I am sending out a personal plea to folks sending email, text, and social media posts bragging about 100+ yard archery kills. One of the main culprits posts here. It's hard to argue against a shorter proposed archery season when a wildlife commissioner forwards a post with this on it.
It is embarassing to be confronted with this and it was suggested to police your own ranks. Not to mention a lack of hunting/woodsmanship skills if this long of a bowshot is taken.
If it continues I will post a name on public forums.
Please use some common sense on your posts and your shots.
Bowhunting isn’t accepted by antis. They target bowhunting more than anything. It’s a lot easier to paint us as barbaric and with a much more antiquated and much more painful way to die than by a rifle.
But, it is in your best interest to stop posting 100 yard plus stuff.
Social media, the best gift ever given to the antis.
There are going to be extremes no matter what you are talking about. For every guy that shoots 100, there are 99 that don’t. If your commissioner contact is going to pick the one extreme to make his case he has an ulterior motive.
There are only a small handful of TV types that IMO are proficient at long shots whom I'd say can do it. Tim Wells is one. I've seen Lee Lakoski practice proficiently out to long distances. I think it's more about shot selection for the most part. Yesterday on the tube I watched whatshisface of the Tecemonte Seed Company take a Montana heart shot with a ML on a dandy deer that he should have never taken. I believe he didn't recover the deer either.
It's not about how proficient a shot you are. It's about reaction times. I don't care if you can consistently stack arrows at 100 yards, it doesn't matter if the target isn't standing there by the time the arrow arrives.
I used to excel at competitive 3D archery, and I'm confident of my ability to hit any fixed target out to 100 yards. I have killed elk and deer beyond 65, too. That said, my attitude changed a few years ago when I took a 40 yard broadside shot at a bull that was staring at me. By the time my arrow reached the bull, he had spun 90 degrees. The arrow hit just below his tail (aka: Texas heart shot). The shot turned out to be extremely lethal, and it left the easiest blood trail I've ever followed, but it was all luck. It could have easily resulted in a miss, or worse, a wounded unrecovered animal. Since then, I've become much more selective about the shots I will take. The agony of wounding an animal far outweighs the thrill of killing one at long range, for me.
This isn’t an ethics problem it’s a technology problem.
It’s not the low percentage of people who are actually able to take 100 yard shots who are resulting in the change of season dates and tag availability. it’s the vast majority of people who are deadly out to 60 and 70.
This and the growth in the number of western bow hunters largely due to said technology
Topics like this kind of make me laugh. I shoot a recurve and 30 yards is my max. Not to toot my own horn but I’m in the top 10% of tradbow shooters kind of like many of you are among compound shooters. Most of you who are proficient with a compound can out shoot my 30 yards with your 60 yard group at known yardage. I know all of you are carrying a rangefinder so Its not like you can’t be as accurate in the field.
"There are going to be extremes no matter what you are talking about. For every guy that shoots 100, there are 99 that don’t. If your commissioner contact is going to pick the one extreme to make his case he has an ulterior motive."
THIS^^^^^ If that same person is not also harping on rifle shots over 400yds then they definitely have a hidden agenda...
So Michael, if you’re in the top 10% of traditional shooters, what about the other 90%?
This post has nothing to do with shot distances taken during the archery season, it’s about a personal vendetta from one who sits on our Colorado Wildlife Commission flexing his distane against bowhunters.
I've been involved in archery since I was 7, I'm not 55.. I seen a lot of change in that time. My very first compound site was set a 15,20,25 and 30. I see a very small number of western guys today setting first pin of 7 at 30yds. I do agree 100% that any shot over 60 is just ridiculous. Some bowhunters have become our (bowhunters) worst enemy.. Some with videos and some in print and some with words. Now tell me why a guy that shoots game 100+ yds has to make sure the word knows about it?? I always do my best to try and make my beloved hobby, sport and past time look good in the eye of everyone I meet. There are many non-hunters as well as some gun hunters that would love to see bowhunting seasons shortened or out right closed.
For those that are on here that shoot at game at 100+ yds why is it that so many have to tell the world ??? Why can't you just keep ur words at, I shot this 8 point last week and keep out the and it was at 125 yds?? Ed R
The close range trad ethic is a relatively new concept in bowhunting. But those famous long range shooters were before social media amplified everything.
In a previous CDOW season structure public meeting the CDOW moderator told all the bowhunters who were testifying, "You guys don't need longer seasons. I see your pictures and the shot distances. You guys are killing animals beyond 100 yards. So don't tell us you are using 'primitive weapons' and deserve more time to hunt".
It's really just simple math. The speed of sound is roughly 4 times faster than the typical arrow from a compound bow. A 100 yard shot at 300 fps takes a full second to reach the animal. That leaves 3/4 of a second for an animal to react to the sound before the arrow reaches him. I think we all know how far most big game animals can move in 3/4 of a second.
If the animal is looking at you, it's even worse, because he can react to the sight of your shot almost instantaneously. I've seen deer launch from bedded positions at the sound and/or sight of 50 yard shots, causing them to miss by yards.
Let's face it, the reason most of us hunt with bows is because it requires a higher level of skill to get close enough for a shot, and the reward is greater when you are successful. I've always said a typical bow hunt starts when the typical rifle hunt ends. If you like taking 100 yards shots, hunt with your bang stick.
