Michigan Baiting???
General Topic
Contributors to this thread:
Missouribreaks 07-Nov-19
Grey Ghost 07-Nov-19
NoWiser 07-Nov-19
JL 07-Nov-19
Pete In Fairbanks 07-Nov-19
JTV 07-Nov-19
craigmcalvey 07-Nov-19
Feedjake 07-Nov-19
rodb 07-Nov-19
buckhammer 07-Nov-19
hunt'n addict 07-Nov-19
c5ken 07-Nov-19
craigmcalvey 08-Nov-19
scott7030 08-Nov-19
JL 08-Nov-19
drycreek 08-Nov-19
JL 08-Nov-19
BIG BEAR 08-Nov-19
JL 08-Nov-19
BIG BEAR 08-Nov-19
Missouribreaks 09-Nov-19
GF 09-Nov-19
BIG BEAR 09-Nov-19
Ambush 09-Nov-19
Shoe 09-Nov-19
JL 09-Nov-19
JTV 09-Nov-19
JL 09-Nov-19
GF 09-Nov-19
BIG BEAR 09-Nov-19
BIG BEAR 09-Nov-19
BIG BEAR 09-Nov-19
sitO 09-Nov-19
Ambush 09-Nov-19
Ambush 09-Nov-19
BIG BEAR 09-Nov-19
GF 09-Nov-19
BIG BEAR 09-Nov-19
Missouribreaks 09-Nov-19
GF 09-Nov-19
JTV 09-Nov-19
JTV 09-Nov-19
GF 09-Nov-19
JTV 09-Nov-19
BIG BEAR 09-Nov-19
BIG BEAR 09-Nov-19
JTV 09-Nov-19
sitO 09-Nov-19
BIG BEAR 09-Nov-19
BIG BEAR 09-Nov-19
Michael 09-Nov-19
JTV 09-Nov-19
BIG BEAR 09-Nov-19
JTV 09-Nov-19
BIG BEAR 09-Nov-19
JTV 09-Nov-19
BIG BEAR 09-Nov-19
JTV 09-Nov-19
BIG BEAR 09-Nov-19
JTV 09-Nov-19
RK 09-Nov-19
JTV 09-Nov-19
RK 09-Nov-19
Missouribreaks 10-Nov-19
BIG BEAR 10-Nov-19
BIG BEAR 10-Nov-19
JL 10-Nov-19
Missouribreaks 10-Nov-19
Russ Koon 10-Nov-19
Kevin Dill 10-Nov-19
BIG BEAR 10-Nov-19
GF 10-Nov-19
ground hunter 10-Nov-19
ground hunter 10-Nov-19
itshot 10-Nov-19
Ambush 10-Nov-19
Missouribreaks 10-Nov-19
ground hunter 10-Nov-19
Ambush 10-Nov-19
sitO 10-Nov-19
Ambush 10-Nov-19
JTV 10-Nov-19
Ambush 10-Nov-19
JTV 10-Nov-19
Ambush 11-Nov-19
JTV 11-Nov-19
BIG BEAR 11-Nov-19
Missouribreaks 11-Nov-19
320 bull 11-Nov-19
RK 11-Nov-19
ground hunter 11-Nov-19
JL 11-Nov-19
K Cummings 11-Nov-19
Grey Ghost 11-Nov-19
Ambush 11-Nov-19
Grey Ghost 11-Nov-19
Ambush 11-Nov-19
GF 11-Nov-19
BIG BEAR 11-Nov-19
Cornpone 11-Nov-19
K Cummings 11-Nov-19
Bou'bound 11-Nov-19
Grey Ghost 11-Nov-19
Missouribreaks 11-Nov-19
Ambush 11-Nov-19
K Cummings 11-Nov-19
BIG BEAR 11-Nov-19
JTV 11-Nov-19
Missouribreaks 11-Nov-19
JTV 11-Nov-19
Missouribreaks 11-Nov-19
Missouribreaks 11-Nov-19
Grey Ghost 11-Nov-19
BIG BEAR 11-Nov-19
Grey Ghost 11-Nov-19
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timex 11-Nov-19
ground hunter 11-Nov-19
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Ambush 12-Nov-19
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BIG BEAR 12-Nov-19
Grey Ghost 12-Nov-19
Bowfinatic 12-Nov-19
Missouribreaks 12-Nov-19
BIG BEAR 12-Nov-19
K Cummings 12-Nov-19
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Matte 12-Nov-19
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BIG BEAR 12-Nov-19
Grey Ghost 12-Nov-19
K Cummings 12-Nov-19
K Cummings 12-Nov-19
BIG BEAR 12-Nov-19
Grey Ghost 12-Nov-19
K Cummings 12-Nov-19
K Cummings 12-Nov-19
Grey Ghost 12-Nov-19
K Cummings 12-Nov-19
Trial153 12-Nov-19
K Cummings 12-Nov-19
K Cummings 12-Nov-19
GF 12-Nov-19
Grey Ghost 12-Nov-19
BIG BEAR 12-Nov-19
K Cummings 12-Nov-19
Grey Ghost 12-Nov-19
K Cummings 12-Nov-19
Grey Ghost 12-Nov-19
BIG BEAR 12-Nov-19
K Cummings 12-Nov-19
K Cummings 12-Nov-19
JTV 12-Nov-19
BIG BEAR 12-Nov-19
Grey Ghost 12-Nov-19
BIG BEAR 12-Nov-19
JL 12-Nov-19
BIG BEAR 12-Nov-19
JL 12-Nov-19
JTV 12-Nov-19
BIG BEAR 12-Nov-19
JL 12-Nov-19
Grey Ghost 12-Nov-19
BIG BEAR 12-Nov-19
Grey Ghost 12-Nov-19
RK 12-Nov-19
Grey Ghost 12-Nov-19
RK 12-Nov-19
Grey Ghost 12-Nov-19
Grey Ghost 13-Nov-19
BIG BEAR 13-Nov-19
sitO 13-Nov-19
320 bull 13-Nov-19
K Cummings 13-Nov-19
Grey Ghost 13-Nov-19
BIG BEAR 13-Nov-19
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JL 13-Nov-19
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K Cummings 13-Nov-19
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JL 13-Nov-19
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Bowbender 13-Nov-19
K Cummings 13-Nov-19
c5ken 16-Nov-19
07-Nov-19

Missouribreaks's Link

From: Grey Ghost
07-Nov-19
It has a long way to go before it becomes law.

Matt

From: NoWiser
07-Nov-19
Don't worry, the Nuge is on it....what a tool.

Politicians making wildlife management decisions will be the quickest way for us to lose hunting opportunities. Over the long run it will result in many more losses than wins.

From: JL
07-Nov-19
In Michigan, as someone who is well versed on the DNR inner workings recently told me.....the DNR is an extension of MUCC and the QDMA crowd. IMO...the DNR (MUCC/QDMA) hurts the public land hunter with some of their regs.

07-Nov-19
Apparently, even if passed, it would not REQUIRE a hunter to use bait!

If you are not comfortable baiting.... do not bait.

From: JTV
07-Nov-19
one step forward and two steps back ... smh .... thank goodness that use is illegal here ...

From: craigmcalvey
07-Nov-19
I find the baiting ban rather stupid, not because I like to hunt over bait, but because it’s based on guesses and flawed science. And our DNR wants more deer killed and like it or not, baiting does result in more deer killed as many hunters don’t know how to hunt. I don’t have strong feelings for or against it but I do wish the ban was actually enforced. The neighbors pile of corn hasn’t gotten any smaller this year. Makes for teachable moments with my son when we discuss ethical behavior while hunting , even if no one is around.

Craig

From: Feedjake
07-Nov-19
I don't care so much about whether you hunt over bait or not, what I care about is the public's perception of hunting, and baiting in no ways helps that.

From: rodb
07-Nov-19
Standing over a bait pile is not hunting, have fun

From: buckhammer
07-Nov-19
This is all about $$$$.

It has absolutely nothing to do with hunters wanting to bait. Or listening to some cute sound bite from your friendly legislature about how they are just trying to look out for some down state hunter that hunts Up North but due to his hectic schedule can only hunt one Saturday a month from 2 p.m. to 4 p.m. and if he doesn't have a big "ol pile of carrots and sugar beets he will never ever see a deer.

This is all about the farmers bitching, pissing, and moaning to the Michigan Farm Bureau about lost sales on carrots and sugar beets to the party stores and sporting goods shops and the party stores and sporting goods shops bitching, pissing and moaning to the Michigan Chamber of Commerce about lost sales on carrots and sugar beets to the hunter that lives down state.

07-Nov-19
buckhammer hit the nail on the head!

From: c5ken
07-Nov-19
The Michigan House passed a bill recently that will repeal the ban on baiting...

From: craigmcalvey
08-Nov-19
Buck hammer where are all these farmers growing carrots and sugar beets? The farmers around me who grow sugar beets truck them straight to the receiving yard. All the farmers I know complain about the deer numbers and the fact that hunters won’t shoot does around here...

From: scott7030
08-Nov-19
I have no problem with baiting, but I know from the last time that baiting was banned, my hunting was better. I saw more deer than years when baiting is allowed. This year has been a little slow on the deer sighting though. On the other side of the fence I have two young daughters that both want to hunt. The oldest is 9 years old, she has killed 4 deer. Most of them have been over bait. The baiting ban slowed down her success this year. She tagged out last weekend. For me baiting also is great for the "horrible" late season doe hunt here in Michigan. One of the most brilliant ideas ever is to have 2.5 weeks of doe hunting when its the hardest to tell the difference between does and button bucks. At least with bait I could study the animal at a close distance to determine if its a doe or a buck that dropped his antlers early from stress.

As far as JL comments on the extension of the DNR being MUCC and QDMA. I agree that the DNR/NRC gets a lot of input from the MUCC and QDMA, but from my perspective, the MUCC does have a huge influence along with insurance companies. If QDMA had as much influence as the MUCC I would be in a 4 on a side unit this year living in the thumb.

