Mathews Inc.
Government corruption?
Wild Sheep
Contributors to this thread:
BOWUNTR 15-Jun-19
Bigdan 15-Jun-19
fubar racin 15-Jun-19
Tobpitbull 15-Jun-19
trkyslr 15-Jun-19
Jaquomo 15-Jun-19
kota-man 15-Jun-19
Drnaln 15-Jun-19
Glunt@work 15-Jun-19
badguybuster 15-Jun-19
TreeWalker 15-Jun-19
NvaGvUp 15-Jun-19
Zim 15-Jun-19
BOWUNTR 15-Jun-19
'Ike' (Phone) 15-Jun-19
NvaGvUp 15-Jun-19
'Ike' (Phone) 15-Jun-19
BOWUNTR 15-Jun-19
iceman 15-Jun-19
Cazador 15-Jun-19
'Ike' (Phone) 15-Jun-19
WapitiBob 15-Jun-19
BOWUNTR 15-Jun-19
trkyslr 15-Jun-19
WapitiBob 15-Jun-19
Cazador 15-Jun-19
BOWUNTR 15-Jun-19
BOWUNTR 15-Jun-19
WapitiBob 15-Jun-19
'Ike' (Phone) 15-Jun-19
Coyote 65 15-Jun-19
Warden609 15-Jun-19
Ermine 15-Jun-19
Stekewood 15-Jun-19
Yellowjacket 15-Jun-19
altitude sick 15-Jun-19
Adventurewriter 15-Jun-19
Trial153 15-Jun-19
GhostBird 15-Jun-19
NvaGvUp 15-Jun-19
NvaGvUp 15-Jun-19
BOHNTR 15-Jun-19
WV Mountaineer 15-Jun-19
NvaGvUp 15-Jun-19
Ron Niziolek 15-Jun-19
Trial153 15-Jun-19
'Ike' (Phone) 15-Jun-19
Brotsky 15-Jun-19
Mulehorn 15-Jun-19
Cazador 15-Jun-19
Stoneman 15-Jun-19
IdyllwildArcher 15-Jun-19
Ermine 16-Jun-19
midwest 18-Jun-19
Rut Nut 18-Jun-19
bowhunter1 18-Jun-19
akbow 18-Jun-19
Zackman 18-Jun-19
sticksender 18-Jun-19
kota-man 18-Jun-19
Brotsky 18-Jun-19
Brotsky 18-Jun-19
Ron Niziolek 18-Jun-19
Grey Ghost 18-Jun-19
elkstabber 18-Jun-19
Bake 18-Jun-19
Kurt 18-Jun-19
'Ike' (Phone) 18-Jun-19
Ron Niziolek 18-Jun-19
Heat 18-Jun-19
Grey Ghost 18-Jun-19
ki-ke 18-Jun-19
ki-ke 18-Jun-19
Cazador 18-Jun-19
JayZ 18-Jun-19
Adventurewriter 18-Jun-19
Grey Ghost 18-Jun-19
Adventurewriter 18-Jun-19
midwest 18-Jun-19
wild1 18-Jun-19
loesshillsarcher 18-Jun-19
ki-ke 18-Jun-19
LWood 18-Jun-19
Mike-TN 18-Jun-19
trkyslr 18-Jun-19
BOWUNTR 18-Jun-19
APauls 18-Jun-19
MQQSE 18-Jun-19
JSW 18-Jun-19
TEmbry 19-Jun-19
Dave 19-Jun-19
Southern draw 19-Jun-19
South Farm 20-Jun-19
Grey Ghost 20-Jun-19
painless 20-Jun-19
DConcrete 20-Jun-19
moosenelson 20-Jun-19
bigeasygator 20-Jun-19
HUNT MAN 20-Jun-19
sticksender 20-Jun-19
Brotsky 20-Jun-19
'Ike' (Phone) 20-Jun-19
Boreal 20-Jun-19
JayZ 20-Jun-19
Irishman 20-Jun-19
Brotsky 20-Jun-19
Matt 20-Jun-19
mpesto 20-Jun-19
greg simon 20-Jun-19
mpesto 20-Jun-19
leo17 20-Jun-19
Owl 20-Jun-19
Trial153 20-Jun-19
Owl 20-Jun-19
Owl 20-Jun-19
sticksender 20-Jun-19
WV Mountaineer 20-Jun-19
Owl 20-Jun-19
Brotsky 20-Jun-19
BOWUNTR 20-Jun-19
bigeasygator 20-Jun-19
'Ike' (Phone) 20-Jun-19
Matt 21-Jun-19
Dirk Diggler 21-Jun-19
'Ike' (Phone) 21-Jun-19
JTV 21-Jun-19
Nick Muche 21-Jun-19
Brotsky 21-Jun-19
EmbryOklahoma 21-Jun-19
mountainman 21-Jun-19
Dave 21-Jun-19
GhostBird 21-Jun-19
Brotsky 21-Jun-19
Rut Nut 21-Jun-19
'Ike' (Phone) 21-Jun-19
kota-man 21-Jun-19
TEmbry 21-Jun-19
Grey Ghost 21-Jun-19
From: BOWUNTR
15-Jun-19
Soooo.... I think this is fair question. Do you think that there are shenanigans behind the scenes with F&G tag allocations? I'm sure you've heard of that guy... the guy connected to F&G who draws a few coveted tags. I do believe that government corruption exists at small levels, no doubt. Ed F

From: Bigdan
15-Jun-19
Yes I do when you see guys that get on the bad side of F&G I think some get locked out to and never draw a tag

From: fubar racin
15-Jun-19
I think it exists on more than small levels to be perfectly honest. I don’t know about in the world of tag draws but I’m fairly sure it happens in our leftover / returned tags in Colorado.

