Contributors to this thread:
Contemplating getting one they have good deals right now just dont know if there worth it. Anyone use one and what's your thoughts
Worth its weight in gold. Been using it for a few years now and have had incredible encounters when I may not have without it. I believe in being a scent control freak when persuing whitetail deer as there nose is there number one sense. I have the HR 300. One thing I’d like to suggest is to get at least one extra XXL battery. Preferably 2 so you can switch them out. The battery that comes with it is ok but dies after 4-5 hours. The XXL batteries last longer In the tree
Science says its mostly a placebo in such a diluted form but many believe in it. I believe in Nose Jammer and many are skeptical of that too.
I think in a ground blind it works. In a tree stand? No I’ll stick with the nose jammer too.
I have used it effectively on many occasions but you still have to be very conscious of everything going into your scent setup.
How do you know it’s good deal if you don’t know if it’s worth it or not
What Grubby said......and the wind is sometimes fickle. You can somewhat control that in a blind but you cannot be changing the direction of the unit all the time in a tree. Deer have eyes as well as noses.
And if you say it doesn’t work, how do you know if you’ve never used it ?
Ok, I'll bite. How does nose jammer actually work? Is it a cover scent or something else?
Wife and I each have the Radial B400, they work to kill odor. They make a slight sound but I had 6 bucks walk by at 15 yards before I shot the biggest one at 15 yards plus they were down wind of me.
Ozone absolutely works. I use o3 on a nearly daily basis at work to remove odor from structure. Ozoning your clothes should work well. Ozonics in a tree stand, maybe. I just don’t know how concentrated it could be out of a small machine like that. If it would produce enough ozone to essentially eat up all the scent you produce.
I have the one from ScentLok (actually I have 2 - got them at a local Gander Mountain that was going out of business at 50% off). I use them in plastic bins to scent wash my hunting clothes while I'm not wearing them. It definitely takes the odor out. I posted a longer version of this on another thread here a couple of months back. It killed all of the odor on my son's hockey gear after doing the same thing with a bigger bin.
I bought a Scentlok ozone bag. It definitely makes my stuff smell like ozone. The verdict is still out on it for me. I am concerned it might wreck my clothes. And clothes aren't cheap. If I find it does that bag is gone. It is a nice bag though. As far as the units you bring out with you in the blind/treestand, I have only one experience with it. Hunted in a ground blind next to a rye field with a buddy's ozone unit. Deer came out downwind and definitely became alarmed. But they still continued into the field. But they angled away from us. Have other friends that swear by them up in their treestands if the wind isn't too strong or shifty.
“Ok, I'll bite. How does nose jammer actually work? Is it a cover scent or something else?”
The way I understand it, is Nose Jammer is an extremely concentrated dose of a scent that deer don’t associate danger with. Once they have it in their nostrils it makes it hard for them to identify much else. The way I think of it is if I’ve ever been shopping with my wife and she asks me a smell perfumes, after the 3rd one they all smell the same because my senses are overloaded. I use Nose Jammer consistently. I have video of deer entering my scent stream, clearly picking it up, stopping and kinda going “what the heck” but more often than not they will either continue on, or nervously decide to go elsewhere. But it rarely turns into a snorting fiasco. It doesn’t mean you “don’t need to hunt the wind” but sometimes deer get on the wrong side of you and I don’t think it will hurt more than it helps
I think it's been settled that using ozonics on your hunting clothes in a closed container does in fact work, but hanging one in a tree is mostly a waste of time because they don't put out enough ozone to make a difference. If they did, it would be a health risk.
M Paul’s you are exactly right. I have an old doe that busted me last year she never forgot I hunt with a northwest wind she leaves the trail every time I am in stand. And comes around the back side of me. She knows something isn’t right but she never blew or turned around this year. I do not go into the woods ever without it on. Kinda smells like you just came from a carnival but it does work. I run an ozonics to.
Do you spray nose jammer on yourself, or on the environment around you?
Spray it around you. I spray my boots and pant legs before the walk in too. I have had deer follow my trail to the stand. It's crazy how it works!
I put it on myself. My wife drew a gun tag this year we set up a blind for her. Second to last day of season the wind switched to sw blowing right across trail had blind set up 90 yds from it. We had no choice but to sit there I sprayed the whole outside of it. Inside around all the windows and us. We were running a buddy heater she passed up three bucks and two doe’s with fawns before she killed a 127 inch buck all of those deer came down wind of us going from east to west not one of those deer became alarmed true believer.