From: JL
08-Nov-19
Bait pile - bait plot....pretty much the same thing IMO.

The thing with MUCC and QDMA is they do not represent alot of folks and unfortunately they have the DNR's ear....often.

From: drycreek
08-Nov-19
Bait pile-bait plot-oak tree-doe pee-pinch points-well traveled trails-persimmon trees-apple trees-just sayin’ ;-)

From: JL
08-Nov-19
^Something like that.....but only one of those gets criticized. Oh the irony.....

From: BIG BEAR
08-Nov-19
John...... Don’t forget that the DNR leaves lawmaking decisions up to the NRC. The Natural Resource Commission. They are in tight with all the big hunting clubs.....

They make laws based on good old boy networks.... and ignore the recommendations of the DNR deer biologist.

Someone please explain to me how baiting is illegal in the Lower Peninsula......

Yet it is legal in the Upper Peninsula. There is CWD present in both peninsulas. If baiting is bad for deer in the lower,,,, Then it’s bad for deer in the upper.

If the NRC thinks it’s OK to have baiting legal in the Upper.... then why not in the Lower.... at least be consistent for Pete’s sake.

From: JL
08-Nov-19
BB...how many NRC members are also QDMA members or advocates?

From: BIG BEAR
08-Nov-19
Probably all. And they’re elected.... which means that anyone can get elected and make the deer laws..... They can ignore the recommendations of the paid deer biologists just like they did in the UP when they outlawed the shooting of does during archery season across most of the U.P.,,,,,, To appease the predominantly gun hunting organization..... U.P. Whitetails.

I talked on the phone to a DNR deer biologist up there. She said they recommended to continue to allow does during bow season.

09-Nov-19
They should allow controlled baiting state wide, stop the concentration of deer on private land food plots. Concentrating herds is bad for CWD.

From: GF
09-Nov-19
“Bait pile-bait plot-oak tree-doe pee-pinch points-well traveled trails-persimmon trees-apple trees-just sayin’”

I’ve never seen anyone study a topo map and spend several days scouring an area for deer sign in order to figure out where to dump a bait pile.

And I’ve never seen a tree bear a second crop when the first one was gone.

Nor have I ever seen a deer stop, sniff and bolt the other way because carrots and sugar beets aren’t in season for 2 more weeks.

I always thought that Hunting was supposed to be About cultivating the skills necessary to be able to spend enough time in the right places doing the right things to be able to make a clean kill with one’s weapon of choice while the animal is doing what it would ordinarily be doing if there were no humans anywhere in the vicinity.

Most “hunting” these days seems to be about manipulating the environment as much as possible in order to assure that the animals will be where we want them to be when we want them to be there so as to make killing them as easy as possible.

May as well go to the city park with a loaf of bread and a shotgun and call it Duck Hunting.

OK, it’s not THAT bad, but to a lot of non-hunters, it doesn’t look a whole lot better, and we really do need to be a bit more concerned with the Optics of the whole thing. And the Science. And the Wildlife Management.

Just sayin’....

In some places (like private land around here) people just want the deer GONE. They don’t give a rat’s ass how you do it. Most non-hunters, though, seem to have a lot more respect for making it as Fair Chase as possible...

From: BIG BEAR
09-Nov-19
Thanks for explaining what hunting is supposed to be to YOU, GF. Just don’t tell everybody else what hunting should be to them and we’ll be good.

From: Ambush
09-Nov-19
GF, for someone so young, you sure are a bitter, envious man. And that is not anyone else’s fault.

From: Shoe
09-Nov-19
GF, I respect what you had to say, my thoughts are in line with yours. Doesn’t mean these are right and others are wrong, We are entitled to our opinions.

From: JL
09-Nov-19
^X2 That. IMO the over arching view should be as long as it is legal....it's ok.

From: JTV
09-Nov-19
.......... one dosnt have to use 'bait' even where legal, and that is what I did, when I used to hunt Michigan, I refused to use the crap and I always killed good deer for the area I was in ..... bait is nothing but a crutch for many .... and I'll say it again and again thank goodness the process of dumping bait is illegal here in Indiana ... IN DNR: Fair Chase. It is illegal to use bait, salt, snares, dogs or other domesticated animals to take deer. Bait is considered any product that is transported into a hunting area and placed there for animal consumption. ... An area is considered to be baited for 10 days after the removal of the bait and any affected soil. .......

From: JL
09-Nov-19
Jeff....would you consider a bait plot a crutch?

From: GF
09-Nov-19
Sorry I offended your delicate sensibilities there, Bushie....

Seems like most people here can hear a POV that differs from their own without being so threatened as to have to try and turn it around and make it about The Other Guy’s insecurities.

The point is, there is a whole, wide spectrum of hunting methods; what’s Legal is Legal, but it’s a load of crap to insist that what any one hunter does has zero impact on anyone else. You can’t put out bait to draw animals in from the surrounding area without drawing animals OFF OF adjacent properties, can you?

Out here, that’s kind of necessary because the people who are open to having someone hunt their property aren’t always the people with a parcel that lends itself to being hunted. And we do have a herd density issue here; if you can get access to a big enough parcel to find travel corridors, you’d be pretty crazy to waste your time and money baiting a place where the deer will turn up anyway, wouldn’t you?

But if you’re on a small property, you might well need to persuade them to change their route to where you have a reasonable chance at dropping them on the same parcel that you’re permitted to hunt.

Not the ideal situation, but no formal definition of hunting contemplates the Hunter being limited to suburban-scale properties.

And yeah, just in case you hadn’t picked up on it yet, I DO have a sense of humor, and not above prickling people with it.

From: BIG BEAR
09-Nov-19
Jeff..... Would you consider hunting antelope or elk over water a crutch ?? Do yo think it should be illegal ??

From: BIG BEAR
09-Nov-19
Jeff..... Would hunting African game over a water tank be a crutch ?? Should it be illegal ??

From: BIG BEAR
09-Nov-19
Jeff....Is hunting behind a high fence a crutch ?? Should it be illegal ??

From: sitO
09-Nov-19
Training animals to come to a failure pile has ZERO to do with hunting...and it makes you look weak

From: Ambush
09-Nov-19
I’m not offended at all, GF. I’m just sad for you and your situation.

Where I’m “hunting” right now in northern B.C. , I have my own issues. Not great deer numbers and the population is very much at peril if winter conditions are bad. Add slow recovery rates, coyote predation and last winter a cougar plague. I put in quite a bit of time, effort and money to feed “my” little herd. Hauling hay by hand to bedding areas for thermal protection. Dragging feed through deep snow.

And yup, sometimes somebody kills a good buck at night on the road, that I might have got a crack at. But I don’t let that spoil my time in the woods.

I’m sorry you don’t see me as a hunter. But I can’t change that, so I’ll just sit here and enjoy my time , my way and be happy that I can.

From: Ambush
09-Nov-19
SitO, how far do you have to be from crop land before you’re not considered weak.? In miles please.

From: BIG BEAR
09-Nov-19
SitO..... Then why don’t you go hang out on some websites where people all think like you do...?? Because the owner of this site is hunting deer over bait in Kansas right now...... I happen to support him 100%.

Does hunting bear over a failure pile make you look weak ??? God forbid I mention hound hunting bears....

I see you have an antelope picture..... Can you give us your views of hunting antelope over a water hole ?????

From: GF
09-Nov-19
I never said I don’t see you as a hunter. Every one of us hunts a unique situation; given my druthers I’d hunt National Forest and spend a 14-hour day on my feet looking for Elk (which may or may not be within a mile of that drainage on any given day), but sometimes I sit up a tree and take a 5-yard shot at a whitetail in a funnel I call the Fish Barrel.

But there are unique situations and there is Policy. In a state with concerns about CWD, it’s asinine to permit baiting, unless it’s being done specifically to drive down the deer density and no deer walks away from the pile.

That’s where the whole thing gets screwy. If you’re after a deer of a particular size, then presumably you’re after the “challenge” of taking a mature deer.... but if it’s “challenge” you’re after, why would you be hunting a spot where you’ve manipulated the environment for the express purpose of making it easier to kill a deer??? Why would you choose a compound over a stickbow or a crossbow over a compound or a firearm over a crossbow?

What’s great about hunting is that (within reason) you can make it about as easy or as difficult as appeals to you, but the laws really do need to be set up for the Common Good...

From: BIG BEAR
09-Nov-19
If it’s asinine to permit baiting in the lower peninsula...... then it’s asinine to permit it in the upper,,,, Isn’t it ???

It’s legal in the U.P., and there is CWD in both peninsulas.....

So apparently the Michigan DNR can’t decide if they agree with you......

09-Nov-19
Eliminating baiting, but allowing food plots merely concentrates deer on private land. Best to allow managed baiting and plotting and keep the herd spread out.

From: GF
09-Nov-19
NO disagreement here, Big B!

FWIW, I don’t like food plots any more than I like baiting, and for that exact reason.

But food plots don’t concentrate the animals in the same, nose-to-nose fashion that a pile does. And most food plots are at least big enough that you can’t cover the whole thing with a bow.

As I said before, there’s a spectrum.... Find your place on it and enjoy it in good health, eh?

From: JTV
09-Nov-19
JL, I just drove past a 5 acre 'plot', wanna try figuring out where those deer will be feeding ?? .... huge difference between a 5-10 ft bait 'dump' and a plot, even a 1/4 acre plot.... BB, as for 'high fence' I despise 'high fence' as much as I do crossbows in "Archery seasons" ... remember the Russ Bellar and Jimmy Houston debacle ?? .... btw, high fence isnt fair chase either ... btw, is the water tank placed there to attract 'game' or for the cattle to use ?... if it is for the cattle and 'game' incidentally uses it that is a different story .... personally, I hunt FAIR CHASE/Open Range critters only ... no dumped bait, no high fence .... crossbows/ NEVER !! ...... btw, Ive been very successful at it thru the years .. .... just because something is legal, should one do it ?? ...

