Contributors to this thread:
the end of PP in Colorado?
Why not? With the point creep of up to 2 points a year, there are units that will never be able to get through the max preference point holders in a lifetime. There are 120 resident applicants with 25 plus points and 650 non residents with 25 points or more. It’s not a sustainable model. Why not dissolve the PP and go to a pure draw? I know it would suck for people with a lot of points, but there are plenty of people with 10-20 points that will never get to hunt the unit they desire anyway!
Maybe use the goat/sheep/moose model? Turn PP into some type of bonus point.
And the top units suck with all the attention they get now.
Because people still believe they can catch it from zero or 10 or 15 or 20 so they keep that HOPE alive lol idk it really is amazing though how many people think they can catch the northwest corner though. I figure I have a better chance at killing a 400” OTC bull than ever drawing the corner.
I wonder what the 2 people with 33 PPs are waiting for.
I think its just a matter of time. I think their gonna have to do a 'use em or lose em' year. And the go to pure draw. I'm sure there will be a lot of pissed off high point holders. But there was nothing that ever stated to point system would last forever. It really has got out of hand.
Brad, they’re waiting for Rocky Mountain National Park it open!
its long over due for a change
X2 Cnelk. 33 points is crazy.. another option is they do what WY does if you don't get a point every year you lose them... I just don't get why anyone would sit on points for even 10 years.. hunt already!!!
For the last 20 Years I have always argued going back to a pure random draw is the best future for colorado. Take everyone with existing PP and weight them exponentially but still use a random draw. It will take sometime to clear the points out, but eventually will be random again.
Or the other option make all elk tags draw only and any tag you draw cost your points...
It's been tossed around on here for years. If they did it, they could give folks 5 years to use them then they wipe the slate clean.
Would be awful for guys who have followed the rules, sacrificed other draw opportunitues and patiently waited. But, that group is way smaller than the bigger group of hunters who may never draw the premium tags the way things are. Probably still wouldn't, but that small chance is a big deal for many.
I think they should stop all the points but if you have points you have 5 years to use them, and you would be aloud to bank them, but at the same time half of the tags should be 100% random like NM, or I’d. Then after 5 years everything is 100% random
Cohoy, that's not quit what WY does.
I thought last year or the year before they changed it to where you have to keep purchasing points or you lose them.. maybe I'm wrong or misunderstood the rules
Love the idea of "luck of the draw" in CO. Works here in NM. It'll work in CO too. However, it begs the question, do all units, all weapon types become draw? Or only the current LE draw units? And how would the residents feel about possibly not getting to hunt their fav OTC spots they hunt every year when they don't draw? Same for NR who hunt OTC every year? Although I seriously doubt that residents give a shit about what NR's think ;)
Give you 5 years to use them and allow you to apply with someone and average them.
Well, one thing is for certain, nothing will happen for the next 5 years.
According to the CPW and the 5 Year BGSS, they could care less about PPs.
How about this... 5 years to use points... but then the system resets every 5 years so essentially, every 6th year, all units are 100% random.. then points for 4 more years then reset again. So point creep would be a non issue and you see guys, specifically younger generation hunters just getting into it get the opportunity for some success and great encounters with good bulls to keep it alive.
Novel idea... You get a tag... you loose your points...even OTC or leftover/return..
Every tag given out, including B list and OTC either should have had a point value in the past. Maybe a B list cow tag would be 1/2 point and OTC either 1 point for instance. Each year you either gain a point in the draw to stash away for a limited draw tag or get your OTC tag with it. This would smooth things out over several years.
Those that invested the time/money should be rewarded when they choose to be. Those who haven’t done the same will continue to seek/scam ways into what others had forethought to get into. It’s pretty much that way with everything in life.
Here we go... the 'invested' argument... hate to break it to you but the preference point system is not an investment nor was it ever guaranteed to last forever. Translation, if you choose to hold onto your points forever and not hunt, there could come a day when they go away.
mike, when people started banking points, unit 10 took 7-8. The point is, they aren’t being rewarded the way they “were supposed to be”. That’s like saying you can buy a car with 100 dollars. What happens when you can no longer buy a car for 100 dollars. You’re forced to change it. There are too many people and not enough resources. I think there are ways to give point holders an advantage, some great ones have been discussed here already. I bet there are Plenty of point holders with 7+ points that would love an “out”.
I think I have 5 or 6 elk pps and every year I go back and forth about burning them. I think I’m stuck right now but don’t think it’s going to get any better. I could’ve had a couple decent LE hunts already.. maybe. Maybe not. Maybe saving up is for the better. Who knows.
An investment is something that guarantees a return. The preference point system in its current state is the exact opposite. I understand how guys with lots of points want to think that they've 'invested' into something. but that's just not what this has become.. its become and endless game of chasing hope.
I’ve used 27 elk PPs over the years and only drew 3 LE units with them.
Enjoyed - not invested - every one of those hunts.
I’m to the point where I’ll start researching a couple attainable units over the next couple of years and burn them. Was late to the party to start. No sense in chasing them down with those kind of numbers ahead of me anymore. Heck, just to get away from the OTC crowds for a year would be enjoyable in itself!
"I wonder what the 2 people with 33 PPs are waiting for."