15-Jun-19
Corruption exists because of a lack of integrity and conviction...integrity and convictions come from truth which is Jesus Christ.... He is truth.... as long as men reject Jesus Christ they reject truth, thus there will always be corruption as long as Christ is rejected.

My thoughts on corrode any level!

God bless America

BTW.... we have a president/Vice President that is cleaning some of this up as we speak!

From: trkyslr
15-Jun-19
Yes

From: Jaquomo
15-Jun-19
If Jesus was in charge of the draws, I'd say no. But a few people I know of who happen to be connected in some way can't be THAT "lucky".

I believe the same thing goes on with allocation of LO vouchers.

From: kota-man
15-Jun-19
Interesting topic...I can see how it could easily be an issue.

From: Drnaln
15-Jun-19
No

From: Glunt@work
15-Jun-19
Pretty much anything of value is a target for dishonesty or corruption. Just the way the world is.

I think the basic draw is probably legit in most cases but things like deals with landowners, property use, spending, etc are all political chess pieces and no one should be too surprised if they find out some sweetheart deals have been made. In CO, some are right out in the open and worn as badges of merit.

From: badguybuster
15-Jun-19
Undoubtedly. We all know connected people who miraculously draw coveted tags regularly

From: TreeWalker
15-Jun-19
A well-known, now-retired taxidermist emphatically told me in early 1990s when I met him that Oregon F&G had this situation in the sheep draw and likely in other draws.

Sour grapes? Maybe. But when a tag or two ends up in hands of brother-in-laws and sons-in-laws of key state officials then you at a minimum have the appearance of a rigged deal.

I never enter private hunt drawings. Have seen how things get rigged at trade show drawings with a crinkled card or bent edge or mere say the name of the "winner" no matter what the drawn card says.

SFW sure had some lucky key executives and buddies in the 200-tag Expo draws at that welfare event. Appearance is sometimes a bad look even if was on the up and up. Any organization that has the "we can't show you our books" culture likely has its own idea of what is fair.

From: NvaGvUp
15-Jun-19
And which guy would we be talking about, Ed?

How does a guy have those sorts of 'connections' in multiple states?

Then here's the biggy: In a world where whistle blowers are everywhere, how could such a thing be kept private?

From: Zim
15-Jun-19
Of course. If the government is involved, there is rampant corruption. Anyone who argues differently either works for the government or is hopelessly naive. History is wrought with examples.

From: BOWUNTR
15-Jun-19
I didn't mention anyone... hmmm. Don't be gettin' all crazy on me.

Your case raises the hair on the back of my neck which prompted me to see if others have seen it. To draw the non resident Ca elk tag AND sheep tag are astronomical odds and I'll bet the moon that it hasn't been done and will never be done.

I worked 30 years in local government in California... corruption is 100% possible... seen it. I'll agree with you, for a conspiracy to work, all involved have to keep their mouth shut over time.... very difficult. But, greed is on the conspirators mind at the time, not getting caught. Time usually prevails and the whistle blower comes forward. That's my 2 cents.... wondered what everyone else's perspective is. Ed F

15-Jun-19
Corruption or crazy lucky...I don't believe in the crazy lucky part when it comes to our DF&G...Ironic is a good word...

From: NvaGvUp
15-Jun-19
Note also that the draws are not conducted by the state agencies.

The draws are contracted out to private companies. That means that twice as many different organizations would have to be in on the scam.

I know a lot of sheep hunters and several of them have drawn multiple sheep tags over the years, all because of applying in every state every year.

I also know there are a several guys who have drawn two sheep tags in the same year and a few years ago, a guy in Minnesota got three in one year.

Near as I can tell, Minnesota has no sheep tags.

15-Jun-19
Must still be thinking on Zacks question...

From: BOWUNTR
15-Jun-19
All that stuff is a no brainer... the California thing is bamboozling... Ed F

From: iceman
15-Jun-19
You beat me to it, Ike. Posted today on this thread, but no answer to the question on the other one. Hmm.

From: Cazador
15-Jun-19

Cazador's Link
Lot of noise on both threads and I hope it’s not jealousy of tags etc.

Meanwhile, I thought the link attached is what some are trying to convey.

15-Jun-19
No jealousy at all, unfortunately organizations sometimes become corrupt...

From: WapitiBob
15-Jun-19
Its virtually impossible to manipulate a draw.

Btw, Wyoming and Arizona do their draws in house.

The Odfw scandal was a flaw in the canceled hunt procedure, not a draw issue and that has been fixed.