From: JTV
09-Nov-19
P&Y position statements : High Fence Position Statement

The Pope and Young Club does not consider game-proof fenced enclosures to be a condition meeting the basic tenets of Fair Chase. Fair Chase is defined as the ethical, sportsmanlike and lawful pursuit of free-ranging wild game animals in a manner which does not give the hunter an improper or unfair advantage over the animal.

Canned Shoots Position Statement The Pope and Young Club condemns the killing of big game animals in artificial situations where animals are held in captivity, or released from captivity. Inappropriately referred to as “canned hunts,” these actions are devoid of any resemblance of fair chase hunting.

Beyond the Club’s position that game-proof fenced enclosures are not fair chase because the animals are not free-ranging, these canned shoot situations present further concerns impacting the future of bowhunting, weaken the public acceptance of legitimate fair chase bowhunting, provide possibilities for transmitting diseases, and corrupt the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation. Animals held, or bred and raised for the purpose of trophy harvest, in these facilities are not wildlife, rather, are privately owned livestock. The killing of these animals is not managed by the authority of a wildlife management agency. And the killing, itself, is devoid of any values embodied by legitimate hunting.

The Pope and Young Club does not accept into its Records Program any animal taken under any captive scenarios.

Crossbow Policy Statement

The Pope and Young Club was founded to promote bowhunting and to record for posterity the outstanding examples of North American big game animals taken solely with the hunting bow.

For the purpose of the Pope and Young Club, a bow shall be defined as a longbow, recurve bow or compound bow that is hand-held and hand-drawn, and that has no mechanical device to enable the hunter to lock the bow at full or partial draw. Other than the energy stored by the drawn bow, no device to propel the arrow will be permitted.

Consequently, the Pope and Young Club does not consider the crossbow to be a hunting bow and will not accept any trophies collected by crossbow hunters. Further, the Pope and Young Club considers the use of crossbows during bowhunting seasons to be a serious threat to the future of bowhunting.

The Pope and Young Club therefore recommends the crossbow should not be considered for use in any bowhunting only season. Also, the Club strongly recommends that crossbow hunting be abolished from all existing bowhunting only seasons. We encourage all states and provinces which desire to allow use of crossbows for hunting big game, to require mandatory crossbow specific education, licensing, seasons and reporting requirements.

From: GF
09-Nov-19
So, JTV....

What % let-off are you shooting???

From: JTV
09-Nov-19
what does that have to do with baiting ?? .. trolling again ? .. 0 % - recurve .. 75/80% with compound ... both are hand drawn and hand held and must be drawn and held prior to release in the presence of game, unlike a crossbow which is shot in form and style like a rifle ... mic drop !!

From: BIG BEAR
09-Nov-19
Jeff..... What is P&Y’s stance on shooting a deer over bait ???????

From: BIG BEAR
09-Nov-19
Answer..... It falls under fair chase according to their rules.

Oh and I agree with P&Y that canned high fence hunts are not really hunting.... I feel no need to defend such activities that don’t even require the purchase of a hunting license.

From: JTV
09-Nov-19
........ just because it is legal, dosnt mean one has to do it .. as Ive said before, some could never kill a deer it wasnt for damn bait .. and again I will say, thank goodness the procedure is illegal here ....

From: sitO
09-Nov-19
C'mon Chris, you don't really feel like you're "hunting" when you sit there starring at that pile do ya...really?

From: BIG BEAR
09-Nov-19
Exactly Jeff. You don’t have to do it. You don’t have to hunt over a water hole either in the desert for pronghorn..... so don’t. And please continue to tell us all how freaking awesome you are. You couldn’t even carry Kevin Dill’s jock strap. Try a solo hunt in Alaska for moose with a recurve and tell me how freaking amazing you are.....

From: BIG BEAR
09-Nov-19
SitO. I wish I was in Kansas with Pat right now. Does that answer your question ??

From: Michael
09-Nov-19
So it’s bad to have deer herd up over a bait pile. But it’s A ok for them to naturally herd up in the winter time then?

From: JTV
09-Nov-19
BB sitting over a bait pile ...lol ...........

From: BIG BEAR
09-Nov-19
Michael...... The deer don’t go to yard in Indiana like they do in Minnesota or northern Wisconsin or the U.P.,,,, You might have to explain that concept to JTV and others here.

From: JTV
09-Nov-19
deer have been 'herding' up naturally for tens of thousands of years as a form of survival, bait piles are of human placement and only popular in the last 60 yrs or so and have nothing to do with natural survival of the specie ........

From: BIG BEAR
09-Nov-19
Fred Bear hunted deer over carrots in Michigan... I recall some kind of Christmas card he had of Santa in a pile of carrots.... I bet you’re a much better hunter than Fred Bear.... eh Jeff....??

From: JTV
09-Nov-19
once again BB is showing himself to be a 'BuN tyen-shung duh ee-DWAY-RO' many of the CF had known him always to be, that is why he wasnt invited to be part of our new CF.. BB, the queen of the trolls.... lol ........

From: BIG BEAR
09-Nov-19
And you display why Pat did away with the CF. Great job sport.

From: JTV
09-Nov-19
No, those like yourself ruined it, trolling like you do here .. causing nothing but hate and discontent with your BS attacks and asinine comments .....

From: BIG BEAR
09-Nov-19
Really....?? You mean like Hedge Hunter who was removed from this site. You and you racial jokes were lucky not to follow in his footsteps..... Why don’t you beast on Pat some more for hunting deer over bait and see how long you last here ???

Maybe you fit in better on your new CF where you can post your vulgar racial jokes at will....

From: JTV
09-Nov-19
get over yourself BB, you aint all that, you never were and never will be .... TROLL : ie-BB .. "In Internet slang, a troll is a person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the Internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses[2] and normalizing tangential discussion,[3] whether for the troll's amusement or a specific gain." ...

From: RK
09-Nov-19
JTV

GOOD LORD TAKE A CHILL PILL.

NONE of this is important enough to get triggered. Lol!

I bet given the chance you would sit over bait to kill every wolf and/or coyote! Kind of the same thing don't you think

From: JTV
09-Nov-19
ME ?? ... it is once again that troll that started this .. ..btw, no I dont think it is the same either .......

From: RK
09-Nov-19
Of course not because you would shoot wolves over bait but not other critters sooooo that in your mind makes it different. Kind of a perspective thing. LOL!

As I said. None of this is worth a trigger. Just opinions. Nothing more or less.

No worries. Carry on

10-Nov-19
As far as sportsmanship, baiting Michigan deer is no different than baiting Michigan bear with doughnuts. It is the same concept.

From: BIG BEAR
10-Nov-19
Sure it is breaks...... But the guys who seem to think that whitetail deer are so sacred that one should not employ baiting techniques will tell you that you are comparing apples to oranges.....

An interesting note is that the Michigan DNR participates in extensive supplemental feeding of the deer in the winter near the deer yards. Literally hundreds upon hundreds of deer who are all yarded up in tight quarters in cedar swamps come running out into the road right behind the trucks that are dumping corn to help them survive the winter........

If baiting for deer is bad where CWD is present.... then winter supplemental feeding surely must be too.

From: BIG BEAR
10-Nov-19
Some guys might belittle using bait for deer...... Saying it’s a “crutch”...... that they couldn’t kill a deer without........

Then those same guys might choose to hunt turkeys with a shotgun......... hmmm

We all make our own choices.......

From: JL
10-Nov-19
This is a good vid that demonstrates the natural contact deer have when they congregate in bait plots. This is a clover plot in the bottom of a bowl. Deer feed, bed, pee and contact each other in the plot. The thing about bait plots is they are present much longer than bait piles. The same happens at any source...oaks, apples trees, ag fields, water, etc. That is why I think the DNR has a hard case to sell saying baiting is the only thing that congregates deer so lets get rid of it. I think many public land hunter look at that with disdain and frustration.

10-Nov-19
Agree with BB and JL.

From: Russ Koon
10-Nov-19
My main objection to ban on baiting has always been that it is another regulation that is almost completely unenforceable. The amount of various products sold in stores, filling stations, and just about every other business establishment prior to our gun season, supposedly for those who want to use to "observe wildlife" should be a clue to those who think there is actually an effective ban in place.

I hunt primarily on private land, and some years I have been the only one with permission to be there. Even in those years, there was often a pumpkin or two or a few ears of corn not far from the fence line. Probably just someone else who wanted to "observe" some deer.

I've worn out several pairs of boots when younger and in my prime, but in today's age of smaller huntable acreages available, more posted and "don't even ask" adjacent neighbors, and more public land pressure, along with a hunter population that is increasingly feeling its age, I think that baiting should be reconsidered here as well.

Reality has changed since I was a kid on the farm and could pretty much walk all day and never get off either our small farm or one of our neighboring places where I knew I was welcome.

If some deer are lured off that posted property across the fence from the forty that i have permission on, and one or two end up in my freezer, is that so bad? Would the rest of the hunters still walking around in the public land trying to find a deer that hasn't been pressured into becoming nocturnal or a good tree for a stand that doesn't already have one in it really be better off if I was still walking around in that woods too?

The bait hunter is sitting in one spot like you've probably wished a dozen or so other hunters were also doing within the last few seasons. And he's statistically less likely to take a nice buck, which tend to be too cautious to visit feeders during daylight, than to settle for a tasty doe. The biggest deterrent to most people to keep hunting or start hunting is the lack of a place to do it that's not overcrowded already or unavailable due to landowners that don't allow it. Anything that makes hunting smaller plots more viable and reduces the need for hunters to wander around disturbing others should be welcomed.

And any unenforceable laws that are actually just hindrances on the legal participants in an activity should be re-thought, and considered to be bad legislation.

From: Kevin Dill
10-Nov-19
How in the hell did my name come up in this? Nobody can carry my jockstrap because I haven’t owned one in something like 40 years. I’m writing this as I hunt the edge of my food plot.....which is a 20 acre hayfield. Nothing to it baby.