Maybe the applicants have died and their family keeps applying in their name, not wanting to blow the inheritance on a full price license/tag. Maybe they took up smoking legalized weed and are no longer motivated to get off the couch to hunt?
I have no dog in this fight but I think making all the hunts a draw and losing your points when you draw might help.
Eventually they are going to have to do something and they may as well rip off the band aid...
For archery elk there is probably 5 hunt codes that are unatainable. Probably the same for deer.
Is there really a problem? Maybe what needs to change is the state of mind your in?
Grasshopper. It’s way more than 5. How long until it’s double whatever the number is now? Look at the chart. It’ll keep getting worse. Let’s say you have a 12 year old son or daughter than wants a premium hunt. What’s his/her strategy? Because she was born in 2007, does that mean she should never have a chance Of drawing a premium unit?
I get the point creep issue....and agree something needs to be done about it. That said, I've purchased 12 LE elk points over the past 18 years and drawn 5 tags. Virtually guaranteed to draw every time I've actually applied for a tag. For this NR trying to schedule western hunting trips across multiple states/species, the Colorado preference point system has been a blessing. Just sayin'.....
Yeah, I don't want it to change, I can actually plan vacation and a hunt for me and my wife, I know we will draw our unit next year. We aren't chasing premium units, we've had some pretty premium hunts in low point units! We spend our points as fast as possible! If you want a different point system, put in for a different state.
Can always tell who has recently burned their CO points. The ones wanting to change the system.
Turn all preference points into bonus points, then make it so your points get used when you draw. Make all the OTC draw units as well and it will spread things out a bit.
I'm looking at a 5 point unit for next year. Maybe it will be 6 with point creep from this year. If Colorado were to go to a use your points or lose them, I shutter to think how many points that unit would take then. I have 9, and maybe that's not enough.
I'm a point burner and don't have a dog in this fight. But, since preference points bring a lot of $$$ into the DPW I seriously doubt that they'll do away with the current point-building system.
^^^^ Exactly. Just look at the TOTAL number of NR that applied in chart above and they each spent a minimum of $101 to apply. Thats a lot coin going to the bank
If they do "phase out" the pp system over a few years, I think it would be really interesting if they opened up a "market" for buying and selling preference points. CPW wouldn't sell any additional pp, but they could allow hunters to post what they are willing to buy/sell preference points for and let the market clear any past regrets about buying points or future concerns about not being able to buy points.
Then if you had purchased points, but were never going to catch up to a unit you wanted to hunt, you could recoup some of your cost and sell your points to another hunter. If you were a new hunter and never had a chance to build up points for a top hunt you could still have one shot at the game, it would just take $. If you think both ideas are stupid, just don't participate in the market and use the points you have during the phase out period.
The problem with the "market" idea is then you have people buying points who aren't in it for hunting
We have already commercialized wildlife in CO quite a bit and the effects aren't great.
And the 'Market' idea promotes the HS and other nonhunting groups to purchase them.
Sorry. The Market idea is bad and aint gonna happen.
And before this year, the cost of getting a PP was peanuts - $3! Recoup costs??? WTF
BC is all random draw. If you draw a moose your odds are cut in half for the next year. "Reduced Odds" is also applied to Roosevelt elk also I believe, never drew one so never looked.
I have very bad luck in the draws, but still think it's the best system. But draws should be run in at least January or earlier.
Another scheme that would solve the PP problem, is to make the NW corner irrelevant. Totally limit all elk tags, and severely restrict their numbers. After a few years, ALL of Colorado would have GREAT elk hunting, and folks would HAVE to use their points to hunt. Of course, like ALL the other ideas, you piss someone off.
But really, no one has suggested addressing the REAL problem. There are way too many people on this planet. As long as that continues, hunting, and many other outdoor activities will continue to be degraded, and decline. Get used to it.
I love the idea of a 5 year reset. Every 6th year being 100% random.
As for those saying the ones wanting the system to change are those who just cashed in... That is not true, it is virtually anyone with knowledge of the issue. I believe that most if not all people would favor a different system when you get into details.
Grasshopper, the issue is a much larger issue that just a handful of units. Yes they are the ones way out, but it is getting much worse. We have seen cow tags jump from 100% draw, to 50% with no points to now it takes 2 points. Deer units are creeping all the time. My home unit used to be 100% with random, but now it requires 4 points. Think about that for a bit. While I agree you have hunt options, it is really sad to have units where your family has hunted for generations out of reach for your kids.
I always go back to the idea that every single person every year should have the exact same opportunity as everyone else/ My 12 year old daughter should have the same opportunity as my 65 year old father.
Hence the reason why I am so excited to be WY resident...
I could go for a all draw system....no OTC. Something needs to change but we all know the almighty $$$ rules the day.
I never could understand why someone that gets a tag ( any way) can still have points. Also how you don’t have to apply every year to keep your points.
Or... they stop issuing points for 5 to 10 years.. and in that time if you don't apply for an elk license, you lose your points. This would potentially impact point creep and could weed out the guys just gathering points.
I think the common denominator is that system is broken as it is and steps need to be implemented to mitigate it and correct it going forward
I’ve heard a lot of good and bad ideas, but selling points is the worst.
The only way to make it the most fair for everyone, IMO, is to just turn preference points into bonus points and put the entire state on a draw.
