Black Gold Sights - Pure Gold
Keto & Elk Camp
Elk
Contributors to this thread:
Darrell 27-Aug-19
elkmtngear 27-Aug-19
Ermine 27-Aug-19
Darrell 27-Aug-19
COHOYTHUNTER 27-Aug-19
Vonfoust 27-Aug-19
Lone Bugle 27-Aug-19
sdkhunter 27-Aug-19
Darrell 27-Aug-19
coelker 27-Aug-19
COHOYTHUNTER 27-Aug-19
LINK 27-Aug-19
Brotsky 27-Aug-19
EmbryOklahoma 27-Aug-19
elkstabber 27-Aug-19
jordanathome 27-Aug-19
Vonfoust 27-Aug-19
jordanathome 27-Aug-19
Brotsky 27-Aug-19
Yellowjacket 27-Aug-19
Yellowjacket 27-Aug-19
Whitey 27-Aug-19
LINK 27-Aug-19
jordanathome 27-Aug-19
IdyllwildArcher 27-Aug-19
SteveBNY 27-Aug-19
LINK 27-Aug-19
Owl 27-Aug-19
jordanathome 27-Aug-19
SDHNTR(home) 27-Aug-19
cnelk 27-Aug-19
Whitey 27-Aug-19
elkmtngear 27-Aug-19
elkmtngear 27-Aug-19
Surfbow 27-Aug-19
Whitey 27-Aug-19
SBH 27-Aug-19
Whitey 27-Aug-19
wyonative1972 27-Aug-19
elkmtngear 27-Aug-19
Matt 27-Aug-19
jordanathome 27-Aug-19
Ermine 27-Aug-19
Whitey 27-Aug-19
Glunt@work 28-Aug-19
bowhunter24 28-Aug-19
TrapperKayak 28-Aug-19
TrapperKayak 28-Aug-19
WV Mountaineer 28-Aug-19
EmbryOklahoma 28-Aug-19
TrapperKayak 28-Aug-19
HDE 28-Aug-19
WV Mountaineer 28-Aug-19
midwest 28-Aug-19
Jordanathome 28-Aug-19
Owl 28-Aug-19
cnelk 28-Aug-19
Boris 28-Aug-19
jordanathome 28-Aug-19
Bowboy 28-Aug-19
midwest 28-Aug-19
midwest 28-Aug-19
Owl 28-Aug-19
WV Mountaineer 28-Aug-19
Owl 28-Aug-19
KHNC 28-Aug-19
jordanathome 28-Aug-19
Vonfoust 28-Aug-19
Owl 28-Aug-19
Boris 28-Aug-19
Will 28-Aug-19
Owl 29-Aug-19
APauls 29-Aug-19
EmbryOklahoma 29-Aug-19
midwest 29-Aug-19
Owl 29-Aug-19
COHOYTHUNTER 29-Aug-19
LINK 29-Aug-19
nimishasaxena 29-Aug-19
Owl 29-Aug-19
Darrell 29-Aug-19
Will 29-Aug-19
LINK 29-Aug-19
midwest 29-Aug-19
Jordanathome 29-Aug-19
Bowbender 29-Aug-19
Boris 29-Aug-19
Owl 29-Aug-19
midwest 29-Aug-19
Surfbow 29-Aug-19
Darrell 29-Aug-19
Owl 29-Aug-19
jordanathome 29-Aug-19
APauls 29-Aug-19
jordanathome 29-Aug-19
Jordanathome 29-Aug-19
jordanathome 29-Aug-19
WapitiBob 29-Aug-19
ground hunter 29-Aug-19
Owl 30-Aug-19
SBH 30-Aug-19
Will 30-Aug-19
IdyllwildArcher 31-Aug-19
Owl 31-Aug-19
EmbryOklahoma 31-Aug-19
HH 31-Aug-19
DanaC 31-Aug-19
From: Darrell
27-Aug-19
OK, I cut back on my sugar at the first of the year, cut out it all back in February and went full Keto the first of April. I was 252# in January and I was 210# this morning. If my back hadn't started giving me issues three weeks ago, I would be feeling really good about my ability to climb the mountain in a couple weeks. Unfortunately, the last 3 weeks, I have had to back off and only do some walking instead of biking.

With that said, I am trying to decide what food to take to camp. I will be truck camping at night but leaving the tent at least 1.5 hours before first light and unless I'm taking an evening off, not getting back until after dark. I'm not too worried about sticking to Keto too religiously but would like to stay somewhat on principles.

I'm smoking a brisket right now and I've bought a bunch of sausage sticks for the pack. Planning on taking avocados (I love them just by themselves), nuts and maybe a head of cauliflower for a day when I skip the evening hunt figuring I can throw it on the grill or fire. Also going to fry up a bunch of bacon and sausage so I can cook eggs at night and will take a salad mix and some broccoli.

Anyone else doing Keto and if so, what are you taking?

From: elkmtngear
27-Aug-19
I completely do a 180 on my diet every Year on my elk hunt...and I never gain a pound, but I'm usually ripped when I get back.

I'm burning 3 times the amount of calories I normally consume when I'm in the Rockies doing "Elk Aerobics"...so it's all the sugar and carbs, plus enough protein to replace the ripped up muscles.