From: BIG BEAR
10-Nov-19
Ha !!! Sorry about that Kevin. I look at you and guys like you as the benchmark of bowhunters. You do things as a bowhunter that 99% of all bowhunters can’t do. (Including myself)... A guy ranted about how great of a whitetail hunter he is and knocked other hunters.....I doubt he’s ever even hunted any big game other than deer..... I simply sought to bust his bubble a bit. My bad. I should have left your name out of it. Sorry.

From: GF
10-Nov-19
“If some deer are lured off that posted property across the fence from the forty that i have permission on, and one or two end up in my freezer, is that so bad?”

That depends - ENTIRELY and quite literally - on which side of the fence you’re on.

10-Nov-19
OK... I have read all the posts..... I Hunted Canada, (JTV) the same places all the hoyt toyt, bowhunting TV people go,,,,for your information, its all over bait, all in that wilderness area it is baited..... I guess for the high and mighty that is ok, but in reality, its not only legal, and ethical, but practical.....

My house is in the western UP..... I personally do not bait, but I can hunt every day, for me to get a deer is no big deal, and I get plenty of venison out of Wisconsin, not to worry about it......

MI is not going to ban baiting in the UP,,,, its not going to happen.... I have no problem with baiting, as long as you follow the rules................. The joke is I can put out all the food plots I want, but the QDMA crowd believes the old guy down the road, should not be able to put out some apples.................... give me a break

MI currently as gone along with the QDMA gang, and in the CWD zone, are going with antler point restrictions, trying to incur, hunters not to shoot younger bucks, but to kill older does................ I have followed QDMA rules for a long time, but unlike most members I believe in killing does, and they may talk a good game, but they do not.

My opinion of CWD is you should be killing more bucks, but what do I know.................

I have lived my life from Colorado, to South Dakota to Wis to the UP,,,,,,, for those who hate to bait, it all depends on the environment..... again I do not bait, but have no issues with it................

I just returned from a trip to land I am involved in , in SW Wis, some of the most prime buck hunting areas in the country..... In the last week I saw 19 bucks, and passed on 7, since I am looking for something special.........THE WHOLE AREA OF QDMA THAT WE ARE INVLOVED IN, IS FOOD PLOTS, MANAGED LAND, AND DO NOT STEP ON OUR PROPERTY LINES................................. the same people I talked to down there hate baiting, but no nothing of what they are talking about.......

again I have land in SW Wisconsin, and in South Dakota and in the UP, so I think I know a little something

good luck to all this fall

10-Nov-19
Missouri I saw your post on the " baiting issue" on bears..... are you serious? I have killed bears on spot and stalk in New Mexico, and in Colorado, but I am sorry sir, baiting is an ethical hunt in the Great Lakes area,,, different environment

From: itshot
10-Nov-19
the brotherhood runs deep....like cain and abel

From: Ambush
10-Nov-19
There is zero difference between baiting deer and baiting bears. You place an attractant to kill an animal. Period. If there is a difference I'm open to the explanation.

And in the same way, a food plot is an attractant placed to kill an animal.

And actually, if you hunt crop edges or trails leading specifically to man made food sources, you're stretching pretty far.

10-Nov-19
GH... I never said baiting bear is unethical, have killed a few dozen that way with my stickbows. Baiting bear is as ethical as baiting deer. Who said either was unethical, and why did you pin that on me?

10-Nov-19
Missouri the post on baiting deer with doughnuts,,,,,,,,,,, guess I read it wrong,,, my apology

From: Ambush
10-Nov-19
SitO, you didn’t answer my question about how far I have to be from cultivated land to not be considered “weak”.

From: sitO
10-Nov-19
It's a relative term Rod, ______ it out

From: Ambush
10-Nov-19
Relative to what?

From: JTV
10-Nov-19
Indiana says NO to baiting .... there are enough deer killed as it is, even the DNR has back off on antlerless bonus tags and then backed off even more with this years EHD hit ... Good for Indiana .

"The DNR has chosen not to pursue the regulation of baiting deer at this time.

To provide background, the DNR prohibits the use or aid to bait deer in 312-AC 9-3-2(u). Liquids, solid, placed foods, and other bait, feeders, corn, salt/mineral licks, piles of apples and any other products is considered 'bait', as well as affected soil, MUST be removed 10 days prior to hunting the deer there ... food plots are not illegal unless activities are done to keep the plants, seed, or other food source on the ground that is not part of normal agricultural process ...

While hunting deer, if the hunter will have the ability to take deer due to the placement of 'bait' (such as apples, a salt block, liquid bait, feeder or other means to attract deer), then it is illegal to hunt deer there ....There is no distance where the bait has to be from a hunter in use in the law, but it must be evident by a conservation officer that the hunter was not hunting with the use of bait. There are many factors that determine how attractive bait placed placed in the environment will be, such as the type of bait, quality of habitat, topography, deer population in the area, and movement patterns of the animals. Providing an arbitrary distance would not adequately address fair chase in all situations.

Diseases such as Bovine TB, which has been found in wild deer in Franklin county, as well as Chronic Wasting Disease, can be spread through nose to nose contact of deer at bait sites. With Chronic Wasting Disease in Michigan (Wild Deer), Illinois (Wild Deer), Ohio (Captive deer), it is IMPERATIVE that the baiting of deer continue to remain ILLEGAL to prevent any transfer of this disease. Increasing the opportunity for these diseases to spread by allowing baiting does not protect the wild deer population.

Additionally, research out of MICHIGAN that has shown that allowing baiting for the entire season, through contributing to an increase in sightings of deer, did NOT increase the harvest of deer. Successful hunter harvest is NOT contingent on baiting.

The INDNR also has concerns regarding baiting unnaturally congregating animals on individual properties, which has the ability to disrupt their natural movement patterns and may effect other hunters deer sightings.

Additionally, the placement of bait could also affect a hunter that is not aware of the placement of bait on an adjacent property or by another person using that same property.

For these reason, the INDNR does not support the allowance of baiting during the hunting season" ....

From: Ambush
10-Nov-19
JTV, is it ok use bait to attract and kill bears?

From: JTV
10-Nov-19
Bears are not ungulates and have a much larger range that deer so are harder to pattern in many areas (Male black bears range over much larger areas and home ranges are 10 to 59 square miles ) (Deer home range is aprox. 300-800 acres give or take)... ... bears dont get CWD, and we dont have bears here in Indiana ( generally speaking) .......... btw, I'd rather do a spot and stalk on bears if given the choice, but if one wants to bait bears, have at it ........

From: Ambush
11-Nov-19
Well you always have a choice. Not sure how many dozens of bears I've killed with a bow and many more with a rifle and have never killed one over bait.

If your argument is that baiting spreads CWD, then baiting deer in areas that don't have CWD should be ok since baiting itself does not cause the disease. Correct?

And why do deer in fields that touch noses not transfer the disease just as readily? There is a virtual "chain" of deer interconnected all across every landscape and no deer is isolated from the rest. If they feed where other deer feed, they are exposed. Be it bait piles, food plots, fields or bush. I just think many people let their own biases rationalize their outlooks. If you've always thought that baiting was bad, you'll quickly jump on the "it spreads CWD" bandwagon without much intentional thought. We all champion whatever aligns with our own thoughts.

If indeed the disease lasts forever, then it doesn't matter if you wipe out every deer in a state, wait five years and then restock with clean animals. They will just become reinfected. You also don't know if there are deer developing resistance to the disease and you may be killing those deer that could pass that resistance onto their offspring.

Nature has its own way of dealing with over populations and it's own way of restoring them. The preservationists fall into the trap of wanting everything to stay the same as when they experienced it. Look at feral horses. In no way are they natural to their now homes, but don't tell that to a "wild' horse lover. We are much the same and figure it should never change in our lifetime and when nature decides otherwise, we decide to override her.

Mother nature has no heart. She has neither love nor malice for flora or fauna. And "balance" is measured over hundreds or thousands of years, not a hunters lifetime.

We humans are a vain lot. We accredit ourselves with more more power than we really swing. But we fool ourselves into thinking we're doing something by pissing on a house fire.

From: JTV
11-Nov-19

JTV's embedded Photo
JTV's embedded Photo
this is all this debate is ........

From: BIG BEAR
11-Nov-19
Very well worded Ambush. I agree with everything you said.

11-Nov-19
Baiting helps to prevent deer from concentrating on private land.

From: 320 bull
11-Nov-19
I live in MI and have hunted here my whole life. I have tried the bait thing and found it to be not my kind of hunting. It worked ok but most deer with any age know their way around a carrot pile in my neighborhood of SW MI. So I choose not to use. Couldn't care less if it's legal and others do though. I sure wouldn't say that baiters don't know how to hunt. My question for those that think its unethical or below them to use bait how many have hunted in MI? I have hunted deer in Mi, KS, Ohio, Indiana and Missouri and I have to say the deer here in MI are the most skittish scared nervous hard to kill deer I have seen anywhere. Try to draw on an old doe around here on a carrot pile and you better have your stuff together because she already has 1 if not both eyes on you. Baiting creates a whole different set of challenges and easier is a relative term. I am unsure if the science supports it or not, I have come to not believe much that is published on the subject.

From: RK
11-Nov-19
"I have come to not believe much that is published on the subject "

Well said and that applies to lots of other subjects as well

11-Nov-19
Missouri that is a very factual statement. In Florence County right now, you can not bait. However private land you can have food plots..... My friend has lots of deer sucked onto his land, from the national forest because of it................. I know an old man last year, that got a ticket for putting out 10 apples, ridiculous at best

From: JL
11-Nov-19
"Baiting helps to prevent deer from concentrating on private land."

IMO that is a great way to frame one of the issues regarding bait piles, bait plots, private land and public land. That statement seems to have eluded the Michigan DNR/NRC.