Another option is to turn preference points into bonus points for units that cost over a certain value like 10, which allows people to plan and burn, but doesn’t completely pull the rug out from under the high point holders while still giving the kid born in 2007 a chance to draw a tag before age 85.
The current system is not sustainable based on simple math.
Guess I really don’t know what to think, but JMO, putting ALL archery tags on a draw seems the worst of the worst.
OTOH, that’s the way it has always been for ML season.
JMO, the problem isn’t too few tags, it’s too many Bowhunters. The point creep didn’t become a Thing until fairly recently, right?
It’d be interesting to see how fast this “point creep” has accelerated over time. Going to guess that OTC cow-only tags are involved, but I’d bet that the points required to draw the best Archery tags would plummet like a heavy arrow launched off of a cliff if they were to ban expandable heads, releases and electronic rangefinders in Archery Season.
Before all those things became Standard Equipment, Randy Ulmer was quoted in an article saying that his maximum hunting range was about 35 yards. And he may have been using a release, actually.... It was an article about his hunt for a desert bighorn, IIRC.... just in case somebody has a stack of old magazines around and wants to fact check me. It was back when he was regularly coming out as Top Dog on the pro Archery tour....
Anyway, I’ll betcha a nickel there aren’t many “Hard-Core Bowhunters” who would “burn” a dozen pref points on a tag that limited them to a 35-yard weapon.....
I’d assume that CDOW keeps very close track of success rates in those units, and the point-hoarders are probably waiting for X% chances of a Y-hundred inch bull.
The problem is that they don’t want the Hunt.... they just want the Trophy.
Making ALL Elk tags by draw only punishes those who just want to be able to hunt, same as making a cow tag available to someone who can buy a bull tag later on punishes those who want to be able to hunt archery season in relative solitude.
Point creep has been an issue for 20 years. My occasional rifle pronghorn unit used to take 5 points, reliably. Now it takes 16-17. In 2013 we barely caught Unit 2 archery elk with 18.
IMO, the demand for the few premium units has increased as the quality of OTC hunting has decreased due to crowding. As long as CO remains the "fall-back" state for everybody in the country and people can still hunt every year while accumulating points, ceeep will continue. There are fewer hunters in the country, but thanks to social media and other services, hunting the west has become easier, and DIY hunting especially.
I still believe a 10 year point-banking system would eventually level things out, but it would require more draw units, would be chaos for a number of years until the system sorts itself out. It was tried once but not long enough to get any real metrics.
Clarification=an investment does NOT guarantee a return! Or everyone playing the market or futures would be winners every year. An investment does allow you to play the game in HOPE of a positive return. Get rid of PP’s anyway you can. Make it so everyone has a level playing field...in all states.
I'll believe it when I see it. CO has been stuck for a while and no political will to change it.
Here are two REASONABLE ways to help address PP and crowding. Stop selling PP. You only accumulate them by actually applying for a unit as first choice. May not help much, but it would force the high point holders to $hit or get off the pot. Let NR buy OTC tags, but only at the time of the draw. If they really want to hunt CO, fine, but stop them from using us as their fall back option if they don't draw elsewhere.
I gotta say I don’t care for that option, Ziek - I have never known ‘til the last minute if I was going to make it out AT ALL or not, and at least once I’ve “eaten” a tag that never made it out of the envelope.
Limited Draw is a game that I guess I don’t have the money or interest to play; sure would be nice to see the rules flex to make it so that point creep need not become an issue for those who just want to be able to hunt OTC to begin with.
If you want to suggest making it so that you have to buy your OTC at the time of the drawing IF YOU HAVE ACCUMULATED PREF POINTS FOR THAt SEASON/WEAPON, then I’m OK with that angle, as long as an Archery Pref point is an Archery point and a Rifle Point is a Rifle Point.
I'm glad it will not change for another 5 years as I should have used my points by then. It is an investment, I don't care if you think it is not.
My solution covers people who want to be able to hunt any bull or either otc, it's 1 point. Problem solved. It also stops most of the point creep. OTC guys get to hunt OTC every year and point savers get to save points for the unit they are after. Seems pretty easy and CPW still gets the same revenue in app fees if not more due to having to apply for the OTC point. Reissue tags could have a minimum point requirement or a point auction feature.
I am definitely not in favor of doing away with preference points and I've never had more than two or three elk points. l get it people want to draw a NW corner unit without a long wait. I've got news for you. The wait will be even longer for most if preference points aren't used. You may even get to enjoy hearing about somebody drawing two or three times while you wait a lifetime and never draw.
There are many limited draw hunts that are easy to draw. The reason they are easy is that those NW units and a few others are soaking up all the applicants and point creep like a sponge. People don't want to miss out on adding a point every year. They would rather have a point than a hunt. I hunt every year and usually kill a big bull. The last thing I want is some of those would be NW corner hunters applying for other hunts. Without points the NW corner would still be pretty much unattainable but a lot of easy draws would become much more difficult.
As the owner of 14 points, I would like to see it abolished. The only fair system is a true lottery system. My kids would never get to hunt Colorado, at least a decent unit. Any NR with less than 22 points will never get to hunt the NW corner under current system, and that is about everyone. I like the 5 year reset. I think it makes people scrutinize the units they put in for. If the gamble big, and don't win, they lose it all. Otherwise, they can really apply themselves to a less known unit. Or, a waiting period for successful applicants in a NO points system. Idaho has a 2 year waiting period, and I'd like to see it more like 4 years.