Hdaman- nosejammer is vanilla at a much higher price
Seems to me nose jammer would have a placebo affect in such a diluted form but if you think it works, then it works.
I don’t spray myself. I soak the tree bark of my tree
I have been sitting in a treestand and had a good buck come by me directly downwind and not ever notice I was there. I was not using Nosejammer or an Ozonics. What made that possible? Maybe the wind was actually carrying my scent up and out of range of the deer's nose!!! If I had been using any type of scent eliminating gizmo I would obviously have attributed it to the device/product.
Anecdotal evidence does not prove a product is effective. The science on Ozonics is pretty well settled but it's your money and if you think it works go for it!
Years ago I bit on the whole "no-scent" thing. No scent clothes, sprays, detergents, soaps, shampoos, deodorants....etc... I was anal about my no-scent routine. Over time, I realized that all that nonsense made absolutely no difference in my hunting success. It just added extra time and expense to my hunting enjoyment.
Cover scents, on the other hand, have proven themselves over and over in my experience. They often serve as an attractant to curious animals. I once had a spike elk stick his nose in my ear, and drool on my shoulder, after I had sprayed Essence of Fall all over myself. Heck, even camp fire smoke, cigarette smoke, or snuff seems to serve as a cover scent/attractant. I'm a bit embarrassed to admit that I shot my buck this year with a lit cig hanging out of my mouth. Moments later, while I was collecting my gear to crawl out of my stand, I had does come in directly downwind seemingly unalarmed. They spooked only after I lowered my bow to the ground.
That said, if you believe all the no-scent stuff works, and it gives you added confidence while hunting, then it certainly doesn't hurt.
We use them for bears and I am a firm believe it gives us an edge.
Nose Jammer is not "vanilla". It does contain vanillin along with some other highly concentrated natural substances. But sniff a bottle of pure vanilla and then spray some NJ on your hand, and they smell nothing like each other. I used to use vanilla back in the day. The difference in effectiveness is incomparable.
I spray it on my clothes and pack when elk hunting. Deer hunting on the ground from natural blinds, I spray it on logs on either side. In a Double Bull I spray it all around the open shooting window. Anyone who has followed my live muley hunts have seen near point-blank photos of bucks I've called in from straight downwind, noses twitching curiously.
animals sometimes just don't care. it's just the game you see that you can draw conclusions from.................. many times you will see the one's that don't care and you will never see the one's that do.
Bou, very true. Where I hunt muleys, I can see everything in every direction for a loooong way. I have seen them react adversely to doe in heat scents sometimes, so I stopped using that years ago. If Ozonics would give me one, it would be interesting to try on the ground in the "open" blinds I hunt from. But not going to pay that $ just to find out.
Jaquomo, It is proven that ozone kills bacteria. I would suggest that you purchase one and actually try it while hunting your method of choice. If it doesn't work you could always sell it just like any other piece of hunting equipment that you tried and moved on from just like the rest of us. Or,, you could keep it and remove unwanted odors from your house or car or rest room. It is a useful tool that does work. You can, Like I did and buy a commercial unit for around $69.99 that produces 6000mg. of ozone to try on your hunting clothes. It is very strong and the type you don't want in your lungs. It completely vaporized the smoke smell in my garage and hunting clothes where I used to use a bee hive smoker to smoke my hunting clothes. I was amazed the first time I used it!
Went to field and stream and looked at one... man who worked there bragged on them, 400 plus $$$ He said if don’t work I’ll refund. Took to place in Boone Cty Ky I hunt which has lots of deer... we bait them. In blind down wind of deer.... yearlings did come in and eat then left looking back at blind, came in again left.... this went on for 45mins. They knew something wasn’t right?
Then momma came in and all over ...gone.
Hour later young deer came in 15 mins. Later more mature deer, once in scent line, gone!!!
Hour later before dark a few lol deer came in and fed, started looking at blind then because they were there a few more mature deer came in, again once hit scent line gone!!!
Yes it was set up correctly in blind and was adjusted slightly each time deer spiked off to be sure.
Went back to field and stream and got my 400 back.
Don’t work friend.