From: K Cummings
11-Nov-19
Excellent post Ambush.

KPC

From: Grey Ghost
11-Nov-19
I just don't understand how someone can take pride in killing a deer that's been conditioned to come to a bait pile. Take Pat's Kansas hunt for example. They hunt from the exact same stands every year, over the same bait piles that get refreshed frequently during the season, and probably thru-out the year. The deer are basically livestock. There's no hunting involved, just shooting. Not my cup-o-tea, but I'd never deny someone from using any legal methods they choose, unless it's on my own personal property.

Matt

From: Ambush
11-Nov-19
GG, ever shoot a bear over bait?

From: Grey Ghost
11-Nov-19
"GG, ever shoot a bear over bait?"

Never, nor would I. Again, that's not my definition of fair chase hunting, but I fully acknowledge that others have a different definition.

My place is loaded with turkeys. They learned long ago that my horses make a mess when they feed, so there's always an ample supply of grain on the ground around my barn for the turkeys to feed on. As many as 40-50 birds will show like clock work at morning and evening feeding times. They pay no attention to me while I'm feeding the horses.

Hunting any wild game that has been conditioned to come to bait piles would be the same as hunting turkeys at my barn for me. No challenge, no sport, and no satisfaction.

Matt

From: Ambush
11-Nov-19
^^ Alrighty, I can respect that.

11-Nov-19
I respect both what Matt and Ambush said.

Getting a little Biblical here, I do believe animals were created by God and gifted to us for our use. So, any way that is legal and reduces the suffering of a target animal to a minimum is justified, even if some do not want to call it hunting.

From: GF
11-Nov-19
“ I have to say the deer here in MI are the most skittish scared nervous hard to kill deer I have seen anywhere. Try to draw on an old doe around here on a carrot pile and you better have your stuff together because she already has 1 if not both eyes on you.”

So here’s a philosophical point to ponder....

Let’s accept 320’s statement at face value. Seems to me that those deer would be far more likely to jump the string and be hit poorly, resulting in a much higher loss/wounding rate than would occur if they were in a more natural setting, just doing what they do. Everybody says “Never shoot at a deer that’s on high alert” and that’s damn good advice, but if just being around a bait pile PUTS them on Code Red status, then you basically have NO ethical shot opportunity over bait, right??

This reminds me of the “research” that Adrian Benke did to prove that the POD was really NECESSARY in order to make Bowhunting a responsible method of take.

From: BIG BEAR
11-Nov-19
I like to shoot deer at about 12 yards.... not much string jumping going on there....... The challenge at that distance is getting drawn back undetected...

The deer I have killed without bait have all been 20-30 yards.....

From: Cornpone
11-Nov-19
buckhammer: "This is all about the farmers bitching, pissing, and moaning to the Michigan Farm Bureau about lost sales on carrots and sugar beets to the party stores and sporting goods shops and the party stores and sporting goods shops bitching, pissing and moaning to the Michigan Chamber of Commerce about lost sales on carrots and sugar beets to the hunter that lives down state."

And how many of those bitching have, and promote, open hunting on their unposted land?

From: K Cummings
11-Nov-19
"I just drove past a 5 acre 'plot', wanna try figuring out where those deer will be feeding ??"

I always find this argument rather comical. Personally, I couldn't care less where they will be be feeding, I'm only concerned about where they enter and exit. Unless maybe you are hunting with a rifle, who hunts an entire food plot or an entire ag field? Of course it is unknown where a particular deer is going to feed while there, but it's not hard to figure out where deer tend to enter and exit those plots based on wind and other conditions.

Some of the easiest hunting I have ever done, by far, is hunting small woodlots between ag fields. Talk about conditioned animals. Stevie Wonder could pattern those deer.

KPC

From: Bou'bound
11-Nov-19
One or two more of these baiting threads and I bet we all end up agreeing on a common position and end up moving forward in an aligned stance. That day is quickly coming.

From: Grey Ghost
11-Nov-19
"Talk about conditioned animals. Stevie Wonder could pattern those deer."

At least Stevie would have to get out and actually scout the area, pick an ambush spot, then determine how and when to hunt it. That's a little different than being dropped off at a baited stand and waiting for the livestock to appear.

Matt

11-Nov-19
The public land and small parcel hunters deserve a fair shake at using artificial food as a deer attractant, IMO.

From: Ambush
11-Nov-19
Bou, you could be right. I sense GG and JTV are going to tap out anytime now :)

From: K Cummings
11-Nov-19
:)

KPC

From: BIG BEAR
11-Nov-19
I think if Pat simply kicks everyone off here who says anything negative about legal hunting methods... we’ll be good........ :-)

From: JTV
11-Nov-19
the reasons not to bait are many and mostly based on science and biology and some on the negative feelings baiting projects, the reason to allow the process is based on the incapability of most to comprehend those reasons ...

11-Nov-19
The stop baiting was designed to decrease deer concentrations on food sources. The reality is, with decreased food sources the deer have concentrated even more, generally on private land artificial food sources. More food sources is the answer, not less.

From: JTV
11-Nov-19
easy to say that ^^ but where is the study(s) proving such ........ there are always going to be areas of higher densities, some because of food, some because of cover and safety ... the hardest thing a deer manager/biologist/game dept. does is to try and manage deer hunters ...

11-Nov-19
There is no study on either end. Common sense says to unconcentrate deer one needs more food sources, not less.

11-Nov-19
If food concentrates deer, how does providing even less food reduce the concentration? Doubt that would work for humans either.

From: Grey Ghost
11-Nov-19
My opinions have nothing to do with science, or biology, or deer concentrations. They have everything to do with HOW I decide to kill a wild animal, and to what lengths I will go to increase my advantage over my quarry. My most cherished kills have been those in which I had the least advantage.

But I recognize that every hunter has different motivations.

Matt

From: BIG BEAR
11-Nov-19
I’ve killed a grand total of 2 deer on my 20 acres in Michigan’s U.P. in 10 years of owning the property ,,,, Man O man,,, That bait sure has given me an unfair and unethical advantage..... I need to make it more challenging..... I should be ashamed of the unfair advantage I have been using....... sheesh.

I’ve drawn about 5 bear tags between myself and my buddy on the property.... and killed one bear over bait....... Yet another unfair and unethical advantage that bear bait has brought us....

From: Grey Ghost
11-Nov-19
Chris,

I've always respected your views and values, tho they may differ slightly from mine. This subject is no different. There's no right or wrong answer here. Everyone has to draw their own line, somewhere, on what lengths they'll take to kill wild animals, and what satisfaction they derive from it.

Matt

From: BIG BEAR
11-Nov-19
Thanks Matt...... Baiting for deer is obviously a hot topic that divides hunters..... To a little lesser extent so is running bears with hounds. They even run deer with hounds in parts of the country...... it’s all good with me. Peace.

From: timex
11-Nov-19
I live In one of the top small grains producing county's in the state of VIRGINIA so the entire damn county is a food plot now that said in the early season I personally feel that there's no better attractant than a patch of whiteoaks dropping acorns & this goes especially for regions with harsh winters I'm all for anything that benifets the health of the deer heard if that happens to concentrate animals to a location that they are hunted so be it as long as the health of the deer heard is the first priority. even though I'm very uneducated on the subject if I had exclusive rights to a large tract of land I'd look into mineral stations to benefit the health of the herd but in regions with harsh winters a 20 acre corn or been field left standing may be the difference between the local herd starving or not

11-Nov-19
Big Bear,,,, we should hook up, are you going to be up this week? lots of deer

From: BIG BEAR
11-Nov-19
Michael....... I haven’t been to my place up in the Yooper in a bit...... I bought my retirement house in the spring.... a log cabin in the woods in southern Michigan...... No baiting allowed there...... I’ve been there every weekend all year.... and ran into some health problems with my heart and had 3 stents put in me on Friday.... I’m up and doing great.... be back to work in 2 weeks..... I’ll be at my new house on Friday.... Maybe someday we’ll have a beer...... Peace.

From: Ambush
12-Nov-19

Ambush's embedded Photo
Can this be? Over corn?
Ambush's embedded Photo
Can this be? Over corn?

From: K Cummings
12-Nov-19
Whether one agrees with the practice or not, banning bait with the intent of reducing disease transmission between deer makes about as much sense (and will be about as effective) as banning doorknobs with the intent of reducing the spread of the flu between humans, or banning guns with the intent of protecting children from mass shootings. It is feel good legislation at best and might even prove to be counter productive.

The notion that if you don't agree with the bait ban you must not care about deer is akin to saying that if you don't agree with a gun ban, you must not care about children, or if you don't agree with a ban on fossil fuels, you must not care about the planet.

As is often the case factions have no problem manipulating "science" in an attempt to achieve a specific, often selfish outcome.

KPC

From: BIG BEAR
12-Nov-19
Exactly Kevin..... The vast majority of the guys arguing against baiting for deer were arguing against it long before CWD was even an issue.

From: Grey Ghost
12-Nov-19
Chris, or anybody who feels like answering.....Why do you choose to hunt with a bow?

My answer is because it's more challenging and ultimately more rewarding than rifle hunting. Baiting goes against the grain of why I bow hunt. It has nothing to do with CWD for me.

Matt

12-Nov-19
Always a hot and entertaining topic. I am with Grey Ghost on my baiting views for deer. I have no issue with others doing it just not for me, same with bear however I went on a cougar hunt this year using dogs. Double standard? Some may say so and that's why it boils down to what is legal and what motivates and excites us when we hunt. I don't believe the DNR understands or has proven that baiting has any effect on CWD spread so to ban it for that reason is a crock in my opinion

12-Nov-19
Lets pose this to a third grade class. If too many deer are at the foods sources, is it best to decrease the available food sources, or increase the available food sources?

From: BIG BEAR
12-Nov-19
I choose to hunt with a bow because like Fred Bear promoted.... I can be a two season hunter. I like hunting in October. I like hunting in mild weather. I like hunting before the masses of hunters start hunting.