There are men that will have sex with the hottest women you could imagine tonight. It doesn't mean we are all doing that. But, it will be those guys that get all the attention. Same with this topic. If any of you or, any game commission is dumb enough to believe that these example are the norm or, what should be used as a standard, it is due to ulterior motives. Quite bitching and moaning about technology. It isn't the problem. Wildlife management models are changing. And, it requires justification for doing so. You are just helping the cause with the personal vendetta's.
"In a previous CDOW season structure public meeting the CDOW moderator told all the bowhunters who were testifying, "You guys don't need longer seasons. I see your pictures and the shot distances. You guys are killing animals beyond 100 yards. So don't tell us you are using 'primitive weapons' and deserve more time to hunt."
Trophy, I think the embarrassment of admitting that one took a Hail Mary 100 yard shot and wounded a deer is not wanted by most. It is shooting a Hail Mary 100 yard shot and nailing it that drives people. It is a shame the hunter in them can not get them closer.
What Jake just said. , like I said above, how about we just don't boast or Bragg we're taking hundred yard shots. To be honest I'm more impressed with guys that can consistently stalk within an ethical distance.
I'm pretty sure we all here can take 100+ yd shots. But how many can take 30yd shots. Ed R
the reason there are not threads on 100 yd boo boo's is that the 'shooter' would be excoriated, and he'd be ripped to shreds.. if the same clownboy collects the animal, he can then pound his chest.."Look what I done" ... I'm a pretty damn good shot out to 70 yds, but no way would I ever try that on a live animal...never !! .. my targets dont move
Well don't you think the lost deer threads at "ethical" distances fuel the anti fire? Should people just stop posting altogether to appease the antis? There are enough posted pics of dead animals out there already to fuel the anti fire. To pick on the long range guys is just slightly hypocritical.....
Interesting to me how many guys are able to so accurately judge what is ethical for another hunter and what is not. Everyone hunts for their own reasons. I understand the frustration with guys bragging on 100 yard shots, but to paint everyone who shoots past 40 as basically unethical or not a true bow hunter is a stretch. As already stated Bear, Hill, Pope and Young would be deemed unethical by today's standards. As far as the animal moving due to the sound.... from much observation and experience I think the is a much greater chance of an animal reacting to the sound at 30-45 than 50 plus. Minus 45 the sound seems to be within their comfort zone and they react much more. Over 50 they often stay locked in till the arrow hits them. I believe this to be because the sound is fainter and they are still trying to pin point the noise or cause of the noise. Up close shots often seem to result in fatal non-recoveries where as longer shots usually seem to result in clean misses. To each their own. You can tell there's no more CF and it's July on the Bowsite......
The animal doesn`t have to "react" at 100 yrds…..that is the entire point of the thread. They can completely swap ends in the time it takes the arrow to get there WITHOUT re-acting. God forbid the DO react.
I think what Jaquomo posted regarding what the CDOW moderator said really emphasizes what some people will use against us including their perception that we apparently routinely shoot animals at 100 or more yards. As has been cited in past threads, I think that we should be aware of what those neutral to hunting think about us for ovious reasons such as that they are voters. I hope that bowhunters listen to what STIX is saying and act accordingly.
The whole issue of this thread was because guys are sending videos of them shooting game at 100 yards with their bows to the CPW. Guess they wanna brag about it to make themselves look like a great hunter. However, it's hurting us because CPW now think bowhunting isn't a short range sport now and we don't need roughly 30 days to bowhunt. It has nothing to do with what's ethical and what's not, or if trad shooter shoot past 30 yards or considers themselves in the top 10% of traditional shooters. It's about boasting to the wrong people and the consequences that's coming from it.
Think about this... Wouldn't it suck if CPW cut the bow season down to two seven day seasons, because they feel that since we can kill game at 100 yards, we don't need 30 days to succeed. CPW has things again us as it is, without adding fuel to the fire. I was there in NM when they split the archery seasons and cut the January bowhunt down.
Imagine if Fred Bear had email, text, and social media. Heck....imagine some of the Hail Mary shots he would’ve captured had he been using a GoPro! While we’re taking down bowhunters who shoot beyond a specified distance, let’s not forget to call out the bow manufacturers who advertise 100 yard groups and slogans like “Meet your next rifle.”. Even worse, are the magazines and social media sites which promotes them. The offender the OP should be outing here, probably based his false opinions of modern day bowhunters, just by flipping through one of the latest bowhunting magazine publications.
If guys are sending that kind of thing to the CPW that seems pretty ill-advised. Why would they send it to the CPW? Like, what is their purpose in that? Or is it CPW members have seen the vids and formed an opinion on that?
badbull, it isn't perception, it's reality. Hell, it wasn't much more than a year ago that a thread was started about Levi Morgan taking a 103yd shot at an elk on his tv show. By the responses to that thread, you'd have thought he found a cure for cancer. Add to that the crap posted on youtube, no wonder we've drawn interest from game managers concerning our "primitive" weapons. You can argue all day long why we shouldn't question the ranges some people take shots, but there's one fact you cannot dispute. The longer the arrow is in the air, the more time for something to go wrong. The longer the distance, the longer the time. Some things we can control, some things we can't...such as animal movement. I don't care if you're Levi Morgan or Levi Strauss.
Wyoming has had about as liberal of archery restrictions as anywhere in the country. Crossbows have been allowed during the special archery season since it's inception. Several years ago they even allowed mechanical cocking devices to be used, disabled or not. Just this past winter, Wyoming Game & Fish recommended to the commission to eliminate crossbows from archery season. One of the main reasons they gave was that crossbows were capable of making 100yd shots (hello Raven, hello Levi Morgan and youtube...crossbows today, compounds tomorrow). The commission didn't approve the recommendation, but stated more analysis would be conducted.