Gimp, I don't think Jaq was implying ozone is a sham. He was saying that is not concentrated enough coming out of the small machine to make it effective. I am in the same boat, though I've never used an Ozonics machine (again I side with Jaq - if I got one for free or heavily discounted I would love to try it out). Just professional ozone machines in my work place - where it's extremely concentrated for hours at a time.
I didn't imply that he said it was a sham. Simply that if he is courious enough to try for free why not support an outdoor equipment manufacture and just try one.
I've said I use nose jammer religiously because it may give you the second or two you need to make a shot before a mature buck bolts at your scent. Witness exhibit A above^^ This buck came in behind me and was going to pass my stand downwind of me. The first possible shooting lane I had to make the shot was also exactly where my scent stream was blowing as verified by my puffer bottle and some milk weed I had grabbed. I knew that he would wind me when he got into that shooting lane. As he approached I drew and waited for him to step into the opening. When he hit the opening and the scent stream you could tell there was a moment's confusion as to what he smelled and that's when my arrow zipped through him. I believe 100% that if this buck had hit that scent stream as he entered my shooting window he immediately would have turned himself inside out without the nose jammer and I'd have a story about the one that got away instead of a trophy photo. Best $8 I'll ever spend and will continue to use it as long as its available.
Tobpitbull, just to clarify, you say you were in a blind down wind of the deer and they smelled you. How in hell did they get in your scent line if you were downwind of them ?
When it comes to the sense of smell I think we humans are essentially blind compared to deer and therefore we cannot really interpret the effectiveness of any of these products ourselves and can only do it through observation of the reaction of the deer themselves. There are so many variables in any individual encounter that we can't monitor that we don't really know when things helped out and only sometimes know when things fail.
I have used scent reduction sprays, Nose Jammer, Scent Lok, and Ozonics and I believe they help to some degree just because the number of times I get scented by deer has dropped since employing them but they definitely are not close to 100% effective. I subjectively think that of these that Ozonics is the most effective but it is also the biggest pain in the backside; it is a heavy, noisy , takes time to setup, and you have to be able to recharge the batteries. I can understand why people like the simplicity of "Just hunt the wind"; but the wind direction is not always constant and therefore it is not 100% effective.
I guess you have to decide for yourself if the some improvement is worth the cost and the hassle. I do suggest going all in or don't bother.
And "always hunt the Wind" and the right topography really helps too.
$8 beats the hell out of $250-$400 for ozone. I'll give the old Nose Jammer a try.
Remember when skunk screen was the go to remedy for a deer nose! Things just come and go with time.
Gimp, I don't really feel the need to use Ozonics unless they make a hat I can try when hunting elk. Most all my gear for the past 10+ years comes gratis, so if Ozonics wants to give me one to try/keep/endorse I'd be happy to do it. Otherwise I'll keep on killing big stuff with Nose Jammer and dumb and happy with the results.. :-)
So you get free Nose Jammer?
Ha, seriously, no I don't get free Nose Jammer. Not even a hat. And they've gotten a lot of free advertising from me in articles and elsewhere. But a $13 can lasts me a whole season, I can carry it in my hunting pack, and it works.
All gimmicks but whatever makes you happy. You are making somebody wealthy.
You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink the proof is in the back straps.
Slate, here's a challenge for you: post up some pics of mature bucks inside 20 yards directly downwind, taken at ground level (NOT trail cam pics). Show us what you've got. If you've followed my live hunts you've seen dozens of photos I've taken on the ground while on the hunt, some at point blank range. So post them up.
Topper- vanilla is even cheaper and will work just as good, all things being equal. Contrary to the name, nosejammer is not jamming a mature bucks nose. If it did you could douse yourself in it and hunt any wind. You would smell nice, kinda like vanilla
A lot depends on the animal and where you hunt. I hunt whitetails and I can honestly say the whitetails in Kansas, Nebraska, Iowa and a few other states let me get away with less scent control than the NY whitetail I hunt. I believe Ozone can and does work and use a high out put machine for my clothes and gear but the units that folks take to the trees do not in my opinion put out enough Ozone to make much of a difference at all. Nosejammer is different, I have had ok results with it in the Midwest and plains states but here in the Northeast none
It actually has spooked deer many times that I have tried to use it. Shawn
I have to agree with it depends on the animal. A few times, Nose Jammer, absolutely worked on a mature doe and separately with real nice decent buck. Both deer smelled it instantly and they seemed to become preoccupied with it. On another occasion though, I had a mature buck smell it and he quietly back peddled out of my range, mostly to do with this "new smell" I can only guess. Its a risk I guess.