From: Ermine
27-Aug-19
This is my opinion, but Keto and mtn hunting don’t belong together. I generally eat low carb year round.

But when it comes to hunting and hiking mtns I find I have more energy and preform better with some carbs

From: Darrell
27-Aug-19
I get that and I'm not worried about gaining weight. However, I don't want to get back into a carb mindset. I don't really miss them too much but am concerned that getting completely away would make it hard for re-entry.

From: COHOYTHUNTER
27-Aug-19
Ermine x2..... Keto has its place and from all the studies done, its place is short term as it can do long term damage.. as for mountain hunting.. you need the extra energy from carbs.. your body now has limited fat to burn and glycogen stores are depleted that is that has created the rapid weight loss.. However, when hunting in the mountains, you are burning a ton of calories every day and need all the additional energy you can get... Also, you will notice a world of difference and your body will feel so much better with some carbs.. Don't worry, you if you take in 200 grms of carbs a day during mountain hunting, you will not gain back the weight, in fact, you'll probably keep losing and be leaner upon your return. You body will be burning the calories differently and more efficiently.

From: Vonfoust
27-Aug-19
A head of cauliflower? Please don't tell my hunting buddies about this, it's possibly the only way I'm not taking their food.

From: Lone Bugle
27-Aug-19

Lone Bugle's embedded Photo
Lone Bugle's embedded Photo

From: sdkhunter
27-Aug-19
I agree with some of the other thoughts - eat some pizza and other things - you're body will be craving/needing the carbs and sugars... That being said I'm going on my elk hunt this year with a 'keto' guy and he has some of the same conerns... He also isn't worried about gaining weight on the trip itself as he is open to eating more of the food he normally wouldn't but I do think he doesn't want this to be the start of a tail spin back to gaining a bunch of weight.... We're planning to go heavy on meat... Steaks, brats, eggs, bacon, cheese, etc. Probably PB sandwiches, trail mix, gronla bars and meat sticks for snacks during the day...

From: Darrell
27-Aug-19
Obviously, you have never had a head of cauliflower cooked over a fire with lots of butter and green chili. :) That is some good eats!

From: coelker
27-Aug-19
Next mile meals are pretty good. They are a freeze dried meal that is keto smart. Better than most in that they do not use cheap carb fillers like rice. https://www.nextmilemeals.com/

I personally blow off my keto diet for elk camp and splurge. Then coming off the hunt I do a 2 day fast then right back to Keto...

From: COHOYTHUNTER
27-Aug-19
In all seriousness, I would recommend carb load and night and morning during your hunt.. maybe a few carbs during the day.. At night eat your sausage and burgers and steaks, but add potatoes or pasta and don't forget veggies, you need those nutrients too.. For breakfast, what I usually do is a bowl of oatmeal with a tablespoon of peanut butter and a banana. I've done and do keto, but I usually only do for 3 months out of the year.. the rest of the year is low carb high protein diet. But not during hunting season.. Not only does my body need the additional calories and carbs, but its a good break for your body to reset. In fact right now, I have already started to increase calorie intake and eating things I normally don't to slow it down (ice cream, pizza, beer nightly), I noticed I was dropping weight super fast and that is not good going into a hunt, if I don't slow it down, it will continue and i'll feel drained every day hunting.

From: LINK
27-Aug-19
I’m with ermine. Keto and mountains don’t mix. When your heart rate gets high it switches from burning fat to carbs. When you don’t have carbs stored you bonk. Keto might work for a marathon but not for climbing mountains. My brother is a Keto poster child but he’s doing a modified Keto or likely no ketosis for the mountains. I’d consider slightly falling off the wagon for a period.

From: Brotsky
27-Aug-19
Eat whatever you want during your hunt and return to low carb when you get back. It’s all determination and mind set. You can do it! I can’t, I’m fat and like beer and pizza, I just hike more! Ha!

27-Aug-19
I agree with Ermine. I've been carb loading the last week or so and actually lost more weight. I'll continue to do this and I'm not concerned about what I'll be eating while up there, to an extent. I'll have plenty of nuts, protein bars, tuna packs, etc, during the day. Mountain house meals and other snacks for dinner when we roll in and worn out. I feel up there, that you need to up your carb/calorie intake, a bunch!

Well done on your weight loss! For the record, I started out doing Keto and adjusted my diet to fit accordingly. Guess you could say I've been doing a partial Keto. I'm now at 178, down from 232. I feel better than ever!

From: elkstabber
27-Aug-19
Have to agree with Ermine. I eat very low carb all year, except for mountain hunting.

From: jordanathome
27-Aug-19
I have plenty of carbs loaded.....like a whole donut around my waist.......I feel like Homer Simpson. Great to hear this is ideal for mountain hunting!!!!

From: Vonfoust
27-Aug-19

Vonfoust's Link

From: jordanathome
27-Aug-19

jordanathome's Link
I be like........

From: Brotsky
27-Aug-19
I'm into the same level of fitness as Jordan...like fitness whole bag of Dot's in my stomach!

From: Yellowjacket
27-Aug-19
Add in a few relatively safe carbs like sweet potatoes and possibly some instant white or precooked white or wild rice. I make a cold sweet potato salad to take, don't have to cook at night. No need to go overboard on junk carbs.