If you think the people who determine season length/restrictions aren't starting to pay attention, you are sadly mistaken.
Deerslayer, the video is a perfect example of the issue I have with attempting those long shots. Deer takes a step, or arrow drifts with a breeze..end result is a gut shot deer. In that video, the arrow appears to hit behind the ribs..maybe got the liver on the way out?
Killed my first deer with a Hoyt Rambo, including pin sights, etc. 50yd. shot downhill, with the first arrow dropping right between his legs. Second arrow took him right through the heart. I got lucky.
Since then (about 1984) I've shot traditional longbows/recurves and cedar shafts. For me, hunting just isn't about being a good shot..it's about the skills needed to stalk that animal, and take it at less than 30 yds.
I know of a couple guys that shoot 100 yds. regularly, at the range. It's a shot they've taken dozens of times in the past, so they're pretty dialed in on it. That's on the range, but conditions in the field are completely different, and it don't take much to royally screw up.
It would be rather easy for someone to test themselves at that distance. Just grab a few 8" paper plates, get out in the woods and hang them at random distances out to 100 yds. Get 4 out of 5 arrows on the plate at x distance and you've found your max distance, (typically 40-50 yds.?). Do it on the 100 yd. plate and you should join the Olympic Archery team.
"It's not about how proficient a shot you are. It's about reaction times. I don't care if you can consistently stack arrows at 100 yards, it doesn't matter if the target isn't standing there by the time the arrow arrives."
Its not that the animal heard the shot and consciously moves; its the fact the arrow takes so long to get there they can move, whether consciously or not affecting the outcome of the shot-period. Duh!!
Archery is shooting as far as you can without missing. Bowhunting is getting so close you can't miss.
Going to listen to the guy who coined that phrase (I think ) next week in WI
Still waiting for that hard number of shoot/no shoot. Only a couple have suggested 1 but most eager to say no to 100. What's the number that should be max? Without it, how can anyone say what's too far?
The only reason I would take a 50 yd shot would be because I'd have admitted to myself that I wasn't a good enough hunter to get to 35 yds. So if I was to take a 100yd shot, that would be conceding to myself that I really sucked as a bow hunter.
I would guess that most people who shoot a compound bow practice long shots. I know that I do a lot. We all know that there are lots of issues/things that can go wrong in taking long range shots, and that our chances of killing an animal are always better the closer we can get. So, to me, the last thing anyone should do is brag about making a long range shot, because you are really just saying - that is as close as my hunting skills would allow me to get.
I have always had pins for long shots. Never could hold a 40 yard pin right to hit anything at 60 plus. So, I put pins on for that. I’ve never launched at an animal that wasn’t hurt at an extreme range. But, I have on several that were. And, instead of missing or hopelessly flailing, I’ve hit and finished them off. HMMMMM. That don’t fit the “woodsmen” crap some of you boys been spewing. But, it’s your story. You tell it how you want.
Quote: " I wasn't a good enough hunter to get to 35 yds ............... that would be conceding to myself that I really sucked as a bow hunter."
Maybe that's conceding that you just suck as an archer and you should practice more to be a more ethical hunter.
I'm sorry, but this beating the drum of "I must be a better Woodsman" with emphasis on the "Man" part is just self congratulatory back patting. It's no different the any of the other "I can't have it or do it, so I don't want others to have or do it either. Then disguise it as ethics and say you have more.
Do hunters take shots beyond their skill level? Absolutely, trad guys at 25 and compounders at 80. Crossbow, muzzleloader, shotgun and rifle too. How many of you self proclaimed superior Woodsmen have wounded an animal at 35 yards after using your superior skills to get that close? Why is that ok? Why is that called "..just part of bowhunting"? Well as long as you were using a fixed blade head anyway.
I agree that social media has made many people perform for the audience. No different than the kid on the school ground swinging higher and more recklessly than anyone else. Yes, that is human nature, just most have been raised to think it's not acceptable. But this "my morals or ethics are better than yours" is really only another form of bragging for quite a few. And an excuse for not cutting as many tags as someone else.
Choose your tool, accept it's and your limitations, go hunting and enjoy. Let others do the same.
Ziek do you think people shooting 100 yards would all of a sudden limit their shooting to 30 if you took away range finders? The difference between 23 yards and 28 yards is a wounded animal. I don’t think range finders are the issue.
only if you have a slow bow ^^ ... with a 25 yd setting with my HHA, I'm good from 5 to 33 yds/top of a deers lungs to the lower portion/heart area ... no adjustments, one reason I'm so deadly on deer thru the years .. the faster the bow is, the longer my "kill zone" is with out adjusting ... this has been discussed on here ad nauseum for years ....
Would there still be auto racing if all the cars were self driving? What would be the point? Bowhunting IS all about the "Man" part. And part of setting up a shot is first judging the distance. Otherwise is like a woodworker setting up his computer controlled lathe and turning it on. Then bragging about what a great wood turner he is. That's great if ALL you want is four turned legs exactly the same, as efficiently as possible. Is that what you think bowhunting is? If so, I feel sorry for you, and for the future of bowhunting. But the younger guys with all their gadgets, will ultimately determine what bowhunting is, as it slides into a distant memory/anachronism, because, hey, if there's no personal skill involved, what's the point?