From: BOWUNTR
15-Jun-19
Yeah, you can't outsmart a computer. But what if one tag was held from the computer drawing? I don't know... sounds like it would work. Probably a lot more scenarios like that, that us lay people cannot think of. Ed F

From: trkyslr
15-Jun-19
And it is California.... nuf said

From: WapitiBob
15-Jun-19
An individual can’t withhold a tag, too many audits.

From: Cazador
15-Jun-19
Who needs wolves!

From: BOWUNTR
15-Jun-19
Explain please....

Ok, I'm the head guy in charge of the tags. I tell the private company how many tags are available and who the applicants are. Except, i didn't tell them about the tag i had in my hip pocket for my buddy. Nobody else knows except me and my buddy. I tell everyone that I did the audit and report that everything is A OK. I don't know... just thinking out loud. Ed F

From: BOWUNTR
15-Jun-19
I too want to believe that corruption doesn't exist.... Glunt nailed it about anything of value being subject to this. I'm sure we'll agree that some of these tags are very valuable. Some would do whatever it takes to get their hands on one. Ed F

From: WapitiBob
15-Jun-19
The draws don’t work that way there are a whole bunch of people in the chain.

15-Jun-19
Yes, but you don’t know our DF&G...

From: Coyote 65
15-Jun-19
Neighbor of mine back in the late 90's drew AZ early bull 23 N two years in a row, and his son drew it the 3rd year. He is a joe blow, no connections at all. Now he only puts in for cow as doesn't have wall space for any more bulls.

Terry

From: Warden609
15-Jun-19
If people are involved corruption exists.

From: Ermine
15-Jun-19
I don’t think there is rigged draws at the state level. But I could see it in some of the organizations out there. I think there could be some sketchy things going on in regards to guys winning tags.. With that said I drew a moose and a mountain goat tag this year. The odds of drawing both on the same year is probably pretty tiny to almost impossible. But I drew.. and I’m a blue collar guy And the state of Colorado has no reason to give me any special tags because I’m a nobody. So to me it’s proof the Colorado draw is random and any random guy can get the good tags.

From: Stekewood
15-Jun-19
"Probably a lot more scenarios like that, that us lay people cannot think of."

I think the lay people are already thinking too hard......

From: Yellowjacket
15-Jun-19
Maybe not corruption but I do know for a fact Colorado screwed me out of the sheep draw for 5 years back in the 90's. Someone with the same name as me and a birthday only a couple days apart had killed a ram and they kicked me out during his 5 year wait period. All I ever got was the unsuccessful letter each year. No mention at all that I wasn't even in the drawings!

15-Jun-19
What! A corrupt government? No way!

I actually think there is plenty of corruption,

but most governments are so incompetent that A talented person inside could pull ANYTHING off. If it can happen with the CIA and the NSA. It can happen in a podunk state govt.

15-Jun-19
Anything that passes through human hands is open for corruption add a high value and you can bet on it...I was roommates with a guy in Iraq....20 year Cleveland investigation Lt and was the go to expert as far as being a expert witness for court cases wrote a book on carnival game cheating and he laughed out loud when i asked him about drawings saying it is the easiest thing to rig drawings and rattled off 15 different easy ways... You think 5 grand to somebody that has access to the draw computer might garner some favor??? The people watching it all are the same one that ran the draw a few years back and had to run it again casue they forgot to put non res's in the mix...

From: Trial153
15-Jun-19
I would be more surprised if there wasn’t in both state drawing and private organizations.

From: GhostBird
15-Jun-19
As always... follow the money. No surprise here. Welcome to the American way. Friends, family, and dollars are standard fare.

From: NvaGvUp
15-Jun-19
"No jealousy at all, unfortunately organizations sometimes become corrupt...

Name one WSF organization where that applies.

Just one.

From: NvaGvUp
15-Jun-19
Iceman,

"Hmm."

"Hmm," what?

From: BOHNTR
15-Jun-19
Answer Zack’s question

15-Jun-19
Connected people surely get the benefits in all of life.

From: NvaGvUp
15-Jun-19
Here's my answer to Zack.

I haven't been to that thread today, nor do I intend to.

I don't respond to a-holes who lie, impune my character and make stuff up out of nowhere..

I hadn't considered ANY options/strategies/nor had any thoughts re. getting serious about booking a stone sheep until yesterday afternoon.

At that point. I got an idea, and emailed out a couple of questions to the other party.

If I get a reply which peaks my interest, I will then contact that party and perhaps then make an offer.

If they agree, we may do a deal. If they make a counter offer, I will consider it and may or may not accept.

In ALL cases, any agreement we might reach will be because the seller believes he will benefit and I will believe I will also benefit.

Simple negotiation where both parties come to an amicable agreement.

That's a far cry from what the uniformed a-hole has claimed.

Oh, and one more thing: If he lies about me one more time he's going need a really good lawyer and hope he has serious liability insurance which covers liable and defamation of character.

From: Ron Niziolek
15-Jun-19
The "uninformed a-hole" you refer to is a man of pretty solid character. You started the other thread. I find it rather odd you won't return to it.

From: Trial153
15-Jun-19
That answer is pretty much an admittance.

15-Jun-19
Who said it was WSF?!? Thanks for the assumption though! Ironic....