I probably use Ozonics in a ground blind, but if the wind is over 8-10 MPH, I'm not sure I could have confidence in it, but then again, If I shot a "Booner" with one, I guess I would.
Have fun all
I am going to try that nose jammer for late season...... I am too mobile of a hunter to us an ozonics, but who knows............ my best defense is usually milk weed pod, or my bic lighter for watching the wind..........................
The Radial 400 B is about the size of a 32 ounce tumbler and weighs a couple pounds. battery lasts for about 6 hours on high. Just hang it in the tree with you or set it on the ground or hang in a bush. Doesn't matter if it's hanging downwind or upwind of you.
Good for you Lou. Like I said whatever makes you happy. I do very well not wasting money and time on all the gimmicks. I hunt the wind and enjoy my own success.
I feel the real question is does any of it work on Alabama bucks?!?!? All this talk of NY deer, Midwest deer, mule deer. They are all nothing compared to an Alabama buck!
Ha, get the popcorn! https://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5790435
JTreeman and I recently did some extensive field testing on Nosejammer’s effectiveness on Sitka blacktails on Kodiak island. One of us used Nosejammer and one did not. Our results were pretty telling.
Just like any cover scent, use it untill the game associates it with humans and your done. Those that say hunt the wind well the cover scent isn't for up wind game it's to prevent spooking down wind game. Hunt the wind guys don't care what down wind game does when it smells them? Ozone is more powerful than bleach for killing odor and can never be associates with human presence.
Another "Nose Jammer" buck shot from on the ground a little over a week ago at 15 yards when he and his does were straight downwind. No batteries, no 2 pound box to lug around while hunting on the move, no treestand thermal help to carry the scent past him. Use what you believe in. But anybody who thinks Nose Jammer is just "vanilla" hasn't actually smelled it.
Very nice Lou keep on jamming.
Congratulations Lou. Has mostly to do with your hunting skills!
I have not bought any scent or scent products in years. But off this thread and a few others I decided I would try the NoseJammer. I know how the thermals work in several areas on my property. I have enough deer on my property that most places I hunt I will have deer on all sides of me at some point. I cannot sit anywhere in high movement periods without having deer downwind and blowing at some point. It is just the way my topography and the number of deer in my area work (both bad and good). My observations are that: 1) Without a doubt it does have an impact on deer spooking. More good than bad.
2) I have had several deer bed 60 yards away downwind for an hour plus. I have checked the wind with floaty thingies and know my wind is going to the deer. These deer never spooked. In the past I would get away with this for, at best 10 minutes.
3) I have had deer in my scent line, head up, walking in circles. They almost seem confused more than curious. But I am reluctant to apply human emotions to a critter.
4) I have had a small percent of deer downwind not even seemingly stop to smell but immediately flip around and run like they were bit by a snake. Last Wednesday morning was a high movement day. I saw somewhere between 20 and 25 deer within bow range. 8 reacted to smell, 4 of these calmed down and went on with their travel, 2 nervously switched directions and two did as i mentioned earlier and turned inside out instantly vacating the area (but did not blow).
Where I am (in SC), our winds are usually not consistent for very long and our deer actually teach a wariness course to Alabama TBM deer.
I will not say I am sold on NoseJammer yet...but I believe it is worth me using further.
Lou-if I was selling vanilla to hunters to help jam their scent I would add some secret ingredient to it also so that they couldn’t just go buy straight vanilla themselves.
1boonr, of course. I was in big league marketing and sales for my whole career and know rhe game. Back in the day I used straight vanilla and also commercial vanilla-based cover scents. They had no effect on animals as far as I can tell.
I am sitting on the couch right now (all tags are filled this year..) with Nose Jammer on one wrist and pure vanilla on the other. While there is a faint essence of vanilla in NJ, it totally overpowers the pure vanilla.