Bake, practicing at longer distances, makes one more deadly at the closer distances ...like I said above, targets dont move ... btw, I was killing deer long before the first laser range finder first came out and learned to judge distances without one ... I want to get Close, I want to set my stand up so my shots are close and I know my limitations ... More deer are still killed at 20 yds and less than over that distance ... I would also say more Elk are killed well under 40 yds than over ..
Funny story, years back I was hunting with an outfitter friend of mine. I had drawn a good antelope tag and was hunting a great ranch with some really good bucks. One day, it was really windy and had been sneaking around with a decoy and decided to knock off a bit early, as I had been at it all week. Go back to camp and there was a fella who had just pulled in, his hunt started the next day. He was from some bow company and had a camera guy in tow. As the sun was going down, the Wyoming wind let up and he goes out to shoot and was upset as the practice range ONLY went to 75 yards and he was one heck of a shot. He also gave me a very bad time, as I was really into longbows at the time and that's what I hunted with. I might add that I wasn't one of THOSE trad guys as all of my friends shot compounds and so did I sometimes. Anyhow, the next morning I shoot my goat and get it taken care of and was running around with the guides, helping out as I knew them all and the bow company guy calls in asking if Craig had anybody that could run him some more arrows out to the blind as he had already missed 8 shots and was out of ammo. I volunteered to go, but nobody was allowed to go. Moral of the story, archery is and really should be a close range sport. How close is close? You must decide that for yourself, as you have to live with yourself. I do wish that these people who post videos and make a living off of this sport would remember that they represent us all.
Ambush, was that quote supposed to be what I wrote? If it was, you got the "quote" wrong, which makes it not a quote. Anyhow, assuming it was referencing what I had said, what makes you think that I can't make 80+ yard shots? I shoot good 80+ yard shots at a stationary target in my back yard every time I practice. I'm just saying that I wouldn't do that if I thought I could get closer, as that would be stupid. I'm not sure that it has to do with ethics, or if I just don't want to spend a day looking for an animal that I wounded. The fact is that you are more likely to kill at a closer range for all sorts of reasons, so why take a long shot, unless you feel it's your only chance.
If I cant get any closer to an animal or get him closer to me, that animal wins .... its that simple ... I dont 'have' to shoot, and as some have said know your limitations ...it IS ok to pass, if you understand that and come to grips with it, you will wound a whole lot less animals...
Man, I wish I could take a 100 yard shot. Even w/ a rifle. The land I hunt is so thick and hilly that I'm lucky if I can poke out to 30. Fortunately, the deer tend to find their way in under that, so I'll gladly take the shorter shot :) If they happen to show beyond that range, I'll be lucky to see em. Which basically tells me I'm in the wrong spot and need to move...
Irishman, here's your entire quote if it changes anything.
"The only reason I would take a 50 yd shot would be because I'd have admitted to myself that I wasn't a good enough hunter to get to 35 yds. So if I was to take a 100yd shot, that would be conceding to myself that I really sucked as a bow hunter."
I interpret that to say; ...only good hunters (real woodsman) can get close and only bad hunters (poor woodsman) take long shots. Am I wrong?
Yep, you're wrong. I said that I would suck if I resorted to taking a 100 yd shot, that is way too long to be shooting. If I were to take a 65 yd shot, which I wouldn't rule out doing, that would be me saying that on that particular day I wasn't a good enough hunter to get to within 40 yds where I know I'm much more likely to kill. I first shot a bow in my late 20's, which was in 1987. Back then it took skill and a lot of practice to be able to shoot well with even a compound bow, never mind a traditional bow. And it would be fair to say that I sucked as a shot (Bigdan can testify to this). Nowadays, I have people who have never shot a bow before, pick up my bow and shoot bulls eyes on targets within a few minutes of practicing, some with their first shot. The equipment is so much better that with a little practice that anyone can make long shots. So making a long shot is nothing to brag about, just about anyone can do it. Still, you wouldn't do it unless you had to, as there are many things that can go wrong when you take a shot, and the further you are away, the more chance you will have a bad outcome. The guys that are successful with traditional equipment, I admire, they are real hunters. The guys like Bigdan who killed so many elk back in the 70's and 80's, I admire, as it was so much tougher then (I didn't kill squat back then). Do I admire someone just because they are successful taking a long shot? Not at all, there is a lot of luck involved. Anyone can take a long shot, most people are good at them, with today's equipment. I just see that I drew a deer B license, an elk B license, and an antelope license. The antelope may require a long shot - HA!
No more steam out of me, because it's Monday afternoon, and I have stuff to do for the rest of the week, like getting the camper ready and deciding where I am scouting for elk this week. That is the damned tough thing about being old and retired, figuring out where I am scouting for elk each week. :)
I wouldn't necessarily chalk it up to not being a good enough hunter that day. Sometimes things are beyond a guy's control. Antelope are the perfect case study for this. Where I live the terrain just doesn't lend itself to getting inside of 40. I put on dozens of stalks each year, and I know my country fairly well, but sometimes you just run out of room. Kind of like the elk herd that beds in an open meadow 65 yards from the timber. You just can't physically get any closer. Wind plays a huge part of that as well. Often you've done really well as a woodsman to get to 65 in those conditions!
Regardless of specific topic, social media will kill hunting. Let's face it, there are aspects of our hobby that will never set well with a significant portion of the country. It's long shots now....eventually it will be shots in general. Our kids might bowhunt their whole lifetime, but it is doubtful that our grandchildren will.