From: Brotsky
15-Jun-19
I live in one of the most corrupt states in the union. I 100% believe it’s real. Hell even WSF stood in front of our game commission a week ago and testified in favor of sheep auction dollars going to pheasant habitat programs.

From: Mulehorn
15-Jun-19
blah!

From: Cazador
15-Jun-19
I’m an American Airlines flyer currently on long trip back from Latin America. I’ve avoided drinks all day so So I can feel good about opening up the “80 days out elk thread”.

I now find myself sitting next to a 500lb female orca on the plane, who smells worse than my socks after a week long brook trout excursion, who is constantly scratching her tree trunk arms while her rat kids are kicking the back of my seat.

I’ve been forced to order a double gin and tonic. Corruption I say! Conspiracy!

I can’t say what I’m looking forward to more, the bottom of this Gin in tonic, the odds of this plane crashing due to overload, or the finale of the Cali guys vs ex cali guy .

Miss...... another double!

From: Stoneman
15-Jun-19
Dave likes skinny girls, but he wont say no to a fattie...

15-Jun-19
I do not believe there is any impropriety regarding western draw tags except for where the money is going at SFW. Money + no accounting = graft.

WapitiBob would be in the best position to answer this question and I agree with him. It's not possible. If there were shenanigans, it'd get out. Lastly, the risk vs reward is just not there. Potential jail time for a tag?

Honestly, Kyle's odds of drawing that sheep tag weren't that bad. Last year they'd have been about 1 in 75 although they're impossible to calculate due to the data they give us. This year, with more tags and a brand new unit opening up drawing off a bunch of interest from the White Mountains, his odds probably weren't that bad.

So really, he only had to get really lucky once and that was for the elk tag.

From: Ermine
16-Jun-19
Interesting thought. I guess corruption is possible. But I also know first hand drawing tags can be just random and mean nothing. I’ve been lucky to draw some great tags last two years. And I’m a nobody

From: midwest
18-Jun-19
Caz....you're drunk...wrong thread! lol

From: Rut Nut
18-Jun-19
WOW! After reading this thread and the "other" one, I am glad I don't have the $$, time, and/or desire to hunt sheep! Life is too short.....................................

From: bowhunter1
18-Jun-19
All I can say ,, I have been applying for 15 or more years for several species in more then one state ,, I still have not got lucky to get a tag,, it did not bother me at first because I wanted to hunt Alaska a lot,, now I am tired of the drawing , this year I decided that i am going on a good mule deer hunt in Colorado ,,so I cashed in 9 points for a 2 point area,,, so my opinon is that I am not that lucky and when I see certain guys draw several 0nce in a lifetime tags and these same guys work for the government or is high up in a organization that helps the government ,,yes I do think something fishy is up but on the second opinon of mine is that these same guys are out giving a lot of there personal time helping and giving sweat, stress for us ,so we can maybe enjoy a hunt or two in our lifetime.

From: akbow
18-Jun-19
Nva--you asked for one example of a corrupt WSF organization? FNAWS was the precursor to WSF, right? Alaska FNAWS had some pretty rampant corruption--including the President who was a convicted child molestor if I remember correctly.

From: Zackman
18-Jun-19
I will concede one point—I can be an a-hole. But I believe that everyone on here would agree with me that all of us have the ability to be—or act—like an a-hole. Some just do it more often than others...

That’s one thing I am. Here are some things I’m not:

I’m not uninformed.

I’m not a liar.

I’m not libelous. In order for something to be libel, it has to be a false statement. I don’t make false statements.

Generally speaking, here are other things I’m not:

I’m not someone that meets the same people over and over each year because unless someone can do something for me personally, they mean nothing to me. I remember people and things about people—how they treat others, what actions they take when they think no one is looking, etc. I keep all that info with me of the years.

Again, speaking only about myself, I’m not an egotistical and self-serving person, who takes every opportunity to tell anyone who will listen how incredible I am, under the disguise of conservation and promotion of wildlife. And I’m a millennial!!! That’s what we do!!

I’m not someone that eats alone at conservation shows or begs people to sit at my table just so it doesn’t look like I’m an outcast. I enjoy the company of others and make it a point to include anyone around in social engagement. Room 531 at P&Y is a good example...

I’m not someone who donates his time and money to conservation efforts in the open and behind the scenes tries to finagle anything possible to better my self image or benefit my outlook in some way. I enjoy being around people who are selfless when it comes to bettering the world around them. Those people are the real heros when it comes to wildlife conservation, not the ones that stand on a mountain top and scream out how amazing they are.

I’m also not someone who is going to go and cry to everyone just because someone said something about me I didn’t like in public or private. Like, hypothetically, someone calling me a liar and threatening to sue me for no logical reason. I try to act like an adult and take responsibility for my actions and how I react to others.

I’m not someone that does or says things hoping that others won’t find out about it. If I were to ever be in that position, I would probably want to reconsider my actions. I am not a person to blame others for my actions.

I am someone who likes to see the truth out in the open. I think that is a very important and overlooked aspect in our society. I wish more people were like that.

And for the record, to get back to the top of this thread, I don’t believe for a second that there is any type of corruption or manipulation of tags in CA game and fish. Some “Conservation organizations” are a completely different story.