As Candor posted above, if you haven't tried it you can speculate all you want. But again, if you've seen all the ground level mature buck photos in my live hunts posted here, from bucks and bulls I've rattled, called and decoyed in from downwind, after hunting for a week with no shower and only changing base layers every couple days, well, I have no other explanation since that stuff never happened before I started using NJ. They would ALWAYS hit my scent cone and run. I have no relationship to the company, don't get it free, don't even have a hat. Only a trophy room full of big animals killed at close range on the ground, many of which either crossed my scent cone or came in downwind.
I have two cans of it at the farm and can honestly say I have not observed your results. Maybe I am just stinkier than most? Do you spray it in the air, or on your clothing, stand tree etc? Thanks.
Frank, I only hunt on the ground, so I spray it on logs on either side of my hide, if calling and decoying in a natural blind. In a Double Bull I spray all around the open shooting window. When spot-stalk, I use Dwight Schuh's method and spray down my pack and hat. I have treestand friends like Curt Wells who spray some at the base and again on the tree at the level where he's standing.
On this year's elk, the wind was real shifty but it was at the end of the season and I had to push it. I sprayed my jacket, pants, and hat before making my move. Stalked him in the swirling wind and shot him at 7 yards (no calling, no elk hat decoy). Did NJ help on that one? I don't honestly know. But it sure didn't hurt and the elk backstrap we ate last night was pretty dang sweet...
Has anyone used Nose Jammer, and Evercalm. (not at the same time) Which works better, based on your experiences.
I have. No comparison from my experience, but again, I'm hunting on the ground at close range. I used to use Evercalm on my decoys but didn't really see much effect, positive or negative. Now I spray a very light spritz of Nose Jammer on the decoys and the deer come up to them to sniff.
Lou have you tried it is other parts of our great states, besides the west and Midwest? I have used it here in NY, Ohio and Pa, results were very mixed but there were more negative reactions than positive. I just think in areas with high hunting pressure and crazy long seasons deer are much more conditioned to any human intrusion. Shawn
Nose Jammer sounds a lot like a cover scent I used to use called Essence of Fall. It had a very sweet smell, somewhere between apple cider and whiskey. That's what I had sprayed all over myself when a spike bull stuck his nose in my ear and drooled on my shoulder. I kinda forgot about that stuff when it became hard to find. I may give nose jammer a try.
Shawn, you may very well be right. I have only used it in western states. But I do know serious midwestern bowhunters who have had good success with it
Thanks Lou for turning me on to it. 2 year user. 100 percent effective on downwind deer in my part of Wisconsin no.... but I'll take My observed 80 to 90 percent effective over the last 100 set ups. My old clean clothes routine got me by a few noses nothing like I've experienced with jammer. Thanks Lou
Anybody try the new Ion stuff? They've been used for years in commercial applications.
Candor, very good review of the nosejammer. I can tell from your review you have actually used the product. I've used it for a number of years now and my experience could be a carbon copy of yours. I have seen my dog confused enough times about a scent or situation to understand what a "confused" look is on an animal. I would say you hit the nail on the head when you described some deer's reaction to NJ as confused. Does NJ work 100% of the time? Of course not. Does it help from time to time? 100% it does and this makes it worth the small expense.
Lou- I would bet you would have a room full of trophies if you didn’t use anything.
I'll try some jammer. Let's see if it works on public land deer.
I think I'll try some Nose Jammer with my Ozone to see which one wins! If the ozone doesn't takes the smell out I'll try it hunting, probably next year though.
I have used it to good success. Have video proof that it certainly overwhelms the deers nose. The flip side is that it needs to be always pointed upwind and away from your ability to inhale the ozone of you will start to have a scratchy throat and begin to cough.
I use Nose Jammer often and have seen obvious positive results as many above have mentioned. And I hunt a lot. To me the smell seems more cinnamon than vanilla, or something in between. May try a little when I go in to the Eagles Club tonight for Thirsty Thursday. But I learned the last couple days to not let you guys in on the results!
You will have does sniffing their way to you.
I love the NJ, use a bunch of it down here. My daughter has her own can and she sprays everything when we’re sitting together. Lmao.
Great, now everyone will fill the public lands with the aroma of nose jammer. The deer will become very sketchy of it.
So, on the elk trip when I retire, a Hootchie Mamma and NJ and I will be good to go. Thanks!
Tried Nose Jammer today for the First time, and had 11 Does of different ages morning and evening down wind of me and not 1 of them spooked or even acted like they would. None of them put there head up and smelled like they were looking to find something wrong, Don't know if it work's like that all the time but I had good success with it today. Every time they left without spooking I was thinking of how some of you guy's were putting Lou down about using it.LOL.