X’s 2 Brotsky! After we determine what shot distance is an acceptable standard to appease the non-hunters, I would like to hash out the ethical and moral grounds for frontal shots. Pass the Dots trail mix please....
Usually its late winter when everyone's full of piss and vinegar on here. Not in the middle of summer right before season when you should be making sure your jet boil is working and you cleaned your spork last Fall. Go out and shoot. Most of us old timers don't get that worked up over Dot's and honey holes. We've seen enough and been involved in enuff conflict that we just wanna crawl around in the mountains and hunt. Guess that's one advantage of retirement. But, yah, no doubt, there certainly are issues out there. Next generation has to solve them. Don't listen to us old scouts much anyway. And that may be for the better. I turned an old rock over once( most rocks are old) and on the back was written," leave me alone" .
What sort of restrictions would help with this? The old timers took those kind of shots. Howard killed a bull at 165 yards with a longbow. Outlaw compounds and you can still put a 100 yard pin on a recurve. Outlaw pins and recurve shooters can string walk and use marks on the riser.
The average person on the street doesn't give a hoot about how far animals are shot with a bow. This is about perception from a few, who unfortunately are in policy-making positions.
i live right below a taxidermist in new mexico. every year bowhunters come in to his shop and tell about the one they shot but got away. long shots for sure. shooting at a live animal is totally different. one step even at 50 yds its in the gut. maybe the average person doesn't care but we should. we were given our season because the bow was a primitive weapon not any more I guess????
Long distance accuracy with bow or rifle is a challenge and mastering that challenge can be fun. And since the primary reason most hunt is for fun (ultimately), let us ask ourselves how we might maximise our fun. For myself, it is more fun to hunt close rather than the fun I would get from long distance shooting.
I've also noticed the fun factor (or thrill factor) goes way up once you get really close to big game such as around 20 yds and even closer. Therefore, I've developed my hunting methods and weapons for that range.
The average hunter or even the better hunters, think's that is way too limiting. I disagree. Every big game has their weakness and with the right knowledge and skills one can be extremely effective on big game such as elk, whitetail deer, mule deer, and probably most big game species.
Your success rates can not only be far higher than the average hunter, but even higher than the better hunters. Guys like Jaquomo (Lou) and others are on the cutting edge of decoying and other advanced tactics that can bring deer in close. I specialise in calling deer and every season have bucks under 15 yds. My average shot distance even on desert mule deer is under 25 yds. Blinds, tree stands, waterholes, are all other avenues for close shooting. Similarly for elk, moose, etc. etc.
My suggestion is to really think about what is most fun/thrilling and then get to work on how to achieve it. Not by hoping and relying on "luck", but through skills and creativity. For me, the hunt is all about control vs. luck or the necessity to take long shots. I traded long distance success fun for short distance success fun, because I found the latter to be far more thrilling.
IMO the difference is between the thrill of the hunt vs the thrill of the kill. For me, as the animal approaches my effective range the adrenaline starts to elevate until it reaches the peak when I know he's in my range and I draw the bow. It's a great feeling to take a mature animal...to out smart him. However, wounding an animal is a much greater low than the high of taking them. It has led to may sleepless nights and anguish even decades later. I would rather pass on long low percentage shot for fear of the low. I get no thrill from the kill.
It's not the animal I'm after...it's the hunt. There can be successful hunts without punching a tag. I had a nice ten point white-tail (guessing +150) a couple years ago just out of range multiple times. The same morning I seen some river otters from my stand foraging in an oxbow. I've never seen river otters in KS before and I spend a lot of time in the woods. One of the most memorable hunts I've ever had and I ate a tag sandwich that year.
I'm taking my adopted son on his first elk hunt this year. It's already one of the most memorable hunts and we haven't even stepped foot in the woods yet. The time we have shared e-scouting, physical and mental preparation, backpack trips to get in shape, meal planning, hunt strategy planning, bugling/calling practice (which the wife is really sick of lol), gear prep, etc. It darn sure isn't just about killing an elk but we are sure going to try.
Leave the long range low percentage trick shots on the range IMO. Respect and consider the animal you are hunting. Wildlife has more value than just whether you can hunt them or not. There is also great value in observation and emersion in the wild. After all...hunters were the first conservationist. We would all be better to remember that.
Most humans incl. most hunters are selfish and will do what's most fun. I agree the risk of wounding animals amounts to negative fun and anyone with brains would want to minimise that. Yet, even if that wasn't a risk, most hunters don't seem to think too much about what it that is more fun for them - in this case, hunting close or long distance hunting. I say give it some thought, you might make a change that will give you more fun and satisfaction.
Not enough "bowhunters" today think about fairness and the welfare of the quarry. Too much can happen before the arrow gets there, things go bad and then you're a dumb @ss.. That's how to loose your permission to hunt.
Lou is correct. Traditional folks at one time shot just as far if not farther than compound guys do today. I still have no problem taking a shot with my recurve at 45-50 yards if I feel the shot feels right. I have killed more deer at those ranges with my recurve than I have with a compound. It is not many but it is a fact. Ask some of these guys who have several sheep slams, ask how many sheep they have killed at over 80 yards. It will surprise some folks. Its not up to me too judge folks on the shots they take, they have to live with their actions, some don't care what they are. Others it may weigh heavily upon. The only thing I despise is when I hear some hunter say"well I would not of shot but it was the biggest(insert animal here) that I ever had a chance at and was not gonna let it walk with out shooting!!" Size does not matter, killing an animal cleanly does!! Shawn
Posts like this are the reason I don’t get on here much anymore. Everyone’s ability is different and for people to throw out a blanket statement to cover everyone puts them in the same category as the rest of the liberals. Enjoy your hunting, support our passion and don’t let anyone influence the decisions you make, own them! Most people posting on here hunt Whitetails in the Eastern US, the same set of standards used for decision making don’t apply to me sheep hunting out west!