From: sticksender
18-Jun-19
Good write-up Zackman. As far as the question posed by the OP....a few unbelievable, odds-defying events, are a guaranteed outcome in the state F&G lotteries. And instinctively, people will find it difficult to accept this simple mathematical truth about randomness. This skepticism surely isn't confined to just Bowsiter's. Over on MM they've been shouting for years about "the fix" in the Utah drawings, especially the HuntExpo ones. It seems to come up any time Heather Farrar draws something ;-)

From: kota-man
18-Jun-19
Insert standing ovation...

From: Brotsky
18-Jun-19

Brotsky's Link
I do agree that the corruption doesn’t happen in the lotteries per se. a perfect example of government corruption is awhile back here the Governor gave an elk tag to a NR DC lobbyist. Read about the chit storm that caused at my link. That’s the kind of corruption and quid pro quo I 100% believe is happening.

From: Brotsky
18-Jun-19
Ohhh....and did someone hear a mic drop in here? Anyone? :-)

From: Ron Niziolek
18-Jun-19
Well done.

From: Grey Ghost
18-Jun-19
Zack,

You obviously have something more to say, or you wouldn't be questioning Kyle's character in public. So, why don't you either come out with it, so the truth can be discussed, or drop it.

Matt

From: elkstabber
18-Jun-19
Thank you wapitibob, idyllwild archer, and sticksender. There are very very very few people who understand the various draw systems as well as these three.

From: Bake
18-Jun-19
I'd be interested in knowing what Zack knows, but really, it's not any of my business. I just like to know things. Nature of the business I'm in

I am involved in the legal business and spend half of my work time in the court system. I'm continually amazed at the people that think we have corruption (as far as money changing hands) in various parts of the system.

I'm not naïve enough to think it never happens, but I personally have never seen it. I can't imagine something like a state draw could be rigged. Too many eyes and ears to see and hear the wrongdoing. And if two people know, it's not a secret anymore. It would come out. Someone jealous about losing out on a promotion would spill the beans. . . .

From: Kurt
18-Jun-19
After all this deep intrigue I've got a light hearted story. My old and now deceased sheep hunting buddy Ray drew a non-resident desert bighorn tag in Nevada the first year he put in. He talked me into putting in the following year and I drew the non-resident DBH tag for the same unit! Odds were awful for one tag, but for two in two years?

At the mandatory NV sheep hunter training workshop following the great Fraternity of the Desert Bighorn Banquet, my buddy and I decided to have fun with the biologist doing the training session. He had asked us how in heck we drew the two NR tags back-to-back? We said simple...we just taped a fresh $20 bill to our application check as it was only $20 more dollars on top of the $900 application! The bio gave us a really strange look and said if we pulled any more DBS tags Nevada would start an investigation! I think he had some doubt whether or not we were pulling his leg! Anyway we got a lot of laughs out it, and both of us ended up with nice old desert rams.

18-Jun-19
GG, he did if you were paying attention...

From: Ron Niziolek
18-Jun-19
Grey Ghost, Zack spelled it out just fine on the "California here I come" thread. Since Kyle refused to comment any longer on that thread and began name calling, Zack responded on here.

From: Heat
18-Jun-19
I'm a nobody and I have drawn some sweet tags! That includes a once in a lifetime DBHS tag in my home state of Arizona along with a few more that were totally unexpected based on "odds". I seriously doubt anybody is actually cheating on these Official State draws, but again, what do I know. There are plenty of other ways to be "unethical" and perfectly legal; why bother doing something so blatantly illegal?

From: Grey Ghost
18-Jun-19
I've got 21 preference points for Colorado elk, and I'm further behind drawing the tag I want then I was when I started applying for it. I've applied for CO moose every year since it was legalized, and still haven't drawn. My only conclusion is I'm glad I'm not a gambler, because my luck is terrible.

I also think it would be extremely difficult to "rig" a big game drawing in Colorado, based on what I know about the system. Leftover tags, or forfeited tags, on the other hand, may be a different story.

Matt

From: ki-ke
18-Jun-19
Zach is my millennial hero

From: ki-ke
18-Jun-19
Only thing Zackman needs is a cape

From: Cazador
18-Jun-19
Talk about conspiracy and corruption! They close the Community Forum down and the homeless have no home. At least we know where NvaGvup isn't.

From: JayZ
18-Jun-19
Closing the CF just means all the angry old white males have no place to hang out. Already spilling over into the BGF's.

18-Jun-19
Grey ghost you didn't get the math right that Billion dollar figure is the last five years I believe....for sure not one year.... I was in some sort of law enforcement or law enforcement training for about 20 years.... when people say this organization or that organization wouldn't do this I agree but it is not like they are sitting around the corporate table saying lets rig it all..... it is a single person or maybe two... I can't tell you how many times I was involved in a case "we can't figure out why the till in the store is coming up short" and you find it is the 20 year employee...Aunt B type...God Mother to the store owners kids,,,,always included in Christmas and T-giving dinner....You tell the owners what you found and they are dumbfounded "its impossible... you have to be wrong" Well we got it on video and she confessed been doing it for years.... Clerks that work for some of the game and fishes and outsourced computer companies are pulling in 25-30 grand a year.... I am just saying people that say it never happens are being naive in my book....some of these tags are worth 100 grand

From: Grey Ghost
18-Jun-19
"Grey ghost you didn't get the math right that Billion dollar figure is the last five years I believe....for sure not one year..."