I think there are a few issues at hand that everyone has touched on..1. Point creep. 2. CO being the last resort for poor planners or folks that didn't draw in other states. 3. Excessive amount of points out there held by some people. 4. over crowding in OTC units. 5. did I mention point creep.. I personally believe that #1 and #5 and #3 are directly linked.. You have guys that have been holding points for 20+ years and keep chasing units that keep getting further and further away, then one day they wake up and say shit, I'm getting too old for this crap and drop their 20 points on a 7pt unit... a vicious circle... And let me circle back to the whole 'investment' thing.. exactly what are you investing in?? the CPWs coffers? Because the unit you were going after years ago, I am willing to bet, your still going after b/c each year, you missed it by one point.. I guess personally I don't understand why anyone would hold on for years and I don't mean 2 or 3 or even 5 but 20+ years, damn why??? there are plenty of good units you could have hunting 3 or 4 times in 20 years.. And again, there was never any rule that stated the current preference point system would remain and one day it will change.. So, I guess I would suggest.. hunt or get off the pot or you're gonna be left an 'investment' that turned into a lot of years of shoulda coulda woulda.. a lot of years you could have had good quality fun hunts instead of not hunting b/c you were 'investing'.. I sincerely hope you're not using the same investment planner for your retirement funds as you are for your hunting investments... just sayin....
All the nonsense about needing more hunter recruitment!
Missouri, didn’t you know elk hunting is a dying sport. In a couple years nobody will even be in the woods!
Nobody elk hunts anymore because it's too crowded........................
It is fair for everyone. If you want a 2,10,201 tag you need to apply for 30yrs. Put your kids in the draw so they can start accumulating points. Maybe they draw someday, maybe they don't. As someone with 18 or 19 pp's for sheep, moose, and goat I hate the change they made with the computer generated random number nonsense.
“Put your kids in the draw so they can start accumulating points. Maybe they draw someday, maybe they don't.“
Dirk, it’s not a maybe. It’s a definite NO at this point. The math is there and has been done over and over again. It’s really not that difficult of an equation to figure out. I agree something really needs to be done with this broken system. Makes sense to phase out the PP program over 10 yrs or so. On the minimum Any OTC tag holder should not be able to accumulate a point. They should also allow point sharing and I believe at least 20% of all LE tags should be reserved for a random draw similar to Wyoming. It’s not an immediate fix to the entire system but it’s a step in the right direction. If they decide to keep OTC in Colorado it should be draw for non residents and should be broken down by a zone system such as Idaho. That would at least spread out the pressure a bit. There’s many options and solutions to this problem but to simply do nothing and keep status quo is foolish. It’s broken! Let’s work to fix it.
You better hope scoped crossbows never become legal for all hunters during archery seasons in Colorado. If they do become legal, you will see even more point creep as these non bow and arrow hunters head west to participate in the archery seasons. Technology and easier harvesting adds to the point creep, quota seasons and expansion of limited draw areas in the west. By the way, hunters earned this trend.
Next year I’ll use my PP and be done with the PP money grab. The money I save there will allow me to help pay for the ever increasing OTC tag.
If you want to hunt the NW corner wait your turn.
lungshot, nobody accumulates points forever, we all die at some point. Start early enough, live long enough, you will draw. Start late, die young, you won't. Everybody has the shot they create.
“You better hope scoped crossbows never become legal for all hunters during archery seasons in Colorado. If they do become legal, you will see even more point creep as these non bow and arrow hunters head west to participate in the archery seasons. Technology and easier harvesting adds to the point creep, quota seasons and expansion of limited draw areas in the west. By the way, hunters earned this trend.”
Yep, by allowing releases, rangefinders, and bows that can be held at full draw by resting the bottom cam on your thigh. Wanna Make Bowhunting Great Again? Turn it back into a short-range proposition. Just like all ML tags have ALWAYS been draw-only and it used to be that a bull tag needed a PP to draw. Why? Because 80-100 yard weapons.
Social media and YouTube have done 1000x more to attract bowhunters to the West, especially elk hunters, than compound bow ever did. Compounds were in heavy use long before the explosion happened.
If compounds were outlawed people would still take long shots with resources. Always been that way.
Couldn’t agree more. The “Backrub Outdoors Crew” (as Cnelk calls them) has definitely brought hoards of hunters out west. I’m all for hunter recruitment but it needs to be managed, limited and resident hunters should be given priority over the non residents.
A simple solution might be that if you draw a point for a species you can’t hunt for that species that year. A preference point should be a consolation prize for not drawing and being able to hunt. As it is now most people put in for a point then go hunt an over the counter unit which was their intention anyway. This wouldn’t completely solve the problem but it would reduce point creep a bit without screwing the current point holders
I think archery participation expanded dramatically in the 1970's, 80's and 90's . This due to the compound bow and hunter interest, as well as resource exploitation in the various media.
Anyone tossing ideas out needs to keep this in mind: If the idea reduces revenue to the CPW it will face opposition.
From a business revenue perspective, I would significantly raise prices, especially to non residents.