From: Yellowjacket
27-Aug-19
Also Mark Sisson and Ben Greenfield have some blogs on low carb endurance. Google them.

From: Whitey
27-Aug-19
People lose weight going from keto to high carb because their gut flora cannot process the carbs efficiently. It takes up to two weeks to adjust or more depending on the individual. I wouldn’t change much dietarily before the season because of the risk of upsetting my system. Wild blood sugar swings will happen going to processed foods vs Whole Foods. You will notice it less if you are not in peak condition and more the higher conditioned you are. Keto is fine for the mountains, just increase your fat intake to adjust to your calorie burn if it increases. Hiking doesn’t burn as many calories as people think it does it just seems like it because most people inconsistently train and when they do it’s typically flat land aerobic the most of the year. Hiking 4 miles in the mountains is like hiking 6 on flat ground.

From: LINK
27-Aug-19
Darrell, burnt broccoli is a staple at my house. It’s better than drowning it in butter or ranch. We eat a lot of baked sweet taters too, hardly any white taters and occasionally a red tater. Man I’m getting hungry. Some say “don’t blame the butter for what the bread did to you” I say don’t blame the bread for what your lack of self control did to you. ;)

From: jordanathome
27-Aug-19
Scarfing down a small helping of yoghurt, blueberries with granola crumble right now.......stomach flora rejoice!!!!

27-Aug-19
I also agree with Ermine. I stay low-carb all year and bounce in and out of a keto diet to stay slim, but I eat my carbs in the mountains.

As mentioned, check out Next Mile freeze dried meals. It's all I ate on my recent sheep hunt as far as freeze-dried go, but I added in dried mangos, Cliff bars, Almonds, and tons of Jolly Ranchers. Felt great, but was definitely getting way more than 30 grams of net carbs/day.

The best Next Mile meals are the Beef Taco, Italian Meatball, and Deli Roast Beef. The breakfasts are meh. I prefer 1/2 of a Mountain House biscuits&gravy and 1/2 of any of the egg scramble meals for breakfast.

From: SteveBNY
27-Aug-19
You are fat adapted now meaning your body is great at burning fat for fuel. If burning 3 times as many calories, up the fat intake. It's the most nutrient and calorie dense food you can eat.

From: LINK
27-Aug-19
That’s great Steve but if your body can’t convert fat to fuel fast enough at 130 heartbeats a minute, being fat adapted won’t help. You have to have readily available glycogen stores or keep your heart rate relatively low. Where I hunt it’s hard to go up and keep my heart rate low. That’s why I say it may work for a marathon. Your body can keep up with fat stores when your heart rate is only slightly increased. Chasing a bull up is like running a sprint 8 times in a row.

From: Owl
27-Aug-19
I’ve been largely Keto for about 5 years now. It’s a great protocol for metabolic regulation, mental acuity and aerobic load but, for anaerobic work, it is substandard. Vastly. Don’t do a Keto protocol unless you’ve made a couple hard climbing hikes under heavy load without bonking.

If you’ve eaten the standard American diet most of your life, chances are your body cannot make glycogen out of protein effectively enough to replenish what you use under strain.

I’m headed to BC in a month and, for my money, I’m easing into more of a low carb protocol.

From: jordanathome
27-Aug-19

jordanathome's embedded Photo
jordanathome's embedded Photo
Loading carbs and h2o at the same time........

From: SDHNTR(home)
27-Aug-19
I'm with Ermine. Scratch Keto a few days before your hunt and eat everything you can stuff in your mouth.

From: cnelk
27-Aug-19
All I know is that big fat juicy burger after elk season is one of the best meals I ever have

From: Whitey
27-Aug-19
People think they are burning 2 or 3 times their normal calorie rate are not being realistic. For a very healthy 200 lb man that would be 5000 to 7500 calories a day. Silliness considering a 200lb man with a 25lb pack hiking 4 miles RT gaining 1200 feet of elevation only burns 750 calories in that 90 minutes. That means you would have do that same hike 6 to 10 times a day to burn that many calories. I can guarantee you even if you could do it you would only do it one day and need to rest 2 or 3 days to recover before you could do it again.

From: elkmtngear
27-Aug-19
"All I know is that big fat juicy burger after elk season is one of the best meals I ever have"

"After elk Season"?

The last thing I do before I bail off into camp for 12 Days, is stop at the closest Choke and Puke, and jam one down my throat! ;^p

From: elkmtngear
27-Aug-19
"People think they are burning 2 or 3 times their normal calorie rate are not being realistic".

You've never hunted with me, Whitey.

Last time we went to NM, we covered 17 miles the first Day, taking out the bull we killed in two trips. Got up the next morning, and hit it hard again for another 10 mile Day. All the while going up and down covering 2000 feet of elevation gain. 10 mile Days are standard in the Flattops, where you cover 2000 feet of elevation, in just 2 miles.

Copied and pasted from a hunting nutrition site:

"When you are hunting, you are also burning a ton of calories. Sheep hunters can expect to burn anywhere from 8,000 to 11,000 calories per day! Western elk and deer hunters can expect to burn between 6,000 to 9,000 calories (or more) per day. To be blunt, there is no way you can keep up with your eating. You need to eat foods that are high in carbs and fats while also having some protein so that your caloric intake is high, your food sticks with you longer and your body is getting the nutrients it needs. A great rule of thumb is to bring food that provides at least 100 calories per ounce of weight".