You are correct, sorry for my mistake. That said, weed generated over $24 million, just in the month of April this year. It's no trivial amount. Not saying that's good or bad, just reality.

Matt

18-Jun-19
Grey Ghost you are right on that one lots of dough in the mix for sure

From: midwest
18-Jun-19

midwest's embedded Photo
midwest's embedded Photo

From: wild1
18-Jun-19
To answer Ed's original question: YES, without a doubt. I don't even think it's that's difficult to do, and I don't think it requires multiple people to keep quiet. This isn't the DNC, the IRS or the UC system - it's F&G and a couple of conservation/hunting organizations. By and large, most hunters in our small fraternity, are people of high moral character, but we all know there are a few bad hombres every now and again.

Did it happen this time...? Hell if I know, but I would love to see that simple question, that Zack asked, answered in a straight forward way - sooner, rather than later. That would go long way in clearing things up a bit. The longer the question is ignored, the stronger the smell becomes, and the longer it lingers.

18-Jun-19
Somebody impuned his own character to me, by be-littling me years ago on this very site. Somebody showed me his character at the Pope and Young Club events(not just attending the Bowsite meet and greet). I know whom to stick up for so to speak. And I am pretty sure he doesn't have a desert bighorn tag this year. Is this the Community Forum?

From: ki-ke
18-Jun-19
Nick-

Damn! Spittin' image. Mr. Burns was a bit of a narcissist, if I remember correct....

From: LWood
18-Jun-19

LWood's embedded Photo
LWood's embedded Photo
“Hi Don, I’m Kyle.”

From: Mike-TN
18-Jun-19
I think there was a time when corruption was much more of an issue than today. Computers and internet have made people a lot more transparent and therefore forced more “fairness” with these type of things. Most agencies / organizations have a tremendous amount to lose if they were caught in a fraud scandal. Not saying it has not happened or does not happen but I would be a little surprised if it was happening very often.

From: trkyslr
18-Jun-19
Nick and lenny and that Zackman guy for the win! ;-)

From: BOWUNTR
18-Jun-19
Mike-TN have you ever been to California or seen it on the news? I'm pretty sure that computers have made corruption easier... Ed F

From: APauls
18-Jun-19
A reputation - to me is a lot like trust. There’s only so much you can do to build it by yourself, the rest gets decided by others.

And if I was trying to manage my reputation; the last thing I’d do is threaten to sue someone over defamation. There just aren’t many beloved people in that camp.

From: MQQSE
18-Jun-19
One of the uglier Bowsite threads. Usually see this type of bashing stuff on other sites.

From: JSW
18-Jun-19
If you want to learn about absolute corruption in Government, read the book "The Worst President in History, the Legacy of Barack Obama". It is absolutely unbelievable what went on from 2008 to 2016. That is why the Dems will not for one minute give up on Trump and the Russians and whatever else they can cook up. If they let up for one second, someone might actually look into the corruption of the Clinton/Obama crime syndicate.

How does that apply to the OP? If a President can be so corrupt and get away with it, certainly it can happen at the state level. Probably not very often and maybe not at all but it certainly could happen.

From: TEmbry
19-Jun-19
I don’t personally think state draws are rigged. There are always cases that raise eyebrows, but very hard to ever prove.

There was a question about corruption within WSF. While not full blown corruption, they certainly don’t spend their money in line with their mission statement in Alaska. In 3 years alone AK WSF donated $55,000 to APHA ( a guide organization that lobbies to keep the status quo with guide requirements and tag allocations). Has nothing to do with putting and keeping sheep on the mountain. It’s about putting and keeping sheep permits in certain people’s hands. It is what it is, I just wish they’d be more upfront with it instead of hiding from it.

From: Dave
19-Jun-19
I don't have time to read every post in this thread but anybody who doesn't believe the draws are "rigged" probably also believes Hillary is innocent and the Trump colluded with the Russians. I find it strangely ironic that those very actively involved in organizations such as WSF, etc seem to defy the odds and draw multiple sheep tags when the vast majority go a lifetime without ever drawing one.

19-Jun-19
I think it could happen, but then again your lucky stars align once in awhile too. I remember in the early 90s the president of a big sheep organization, not GSCO, drew an AZ Desert tag and the next year drew a MT bighorn tag. It’s been awhile and the sequence of years and animals could be a year or two off. I’m sure it was pure luck but to a guy just peeking in, it made me scratch my head over the years. I know luck can happen and even blessings come our way because I drew an ID (Rocky) the first year I applied. So yes, it can and will happen as long as people are involved, but luck is real too. I’m a life member of that sheep organization as well.

From: South Farm
20-Jun-19
I think there's corruption anytime and anyplace humans are involved...even the F&G. Temptation is basic human nature not to be overlooked by many.

From: Grey Ghost
20-Jun-19
It surprises me how many of you are convinced corruption exists in the F&G drawings, but don't have a single piece of evidence that supports that opinion.