Glunt... you are correct. I am betting they come up with some creative pricing structures to offset any potential revenue loss
I moved out of Colorado to a state with no points system and free harvest tags. Lots to learn
This topic is not on the radar of the wildlife commission. In bgss the purposely avoided it. A lot of talk going nowhere. No problem with talk, but realize the rule makers have no plans to bring it up.
Grasshopper, I would imagine there aren’t a ton of issues on their radar that would require change without adding more money to their BPOM (big pot of money). That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t talk about it. If they keep down the road they’re on and then add some wolves that BPOM isn’t going to be able to pay for their trails and fish farms.
Hoping my PP come to an end next year elk and sheep then I am done.
How about being able to average your points?
I agree with some of the comments above, if you really want to fix it you can't have people hunt OTC and get a point in the same year. For a NR that spends $500-600 on an OTC elk tag, why would they not throw in another marginal amount of money to get a point that will help bring about a "better" future elk hunt.
Even Utah finally figured it out with their general deer draw that you can't allow people to build points and hunt every year, it gets unsustainable in a hurry.
Blaming compounds for this situation is flatly stupid. They were invented in - what - the 1960's, and it was not until the 2000's that the western hunting hunting bug really caught on. It was Huntin' Fool and Eastmans that made it easy for easterners to learn about western hunting opportunities and then the internet accelerated it. That is when the flood gates opened.
Case and point, we were drawing Arizona bull tags every 2-3 years in the 1990's (back to back once) and I am now going on 10 years since my last tag.
^^^ Agree 100% with this. This easterner has bowhunted since my teenage years, which dates back to the 70's. It was the internet, more specifically Bowsite, that got the western hunting drive churning for me. Started building points in the late 90's and have drawn every tag that I set out to draw in those early years. Point creep wasn't even much of a concern until after the turn of the century.
I think any technology helping to make meeting archery harvest objectives contributes. That is why it is important scoped crossbows "for all " should be kept from the western archery seasons. Archery was designed to be a short range proposition, now animals are " routinely" killed at longer ranges such as 50 plus yards. This is common, it did not use to be. Yes, some animals were always killed at long ranges, but the " routine killing distance " has been extending with tech advancements.
Totally agree it's not the bow that made it easier it. It's the Internet bottom line. You go to any hunting forums and there are unlimited amounts of information on all the western states. Yes, I do agree some people shoot long distance shots now days at animals. IMO if this information wasn't available on the internet you wouldn't have the masses of hunters.
Bottom line is CO needs to go to a draw for nonresidents with limited amount of tags. Like stated in a lot of the post responders CO is always a fall back for elk when they don't draw another western state.
I'm not sure if the CO state game dept wants to go this route because it generates a lot of revenue for the state.
I have 16pts for elk and in no mans land except for a few units. I started applying when my dad was alive so maybe he could go during the muzzleloader season. I'm very fortunate and live in WY so I can get an elk license every year.
Bottom line is CO needs to decide what direction they want to go!
So 90 to 95% of the hunters coming out west use compound bows, but that has not contributed to the rise in western hunters? That is flatly stupid, of course it did. Making bowhunting easier for the masses, i.e. technology with compound bows, is a main factor. If it was stickbows only, you would have way less hunters. It is just a kneejerk defense because most guys shoot compounds, so the truth hurts. Personally dont care what a guy shoots, but get real. Not the only factor, but a major one.
the increase in interest in western hunting,,,heck all sorts of "travel hunts" has much to do with a society with more time and money to do vacations that cost
yes, internet helped - but before that we had hunting magazines that glorified western and northern hunting,,,heck I dreamed of hunting out west since I first read Outdoor Life in 1972 as a 10 year old kid,,,but couldn't do it till I had time and money,,,
Knifecobbler-You would not have less hunters without compound bows. You would have less people during archery season. While I agree that compounds have increased the number of bowhunters, if they never would have been invented the most guys hunting with compounds today would be out with the sticks. The success rate would be a lot lower but they would still be trying to draw tags.
The only thing that would be different without compounds, is you'd have guys figuring out how to build and become proficient with an 80lb recurve...
Seriously? Compound bows don't publish hundreds of articles on where to go and how to hunt the West. Compound bows don't produce hundreds of heavily edited DVDs and YouTube videos. Compound bows have never, ever started a thread on an internet forum. Compound bows don't operate tag application services. I've never known of a compound bow to lease a ranch, then advertise heavily about the elk opportunities, produce infomercials that pose as "hunting shows" on three different outdoor channels. Compounds have nothing to do with the big "Boomer Bubble" of those who have time and disposable income to hunt like they never did before.
Blaming compound bows for the explosion in Western hunting demand is like blaming Bic lighters for the rise in pot smoking. "If everybody had to use paper matches..."
To Knife Cobbler's last point, if travel was restricted to horse and buggy only, we'd have a hell of a lot fewer hunters from the East amd Midwest flooding our mountains and tag creep would be nonexistent.
Technology is only part of the equation. If technology advancements, including in compound bows truly have had no impact , then may as well open the archery seasons to the crossbow, just another 15% let off.
The same reliable few always like to blame the compound amd technology for the downfall of all things good about bowhunting.
You are right in that, if the compound was never invented or was suddenly outlawed, there'd be far, far fewer archery hunters. Nearly all would revert to guns. A few would carry on hunting with a stick and being really bad at it.