If I’m paying the big bucks to go on a guided hunt.... It has been with a rifle every time.... Boubound can attest to that.... I shared a camp with him in Newfoundland. He was bowhunting and I was rifle hunting for caribou. Moose and elk and bear too.... I have taken with rifle.

So basically.... I bow hunt for deer in Michigan. I believe that crossbows should not be legal during bow season except for the handicap guys..... So I stick to my beliefs and continue to use my compound while my buddies have switched to crossbows........

I own several recurves...... at one time about 15 or so of them.... all Grayling Bears. I’ve hunted deer with my Fred Bear Takedown and missed a few deer.... hunted bear with it but didn’t see a bear that year. I haven’t hunted with it in a while because putting some venison in the freezer is more important to me than doing it the hard way. Maybe some day I’ll try again.

I’m just a hunter who has hanged out on the Bowsite for about 25 years. Met a lot of good folks over on the Michigan Forums and shared campfires with them at Benefit 4 Kids events,,,before all the bickering over baiting and crossbows turned that forum into a ghost town. Shame.

From: K Cummings
12-Nov-19
"The vast majority of the guys arguing against baiting for deer were arguing against it long before CWD was even an issue."

Of course they were Big Bear.

Ironically, some of the same folks who fancy themselves "habitat managers" have no problem utilizing various other methods such as mineral licks, mock scrapes, food plots, and other various methods that encourage nose, urine, and saliva contact between multiple deer.

KPC

From: BIG BEAR
12-Nov-19
My turn Matt.......

Why would a guy choose to hunt with a compound bow over a traditional bow ??

Why would a guy choose to hunt with a shotgun for turkeys..... or for that matter,,, Rabbits or squirrels or grouse or any other critters.... instead of a traditional bow ??

From: Matte
12-Nov-19
Take a corn pile hunter ELk hunting on a diy hunt and see how many years it takes them to figure it out. If it is legal well then ok it is legal, but as we go down that road hunters loose the crucial instinct of how to hunt, read sign and anticipate movement. I am ok with those that loose that skill as they will not be where I am at or wanting to be at.

From: Grey Ghost
12-Nov-19
Fair question, Chris. Like I said earlier, everyone has to draw their own line somewhere. I only hunt big game with a compound bow. I’m trying to get proficient enough with my recurve, but I’m not there yet.

There may come a time when I use my boom sticks, again, dunno. But I’ll never hunt over bait. I just don’t need to kill that badly.

Matt

From: BIG BEAR
12-Nov-19
And that’s a fair answer too Matt. But just because I bait when I can.... don’t assume that it makes it too easy for me to kill a deer or bear. I think I’ve killed about 5 deer in the last 13 years.... and one bear. I don’t see that as me having an unethical advantage.... Peace.

From: Grey Ghost
12-Nov-19
Sounds like you need to find a different hunting spot, Chris.

:-)

Matt

From: K Cummings
12-Nov-19
You bring up some interesting questions BB. In my opinion, questions that illustrate the hypocrisy and sheer folly of some opinions.

I bow hunt only with a recurve and have for decades. That's the particular "challenge" I choose. I don't necessarily do it for the "challenge" but because it's what I find fun. I like shooting a traditional bow without sights more than I like shooting a compound with them. I hunt for enjoyment, not for any other reason. I don't need to prove my skills or my woodsmanship to anyone. Why would I care what anyone else thinks. My venison tastes the same as anyone else's.

Having said that, I had no problem using bait on my property when the natural food sources were not producing or done producing. I have stands set up to hunt my apple trees and my white oak. In the years that there are no acorns or apples, I had no problem whatsoever hanging a feeder to supplement what wasn't produced naturally or was done producing naturally.

Some would have you believe that when I hunt those sources when they are producing, that's somehow different (both in terms of the health of the deer and in regard to "challenge") than when I hunt the same areas when there is a feeder present, or apples that I placed myself. Same spots, same stands, same everything...except for how the food got there. Apparently if the deer come there to eat acorns, it's healthy and if they come to the exact same spot to eat corn, it's not. Or apparently, if the deer come to eat the apples that fall from my trees, that's healthy but if they come to the exact same spot to eat apples that I put there, it's not.

Years ago I remember reading an article from a high profile traditional bow hunter about how baiting for bears was unethical and a scourge on the hunting community, and should be banned. Soon after that, the same person wrote an article about how he found an elk carcass that had been being visited by bears, set up on that carcass and proceeded to take a bear when it came in to feed.

Interesting to say the least.

KPC

From: K Cummings
12-Nov-19
BB:

In addition to what I said in my last post, some would suggest that you just need to find a better place to hunt. What they fail to realize is that the enjoyment for many is to own, and hunt their own little slice of heaven...even if it doesn't happen to be the best habitat. My cabin and property is surrounded by thousands of acres of public federal land, much of which is infinitely better habitat than what I own. Even so, I CHOOSE to hunt my own land, because that's where I find the most enjoyment. Heck, I could shoot a deer out my back door at home but I just don't need to kill that badly.

KPC

From: BIG BEAR
12-Nov-19
Exactly Kevin.... Although I believe Matt’s post was tongue in cheek......

I purchased my little slice of heaven in the U.P. and at the time it was pretty much all I could afford........ The deer hunting is terrible there,,, And the DNR made it ten times worse by outlawing the harvest of any does there. Period.

But I wouldn’t trade my memories there for anything.... Killing a bear on my own property is an especially fond memory.....

From: Grey Ghost
12-Nov-19
It was tongue-in-cheek, Chris...kinda. When I chose to buy my slice of heaven, I chose land with the best deer habitat that I could find. And I agree, it's a special treat to kill deer on your own place.

Having said that, I haven't killed a deer in 6 years. Not because of lack of opportunities. In fact, I could have killed a mature 2x3 mulie that walked under my stand about an hour ago. It's because I've set a high bar on the caliber of buck that I'll kill, and I'm OK with eating tag soup if I don't get a crack at a buck that meets those standards. I just enjoy the chess match, even if I lose more often than not.

Good discussion.

Matt

From: K Cummings
12-Nov-19
I wasn't necessarily referring to anyone in particular BB, the "find (or create) a better spot" is a common theme among certain groups.

KPC

12-Nov-19
MO does not allow placing bait for deer or turkey hunting. Any used for other purposes in a hunting area must be removed 10 days prior to the start of hunting season.

They support habitat improvement, both monetarily and through free consultations.

Talking with MDC personnel through the years I have been informed they do this for a multitude of reasons including hunter image to the non-hunting public, attempt at disease control, positive impact on a multitude of species including non-target animals, reducing hunter conflicts on both private and public land, etc.

I like their approach, but I believe MO is the only state with an 1/8 cent sales tax that directly supports wildlife conservation. Their citizens overwhelming support it each time it has been voted on.

5 deer have been taken so far this season on my farm. Two by my good bear hunting buddy, Stan, who uses a crossbow due to shoulder injury and he is 63. His first deer this season, a mature doe, came from a ladder stand we set during turkey season over a white oak patch that produces every year, at ten yards. His second deer, a mature buck this past Saturday, came off of a ladder stand on the edge of a 7 acre, 1/2 mile long winding food plot from a distance of 7 yards. The location is a popular point of entry for rutting bucks every year. That stand was also placed during turkey season. First time I have ever placed permanent stands.

My 2 anterless, first one came on the opener on a ground blind that was by my pond and where white oaks frequently drop early each year. Second one came out of a brand new stump blind, placed two weeks earlier, with my wife sitting next to me as she witnessed for the first time as I harvested a deer with a bow. I used two feeding doe decoys which brought the deer in, and now they do not fall for that set-up, They learn.

My buck also came this past Saturday. After hanging a stand in the woods in the morning in a solid travel corridor, and not observing anything, I set a new stand (XOP and sticks) for an afternoon hunt where I had been observing deer enter the far end of my plot. I had never hunted here, they had to travel from the woods through about 60 yards of CRP to enter the plot. I figured they were using this approach, one I had never observed before, because of adjusting to pressure. I witnessed 3 bucks chasing at least two does and was blest to harvest a 7 pointer that field dressed 220 lbs.

Point being, hunting food plots or bait piles, the deer adjust to pressure and successful hunters adjust to their adjustments. Now, a guy using a timed feeder is different than a bait pile that can be approached after dark, IMHO.

From: K Cummings
12-Nov-19
Good grief, this is getting ridiculous. I have literally thousands of trail cam pictures of deer visiting a feeder well after dark.

The notion/belief that because a feeder goes off at a certain time, that is also the time it is visited by wildlife shows a complete lack of understanding of how they work...or don’t work.

KPC

From: Grey Ghost
12-Nov-19
You mean like my turkeys, Kevin? You can set your watch by when they come to my barn at feeding times. They pick the ground clean, then leave, not to return until the next feeding time. Surely you've seen videos of deer literally running to timed feeders the moment they go off, haven't you? If not, I guess you've never spent much time in Texas.

Matt

From: K Cummings
12-Nov-19

12-Nov-19

Habitat for Wildlife's embedded Photo
Habitat for Wildlife's embedded Photo
Habitat for Wildlife's embedded Photo
Habitat for Wildlife's embedded Photo
Kevin,

Glad you got over not responding to me directly:-)

We had an electric timer feeder at our home property for 5-7 years, give or take. I grew tired of battery replacement, and replacing the motor one time that I went to a Boss gravity feeder. We saw more deer during the daylight with the timed feeder because it was set to go off when we usually sat out on our screened in porch in the evenings. 98 out of 100 pictures of deer on the Boss Feeder are at night. Maybe deer react differently in MI than KS? Maybe I am ridiculous for drawing a conclusion from observations without using an algorithm?

Here are recent pictures of deer using my home property at night, two nice bucks NEVER observed during the day.