I'd be curious how many he misses or doesn't recover....if any. Has anyone seen any of his vids where he doesn't recover or misses? It's possible but me thinks he is that good where he doesn't take long shots unless knows he can make it. That muley shot was right on....I don't think that was luck. Same for his shot in the earlier vid. It ain't bragging if you can back it up.
Gotta love how a dude starts a post asking folks not to post this crap.......and I skimmed through and see several videos of this crap posted. Nice. Real nice. I am about as interested in folks doing this as I am interested in dumb ass policy makers using the arseholic few to smear the many who do hunt ethically and with real respect for the animals we hunt. Bunch of BS.
I think 100 yard shots are crap...especially since my sight housing and fletching makes make contact after 90 ;). I still haven’t fired an arrow at an animal past 40 but who am I say that a given distance is where ethics end. Give me the end of ethical distance for everyone on this site please. I bet you get a lot of different numbers. I’ve had animals duck the string or spin at the shot at under 30 yards. I guess we should police ourselves and not shoot at those distances? There are idiots in every aspect of life, just quit feeding there ego and talking about them. Like others have said if your commissioner friend doesn’t realize that guys shooting bows 120 yards and some gun hunters shooting 1200 is a relatively small and idiotic portion of hunters he has underlying motives.
"Ask some of these guys who have several sheep slams, ask how many sheep they have killed at over 80 yards." I specialize in mule deer, but I think sheep or any other game animal in N.America if not most of the world can be hunted very close. This is not something you just decide to do the day before your hunt, however. Arguably, it's not so much a skill thing as a creative thinking type of thing.
Honest question... would you prefer a guy that messes up multiple shots under 40 yards or someone that gets it done over 70? I remember reading a story that included multiple misses/near hits/wounded animals. In the end shooting 100 yards isn’t the best idea, but I think it’s a big can of worms.
I have met people elk hunting that practically brag about their 100 yard gut shots. Then they claim to be from the state bow hunting organization. It boggles my mind when I meet them. One year we had a guy drive up on an ATV in a place where you aren't allowed to have an ATV, get off and take a shot a my hunting partners cow decoy....from about a 100 yards away. He's lucky he missed is all I can tell you my buddy was pissed.....
"One year we had a guy drive up on an ATV in a place where you aren't allowed to have an ATV, get off and take a shot a my hunting partners cow decoy....from about a 100 yards away. He's lucky he missed is all I can tell you my buddy was pissed....."
"Who among you here are willing to argue against that?"
I would be willing to argue with the fact that he's not proud of it. I'd bet he is. People feign humility all the time. No one makes a claim about their abilities with zero pride in what they're capable of, especially on TV.
I won't argue the righteousness of his shot selection, but I'd also bet that he's not proud of all his misses and unrecovered woundings, same with all of us. Just because he says any of that, doesn't make any of it true, other than the fact that he kills a lot of animals - there's evidence for that. And there's reasons other than trying to keep ARAs happy, which I agree is probably impossible and possibly pointless, for choosing not to take a shot.
I believe another thing we as bowhunters must STOP, is smiling in "harvest" photos. (Notice I didn't say "Kill"). The soccer moms and metro dads could easily be offended by us Neanderthals showing any amount of joy or elation over the death of any animal. A better alternative would be to carry a bottle of Visine, insert a few drops to each eye, and look away from the animal in such sorrow...as to show that we have such remorse for taking such a beautiful life. Instead of asking "What's he SCORE?!?", perhaps we should ask "Where would he be today?" I think we need to all get ahead of this issue now, in addition to mandating what distance shots are acceptable, whether or not a good blood trail is a good thing, and if it's okay to relegate the species of any animal to a number. I don't know about you folks, but it sure is hard being a bowhunter these days! Before I loose my next arrow, I'm going to ask myself...what would the other 85% have me do?
Or maybe a Wildlife Commissioner who establishes bowhunting policy, as in the OP's first post? ;-)
Then again, they all have cable and can watch the heroes of our sport "perform" whenever they want.
Edit: PAbowhunter, in our lifetimes we will see bowhunting on the ballot in referendum states. The ARAs will use our own videos and social media crap in the nonstop TV ads. If you think this is a big joke, you havent lived through a campaign like we did in CO, where we lost bowhunting by a 69-31% voter margin.
I thought it didn’t matter what the ARA’s thought? Now you say they will flood the airwaves with our own material, and influence the other 85% who do matter. So in the end, if we are going to lose this war anyway, why do so many bow hunters insist we police our own ranks? To your point, how do we sway the 85% to our side?
Jaq, please do not take this personal because I have been preaching the same rhetoric for years.
“Doesn't matter what the ARAs think. It only matters what the other 85% of voting age adults (especially policy-makers in state government) who are non-bowhunters think.”
