Bull herding cows bugle
Elk
Is it different than a basic simple bugle and if so, bow? Any tips using it?
It has some raspy in the back end. I don’t use it anymore.
Bulls can send a message by the tone or emotion of their bugles such as Location/Advertising Bugles (popular ones) or the one you mention Lip Bawl Bugles; this bugle tone is a bull talking to his cows or calling cows his way such as from a hunter using cow calls. The Lip Bawl Bugle can be used in a low keyed conversational manner all the way to an aggressive action tone, sorta like us talking to someone or yelling at them.
Here's two audio clips, the first is the standard Location/Advertising Bugle & 2nd is the Lip Bawl Bugle. You should be able to hear the difference in emotion between them!
There are times both these Bugles can be utilized by hunters, it's situational as to which is best depending on an encounter you may be faced with.
ElkNut/Paul
Here's the 2nd Lip Bawl Bugles!
ElkNut/Paul
Thank's Paul!
Waipatibob, why did you stop using the call?
We currently have better success with two different cow calls. Something else will probably work better in a cpl years and we’ll switch to that.
^^^ But, but... cow calls only bring in raghorns. :>}
^^^Exactly. But you better know the difference between the early morning round-up bugle and the mid-afternoon round-up bugle. Of course, you want to talk about the late evening round-up bugle? That’s a whole different story.
David, the Lip Bawl Bugle is a very aggressive tone bulls will use in a variety of situations, it's all about emotion with a situation they're presented with. The Lip Bawl is best used on a herd bull with a hot cow in his presence, outside of that it's another bugle used that many hunters experiment with hoping a bull will bite no matter his mindset.
Do you need to have that Lip Bawl in your quiver to be an effective hunter, not really, the most advanced elk callers see value in it at just the right time on the right bull. Like most elk sounds it's situational.
Do you have any specific thoughts or reasons that you're concerned with regarding Calling Cows From A Bull?
ElkNut/Paul
Dave, this call is only for the MOST advanced elk callers. A guy like you, who is simply an expert mule deer caller, should probably not try it lest you get in over your head and unable to dig your way out. Best to stick with a a Hoochie Mama and leave the raspy stuff to the big boys who can actually smell when a cow is coming into estrus a few hours before she ovulates. But right then, a pre-ovulating cow wheeze-buzz-moan-plead can be even more effective.
Seriously, I'm with Wapitibob. I do better with some selective cow calls drawing the bull away rather than sounding like another aggressive bull with cows. That worked better in my area 10 years ago before every hunter in the woods was running around ripping-off raspy challenge bugles all day in swirling wind, and training the bulls.
Lou, I'm determined to be an expert elk caller...even if that means not calling! haha Right now, I'm probably a solid "B", but the last few years have been doing more raking in place of bull to cow calls. And i have called in bulls just breaking branches as well as with glunking which leads me to wonder whether all of these would be just as effective if not more effective in the 100 yd. and less scenarios.
But Hoochie Mama nooh pls. not that...
It’s been my very limited experience that in CO otc units, if you are bugling to a bull and not taking a tree, you are wasting your time. Like I said, I’m no expert.
All calling is situational. Right time right place. Claiming that certain sounds don’t work, or you have to be an expert, is simply being negative because some guys just aren’t very good and obviously are not very well rounded hunters. I don’t understand why anyone who almost exclusively hunts from a tree stand would ever entertain giving advice of any kind regarding calling. Or the guys who tried, failed and gave up and now don’t call and somehow are experts on calling advice. The tree stand guys should stick to giving advice on placing a tree stand, or what height should a stand be set. The non callers should start threads on how they non call a screaming bull into their laps every year. You guys wouldn’t have much advice to give.
It’s all about the right call at the right time. Granted there are times not to call. It’s all situational. Read the encounter, make the right play, and you will be a killer of elk
Thanks for setting us all straight, slick.
I wanna be a killer of elk...
David, you mention if any have tips on this herding cows sound. (Lip Bawl Bugle) First one would consider when & why do bulls use it, this would help us hunters to use it at the right times! We also hear the phrase 'Situational' -- What does this mean?