From: Trial153
12-Nov-19
I see only positives by making baiting illegal

12-Nov-19

Habitat for Wildlife's embedded Photo
Habitat for Wildlife's embedded Photo
Habitat for Wildlife's embedded Photo
Habitat for Wildlife's embedded Photo
Kevin,

OTH, I regularly have pictures during the day of deer who feel comfortable using the habitat I improved, especially since we take great care to not educate them as to our patterns. Maybe I know more about feeders than you do habitat improvements? Maybe folks with a different opinion are not being ridiculous, they just draw from a different set of experiences?

The date is wrong on the second picture, the function does not work any more. This picture is from less than 5 weeks ago when I first sat the Stump 4 blind you see in the back ground.

From: K Cummings
12-Nov-19
Deer are the same everywhere I've hunted them. It doesn't matter what the food source is, whether it is a food plot, an ag field, an oak tree, an apple tree or a feeder, if a deer starts to feel pressured by human activity, they are going to start using that food source when they feel less pressure. That usually means nocturnally. If they don't feel pressure, they will use that food source whenever they feel like it. If the pressure gets too great, they might stop using it all together.

I happen to have a pic of this little guy on my phone, but it illustrates my point quite nicely. The feeder shown here was set to go off one time a day at 4 PM for 10 seconds (that equates to a little over one pound of corn, spread over a 20 foot circle).

Apparently this guy didn't get the "when to visit a feeder" memo because he visited the site a full 15 hours from the last time it went off.

This silly notion that deer only visit a feeder when it goes off, and you can set your watch by them is well, just silly. That may be true for domesticated birds, who have little to no other food source, but it sure as heck isn't true for wild, big woods deer.

KPC

From: K Cummings
12-Nov-19

K Cummings's embedded Photo
K Cummings's embedded Photo
Try posting the pic again...

From: GF
12-Nov-19
I guess I’m glad that people care as passionately as they do about this, since Baiting is one of those things that goes straight to the Heart of what we consider to be Fair Chase and Sportsmanship.

Better to disagree passionately than that nobody cares.

12-Nov-19
Was his visit to the site coincidental, or intentionally looking for feed from that source? Do big woods deer travel more or less to find food than those in mixed habitat? Your sample of one to draw a conclusion is what's silly to me.

But I agree with Matt that each hunter must decide for himself. I use a compound. I wounded and did not recover the only deer I shot with my Martin recurve. I love to shoot it, just not proficient enough no matter how much I practice, to be ethical IMO. And aesthetically, it is a much more beautiful bow than any compound I have ever owned. (But then I like wood rifles stocks better than synthetics.)

But, given your situation, property that is next to thousands of acres of good hunting, I would forgo the feeder and find them. My buck Saturday is a perfect example to me. Playing the chess game with them, and instead of sitting in a physically comfortable blind or pre-set stand, I hung a stand based off of recent observations. Taking a deer like that brings me a ton of satisfaction, and in fact for some reason tastes even better:-)

Each location we took a deer is the only time, and the first time, that location was hunted. So I agree with you that deer pattern us, and that is why I have always hung a stand every hunt until the last two. I still do it at least 50% of the time, but age is catching up to me, and the fact that the kill is just not as important any more...as long as I have enough venison to last until the next hunting season.

To each his own, and unless there is a compelling reason such as herd health concerns backed by proven science, the government should stay out of it IMHO.

From: Grey Ghost
12-Nov-19
I fail to see where anyone claimed deer only visit feeders right after they go off. Sounds like a straw man argument to me. But maybe I'm just being "silly" and "ridiculous".

I have seen deer literally running to a timed feeder when it went off, however. Pavlov would have been proud.

BTW, my "domesticated" birds have plenty of other food sources. They just prefer the easy pickings around my barn at feeding times. And when they get 50 yards away from my barn, they are just as alert and spooky as any other wild turkeys.

Matt

From: BIG BEAR
12-Nov-19
GF..... If all of the guys that hate baiting so much would spend half as much effort to put the high fence canned hunt operations out of business..... Then they might actually be making a difference in the fight against CWD. Those canned hunt high fence operations are what brought CWD to Michigan..... And now we have invasive feral hogs thanks to those operations.......

From: K Cummings
12-Nov-19
"I fail to see where anyone claimed deer only visit feeders right after they go off. Sounds like a straw man argument to me. But maybe I'm just being "silly" and "ridiculous"."

Not to mention a complete lack of comprehension skills.

"You mean like my turkeys, Kevin? You can set your watch by when they come to my barn at feeding times. They pick the ground clean, then leave, not to return until the next feeding time. Surely you've seen videos of deer literally running to timed feeders the moment they go off, haven't you?

"Point being, hunting food plots or bait piles, the deer adjust to pressure and successful hunters adjust to their adjustments. Now, a guy using a timed feeder is different than a bait pile that can be approached after dark..."

KPC

From: Grey Ghost
12-Nov-19
Close your bold text, Kevin.

Speaking of comprehension skills...apparently the concept of wild game becoming conditioned to come to man-placed bait piles at times and in places they wouldn't normally be looking for food is hard for some to grasp. Equally hard, apparently, is the fact that baiting deer significantly improves the odds of seeing and killing deer no matter where you hunt. Do you honestly think Pat would have his impressive wall of Kansas "trophies" if his outfitter didn't bait?

Look, I've stated several times that it's an individual's choice to bait or not, assuming its legal. I'm glad Colorado doesn't allow it. I've hunted Kansas a bunch and never baited there either. That's my choice.

Matt

From: K Cummings
12-Nov-19
Boy, talk about a straw man argument.

Like I said, this is getting silly.

Every man made food source conditions deer Einstein, and they all improve a hunter's odds of seeing and taking a deer. It doesn't matter if its a feeder, a food plot, a fruit tree or an ag field. Do you think it's merely a coincidence that in H for W has deer stands on the edge and literally in the middle of his man made food sources. Do you think they would be there if he didn't plant that field just for that purpose?

Give us a break.

When you find yourself in a hole GG, it's usually a good idea to stop digging.

KPC

From: Grey Ghost
12-Nov-19
No hole here, Kevin. Your argument that a bait pile is the same as any other man-made food source is what's silly. Have you ever tried hunting mule deer that feed in a 100 acre alfalfa field? Suggesting that's the same as sitting over a bait pile and waiting for conditioned deer to come to it is laughable.

Matt

From: BIG BEAR
12-Nov-19
What about a one acre plot Matt ?? One acre plots aren’t planted for the benefit of the deer or by a farmer...... They’re planted to kill deer over. They’re even called kill plots...... It’s rich man’s baiting.......

From: K Cummings
12-Nov-19

12-Nov-19
Matt, same behavior we observed from Kevin on the CF...double down on personal insults whenever his views are challenged. Come on Kevin!

Stating my observations were Robin and I saw more deer during daylight hours when we used a timed feeder over a multi-year period as compared to what we observed now using a gravity feeder is the same as claiming deer always come to the sound of a feeder some how makes either of us in possession of reading comprehension deficiencies? OK, LOL!

Matt, you are correct about a feeder not being the same as a plot or ag field IMO. The clover observed in the picture above is 4 acres of the 7 discussed. It would take a lot of blinds/stands to cover that 4 acres with the same density as Kevin's feeder that throws 20'. The distance from the Stump to the Hay Bale is well in excess of 100 yards, well beyond my archery abilities on a live animal. And notice, the deer have multiple choices, planted corn, edge habitat, acorns, clover etc. Those pictures were used intentionally.

Kevin, if there is no advantage to a timed feeder, why use it? Does it go off after dark, or a short time after you enter your stand? BTW, the clover is there 24/7, the deer have it available whether anyone is hunting or not. I am not stupid, nor lacking in reading comprehension skills. There is a big difference IMHO as to what you do versus my approach. I still believe you have every right to take your approach.

One last honest question, does your approach benefit more or less wildlife than the target animals you seek versus habitat improvements. For example, do bees or hummingbirds visit your corn pile/broadcast regularly?

It is admirable that you have been proficient for decades with traditional equipment. I tip my hat to you. Peace!

From: K Cummings
12-Nov-19

K Cummings's embedded Photo
K Cummings's embedded Photo
Good luck BB, GG will continue to move the goal posts until people tire of playing his silly game. I'm at that point now.

If food plots weren't designed to up the odds for seeing and killing deer, I wonder what the blinds in this picture are for?

With all the crap that's being strewn around here, maybe those are out houses,... or hummingbird blinds.

:)

KPC

From: JTV
12-Nov-19
fantastic .. the CF IS back !! ................ ;0)

From: BIG BEAR
12-Nov-19
Kevin.... Those deer are well within range of the far blind come gun season.

12-Nov-19
Chris, Except there is no gun hunting allowed.

Talk about moving the goal posts! Where did I ever say I don't use blinds or stands with man made habitat manipulations? Stands are used in TSI areas, edge layered areas, blinds in CRP etc...

Yet you want to have us believe this is the same as hunting over a feeder. Sure.

12-Nov-19
And notice, no response to when that feeder goes off. Distract and ...

From: Grey Ghost
12-Nov-19
"What about a one acre plot Matt ??"

Unless you can shoot your bow accurately across a one acre food plot, it certainly is different than hunting over a bait pile. But I wouldn't hunt a one acre food plot either

I've killed exactly one buck off of a 6 acre clover plot that was planted specifically for the deer. Nothing about that kill felt right to me, so I've never done it since. Even trail cameras seem a bit like cheating to me, so I don't use those either.

And again, that's just my definition of fair chase hunting. I fully recognize that you may have a different definition.

From: BIG BEAR
12-Nov-19
Matt.... I respect your definition of fair chase hunting and Frank’s incredible efforts at Habitat management and improvements.... really......

But I’ll bet you that 9 out of 10 food plots just like the one in Kevin’s picture are in fact gun hunted at some point. The person or people who did the work to put the plot in as well as the blinds.... are going to kill some deer there. Period. Or else they won’t be putting that same effort in next year. Owning something like what is in Kevin’s picture is way more of a sure bet to kill a deer than hunting bait in my 20 acres in the U.P. of Michigan.

