CONSERVATION organization and trying to buy all of the tickets (which the CONSERVATION ORGANIZATION should set the number sold) before they had the opportunity to even secure the tag.
I have no problem with anyone trying to find a deal on a hunt, (heck they all are expensive), but to skirt a CONSERVATION ORGANIZATION in the process shows ones true character. And that really explains enough about that person's character and intent.
How does this thread make a positive impact on the organization and the outfitter. Even if the allegations are untrue, it seems addressing them would be in the best interests of the organization. Kyle, if untrue, say so. If true, then you should be able to explain how this helps a conservation effort that means a lot to you.
Most will recall someone bought all the tickets for the Bowhunters of Wyoming raffle last year, securing a tag. That individual paid full price for all tickets, and the organization sold out for the first time in years, bringing in maximum revenue for the conservation group. You would have thought the hunter was the incarnation of evil, from the hate spilled on these pages.
While not directly related to the OP in this thread, if the veiled accusations on this thread are to be believed, something similar may have occurred / been attempted this year. I have a hard time seeing the fault in a guy paying the full asking price and buying out a raffle. In the case of BOW, they increased the maximum ticket sales this year, and limited individual transaction to a small number of tickets. I have no problem with this, and they may have even made more money than previously. It is all about raising money for the resource, right?
Jealousy rears its ugly head in all walks of life. I know none of the particulars in this case, but it smells more of pettiness than actual wrong doing.
I have no skin in this game, but feel compelled to comment as a member of several conservation organizations. I like it when the organizations raffle off hunts- particularly sheep hunts as it gives those folks who normally can’t afford such a hunt the chance of going on one. I have heard stories where guys have bought up the majority of the tickets and win the hunt. Good for them. I have no angst for them. They played by the rules and they won. My problem is with the rules. I think that either there should be no limit on number of tickets sold or in cases where the number of tickets is limited, then an individual should be limited to one or two tickets. I do have a problem if a leader of the organization uses their position to better their odds over the rank and file members also participating in the raffle. My two cents.
I'm not sure this is a "buying all the tickets to a raffle" issue. . . .
I don't know what happened. I'm just guessing. I'm not sure how WSF does their raffles and/or auctions. As the winner of a GSCO raffle a few years ago, I got the following impression: The outfitter donated a hunt to the organization for the discounted cost of $18,000, when the normal hunt cost $22,000. I'm sure different organizations do them differently. And I'm sure some raffles (for the lower cost hunts) are pure donations by an outfitter, and others (higher cost hunts) are partly donation, and partly a discount to the organization. I guess, there's some people in this thread high up in some organizations that would know a lot better than me.
What I imagine could happen is that Outfitter X normally donates a hunt to WSF for a discounted price to the organization. So for example, maybe the hunt is normally $35k. And the outfitter donates it to the organization for $28k. If somebody knew this information, they could offer $28k to the outfitter for the hunt, and maybe the outfitter then doesn't donate to the organization that year. . . .
This is interesting to me as a life member of WSF.
Good for Kyle assuming all of the conjecture is true. He was smart enough to figure out a way to reach a goal. In America you used to get rewarded for finding away to win, now everyone cries it’s not fair and even. I may not go about it the same way but I would congratulate the guy for figuring it out. This is America ladies not France you don’t like the out come work to change the rules going forward. You don’t punish someone for winning by the current rules.
Matt/GG...The "CF" doesn't count. I've been around "awhile" myself and honestly don't recall him posting much on the "regular" forums. Just always seems odd to me when a non-regular shows up to stoutly defend someone. Almost seems suspicious...Just an observation.
Bake, you are 100% on the money with how the raffles work, at least that's how they work with RMEF which I have experience with. We negotiate a price for the hunt with the outfitter, it can be as low as free, or 50% of the hunt cost, all the way up to full price and anywhere in between. Then we design the raffle or banquet game around the price to insure the best return on our investment for the org. If we have an outfitter offer the hunt at X amount then we plan to raise Y amount to pay for it and the overage benefits the cause (typically we try to leave it uncapped if possible to generate as much income for conservation as we can). In this situation I can only assume that the total cost of all the raffle tickets was going to be less than a standard hunt cost, that the outfitter had negotiated a lower rate than that with the foundation, and that the individual involved used his knowledge of the situation and position within the foundation to attempt to undermine the membership by buying up all the raffle tickets prior to a public offering. End result would be him getting a sheep hunt at a discounted rate, foundation would still receive some proceeds, common membership gets screwed out of any chance to win a sheep hunt. If I were a member of a foundation that had leadership behave in this way I would seriously consider changing leadership. Based upon how a certain foundation's leadership testified here in SD a couple of weeks ago it may be needed. Those of us that went to bat are still hearing crickets on that situation.
End result would be him getting a sheep hunt at a discounted rate, foundation would still receive some proceeds
If Kyle were buying all the raffle tickets, yea. But he didn’t say Kyle was attempting to buy all the raffle tickets as I read it. He said Kyle reached out to the outfitter to buy tag(s) before they ever landed in the hands of the WSF, as I read it. Raffle tags and raffle tickets are two different things. Again, nothing illegal. But it seems like this arrangement would cut out any benefit to the WSF. I could have it wrong, but that’s the way I’m reading things.
Either way you look at it, it sounds to me like an Officer of an organization used his knowledge and/or position to gain a (personal)benefit........................................................may not be illegal, but it definitely is NOT "the right thing to do" in my opinion!
That is my concern. I agree with Matt that innocent until proven guilty, but the fact that Kyle has remained silent when several have attempted to have him respond says a lot IMO.
Before this does get locked, right now this is looking like a black mark on hunting, and conservation. We need to clean up our own act or suffer the repercussions when enough of these incidences expose to the public that we are no better than those we love to criticize.
I am disappointed Kyle.
Let me add, if the other officers of this organization knew what happened before hand, and if it is true, they are no better. Again if true, a house cleaning led by the membership should be encouraged. If they did not know before, they need to take action now.