I'm an innocent until proven guilty kinda of guy, and I (perhaps naively) believe that most people are basically honest.

I'm sure there are shenanigans that go on with raffles. There's always that one fifty rich guy who buys up all the tickets, then inevitably wins the raffle. I say, if they want it that badly, they can have it.

Matt

From: painless
20-Jun-19
I know an Alaskan Bear/sheep guide who drew New Mexico desert bighorn. Always wondered if anyone from the NMFG hunted with him.

From: DConcrete
20-Jun-19
I can certainly see why you’re suspicious of that, painless.

From: moosenelson
20-Jun-19
How about a link to the pertinent thread that Zachman is talking about......

From: bigeasygator
20-Jun-19

bigeasygator's Link
Matt, it’s the Deep State!

moosenelson and Ucsdryder, it’s all laid out pretty clearly at the link above.

From: HUNT MAN
20-Jun-19
This ^^^^^^

20-Jun-19
Asking out of ignorance as I never have applied for any tags. Thinking back on raffle tickets from high school, and lots of pressure to sell all of them. I would have been happy if one person would have just bought everything the school assigned me.

If the raffle tickets have a fixed price, why would the outfitter care who purchased them, unless other guys wanting to buy a chance were left out. We never sold all of our tickets, maybe I am wrong to assume all of these would not be sold? I assume everyone wanting a chance got at least one?

From: sticksender
20-Jun-19
Frank I'd say one reason to care about a raffle sponsor selling the hunt to one person before offering raffle tickets to the public, would be the negative PR. Like we saw last year right on this website with one of the Wyoming fundraiser tags. As well as, more importantly, the various ethical questions that it could raise. The question of....why not just auction the hunt, if you're going to let one person buy all the tickets prior to a public offering? No need to hold a raffle. And it could possibly bring more money at auction. Which I'd assume is the reason someone might want to subvert the raffling process in the first place. And who makes the decision on who gets to buy the hunt? They'd be leaving themselves open to the question of whether they got something under the table in exchange. I think it's the basic fundamental dishonesty and the potential for abuse/favoritism/graft, that the public might have a problem with.

20-Jun-19
Got it. Did not know it was all of the tickets.

Hopefully it was just a conversation, but based on the outcome that is understandably questionable.

From: Brotsky
20-Jun-19
I think you have to consider the ancillary benefits that go along with holding the raffle as well for the foundation and the outfitter. You pick up good PR for the foundation and may add a few new members and fringe benefits to your existing membership. I would think the raffle would be good advertising for the outfitter as well, might lead to him booking a hunt or two from the membership.

20-Jun-19
MIA?

From: Boreal
20-Jun-19
"MIA?"

I think he GavUp.

From: JayZ
20-Jun-19
A guy that was on here almost non-stop has gone MIA. Sure would be nice if he could come on here and defend himself or apologize. I suspect an ego will get in the way and not allow that to happen or maybe the guy just thinks what he tried to do was acceptable.

From: Irishman
20-Jun-19
I think some people are just lucky when it comes to draws, and others are just unlucky. I applied for 30 years for moose, sheep, and goat, and finally last year I drew a goat tag. My son drew a goat tag on the first year he applied and with zero bonus points. Another son has drawn sheep and goat tags already. A friend, who posts on this forum, has drawn moose, sheep, and goat here in Montana, all within a few years. Some people are just lucky, and some aren't.

From: Brotsky
20-Jun-19
You'd think luck would be the least of a guy's worries if he was named Paddy and had a handle like "Irishman"! Ha!

From: Matt
20-Jun-19
I think Brotsky nailed it. My sense is generally outfitters sell hunts to conservation orgs at a discount to support the cause, but they also get the ancillary benefit of advertising associated with the donation (as does the org selling the tickets). If one person was to buy all the tags early it would deprive the outfitter and the org of those ancillary marketing benefits. It would also reduce the relatively few opportunities for the common hunter to have a chance at a sheep hunt, which I imagine in combination could have snowball effect across the sheep community (outfitters being less willing to sell hunts if the associated raffles are not administered per their liking, fewer raffles for the average hunter, less average hunter participation, etc.).

There is little chance the raffle goes undersubscribed, so I don't think one could ascribe any degree of altruism toward someone buying all the tickets as though they were doing anyone else a favor.

The question for me would be why wouldn't they just book directly with the outfitter?

From: mpesto
20-Jun-19
Because then it wouldn't be a taxable donation to CAWSF.

From: greg simon
20-Jun-19
Easy question right there! $$$

From: mpesto
20-Jun-19
Sorry tax-deductible donation.

From: leo17
20-Jun-19
You guys nailed it. If someone buys all the tickets they can write it off their business. 100% deductible.

From: Owl
20-Jun-19
Not an accountant but I do not believe the cost of raffle tickets is tax deductible.

From: Trial153
20-Jun-19
Yea you can write it off as a donation.

From: Owl
20-Jun-19
To get a discounted hunt via write-off(s), the raffle hunt in question would have to be pulled out of circulation in lieu of an agreed upon straight-up charitable donation. That would impugn the hunter, the organization and the outfitter. The organization would be the biggest loser in that scenario. By far. And given that, I can't imagine that's what went down.