From: Surfbow
27-Aug-19
+1 Ermine! You don't need a keto diet, just a healthy, balanced one. Most folks who are doing the 'keto' thing aren't even close to actual ketosis anyway, they're just on the good ol' Atkins diet...

From: Whitey
27-Aug-19
To be blunt you can find people that have scientific proof that we never landed in the moon on the internet.

Calories burned are way over stated. Go to any hiking calories burned calculator and punch in your numbers. I did your 17 mile hunt at my body weight and I would burn 2940 Calories. E Not account for packing out the elk. I doubt that would double the burn. For comparison An Ironman is a 2.4 mile swim, a 112 mile bikeride and a 26.22 mile run and the avg. male competitor burns 10k calories. At a 15 minute mile pace gaining and loosing 2000 feet 3x I would have to hike 8 hours non stop to burn 6000 calories. If I am doing that every day I am not much of a hunter or a shitty scout. .

From: SBH
27-Aug-19
Strong work losing the weight and changing your diet. Way to go man! If your truck camping you should be able to eat just about as good as you eat at home. Maybe bring some protein powders and cliff bar type stuff for lunch. Sounds like you have a good plan.

From: Whitey
27-Aug-19
The second part of the equation is how many calories are in what you eat. Most people have zero idea that’s why they are fat. The other group guesses because the only way you know for sure is to eat either labeled food or weigh and track everything you eat. I weigh and track everything I eat and have done so religiously for 15 years. To eat 11000 calories in a day you would have to eat all day long. For example you would have to eat 61 protein bars. Cut that in half to 5500 calories and you have to eat 30 protein bars a day. That’s 10 for breakfast then 10 for lunch and 10 for dinner. 99.9% of the people that say they burn 10k calories a day hunting are full of it. Just look at the pictures they post.

27-Aug-19
taco meat, fajitas (elk if you have it). freeze them and put in a cooler and heat with a little water. cooks up really fast if you have a jet boil and a pan. love mexican food on hunts. this works with eggs too. put some bacon, sausage, and cheese in there and you're in business. lunch meat with cheese works too for snacks. freeze some water bottles prior to your hunt and use those to keep the lunch meat cold in your pack.

From: elkmtngear
27-Aug-19
Whitey, I'm assuming all the referenced activities were taken at Sea Level?

Less Oxygen= body works harder to maintain oxygenation of tissues= Increased Basal Metabolic rate.

It's apples and oranges, when you factor in elevation. There's a reason that most people drop fat and gain muscle, while eating high carb diets at high elevation.

People attempting to Summit high peaks easily burn 6000+ calories daily, and they are just taking the least steps possible to get there (not running all over the mountain chasing bugles).

Personally, I hunt pre-dawn to post dusk every Day in the Rockies. Rinse and repeat. So, 8 hours would be a very short Day.

BTW, I just used one of your "hiking calculators"...and came up with 6677 calories for that hunt I described (165 pounds, 30 pound pack, uphill and downhill, 10 hours, 17 miles, average incline more than 10 percent). That's my normal pack weight without elk, and doesn't account for the high elevation.

From: Matt
27-Aug-19
"Calories burned are way over stated. Go to any hiking calories burned calculator and punch in your numbers. I did your 17 mile hunt at my body weight and I would burn 2940 Calories."

As over stated as a calories burned calculator? Not all 17 miles are created equal.

From: jordanathome
27-Aug-19
I tried my hardest to derail this thread but hell you guys did it for me! Thx! LOL

From: Ermine
27-Aug-19
“Calories burned are way overrated!”

Lol

From: Whitey
27-Aug-19
Elk. We haven’t even gotten into what happens in calorie deficits, burning muscle vs fat. Cretenine blood saturation effects on the kidneys and liver and all of the other effects. Like I said 99.9% of the people claiming they do the equivalent of an iron man for days in a row have it coming out their ears. Good for you if you are in the .001%

From: Glunt@work
28-Aug-19
I eat whatever I want and figure the lack of stressing over what I am eating will result in a healthier life.

*The above statement was made by a professional and in no way is meant to suggest or recommend that eating anything you want will result in better health or make the mountain any less steep*

From: bowhunter24
28-Aug-19
I am with you Jordan I think we put a microbrewery at the top of every mountain and we would all be in better shape!

From: TrapperKayak
28-Aug-19
My best advice would be to lose the greasy fat sausages, sausage sticks, and bacon. I always have way more energy when I go with lean protein and carbs in the right combos - Zone. Animal fats just make you logey and lack of high energy spells defeat when it comes to longevity in the field. Avacado and nut fats are better but also not conducive to weight loss if that is your goal. That's my experience.

From: TrapperKayak
28-Aug-19
'we put a microbrewery at the top of every mountain and we would all be in better shape!' Yeah, because we would have something to go there for!

28-Aug-19
I started keto jan7th this year. I run it for two months and lost 50 pounds. However, it wasn’t as good as it sounds.