Pope and Young could get back to its "Roots". Maybe they could have a good, old fashioned (record) book burning. Cleanse the records.
The woods would be quite for the few people in the few places and for the few days that archery would still be allowed. No numbers, no strength, no special archery seasons.
Leather fringed jacket and wool sales may remain steady, but that industry probably wouldn't have much pull to lobby governments for more archery seasons like compound producers.
More gun hunters would mean more dead animals which would in turn would reduce allowable harvest and further decrease your odds of hunting.
Fifty years ago, very few people went on international vacations or had a "sun holiday" every winter. Now it's the norm 'cause it's cheap and easy. Same with hunting.
Instead of blaming compounds for ruining your hunting opportunities, you should be thanking them. Without the shear numbers, you'd be entirely irrelevant.
If you feel very strongly, as a traditional archer, that you have a special place, then as a group lobby for stick only seasons. See how far you get. Compounds archers will obviously fight back, so expect active opposition.
There are some very dedicated stick archers on here, guys that I respect tremendously for the love of their craft. The same guys I'd respect if they were gun hunters. "It's the Indian, not the bow".
But there's a few more that are totally convinced of their own moral superiority, based solely on weapon choice.
Those few can just GF themselves.
I think if people had to hunt with stick bows or compounds from the 80's, without releases and all the new gadgets, there would be a LOT less people bow hunting the west. Change my mind.
How can a discussion about the preference point problem devolve into compound bows are the root of all evil? See above. (My brain hurts from too many hard left turns!)
I'm not so selfish that I wouldn't be willing to give up being able to draw a tag every year so that others could experience the joy I've had bowhunting the west. A small sacrifice to help keep our numbers strong and introduce others to the bowhunting lifestyle.
Compound bows are the root of all evil and if you have an all black bow like I do it is now classified as an 'assault compound bow' and is under attack because it looks scary
Nobody is blaming compound bows as the sole reason for increased archery season participation AND success. As others stated, media plays a huge role. But, to say the advanced compound bows have no impact on archery season participation, and ease of harvest... is simply not true.
This year alone, I have been with five compound bowhunters when they killed their elk. All were shot with range finders first, then killed with an arrow. Yards, 38, 42, 47, 48, and 58. No wounds but one required a follow up shot.
Increased desire to hunt during archery seasons, and ease to meet harvest objectives both play a role in point creep. The compound bow affects these components, which incidentally is why bow hunters use them.
^ ^ ^ Would those elk be dead with guns and no range finder?
Funny. With all the advancements in archey gear, why hasn’t the overall archery success increased?
OK, who wouldn't want to go hunt in the Land of Legends where the likes of Paul@thefort, Jaq, cnelk, Ermine, Rock, Treeline and a big handful of others like them tread the mountains. THOSE guys are responsible for the yearly influx of neophytes.
Technology hasn't increased success rates but it has increased participation rates immensely. Its been good and bad. It grew bowhunting which helped establish seasons, created a bigger industry and gave bowhunting a bigger voice. It also increased competition for tags and created land access/crowding issues.
It isn't all bad or all good.
I thought this post was about PP. I just came back from a Colorado hunt and most of the NR I talked to said that being in the mountains was there first priority, getting an elk 2nd. Colorado is a big tourist destination spot even without the elk hunting.
Holy knee jerk batman. Typical. Someone stated the reason behind the problem this was technology, media etc. I have a different opinion and a few post later some says go fuck yourself? right back at you ambush, and your ilk.
Pretty simple really. Im talking numbers of guys hunting and applying in the west, get it? Guys would go out west with the stickbow limitations, get sick of missing and blowing chances because they are limited, and quit. Im talking general bowhunting public, not the bowsite faithful. They are the 5 percenters. Most general bowhunters could not consistantly get into close range of elk and seal the deal, hence the need for long range accuracy. Compound technology fills that void. Again, not the typical bowsiters, they are bowhunting gods.
Its like stating that more animals are wounded with compounds than stickbows, oh the gf yourselfs I would get then. Of course its true, its a numbers thang.
All this means nothing to me anymore, after a dozen tries and old age, im done with Colorado and elk. Last unit 20 tag I drew, I ran into 18 bowhunters the first day, and had someone ride past me on a motorcycle, twice in the national forest. Every wallow and waterhole I hunted previously had a camera and a ground blind buy it. ok, ok I give. I know good riddance.
"Holy knee jerk batman" Irony much?
Actual Cobbler you said, in affect, anybody that didn't agree with you was "...flatly stupid".
And GF is a member.
Interesting, Cobbler, that unit 20 has limited tags so the number of hunters in that unit isn't increasing year over year. Wonder why the few hunters who drew tags were all hunting in "your" spots?
“There are way too many people on this planet. As long as that continues, hunting, and many other outdoor activities will continue to be degraded, and decline. Get used to it.”
Ziek, this is something NOBODY is willing to have discussions about how to close it down. And this ultimately is the real reason behind a lot of issues in the world such as food, water, energy, pollution, etc etc, and will lead to our eventual demise in my opinion.
Like it or not, the advent of the modern (high tech) compound bow, rangefinders, videos, social media, gps, atv, electric bikes, cell cameras, now crossbows, etc. etc. have ALL contributed to the increased demand and costs for Western hunting, Alaskan hunting, whitetail hunting, etc. This demand has also driven up land prices in quality hunting areas. I don't like the trend, but it is not going away. The mystique around all hunting has been largely unveiled and diminished by technology. There are very, very few of us not benefitting from the technology aspect if we are really honest with ourselves.