From: Owl
20-Jun-19
From page 6 of IRS Publication 526, 2018:

"Costs of raffles, bingo, lottery, etc. You can't deduct as a charitable contribution amounts you pay to buy raffle or lottery tickets or to play bingo or other games of chance. For information on how to report gambling winnings and losses, see Expenses You Can Deduct in Pub. 529."

From: sticksender
20-Jun-19
Charitable donation would come into play, only to the extent of the amount paid in excess of the normal cost of the hunt. So prolly not here. Say if an outfitter normally sells a Stone hunt for 45k, and say you buy 50k in raffle tickets or pay 50k at auction to get it, via a 501c3 org, then yes you might have a potential 5k deduction. Although that 5k is only useful if you have lots of other itemizable deductions....enough to exceed the 24k standard deduction most of us already get as married joint filers.

20-Jun-19
Owl, from what I read, that appears to be exactly what may have happened. Correct me if I misunderstood you but, I understand the charges implied as A guy very high up in the WSF is being charged with contacting an outfitter and offering to buy his sheep tags/tag before they had a chance to go to auction to sell in order to benefit the WSF. Maybe you are right about that not being likely? I don't know.

From: Owl
20-Jun-19
WV M, not sure my friend. I’m just expounding on the “tax deduction “ theory. Buying all the raffle tickets will not yield a discount via a write-off. So, yeah, there would have to be an alternate structure that amounts to tax fraud. Just too much to risk for a less expensive hunt.

I don’t know about any charges. But, maybe, I should read more of this thread. lol

From: Brotsky
20-Jun-19
LOL....I hope Ruth Bader Ginsburg lives long enough to hear this one

From: BOWUNTR
20-Jun-19
Rhodyboy you need to read navagvup's response before you're gettin' all legal on us and calling this a crime. It's about ethics. He admitted to writing emails to the outfitter. There's your best evidence and your source... I'd bet that those emails are circling the globe. So far there's been no defense to the accusations. The Bowsite jury is waiting... Ed F

From: bigeasygator
20-Jun-19
Bingo^^^ never once saw the insinuation of anything criminal. It’s an issue of ethics and integrity.

20-Jun-19
LMAO....Rhodyboy! Troll much...?

From: Matt
21-Jun-19
I think Zackieboy is going to be just fine.

Rhodyboy on the other hand may earn a banishment to the community forum.

From: Dirk Diggler
21-Jun-19
Guessin he figured the CF is dead, I been caught steppin on my dik, good time to leave. If he didnt pull the shenanigans he's accused of he would have denounced it by now. #sad

21-Jun-19
Kind of looking like your Kyle’s boy....LOL

From: JTV
21-Jun-19
#10) Libel and Slander - You are solely responsible for your comments and content posted on Bowsite.com, Stickbow.com, DeerBuilder.com and Bowhunting.TV.

From: Nick Muche
21-Jun-19
Zacks posts are not heresay. Rhody, your ball may dribble on the CF but over here there are many informed on all things going on. It seems you’ve lowered the hoop to about 7’ so you can dunk in front of a pile of guys used to a 10’ bucket. Good luck!

From: Brotsky
21-Jun-19
GG, Rhody seems to have all the salt you’ll ever need.

21-Jun-19
DAMN! Leave my phone at work and I missed all of the Rhody-O! Just my luck.

From: mountainman
21-Jun-19
I missed it too Embry. I am assuming these Rhody posts have been deleted?

From: Dave
21-Jun-19
Some of you guys are so unbelievably naive it amazes me. Every day I wonder how people fall for scams that, to the normal person, are so obvious a kindergartner wouldn't fall for them. I think, "how can people be that stupid?" Then, I see the level of ignorance here claiming that there's no way the draws can be rigged because they're run by the government. ARE YOU FRICKIN SERIOUS????!!!! The government is the most corrupt organization in America. The mafia is less corrupt than Washington and the states aren't far behind. I suppose you're gonna tell me that it's pure luck of the draw that women and juniors magically draw tags that defy the odds out of pure luck as well. You idiots need to wake up.

From: GhostBird
21-Jun-19
Dave, why enter "common sense" into the equation. Hahahaha.

From: Brotsky
21-Jun-19
Common sense and common courtesy are two things that aren't too common anymore that's for darn sure!

From: Rut Nut
21-Jun-19
Dang, I missed it too............................................

21-Jun-19
Lol...What happen to Rhoda?!? :-)

From: kota-man
21-Jun-19
Yes, the Rhody posts were zapped and I believe this thread will be shortly as well. :)

From: TEmbry
21-Jun-19
It cracks me up how the logic for draws being rigged is that “women and juniors” draw tags. Lol

Similar to a lot of other conspiracy theories, I think these give government officials far too much credit on keeping their mouth shut. People talk.

From: Grey Ghost
21-Jun-19
"Yes, the Rhody posts were zapped and I believe this thread will be shortly as well. :)"

That's OK, I saved screen shots of all of Rhody's posts for future reference. Let me know if any of you want to see them.

Matt

This Topic has been locked. Thank you.

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