Educating, informing, and not offending the 85% is continuing to perpetuate the problem. Every time I hear this sage advice I cringe because it is the exact same message that we have been singing for years. It is a passive approach which at best defensive and misguided. I totally disagree with professing the taking of 100 yard shots but in the end the network doesn’t censure and it goes on air along with the hyperbole and other questionable practices. To sit on a mountain and proclaim all that is unethical is actually doing nothing to fix the problem.
The problem that I see is that society is moving away from a lifestyle that is dying on the vine. We should be pushing the benefits of organic meat, sidling with the off the grid movement, shooting sports and so forth. Small segments of American society has always banded together for a greater voice. The movie A River Runs Through It had a significant impact on fly fishing when it came out.
Whoever thinks the “made for TV hunts” honestly portray the hunts as they actually happened is sadly mistaken. I’ve guided such hunts. The edited for TV version rarely tells the whole story.
I’m willing to bet for every 100 yard kill shot that is shown there are dozens of misses and wounds that never get aired.
When I guided, I always counted the number of arrows my clients left with versus how many they came home with. Sadly, I had a few hunters come home with fewer arrows, yet they claimed they took no shots. That usually earned them a sit in a dead spot for their next hunt.
We could sway the other 85% by each one of us, individually, positively influencing every nonhunter we know. If yiu know 30 people, that's potentially 30 votes for our side. We can share game meat with them, explain how bowhunting is a close range, intimate pursuit, not like the crap they may see in the TV ads.
To Rocky's point, we can help mentor those who may want to be organic locavores. I am personally mentoring three different 30-something guys and one woman, who grew up in nonhunting families but decided they wanted to kill and eat their own organic wild game.
We have already lost the media battle. They will be no help when the campaigns start (as promised to me by Mike Markarian, EVP of HSUS). What we do in the privacy of the woods is one thing. But deifying TV stars who show the wrong side of our sport on the airwaves is quite another thing. Even if they sometimes CAN make the shot, (thank God for editing...) it doesn't help our cause with the nonhunting public and with key decision makers.
I think Rocky D nailed it. Push the organic meat, off grid, back to your roots lifestyle. I also think the only way to increase or sustain hunter numbers is joining forces with the young hippy off grid movement. They are far from perfect but we need the numbers. Also, its easy to say you can't win the battle but if we don't have conservative hunting lobbyists fighting the legislative fight in DC & across the country every day, we're destined to lose because those hard headed lefties fight hard and in large numbers.
I agree 100% with the pushing the organic meat, off the grid, and back to your roots lifestyle. That is the common ground we can strike with any non hunter. I've had more conversations than I can count, where I've educated and awed non-hunters with the details of how I take a deer from field to table. They respect the fact that I know where my steaks come from, and that the deer in the pictures I show them never spent a moment in captivity. What they don't care about, is whether the broadhead I killed it with had moving parts or not. They don't know (or care to know) that the bone on top it's head measured less than 100". The last thing they could give a rats ass about, is whether I put a sharp stick through its lungs from 10 yards away, or 100. These are the things we like to criticize (or police) each other with in our own ranks. We should also caution ourselves on accepting the young hippy off the grid folks with open arms. While they may side with us on consuming wild game meat, I feel their views on wolf introduction, trapping, and predator hunting may be completely polar opposite of ours.
IMO, emphasizing the natural side of hunting (gun or bow) is not a bad route. Uncle Ted over the decades has always stated it was smart to be honest about what hunters do. Basically the hunter is going to pursue an animal, kill it and eat the nutritious, natural meat. The natural life has been around for a long time. Back in the 60's - early 70's the culture was changing away from drugs, protests and war with many folks looking for a natural life away from it all. Living off the land and growing your own was en vogue. Some of the tools may have changed but the premise is the same.
The bottom line is that we must seek common ground. Ever since the Seneca convention where Fredrick Douglas the lone black attendee rebutted the removal of women’s right to vote. The small segments of society have sought out like groups to become a larger political voice. This is personified by the LBGT community where each group has not lost their individual identity. As previously stated we are promoting to continue doing that which got us here. We must do that and more.
Ok, to get this thread back on track. I’ve seen Lee Lakosky shoot around 90 yards on sheep, Eli Morgan a little over a hundred, and someone else around 90. So what is acceptable? When you go on a mule deer hunt do you hold it to 50 or 60? Let’s just say that I do not. Even though I am far from a hundred. We recently had a thread where I think three deer were lost. Experienced hunters, good shots, and plenty of help to track. I understand all about promoting the shot but unfortunately their in it to win it. What would be the number in a sheep guides mind on your effective shooting range? I’ll bet that they are hoping for at least 60 to 70. I would not condemn those of the same offense that I would do myself. Remember I am no where near 100! Do I think that Levi Morgan can shoot an animal 20 or even 30 yards farther than me? You bet! Frankly, I’ve had far more deer duck at 30 than I have at 50. So what is the approved of distance? Remember our founders would sling them from afar with bows that we normally talk in the range of 20 to 30 yards. I am not advocating for people to shoot at maximum distances but I am seeking some truth in lending.
I don’t think it’s all about your accuracy at long distances. It’s more about the time it takes an arrow to travel a distance (e.g. 100 yards) and and a shooting situation to change (e.g. animal to move). I don’t think there is a hard number for all shooters. The shooting conditions (wind, light, animal awareness/distractions, topography, [insert unnamed variable here], etc.). These all play a part of making a subjective evaluation of your effective range which can change for every shooting situation. Understanding if you have mitigated risk enough to give you the confidence of one shot...one quick and humane kill. At least it’s that way for me. I know that the shooting variables will never be mitigated enough for me to take a 100 yard shoot no matter what. I would rather walk away saying “that was a cool encounter” instead of “damn, that wasn’t good.” Or worse yet saying “did I hit him.” I got too much respect for the animal.