Bulls, both satellites & herd bulls use lip bawl bugles, it's a sign of emotion that can be heard in the tone of a bulls bugle!
Bulls will use it to call cows their way. It's also used against other bulls, simply put it's a tone/bugle of emotion for their present situation despite the gender although its more commonly heard when cows are part of the equation.
As shown in the 2nd Sound Clip there is a difference in intensity or emotion between Location & Lip Bawl Bugles. All those bulls were taken on video calling cows their way, most bulls were responding to hunters cow calling. The 6th Lip Bawl was a bull herding his cows from an intruder bull.
Many of us have heard this Lip Bawl as we've cow called & a bull has attempted to call us to him instead of him coming to us, this is generally a bull with cows & he doesn't want to leave to hook a single cow so he calls her to him.
I've used this Lip Bawl on several occasions in an attempt to call a hot cow from a herd bull, it's the perfect bugle tone in this situation since it's a common tone bulls use themselves to call cows their way.
I use this tone Instead of a course Challenge; I first call to the hot cow. How? I use 2-3 cow mews & a lip bawl along with raking all in the same motion, no hesitation in this transition between the two, there's no doubt the bull (me) is talking to the hot cow. This can fire up the herd bull & put him on full tilt when inside 100 yards! A few more trading bugles & here he comes! Of course a good tight setup is required for best results!
ElkNut/Paul
“ I wanna be a killer of elk...”
Brad, that’s so 1990’s. If we wanna be cool, apparently we need to learn how to be slaya’s.
So "slaya", who on this forum tried, failed and gave up and is giving calling advice?
I just do what they do... if I hear a bull bugle, either responding to me or unsolicited, I just mimic them and cut them off mid bugle, that seems to really piss them off. Then cow calls...
We hunters really need to keep up with the times. Not all bulls are attracted to cows anymore. Not all bulls identify as bulls anymore. Some just aren't sure anymore. Just like the bulls that aren't sure you shouldn't limit your opportunities either.
You really need to learn the "Bull herding bulls" call.
elkstabber, don't they just meet at the Forest Bathhouses... AKA Wallows?
"The non callers should start threads on how they non call a screaming bull into their laps every year".
or maybe, New Mexico residents shouldn't give advice on how to hunt OTC public land in Colorado...
Lmao I knew you’d be next to comment after your 3 amigos. I can tell you your decoy or umbrella does not work in CO or NM. Or so I’m told. Which one of you is the leader of your little pack. Is it you? Or are you just a follower? I think you are just a follower. Seems the same 4 or 5 guys always like to give negative comments when a certain well known elk extraordinaire chimes in with a little free advice on calling tactics. It’s become very noticeable. You should hang out on Archerytalk more often. Because all 4 of you fit right in. The guy who gives advice and hunts the same hill every year and complains about other hunters calling way too much in his area and only hunts mornings or late evenings because of thermals, really should consider finding another area because his area sounds like it sucks! The guy in the tree really is clueless about calling and should just admit it. Still not quite sure what to think about the 4th one. He’d be much more like able if he wasn’t just along for the ride. Maybe he should stick with fishing and hunting and not commenting. But hey. We can’t have it all, right?
But seriously, you 4 or 5 that are being contradictory against this guy, and you know who you are, and who he is, you should just stop already. Because all 4 or 5 of ya could return to respectability if you’d stop trying to drag the forum down because you have an axe to grind for some unknown reason ;)
Elkslaya, chill a little. You don't know what you don't know about the guys you are slamming, and about the the guy you worship. I hunt roughly a 60 square mile area, and my partner and I have killed 67 elk with a bow, so it doesn't suck too bad. We sorta know what we're doing. We just hunt differently than some others think we should.
Get a grip. It's the internet.
Ah, so now the agenda comes out, fanboy.
Funny thing is, those that yap the loudest about how others hunt normally do so to feel better about their own short-comings. You keep yappin’ , we’ll keep killing elk.