I lost a lot of muscle too. Way weaker by the end of those two months. But, the biggest reason I quit it was due to not being able to stay hydrated. I do landscaping and construction work. So, once it warms up, I sweat 12 hours a day hard. And, I was getting extremely dehydrated. Dizzy kind of dehydration. Due to not being able to store enough water. I was forced to get off it and I still more carbs back into my diet. And, I feel much better. I’ve got my strength back. And, I can work all day without issue.

My opinion is if you don’t do physically demanding work, Métis a good thing. If you do, better stick to a nutritious balanced diet with good carbs. It’s the only way to stay hydrated when sweating heavily b

28-Aug-19
Can you put a couple bottles of Bourbon up there too, Trapper? :)

WV, I went through very similar circumstances. I had to put in other higher carb foods back into my diet for that very reason. Back in May I was hauling limbs from various trees to the front yard and into my trailer. About load #4 I bent down to grab a bundle of limbs and nearly passed out from being light headed. I feel it was due to the reasons you stated above. I also drink quite a bit of water, but clearly wasn't hydrated fully. Probably wasn't getting adequate amounts of nutrients either. That's when I steered from the hardcore counting macros (KETO) and put a lot more plant based foods and lean meats in my daily calorie intake. Seems to have worked. Like you, I lost muscle mass as well. I've found my zone now and slowly getting muscle strength back. Well done on your weight loss, Justin!

From: TrapperKayak
28-Aug-19

TrapperKayak's embedded Photo
TrapperKayak's embedded Photo
Sure... Mountaintop Distillery has some. :)

From: HDE
28-Aug-19
Keto is to kickstart weight loss. Low carb diet means low fuel diet.

Best diet to be on is a Mediterranean diet and keep processed sugars to a minimum.

28-Aug-19
Rick, the thing was, I only lost 1.5 inches off my waist. What I noticed was i really became very vascular. But, my muscles were flat.

I was drinking well over a gallon of water a day. But, I just couldn’t stay hydrated. My first episode of the light headed effect was while cutting a tree too. Guess that’s hard work. lol

Anyways, I had the guy working with me go to the store and get a gallon of tomatoes juice and a rind of bananas. I couldn’t get my senses. I devoured it all before getting my senses back. That night, after a supper of 6 eggs and six pieces of bacon, my sugar was only 61. That’s when really started to realize how severe this was. A strict keto diet is just not good for people who are active.

From: midwest
28-Aug-19
Keto, Schmeto.....eat a clean, balanced diet at least 80% of the time, workout like a beast both cardio and strength CONSISTENTLY year around and you'll be fine. If you need to lose fat, a calorie deficit is what it takes regardless of the latest "diet" trend. The key is to lose it slowly and don't worry about the scale....just measure your waist. Make it a lifestyle.

From: Jordanathome
28-Aug-19
Burp

From: Owl
28-Aug-19
WVM, Electrolytes, not hydration could be the issue. It's tough to get a handle on that and drinking an excess of water will just exacerbate the problem.

I have no doubt what we call keto or even carnivore diets are our optimal fueling. We have ice age DNA. For the most part, when our code was written, the carbs we consumed were from the alimentary tracts of the animals we killed, stole or found dead. Probably why humans do so well on fermented vegetables...just a personal theory.

That stated, most us have been eating an industrialized junk food diet for decades and have nuked the metabolic processes needed to function well in every aspect of fitness on an "original way of eating." So those of us rehabilitating our health are stuck trying to navigate a purgatory of appropriate carb fueling. And that stinks because most of the western world has also proven we can't really manage carbohydrate consumption. lol

From: cnelk
28-Aug-19
How do you know if someone is on the KETO diet??

They will be sure to tell ya

From: Boris
28-Aug-19
Is any body using the keto supplements? If so, which ones. I have been watching my carbs due to diabetes. (type 2) I have maintained my weight at 205 for the last 5 years. I am do a lot of walking. Now that I am retired, I plan to start hitting the gym an doing more cardo and some weights. I would like to get to 175. But, my PCP says I am doing great right were I am at. Sugars are stable a1c is stable. But, I personally don't feel right where I am at now. I have seen adds and different things about the keto diet. your thoughts. thanks

From: jordanathome
28-Aug-19
LMAO at Brad!!!!!

From: Bowboy
28-Aug-19
I just want to hunt with Brad and eat at his walleye fry he has at elk camp

From: midwest
28-Aug-19
"...most of the western world has also proven we can't really manage carbohydrate consumption. lol "

It just blows my mind seeing all the fat Americans walking around today. What's even more disturbing is the number of fat kids and what their parents are feeding them. Sad. This country is doomed.

From: midwest
28-Aug-19
Craig, we just need to kill early and make it down to Brad's camp for the walleye feast!

From: Owl
28-Aug-19
"It just blows my mind seeing all the fat Americans walking around today. What's even more disturbing is the number of fat kids and what their parents are feeding them. Sad. This country is doomed."

-midwest, we're screwed because our world produces and consumes a value-added substrate that is highly addictive and hormonally biased toward hyperphagia and adiposity. I say that as someone who has been there.