Taking it back to the original premise of this thread: We all acknowledge that there are very visible bowhunting personalities who can, and do make very long shots. We know there are many others who also can, and do, and post it on social media.
We have a Wildlife Commissioner responsible for setting seasons, and establishing bowhunting regulations, who has the perception that bowhunting has become a long range game. He is not the only one with that perception.
The OP is not suggesting that everybody limit their range to what somebody else considers "ethical". Rather, he is asking that we think a bit about how we portray ourselves to the non-bowhunting public, per the suggestion from this Commissioner. Perception becomes reality in people's minds, which can come back to bite us in the azz.
We lost spring bear hunting here because of the perception that cubs were being orphaned (only by a few) and that baiting and hounds were unsporting. Our own videos created these perceptions in the minds of voters, and they stuck.
Wow! Lots of bowsiters posting above have missed the point that Stix was making. If you're going to hunt in a controversial way (long shot, baiting, etc) just don't post it on social media. That was his simple point. Just don't post it. In any state. Thank you.
I have not missed the point we have rambled back an forth and fear is controlling how we represent ourselves. Individual states looking to enact laws based on opinion.
Jaq, if Colorado was not whoring out their resources you would not need shorten seasons. It is basically everyone’s fallback if they don’t draw elsewhere.
“The OP is not suggesting that everybody limit their range to what somebody else considers "ethical". Rather, he is asking that we think a bit about how we portray ourselves to the non-bowhunting public, per the suggestion from this Commissioner. Perception becomes reality in people's minds, which can come back to bite us in the azz.
The OP is not suggesting that everybody limit their range to what somebody else considers "ethical". Rather, he is asking that we think a bit about how we portray ourselves to the non-bowhunting public, per the suggestion from this Commissioner. Perception becomes reality in people's minds, which can come back to bite us in the azz.” This alone is not a strategy! It is individual base level action that is neither strategic nor coordinated. Antis can take and any picture and turn it into trophy hunting. We have and are losing the communication game. The P&Y’s charter and rules should be enough to dispel the trophy hunter stigma but we are more concerned about a light on your bow.
"If you're going to hunt in a controversial way (long shot, baiting, etc) just don't post it on social media. That was his simple point. Just don't post it. In any state."
So it is ok to hunt unethically as long as nobody knows about it? If that is the message then I'm not onboard with it. How about having respect for the animal and not taking risky low percentage shots? I get that the effective range will be different for all individuals but a 100 yard shot is relatively low percentage for the simple fact of the time the arrow takes to get to it's live target. It's no different for Tim Wells or anyone else. If you don't do it then there won't be any stuff to post on social media.
KSflatlander do you have any experience standing up in the political realm for hunters? Explaining to law making nonhunters what is important to hunters is difficult. If you don't believe me try explaining the importance of hunting issues to someone you don't know well, like your kid's soccer coach.
Stix wasn't asking everybody to change their hunting or shooting methods. He is clearly dialed in to what is important for hunters in the political realm. He is asking that hunters can help ourselves by not hurting ourselves on social media. Stix wasn't asking you to be onboard with anything, except just don't post distasteful images on social media. That is all.
Ksflatland, who are you saying is hunting unethically and Who are you to determine the ethical distance for another hunter. I am not advocating anyone taking 100 yard shots. I am tired of many trying to limit others based their own abilities. So what is your limit? I would really like you to tell me so that I can hunt ethically.
I previously said that the limit changes by person and circumstances. However, I will say that I think 100 yards is unethical all the time. It is, and always will be, a judgement call by the hunter. I’m not saying there should be a law or hard number. Just more common sense, respect for the animal, and respect for our common passion.
Two issues here. First, people taking long distance shots that are likely outside their effective shooting range. Second, posting stuff on social media bragging about such antics. Outfitters in Canada and Africa deal with the first by having wounding policies. There is a consequence for making a bad shot. You think twice before taking a shot that is on the fringe of your effective shooting range when you realize that your hunt is done if you score a hit and fail to recover the animal. Not sure what can be done about the big mouths who like to post their exploits on social media other than peer pressure. Refuse to hunt with such people.
Heres my question. If we are not being asked to change how we hunt but rather not post kills over a certain distance. Then what distance is ok to post kills? I stated I don’t take long shots, I also don’t post animals anywhere but here. Still.. can I post a pic of something I killed at 50,60? What is acceptable to the morality police, the antis and commissioners with agendas?
A recent post indicated a a 40 yard frontal a Cape buffalo. I would not take that but the hunter did with a 25 yard recovery. Who am to tell him otherwise. He paid for the hunt and was willing to lose the money with the loss of a wounded animal. All the other post were under 30. I didn’t question his call at all but the best we can do is police our own ranks. That is passive at best and a poor excuse for a strategy. We are a group of individuals no state association talks to other state agencies and come and assist in the local anti hunting actions. Really we are a group of individuals berating other individual bow hunters and actually thinking that we are personally doing all that we can do?
guys we all agree that we can do better than posting these long shots. just don't post it. Why do the work for the anti's? Actually make them shoot fake footage instead of doing the work for them. I don't do social media except this site, but I always tell my wife not to post my harvest pictures. Its sad but true. Elkstabber, stix, & ksflatlander all had good points but they varied a bit.