As far as PP - I believe that a draw should give everyone an equal chance of getting a permit. If a person can draw only one in every ten years by regulation, so be it. The game is a public resource, and it almost seems to me like PP begin to privatize it. Want to preserve and enhance the resource - make every area a draw area. Obviously residents would rightfully have more permits allocated that NR, but make them all a draw. Just my $0.02.
I think this is a perfect time to ask about Unit 49! I am thinking about dropping my 7 points on it next year.. Anyone that can provide any starting points!? Not looking for honey holes.. lol
COHOYTHUNTER - I recently saw a post from PECO asking about 49. He said he has hunted it. :)
And for the record, PECO has 9 points. PECO didn't ask for any starting points, he asked how the hunting was this season. PECO spent some years in Leadville, and has his own honey holes. PECO is also not butt hurt, and understands anyone asking any question about any GMU will get some back lash.
didnt say they were my spots, read the post. spots that were previously hunted? Jesus Jacquomo, you have a serious chip on your shoulder. Nope ambush, just you.
And Cnelk for the win! Again, The stats are there and speak for themselves.
But yeah.... compounds! Definitely the problem. And Russians. Can’t leave them out!
Thanks Cobbler for pointing out that I’m stupid. Recognizing a problem is half way to fixing it.
No chip on my shoulder. I'm thoroughly self-actualized. Just have a problem with trad snobs who blame technology for all of bowhunting's woes, and I'm happy to call out the hypocrisy and BS. And just so you know, I've shot and hunted with longbows and recurves for 56 years. Trad snobs give serious trad hunters a bad name.
Actually, in my domain most guys pass on animals less than a good 6x6. That leads to unfilled tags. Trophy hunting tends to skew the success rates and is mostly done because bow hunting is much easier today than pre compound. Some due to technology, advanced archery weapons, and travel, some due to game management.
If one truly believes bow hunting is not easier today please review the book entries, and the old Fred Bear photos of his kills.
And, why did so many abandon the stickbow for the compound, and then purchase the compound advancements? That would be a total waste of money if one did not feel there was an advantage. What about crossbows, no advantage?
“ Most general bowhunters could not consistantly get into close range of elk and seal the deal, hence the need for long range accuracy. Compound technology fills that void. Again, not the typical bowsiters, they are bowhunting gods.”
Small fractions of society must band with like mind individuals to gain a larger voice. That’s why your LGBT, abortionist, and anti hunters are voting for one party. If they all can be accepting of their differences why we splitting hairs. You get to choose your weapon so make sure that your skills are suited for Such aspiration. The lack of inclusivity is why hunters are perpetually losing the long game.
yea jaq we know, you are the greatest trad virtue signaler ever. Your opinion means more than everyone elses, your trad bonifides are legendary. Again knee jerks, tell me where I ripped on compounds, anytime or anywhere?? How the hell do you now what I shoot for a bow? Stating facts or opinions is not ripping. Read my original post, I already stated off the bat "personally I DONT CARE WHAT A GUY SHOOTS " chose to ignore, or see red and knee jerk, which one is it?
I agree compounds, sights, and trigger releases certainly filled the void in accuracy at traditional distances. But compounds also at least doubled the effective range, and reduced the requirements for practice. Scoped crossbows will improve on all of these variables. Do we need scoped crossbows in the west to fill the void of long range, say 50 yard plus accuracy, thus reducing wounding ? I think not.
How about a few primitive zones? Archery = no sights, releases, long bow only. Muzzleloaders = percussion and smooth bore, round ball. Either no rifle, or lever action, open sights.
I don't think it'll change because of ... money
“Actually, in my domain most guys pass on animals less than a good 6x6. That leads to unfilled tags. Trophy hunting tends to skew the success rates and is mostly done because bow hunting is much easier today than pre compound. Some due to technology, advanced archery weapons, and travel, some due to game management. If one truly believes bow hunting is not easier today please review the book entries, and the old Fred Bear photos of his kills.“
Cmon Missouri, maybe your camp is elite enough to pass on legal elk in general units because they just don’t quite fit the bill of whatever criteria you’ve set for yourselves but the general hunting public isn’t passing on elk because they’re not a “big six” or because “that cow” has a calf with her. I’m sure this happens in LE units plenty but the tag numbers in these units are minuscule compared to all of the otc and general unit hunters out there. No way that enough legal elk are passed every year to make any significant difference in the overall archery success rates throughout the US.
Yes, I believe it’s true that shooting a compound has its advantages over trad equipment. There’s no question about that... but the data is there and relevant which shows that archery success rates have remained generally the same since the 80s and 90s. If anything it gives guys a false sense ability where they “think” they can make that 50yard shot and ends up wounding an animal. I guarantee the majority of compound bow kills are 40 yards and under probably even less than that. I know several guys who have and do make 30 yrd shots with trad gear which I’d be willing to bet is close to the average shot distance with compounds.
Here’s a small sample survey from a few years ago.
I agree with Grasshopper, this is not helping influence any decisions within the CPW. The pp creep is about individual choices.