28-Aug-19
Owl, you are likely right as far as electrolytes are concerned. But, this is what I know about me and my body. I have to have carbs when doing highly physical things. Walking around a track, biking, swimming, etc... is great for the body. You do that for an Hour a day. But, when you are roofing, pushing mowers hard, pouring concrete,, you are essentially doing the same as weight training and cardio for 10-12 hours a day. There is no way to store enough water or electrolytes, due to the lack of glycogen in your muscles when eating a very carb restricted diet. It just isn’t there.

After chemo, I really have to work as staying nutrient balanced too. So, if carrying around 10 pounds of water weight is what it takes, that’s what I’m going to do.

It’s taken me all summer to get my fasting sugar to raise back into the 80’s. I can eat till I bust and it won’t break 130 30 minutes after a meal. A person can’t be physically active like that. I don’t know what the keto diet did to me but, I’m certain I’ll never do it again.

From: Owl
28-Aug-19
Boris, Magnesium and Potassium are popular supplements. People will also add Pink Himalayan Sea Salt for electrolyte issues. Magnesium really helps you stay regular.

From: KHNC
28-Aug-19
"Also Mark Sisson and Ben Greenfield have some blogs on low carb endurance. Google them."

As good of shape as Greenfield is in, he had a DNF this summer in July at Train To Hunt Colorado. Cramps and extreme fatigue. Likely due to dehydration as well. Id say low carb was not his best choice on the mountain.

From: jordanathome
28-Aug-19

jordanathome's Link

From: Vonfoust
28-Aug-19
"midwest, we're screwed because our world produces and consumes a value-added substrate that is highly addictive and hormonally biased toward hyperphagia and adiposity. I say that as someone who has been there."

No idea what this means but I'm not giving up beer.

From: Owl
28-Aug-19
"No idea what this means but I'm not giving up beer."

-Exactly.

From: Boris
28-Aug-19
Thanks guys. I know that when I have too many carbs, my sugar goes way up. Then all I want to do is sleep. When it get low I feel like I have taken some speed.

From: Will
28-Aug-19
Eat carbohydrate. Yes, some (NOT all) ultra distance athletes do well on low carb/keto style diets... though even there it gets murky and comes with some odd things like reduced efficiency even though one can utilize fat's as a fuel at a higher rate. Sounds counter intuitive and counter to the point of going low carb or keto from an endurance point of view... but happens. We are designed to burn a mix, to be metabolically flexible with the fuels we use. When you look at the massive majority of evidence on endurance performance of all distances (at this point including ultras if you go on averages vs outliers), modest to higher carbohydrate diets win. Hiking around the mountains for days is a challenging bout of work. And if you are at altitude, you are burning more carbohydrate regardless given lower O2 availability. So a trip like that is a double edged sword. You have plenty of hard work hiking and hopefully packing out an elk... but also lower O2 availability... So you are going to benefit from getting some carbohydrate in your diet.

Low carb/Keto can work awesome for some folks, some of the time. So can moderate to higher carbohydrate (not high candy and donuts, but higher carbohydrate)... Diet is not a "one way or the highway" proposition.

From: Owl
29-Aug-19
WVM, I have no idea what chemo does to a body (I pray all that is behind you). I'm sure it ain't stellar in the long term. I agree that folks cannot work under strain efficiently without carbs anymore. But that reflects chronic metabolic damage rather than an insufficiency of fat and protein as fuel sources for humans.

Metabolically deranged as we are, active people need to tweak up they're carb content for glycogen stores. However, by lifestyle choice, most of the people in this society don't need to access their glycogen. No reason why those people should be consuming carbohydrates anywhere near the rate we do today.

From: APauls
29-Aug-19
I don't know a single person that home-cooks the majority of their food and has a moderately active lifestyle that has dieting and/or weight issues. I firmly believe the #1 issue with food is buying it. Make food that comes from the ground or runs around and you'll be fine. Sprinkle in some tort to keep you happy. Processed foods are the killer.

I'm blown away at how my metabolism has slowed down over the last number of years, and how little I move during the average work day. I can often have days moving 4,000 steps. And yet, I still weigh in at 170. But my lunch consists of leftovers, I don't eat breakfast and my supper is something I cooked. Usually a wild meat and a starch, and a veggie. Same way my parents cooked, and their parents, and their parents before them. Well, although my parents never used an instant pot ;) I can definitely stand to be in better shape, but active activities and playing ice hockey year round keeps me in decent enough shape that when I want to ramp it up I have no issues doing so.

It just boggles my mind the crazy swings people will put their bodies through following the latest thing though.

29-Aug-19
"It just boggles my mind the crazy swings people will put their bodies through following the latest thing though." People get caught up in life. They make poor decisions in eating. I was guilty. I made a change in January because, frankly, I was tired, too fat, had poor eating habits, and bad food became a convenience. Not really that mind boggling.

From: midwest
29-Aug-19
"Sprinkle in some tort to keep you happy."

Tort? Was that supposed to read "Dot's"? ;-)

From: Owl
29-Aug-19
"Not really that mind boggling." Yeah, this is a pet peeve of mine. Western culture is basically in a hormonally ascribed state of perpetual hyperphagia and fat accumulation - a fat feedback loop wherein, through dietary (content) choices, we trigger our hormones (like insulin) to do things: make us feel hungry and store fat. Think fall bears on a berry patch or a corn field. Now, imagine that patch or corn field never runs out of production and winter never comes.