" I can tell you your decoy or umbrella does not work in CO or NM"
Yeah, you have to know how to use it. Maybe the "I don't know how to use a decoy" guys, should stick to running all over the mountain and blowing on their calls all day? ;^)
"I can tell you your decoy or umbrella does not work in CO or NM. Or so I’m told." That's right up there on the stupid statement scale. Whoever told you that is a certified dumbass. This bull was at 3 yards, peering over the top of the umbrella at me in a CO OTC unit. I didn't shoot him because I typically don't shoot raghorns every year like some elk extraordinaires, but yes, I called him in.
To the OP - David A.
Im interested in your tree raking/breaking branches and how you do it. Do you swing up first or down? What size of branches do you break? What size of tree works best to rake? Do you wear gloves?
Is there a difference in technique between Colorado and New Mexico? How about Wyoming and Idaho? Do you have any audio how the raking sounds? That would be awesome.
Maybe you could name your techniques of raking/breaking branches. 'C'mer Virgin Cow' tree rake? Or how about the 'Roid Rage' branch break. My personal favorite would be the 'Tree Sap Sticky'. That just sounds fun.
I'll be leaving for my elk hunts soon and Id like to practice, so if you could let us know that would be great. :>)
cnelk, I'm an experimenter . A few years ago, I got the bright idea I could imitate elk crashing antlers by banging ping pong paddles together. Then I switched to canoe paddles (cut way down to size, though).
Paul thanks for the links and comments.
Elkslaya, you might be over reacting. And probably giving us too much credit if you think there is a pack here. Or, any kind of hierarchy.
I caution people from calling too much because I've found that I've called too much in the past. Calling, raking, decoying, and other tactics all have their place and none of them will always work.
It is interesting to me that the absolute best elk caller in the world, Corey Jacobsen, grew up and lives relatively close to Paul. Northern ID is really thick and sparsely populated with people. Dense cover is ideal for calling. Undoubtedly there are other great callers in northern ID. But what works in northern ID may not be that useful in the rest of the West. It is also interesting that Corey's calling instructions are much less complicated than Paul's. Typically the best solution to a problem is the simplest. You are welcome to disagree.
Lastly, the guys who consistently kill the largest elk such as Randy Ulmer, Dan Evans, and others don't even use elk calls at all. You can't disagree with their success.
Here's a Link to the interview with the late, great Danny Moore, which is active on another thread...scroll down to the question: "Can guys Call too much"?
Not complicated, Thorough!
ElkNut/Paul
I don’t really care what you or your 4 amigos think Scoot. Bottom line is y’alls comments are very noticeable and so Archerytalk like. My Public Service Announcement was to put you on notice that you and the likes of you are bringing a great forum down to a new sinking level and 1 reason I stopped frequenting AT. Similar bs. So you and your cronies can pound sand to put it nicely. When you guys make your snide little comments, 99.99999% of the time, you weren’t being addressed to begin with and your comments ruin what little credibility you thought you had. Which right now is at an all time low btw.
Paul, by your last comment you seem to be claiming to be more thorough than the best elk caller in the world: Corey Jacobsen. Is that what you're saying?
We have hunted 6 different states and If no ones said it I will. The bulls cow dictates everything. When a guy figures that out, I'm all ears.
Elkstabber, what deems one the “best in the world” when it comes to hunting?
Most competition titles?
I’m not arguing, either one of them or most guys here are help and education to me. I’m just wondering where the title is coming from and how do we arrive there?
Because when it comes down to it both of them get it done year in and year out on public land. One only hunts otc idaho areas for the most part and the other travels a lot and hunts all over in more places.
Thanks for putting us on notice, Slaya. Since I was just interviewed on a podcast for Meateater yesterday, they must not have gotten your memo about my credibility being at an all-time low. I'll give Steve Rinella and Tony Peterson a call and let them know, lol!
All I know is ulmer doesn't call bulls and ulmer is preeeeeettty much the GOAT. So I'm gonna leave the tube at home. Along with my Slaya flat cap.
It must be exhausting for some of you guys.
Come on Slaya....were all ears...tells us how to do it or what were all doing wrong ??
"1 reason I stopped frequenting AT. Similar bs"
So you're saying there's a chance you'll do the same here? I know it'll be a huge loss, what with all your expertise and such, but maybe we'll somehow get lucky and manage to kill an elk or two somewhere down the line.