Owning something like in Kevin’s picture takes lots of time and lots of money.

From: JL
12-Nov-19
If it's any consolation....I was just watching Lee and Tiffi's show and he was hunting over one of his corn fields yet threw out some ear corn in front of his stand. I was thinking hopefully his quiver-lickers don't turn on him for double baiting. :^()

From: BIG BEAR
12-Nov-19
And if Lee doesn’t get the buck he’s after with his bow every year. He’ll dump one with a scoped muzzleloader...... One of his million dollar giants...... I’m not hating...... just jealous.

From: JL
12-Nov-19
I would say he/she is living the dream.....but I'm not so sure anymore. I don't think I'd want to live from deer to deer or hunting show to hunting show.

From: JTV
12-Nov-19
Booooooo on Lee ....... ;0) .................... lick lick ........

From: BIG BEAR
12-Nov-19
Me either John. I have no desire to put that kind of effort and money into farming and hunting... but I’d sure like to hunt his place for a week :-)

From: JL
12-Nov-19
BB....it's not so much the effort or money spent but the day to day stress of having to produce hunting shows where ya have to kill something to keep your sponsors/fans happy and the TV show afloat.

12-Nov-19
Chris,

Just stating facts, please don't take this wrong...

I killed 5 deer last year, all with bow. I think you said that is what you killed in the last ten years on your place?

That is the lowest number I have taken in one year, by far, over more than the last 20 years. I don't gun hunt, not that I am against it at all. I just don't need to, and find no enjoyment from it. Like my approach on Saturday, I have enough confidence I can find them.

My habitat allows me to see, and sure, pattern more game. It is always more fun to see it. But, maybe 6 deer for me in the 13 seasons I have owned the farm have come off the plots. The vast majority are me moving around in the timber, based on wind, thermals, rut stage etc. Most of my deer in the last 20 came from property I did not own and was not allowed to leave stands up. Nor was it managed. All timber drainages into a creek with some agriculture. I lost that property 2 years ago. The hunters now use corn piles, and have less success. Not bragging, just facts.

From: Grey Ghost
12-Nov-19
Chris,

Our differences may be due to where we hunt. The vast majority of my bow kills have been on the ground in spot and stalk situations. There's nothing quite like crawling thru hundreds of yards of knee-high cover to kill a buck I've had my eyes on for several weeks, if not years. I do use stands and blinds when conditions aren't conducive to spot and stalk, but I don't enjoy it as much.

If I lived in Michigan, I may have a different opinion on bait piles and small kill plots. I'm just happy I've never had to resort to that to kill animals.

Matt

From: BIG BEAR
12-Nov-19
Frank...... You had better success hunting a parcel of land without bait than the guys who hunt it now with bait. Cool. So there should be no beef with the bait hunters. I don’t claim to be a great deer hunter.... I just tell you how I enjoy hunting. It’s all good in my view.

This Friday I hope to see one wandering through my property in southern Michigan inside of about 75 yards so I can put some venison in the freezer with a shotgun.

12-Nov-19
I never had a beef with any legal hunter. I just encourage habitat improvements, and believe this approach is a win-win for hunters and wildlife.

Good luck Friday! MO rifle season begins Saturday and I will bow hunt wearing orange. Like you, I just enjoy hunting.

From: Grey Ghost
12-Nov-19
I'm just happy Kevin has tucked tail and run off when his views are challenged...as usual. That's almost as gratifying as killing a buck under real fair chase conditions.

;-)

Matt

From: RK
12-Nov-19
I agree Matt. Like catching a tarpon where there is no bait around or where they are not supposed to be. Truly awesome

From: Grey Ghost
12-Nov-19
Oh boy, don't get me started on tarpon. I've landed plenty on bait, but never on a fly to my disgrace, but I'm working on it...

;-)

Matt

From: RK
12-Nov-19
Lmao. I've never caught one on bait , only flies or lures.

Caught them in Florida, Texas, Mexico and South America

Years ago I went on the Tarpon quest. Was going to catch the new world record. DID NOT. LMAO!

caught some good ones but nothing close to a record. Texas 201 lbs. Florida 195 lbs México ??? Not sure. 91 inches 49 inch girth. South America maybe 150 lbs

Good times. Still fish for them here but quest is over. Off to something new

From: Grey Ghost
12-Nov-19
RK,

When can we fish together? LOL.

Matt

13-Nov-19
Matt,

Kevin's "logic" falls apart when he will not answer when his feeder goes off. We all know it is not at night. Good grief is right, LOL.

Again though, I don't care what a guy legally uses to bring venison home.

From: Grey Ghost
13-Nov-19
Frankie,

At least we know Kevin is equally likable when discussing hunting topics as he is when talking politics.

;-)

Matt

From: BIG BEAR
13-Nov-19
Too bad I’ll be hunting in the shotgun only zone on Friday or I’d bust out my 30-06,,,,,,,,,,, Now that’s fair chase.

From: sitO
13-Nov-19
I've noticed the "No Community Forum for Old Men" is causing issues on several threads ;?)

From: 320 bull
13-Nov-19
BB no 450? Sorry I had to:) It is good to read all the opinions here for sure. Good luck

From: K Cummings
13-Nov-19
Good luck and be careful down there BB. Things can get pretty crazy in the shotgun zone. Some of these guys have no idea what hunting pressure is like.

:)

KPC

From: Grey Ghost
13-Nov-19
Blast a big one, Chris

Matt

From: BIG BEAR
13-Nov-19
Thanks Matt..... The nice thing about my house in Southern Michigan is that I can shoot whatever I want. I have a doe permit in my pocket. On my property in the U.P.,, The DNR outlawed does about 3 years ago for all weapons.... and enacted antler point restrictions.......

I still live in the city.... and spend weekends out at our new house which is only about an hour from Detroit. When my wife and I retire,, We’re moving out there for good and selling the house in the city.

From: BIG BEAR
13-Nov-19

BIG BEAR's embedded Photo
BIG BEAR's embedded Photo
Home.

From: JL
13-Nov-19
BB....when you retire, have you considered selling everything, leave Michigan and move west to WY, MT or one of those better states out there?

From: BIG BEAR
13-Nov-19

BIG BEAR's embedded Photo
BIG BEAR's embedded Photo
2 little bucks from the kitchen window eating the wife’s plants.

From: BIG BEAR
13-Nov-19
Nope John.... We bought a house within a half hour of our oldest daughter.... She’s going to be making babies soon hopefully. Married a few years and 26 years old.

From: K Cummings
13-Nov-19

K Cummings's embedded Photo
K Cummings's embedded Photo
"We bought a house within a half hour of our oldest daughter.... She’s going to be making babies soon hopefully. Married a few years and 26 years old."

Good on you BB!

There is much more to life than shooting deer of any kind. It is obvious that to some, "tradition" and "home" are infinitely more important than finding or building better deer hunting property.

I have hunted what many would consider to be some of the best deer producing habitat in the nation and I can say, without equivocation, that I would not trade any of it with the opportunity to sit in a stand, overlooking our own marginal deer hunting habitat (with the aid of a feeder if need be) with this young lady.

KPC

From: BIG BEAR
13-Nov-19
That’s the thing Kevin.... It’s all good and it just doesn’t get any better than that right there..... Guys like JTV who thumbs his nose at guys who don’t hunt like him and looks down upon us just don’t get that. They simply don’t understand that you enjoy hunting as much as he does. Not everyone has to be the great white big buck deer hunter.

Peace everyone and enjoy the rest of the season. Winter has come early. 6 degrees here overnight and about 8 inches of snow on the ground. We usually don’t have much snow before Christmas.

From: JL
13-Nov-19
BB....I hear ya. We've been blessed to have lived in alot of places around the country and in PR. Seen alot more. When we bought our house in TVC in 1994 back when they were "cheap", I figured this was the place to be after retirement. Fast forward 25 years....this place and Michigan has changed quite a bit and not for the better IMO. Our oldest daughter and her hubby live here and she is scheduled to drop twins in April or May. Even with that, I (not so much the wife) would like to live the rest of my earthly years out west in the mountains and snowbird in FL. To me...some of those western states have fewer people, better hunting, better scenery, alot of elbow room and less regs/laws all in one. Will it happen...I don't know but it is a goal to shoot for.

13-Nov-19
Chris, I wish you the best as well. I did three deer seasons in MI, hunted the shotgun only zone when we lived in BC and have hunted the rifle zone of the LP as well. I have first hand experience with "pressure", and was still successful. Good fortune no doubt granted to me from above.

Matt said;

"At least we know Kevin is equally likable when discussing hunting topics as he is when talking politics. "

Kevin is a smart guy who no doubt has his share of friends, and like many probably has a different approach in person than he does on the www. He just can't help taking his veiled shots at folks who disagree with him, like he has done in his last two posts. I assume all of us put family before everything else in life, except for God. But we come here to discuss our passions that relate to hunting. Maybe a good suggestion is to make less assumptions about people, and let's all follow Chris's lead and be able to disagree, agreeably.

From: Grey Ghost
13-Nov-19
"Maybe a good suggestion is to make less assumptions about people, and let's all follow Chris's lead and be able to disagree, agreeably."

Now you're just being silly and ridiculous, Einstein.

;-)

Matt

13-Nov-19
LOL! Thanks.

From: BIG BEAR
13-Nov-19
Thanks Frank... You’re a good man. Keep up the amazing habitat work you do.

From: Bowbender
13-Nov-19

Bowbender's embedded Photo
Bowbender's embedded Photo
"...and let's all follow Chris's lead and be able to disagree, agreeably."

From: K Cummings
13-Nov-19
:)

KPC

From: c5ken
16-Nov-19
FYI Michigan Senate-GOP controlled voted 21-14 recently to lift the deer-baiting ban after it cleared the house. However, the Gov. (Gretchen Whitmer-Dem.) remains opposed to signing the bill....

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