To make another analogy, looking to lose weight on standard American diet calorie deficit is like a heroine addict kicking the habit by using a little less heroine.

The chief benefit of a keto or any severe carb restriction diet is to break the carbohydrate fueled adiposity feedback loop long enough to stop accumulating said fat and greatly reduce the addiction to the very foods that make us fat. Or, to quote a source, "We aren't getting fat because we eat too much. We eat too much because we are getting fat."

From: COHOYTHUNTER
29-Aug-19
You all be trippin'... keep it simple.. eat less and work out more to lose weight. When exerting more energy take in more calories for said energy loss replacement.. one does not need to eliminate all carbs, especially for prolonged periods. For quick weight loss, sure. But the human body is designed to eat a balance of protein, fat and carbohydrates. We are not strictly carnivores, if we were, we would have only very jagged and sharp teeth. No where at any time has any human skull/jaw been found with teeth like a lion. I think if one eats good healthy clean (unprocessed, non dairy, low sugar) diet all will be good in tha hood. Or you can continue to deplete your body of necessary nutrients because it's the latest cool thing to do.. repost in ten years and tell everyone how your liver and kidney function is along with hormone levels.

From: LINK
29-Aug-19
I agree with Apauls. If people would drop eating fast food and snacks and drinks from the piggly wiggly the obesity problem would be minimal. In general if you’re cooking/ eating stuff with a shelf life your eating bad. Buy fresh or frozen and learn when to step away from the table. Counting calories isnt the be all to end all but pay attention to your caloric intake and you’ll drop honey buns and frappes pretty quick. You beer drinkers need to switch to vodka, lol.

29-Aug-19

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From: Owl
29-Aug-19
"You all be trippin'... keep it simple.. eat less and work out more to lose weight." The calorie deficit approach has a 95% failure rate for weight loss. Good advice. Fix your hormones first or you're largely wasting your time and accelerating into the downward spiral, metabolically speaking.

"But the human body is designed to eat a balance of protein, fat and carbohydrates." It's interesting to note that we have a need for exogenous protein and fat but there is no daily requirement for carbohydrate intake.

Dr. Barry Groves - a champion archer (btw) - gives fascinating evidence of what we should be eating and why.

From: Darrell
29-Aug-19
Wow. I didn't expect this thread to get this much action. Anyway, thanks for the feedback. Keto has been great for me though just getting off sugar was probably even bigger. One thing I noticed a couple weeks in was that my shoulder quit hurting. I have had a pain in my shoulder that radiated down into my arm for years. It would usually keep me awake some at least a couple nights a week. However, within two weeks of being off sugar and lowering my carb intake, the pain went away and has stayed away. Also, I quit snoring. My wife has appreciated the latter even more. That probably has to do with the weight loss but who knows. I just know I feel much better today than I did in January and am looking forward to how that plays out while I'm chasing elk in 12 days.

From: Will
29-Aug-19
We are able to thrive on a multitude of dietary approaches. It's one of the evolutionary gifts humans possess. Eat minimally processed foods, be active, have down time in your day, have social time in your day and you are going down a very good road from a long term health perspective.

From: LINK
29-Aug-19
Glad to see I am among those with an elite status than can lose weight when burning more calories than they consume or maintain my weight by watching what I eat. I’ve always thought about writing a 1 page book about how to lose weight but now I know it won’t work for 95% of people. ;) Could be nothing will work for them as they do not have the fortitude to stick with anything but over eating double cheeseburger meals.

From: midwest
29-Aug-19
"The calorie deficit approach has a 95% failure rate for weight loss."

Owl, are you saying you can lose weight on a calorie surplus?

From: Jordanathome
29-Aug-19

Jordanathome's embedded Photo
Jordanathome's embedded Photo

From: Bowbender
29-Aug-19
Jordan has it right. Nice salad with a can of water.

From: Boris
29-Aug-19
Bowbender, that is his daily allowance of carbs with his veggies.

29-Aug-19
I can literally eat anything I want.....I won't gain a pound.

From: Owl
29-Aug-19
"Owl, are you saying you can lose weight on a calorie surplus?"

-midwest, I'm specifically stating calorie deficit without first solving hormone disregulation will result in long term failure and worsened physicality. The first step anyone should change relative to food is quality not quantity because the type of food one eats will greatly determine what one does with it- fuel partitioning. For instance, insulin is a hormone that signals fat storage. If you eat a diet that yields a high output of insulin, you will store fat. That can happen even in a calorie restricted diet because the body will catabolize muscle in lieu of fat when insulin is high.

And don't get me wrong. I'm on record above stating, in our current condition of being, we probably cannot perform under intense loads without carbohydrates. But, most people don't need that so they should practically dispense with carbohydrates.

From: midwest
29-Aug-19
"The first step anyone should change relative to food is quality not quantity..."

Agreed!

From: Surfbow
29-Aug-19
"How do you know if someone is on the KETO diet?? They will be sure to tell ya"

They'll also tell you how they CRUSHED IT at crossfit this morning!

From: Darrell
29-Aug-19
Surfbow,

Ha! Other than this post, I haven't told anyone except those asking me how I had lost so much weight.