Curt, Thorough means not letting any elk encounter slip through ones hands because we're not sure how to handle it! This has nothing to do with Corey's awesome calling record. Plus Corey is a friend!
Calling elk, I mean all elk is a craft, it takes years to understand & master. It doesn't happen by accident. Just look at the popular videos available for Public viewing. They lose out on more elk than they call in. They are not familiar with other tactics to consider that would up their odds for better results, instead they stay with aggressive action on darned near every elk hoping something will trigger them. A hunter is better suited to Tailor his calling to that bulls needs or curiosity when there are no Hot Cows present. These are the toughest bull to call on OTC hunts. Conquer those & now you're becoming a good hunter/caller.
ElkNut/Paul
Sasquatch, I'm saying that Corey Jacobsen is the best elk caller in the world because he's won the most national elk calling competitions. It seems like the best way to measure the best elk caller. He's simply dominated the elk calling competitions. The competitions are judged as fairly as possible, and the judges can't see who is calling. So when Corey wins repeatedly it's simply because he's that talented.
I suppose another way to look at the best elk caller would be like a musician. Who has sold the most albums/CDs? I would doubt that anybody is close to Corey for most views/downloads/and purchases of his Elk101 course. I know personally that I've watched and rewatched some of his youtube videos with the BRO (Born and Raised Outdoors) guys a dozen times over. The one where Corey let a 6x5 go at 20 yards blew Trent's mind. Trent's reaction was hilarious.
So that's why I think Corey Jacobsen is the undisputed best elk caller in the world.
On one of Corey's youtube videos (2018 season) he and Dirk made fun of the "bull calling cows" call.
Keep in mind that the guys that consistently kill the absolute biggest bulls as Chasewild pointed out above don't use calls.
Apparently Corey won again last month.
No doubt Corey is a great caller. Big deal. I know a guy who used to compete before Corey's time against guys like Wayne Carlton, John Zarkesian, Deiter Kaboth, Glenn Berry, and a host of other great callers. He worked for HS for a number of years and hung out with all the "greats". He stopped competing because these contests are/were rigged. Very few can call cows away from a real herd bull. This guy is 1 of them. I've seen him do it. Unfortunately the bull who tried following the cows over our way stayed just behind some cover so we didn't get a shot.
Point being, you don't have to be a champion caller to kill elk or to be a great caller. Corey's agenda, like Paul's, other than mastering his craft of killing elk, is to sell a product and work in an industry that they both love. I think some are jealous of that. Not sure why some try to pit 1 against the other. Unless of course they are promoting their own agenda.....
Elkstabber I understand that, and also do know the elk and turkey competitions are more realistic vs the duck calling ones. I’d hate to hear someone deem the duck calling champion the best duck caller. That couldn’t be farther from the truth, a duck couldn’t even place in that competition.
But also, I’d rather be the best elk killer than caller. The jury will forever be out on who that is since so many of the guys in here get it done consistently. But some do it in diff ways. Calling I’d think would be the most exciting, next to stalking in on a herd, that’s a whole diff rush.
Elkstabber I understand that, and also do know the elk and turkey competitions are more realistic vs the duck calling ones. I’d hate to hear someone deem the duck calling champion the best duck caller. That couldn’t be farther from the truth, a duck couldn’t even place in that competition.
But also, I’d rather be the best elk killer than caller. The jury will forever be out on who that is since so many of the guys in here get it done consistently. But some do it in diff ways. Calling I’d think would be the most exciting, next to stalking in on a herd, that’s a whole diff rush.
I feel what some don't understand is that guys like Corey & Myself have a Passion for not just hunting elk but we want to share with others the things that we've learned & has led to our success. Yes, we both have small businesses but I can tell you from my heart that my Passion for elk hunting is fueled by helping others! I could care less about the financial end these days.
This is not a competition.
ElkNut/Paul
Thanks for clearing that up for us Paul! Now let's get back to the subject at hand which is becoming better elk killers even if we have killed a slew of elk. When there's nothing left to learn, that's the day I quit ;)