Lol, BigStriper! When I first rolled out the doe hat for plains deer hunting over 25 years ago people laughed, said it was the stupidest thing they'd ever seen, will only scare deer, etc.. Today, virtually every successful plains ground deer hunter, including outfitters, uses a commercial or homemade deer hat, Heads Up, or Stalker. I'm used to being ridiculed for trying new things that others insist won't work (rattling and decoying mule deer, the elk hat, etc..) Glad to hear you had a good experience with the NJ!
Hhm when Lou say something works I buy it ...going to get some nj I’ve been using the deodorant this year just grabbed it bc it was cheapest lol I have been smelled with it on though so who knows
I used the Nose Jammer again today and didn't have any bad results, can't say how good it really is,but haven't had any Bad luck with it yet.
There used to be a cover scent called Cover Up and it was a vanilla based product. I used it a few times and the deer blew, it was in a white plastic squirt bottle.
Jaquomo, are you saying that I could spray myself and my hunter with nose jammer, take no other scent precautions and have a mature Muley buck bedded in a crop field and have the wind blowing directly from us to the deer and he won’t smell us? As long as he doesn’t hear or see us we could just walk up within bow range, completely ignore the wind? Seriously?
Drink a case of Bush, do not shower in the morning, put on your hunting clothes, pet the dogs, cook bacon and eggs, spill gas on yourself while filling truck up on way to hunt, smoke a few cigars, then just spray yourself and go kill big mature deer and elk downwind. I don't think anyone is saying that, or is that gullible.
Mike, when I get to a laptop I will post up as many photos as you like of muley bucks at point blank range I've rattled, called, and/or decoyed in from downwind while on the ground. If you've ever followed my live muley hunts you've seen dozens of those photos, along with hero shots of ones I've chosen to kill. The buck I posted above from a couple weeks ago was 15 yards downwind when I shot him.
I use no other scent control and only change base layers every couple days, maybe showering once a week on remote hunts. So try it and draw your own conclusions. I only know what works for me and for most other hunters who use it. There may be some hunters who inherently smell "bad", and for them it probably won't work. I know some smelly guys.
PECO, That’s exactly what is being said from Jaquomo where his dead deer is posted on Dec 8: “Another "Nose Jammer" buck shot from on the ground a little over a week ago at 15 yards when he and his does were straight downwind.” “ Is it not?
Not exactly. But I've killed enough big muley bucks and passed on (and photographed) many more called in from downwind that I'm convinced there is something to it. You are guiding when I've done my live hunts on Bowsite so you haven't seen the near-daily photos of bucks I've called in.
But I hunt solo. There may be an exponential force of diminishing returns when trying to fool a buck with a hunter, guide, and cameraman, since all will be covered with billions of gas producing bacteria. I doubt you could spray a dozen people, ot a stadium-full, and walk in on a bedded buck downwind. But for one hunter alone, yes, it does work. There will always be skeptics. I learned that when I introduced using a deer hat on the plains 25 years ago.
I'm going to try it. If it works as claimed, are we crossing the line of fair chase?
PECO, I've thought about that. It doesn't always work. And there are some people it will never help because they smell worse than others, bad breath, unusual body odor, whatever. You know some of them, I'm sure. And even when it does seem to confuse the animals, we still have to draw the bow and execute an accurate shot. That movement is what screws me more often than not, no matter what direction the wind is blowing.
But in the grand scheme, considering we now have many accurate 100 yard archers and bows pushing over 350 fps (60 yards is considered a "chip shot" by most, it seems..), laser rangefinders, laser rangefinder sights, rangefinding binoculars, Ozonics, HECS, Scent Lok suits, photorealistic decoys we can walk behind, motorized decoys for stand hunting, scientifically engineered food plots, legal baiting in many places, pure estrus doe scent with automated scrape drippers, remote cellular trail cams that instantly send photos to our phones, heated body suits, portable popup blinds, etc, etc, etc, seems like a cover scent is just a small drop in the bucket.
I'd say this thread has been hijacked...
Lou, yep same happened with me re: sketics/critics esp with longbow/recurve for desert mulies..."you'll NEVER kill one of these bucks using that" ... yet I average nearly 100% on public land...