Ucsdryder just a heads up but rifling and the in-line action both predate percussion muzzleloaders. Also the whitworth rifles from the 1850s were capable at ranges the best of the west drools over.
I like that idea of lever action open sights! And smooth bore flint lock muskets
How about start two pools, one resident, one nonresident, based on percentage of tags allocated to each now. Put all tags on draw and sell leftovers as OTC
Each pool is now a random draw. Everybody enters one application. But applicants get their entries multiplied by however many points they currently have and no more will accrue.
If you have thirty points, upon entry your "single" application is now entered as thirty entries. Same all done the line. Point holders still get a better chance according to points held. Put a timeline on when all points will be void.
The reality is that the CPW could care less about point creep. Points bring revenue. The more the merrier. They have no incentive to change the current system. Whether it takes 24 points to hunt the NW units or 4 points makes no difference to the decision makers and bean counters.
What are you guys think In pulling all your points together for one and done one species in Colorado
I'm about officially cashed out on PP for elk, deer and pronghorn. Been applying first choice for easy elk tags lately and cashed in 13 deer points on a 1 point unit this year. I have no desire anymore to bank points for years. I'll still be in the game trying for tags and having a few points now and then depending on the year, but the fun of waiting for a good tag isn't there for me anymore.
Not buying anymore points for sheep goat or moose.
Marhewsphone, I'd take that option in a heart beat.
Glunt, I've been considering the same thoughts. I'm not ready to throw in the towel on goat or moose yet. I'm curious, how did that 1 point unit work out?
Get rid of PP? If I could sell something "extra" with almost zero cost incurred, I'm selling, and overselling if I can. Simply put, they are putting it to all of us and its probably not gonna change. I am just glad that if a guy wants to afford to hunt he can. Imagine an auction system. With a private broker even. That is what I would do if I had the supply and demand that CO does. Sometimes changing a so so system results in a terribly poor one replacing it. Especially when a government is involved. I am kinda glad the system is not worse really as sad as that may sound.
"Imagine an auction system. With a private broker". This is exactly what CO did by pulling tags out of the resident general draw pool in many units and giving them to outfitters to sell on the open market. Because many, if not most of these vouchers go to NRs, the CPW increased revenue, the outfitters makes money on the voucher and the hunt, NRs who can afford it get to hunt every year, and its a win-win for everybody. Except resident hunters, but we are basically an annoyance, it seems.
The interesting thing is that in some units it requires more points for a landowner/outfitter to draw a voucher now than for an ordinary hunter to draw the same tag. Market forces at work...
Winded, I'll let you know in a few weeks how my 1 point unit goes. It's a plains tag. Nice private spot but it looks like access will be gone after this year. Was planning on using points somewhere else and then start hunting there but things changed and I want to hunt it at least once.
Lou do they have to draw the vouchers or are they auctioned? Just curios I am not nearly as informed as I should be. I do feel for the local folks who have to watch the resources being sold out from under them.
OTC tag= 1 pt. Pops this balloon and will give young hunters a chance at the premier units.
Landowners have to draw the vouchers. Then they can do with them as they please. The hunter who then buys the voucher must purchase a license from the CPW at the resident or nonresident price. The voucher is good for the entire unit, public and private land, not just the landowner's property. But permission to hunt the property is a part of the voucher agreement.
Number of vouchers is determined by amount of land owned, but are capped at 19 per species (weird number...). As with regular tags, sometimes they can get vouchers with second choice (doe pronghorn, for instance) and keep building points for buck tags. If they manage it right, they can "ladder" preference points so they can draw some coveted tags to sell every year.
I do all the voucher apps for my rancher friend who lets me bowhunt. He qualifies for 19 apps. Every January we have a strategy meeting to figure out how many "for sure" vouchers he wants for family and friends (doe deer and antelope, maybe two or three October buck vouchers that will cost two points) and how many PP-only apps to submit for the laddering. He doesnt outfit, so he isn't overhunting or overkilling bucks, but in two years he will have enough points to get some buck pronghorn vouchers to sell and a couple December muley buck vouchers, which can bring a good price. With point laddering, he should be able to draw those tags every year going-forward, if he is careful.
I had no idea that was the way that worked. Thanks for taking a minute to educate me. Kinda like the system weighted towards a land owner but seems a little unfair that the tags/licenses can be used on public land having such an advantage for gaining points. Curios how many acres does it take to get 19 voucher apps and is all land considered equal?
This whole thread about PPs is like the Seinfeld sitcom - a whole lotta talk about nuthin
11,500 acres is the max that will ensure 19 apps. That doesn't mean 19 guaranteed vouchers, unless the landowner has a bunch of laddered PPs. My friend just started doing this a couple years ago (he has 40,000 acres) and doesn't have enough points to draw buck rifle pronghorn or December buck deer. It would be easier for me to draw buck rifle pronghorn out of the general draw, because vouchers to sell to NRs are in more demand since access is very limited - the entire unit is private land and almost everything big enough to hold animals is leased to outfitters.
The land is required to hold the given species for a certain period every year. I don't remember the exact requirement but the local WCO is engaged with the CPW voucher manager to determine land eligibility. The first time we enrolled the acreage the WCO actually sat at the kitchen table with us and helped navigate the process. He helped again when it was time to fill out the paper applications after the land was approved.