But I get it. I have had a number of people like that in my circle. :)

From: Owl
29-Aug-19
There are associated cognitive, behavioral and physical improvements in ketosis but, if the folks are not testing glucose fasted and postprandial, all they're really saying is that they are trying to be keto. Frankly, I hate the labels. Very few really eat ketogenically and no one eats "paleo." Shallow words for shallow beings, I reckon. I do know of people who are 100% carnivore so there's veracity in that handle.

SA, you have always been an anomaly. ;)

From: jordanathome
29-Aug-19
Pork steaks and brats with more canned water tonight!

From: APauls
29-Aug-19
I think we've all come to the conclusion that sprinkling of Dot's is; in fact impossible and any diet should assume a healthy dose of Dot's.

From: jordanathome
29-Aug-19
Kinda like there is NO such thing as one beer.......

From: Jordanathome
29-Aug-19

Jordanathome's embedded Photo
Jordanathome's embedded Photo

From: jordanathome
29-Aug-19
My belly is soooo full......need some bourbon to help digest all of this.

From: WapitiBob
29-Aug-19
Darrel, Costco has some decent zero carb stuff; their boiled eggs are an easy snack in camp or added to salad. They have zero carb pepperoni sticks that are good. Their boneless pork shoulder with a good rub on the Traeger is real tasty too.

29-Aug-19
I get a kick out of all of this,,,, I had to go to a agent orange / diabetic class today, one of 4 I take, to lose weight etc, and affects on my body,,,,, most doctors have told me the keto diet is nonsense........

some carbs, mine is no more than 45 a meal, total 130 a day I am doing great,,,, I will listen to world class physicians, before most of the clowns that start all the fad diets

I am cancer free now, I am very lucky,,, my partner is not, so he finally is going on the Honor Flight on the 28th of Sept,,,,,, I love this guy

From: Owl
30-Aug-19
From an evolutionary standpoint, the "fad diet" is the one we been consuming since the turn of the 20th century. Go ahead and throw in any grain-based diets in there since we've only been cultivating for the last 10-12,000 years. That's just a wisp of time in the grand scheme of human development.

ground hunter, Glad to read you are cancer free and I'm grieved your partner is not.

From: SBH
30-Aug-19
Jordan, you tryna warm up your beer or what? Should be in your hand in a coozy!

From: Will
30-Aug-19
Ground Hunter, as owl said, glad your health is progressing, and sending positive energy to your partner. Hope things turn for the better!

31-Aug-19
Owl, a month ago I was in Denali and at the visitor's center, they gave a talk and the biologist said he had an intern follow a large boar around during peak hyperphagia when the berries are blooming and collect all droppings, then collect all scat from a large boar, which they then dissected to count the berries consumed in 24 hours...

Wait for it...

250,000 berries in 24 hours.

I couldn't believe it.

A week later I was in the Brooks and had a good long watch on a very large boar feeding on berries way below me. They just lay on their bellies and push themselves with their hind legs with their mouths open and suck the things up - it's amazing.

Then I got back to civilization and saw the hippos walking around and now I cant look at people without getting the image of people just sucking up food, pushing themselves along with their legs and inhaling...

Modern 21st century diet is not how we're meant to live. I'll stick to my meat and veggies (although I was taking down well over 100 grams of carbs a day while hunting).

From: Owl
31-Aug-19
That's an unfathomable stat, Idyllwild. Quarter of a million berries in 24 hours... Geesh. Brings to mind a blue whale skimming krill by the ton. Good thing bears are up-cyclers and we can enjoy the result of their bingeing in a biologically beneficial way for humans. :)

31-Aug-19
Ike... I watched an obese couple at Walmart feuding over which little Debbie snack cakes their young (fat) daughter could have. I watched this go on right in front of me while I stood in the produce area gathering stuff. I made it a point to take a quick inventory of their buggy (cart to you), and it was FULL of processed foods. frozen pizza, cereals, cookies, potato chips, crackers, bread, etc... you know. I couldn't help but think that this is a cycle handed down from generations prior. It's pretty sad in reality.

From: HH
31-Aug-19
I eat 4-5 meals a day if i can. Mostly eat 3 meals and every hour munch on somethin. If its hot Miller Lite. Now that everyday is a Saturday for me , Miller time is anytime really. Dont eat out at all. No processed crap.

Eat out my garden what i can, I freeze protien wild hog, deer, elk, sheep, moose, boo etc. put up 100lbs of fillets,; marlin, tuna, wahoo, etc.

Live like a Hunter Gatherer. Works.

Run , ruck, lift everyday as ive done for 30+ years.

Last thing i do before elk camp is go Surf for 2-4 weeks somewhere for 3-6hrs a day.

Leaving for surf camp this week. Be back for late bow in ID 19 Sep.

Maitaining good health, strength and fitness is really a daily thing.

Yep

Waldo World and Society is full folks who are eating themselves death everyday.

H

From: DanaC
31-Aug-19
Not all carbs are equal - you want 'complex' carbs for slow steady energy. Whole rains, not refined flour and sugar. Bring some whole grain pasta to elk camp, toss with butter and sprinkle cheese on top. Bake some potatoes in the fire. Bring plenty of gorp to snack on.

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