Sitka Mountain Gear
Private property ethics
Whitetail Deer
Contributors to this thread:
JSW 02-Dec-19
Pat Lefemine 02-Dec-19
Bou'bound 02-Dec-19
Brotsky 02-Dec-19
Ambush 02-Dec-19
wildwilderness 02-Dec-19
ryanrc 02-Dec-19
JohnMC 02-Dec-19
JTV 02-Dec-19
t-roy 02-Dec-19
Bearshaft 02-Dec-19
eddie c 02-Dec-19
Swampbuck 02-Dec-19
JL 02-Dec-19
GF 02-Dec-19
Marty 02-Dec-19
RickyTheCabelGuy 02-Dec-19
Old School 02-Dec-19
EmbryOklahoma 02-Dec-19
Ambush 02-Dec-19
JSW 02-Dec-19
JTV 02-Dec-19
redquebec 02-Dec-19
JSW 02-Dec-19
Jaquomo 02-Dec-19
JSW 02-Dec-19
JSW 02-Dec-19
RK 02-Dec-19
redquebec 02-Dec-19
t-roy 02-Dec-19
IdyllwildArcher 02-Dec-19
drycreek 02-Dec-19
Grunter 02-Dec-19
Rgiesey 02-Dec-19
redquebec 02-Dec-19
Charlie Rehor 02-Dec-19
WV Mountaineer 02-Dec-19
Duke 02-Dec-19
Genesis 02-Dec-19
JSW 02-Dec-19
Native Okie 02-Dec-19
sitO 02-Dec-19
t-roy 02-Dec-19
redquebec 02-Dec-19
APauls 03-Dec-19
Bou'bound 03-Dec-19
Kevin Dill 03-Dec-19
midwest 03-Dec-19
Dave 03-Dec-19
Catscratch 03-Dec-19
dmann 03-Dec-19
MT in MO 03-Dec-19
Catscratch 03-Dec-19
BIG BEAR 03-Dec-19
EmbryOklahoma 03-Dec-19
RIT 03-Dec-19
Timbrhuntr 03-Dec-19
Shiras42 03-Dec-19
Surfbow 03-Dec-19
TrapperKayak 03-Dec-19
TrapperKayak 03-Dec-19
Copperhead 03-Dec-19
Ironbow-cell 03-Dec-19
JSW 03-Dec-19
JM 03-Dec-19
JSW 03-Dec-19
Hh76 03-Dec-19
JM 03-Dec-19
Grey Ghost 03-Dec-19
JM 03-Dec-19
Habitat 03-Dec-19
FORESTBOWS 03-Dec-19
sitO 03-Dec-19
GF 03-Dec-19
JSW 03-Dec-19
Grey Ghost 04-Dec-19
Charlie Rehor 04-Dec-19
BIG BEAR 04-Dec-19
Catscratch 04-Dec-19
kscowboy 04-Dec-19
12yards 04-Dec-19
Ambush 04-Dec-19
JSW 04-Dec-19
K Cummings 04-Dec-19
Native Okie 04-Dec-19
BIG BEAR 04-Dec-19
JSW 04-Dec-19
Ambush 04-Dec-19
BIG BEAR 04-Dec-19
leo17 04-Dec-19
JSW 04-Dec-19
bighorn 04-Dec-19
BIG BEAR 04-Dec-19
JSW 04-Dec-19
Ambush 04-Dec-19
JM 04-Dec-19
Shawn 04-Dec-19
SixLomaz 04-Dec-19
BIG BEAR 04-Dec-19
Ambush 04-Dec-19
lawdy 04-Dec-19
Ambush 04-Dec-19
Bloodtrail 04-Dec-19
Ambush 04-Dec-19
WI Shedhead 04-Dec-19
BIG BEAR 04-Dec-19
butcherboy 04-Dec-19
lawdy 04-Dec-19
mn_archer 04-Dec-19
IdyllwildArcher 04-Dec-19
sitO 04-Dec-19
BIG BEAR 05-Dec-19
Boreal 05-Dec-19
Catscratch 05-Dec-19
Shawn 05-Dec-19
Ambush 05-Dec-19
Ambush 05-Dec-19
Ambush 05-Dec-19
SixLomaz 05-Dec-19
BIG BEAR 05-Dec-19
Catscratch 05-Dec-19
Ambush 05-Dec-19
Catscratch 05-Dec-19
BIG BEAR 05-Dec-19
JM 05-Dec-19
mn_archer 05-Dec-19
JusPassin 05-Dec-19
XbowfromNY 05-Dec-19
From: JSW
02-Dec-19
I would like to throw out a hypothetical situation and get some opinions on whether it’s an ethical issue, completely acceptable or somewhere in between. How would the majority of you handle this?

I have a guy who has let me do some hunting on his property for a number of years. He is a hard core deer hunter so he doesn’t let me hunt deer. Just things that don’t conflict with the deer season. I was able to get permission to hunt the property right next to his but this property holds no deer and only has a few trees. It’s legal to bait so I could throw out a pile of corn and lure the deer off of his property and probably have a chance at a good buck. The bait pile and stand will only be a few yards off of his fence line since that’s the only place that has any trees. Even then, there are only a few trees. If it weren’t for the bait pile, deer would rarely be on the property that I can legally hunt.

If I shoot a deer it will likely go back onto his property before it dies.

How many of you would be okay hunting like this?

From: Pat Lefemine
02-Dec-19
From the sounds of it, you are answering your own question. Find another spot.

From: Bou'bound
02-Dec-19
You know what’s right. Come on man.

From: Brotsky
02-Dec-19
Not in any way would I find that to be an acceptable situation.

From: Ambush
02-Dec-19
JSW, you only have to ask yourself, "WWSD". (what would sitO do)

02-Dec-19
Sounds like a good way to piss him off, and never recover your deer unless you can guarantee a spine shot.....

Now why can't you set up a ground blind further away( a few hundred yards) and do a bait line from the property boundary to your set up?

From: ryanrc
02-Dec-19
You know the answer to this question, but for anybody who doesn't....they would be a giant dbag if they did that.

From: JohnMC
02-Dec-19
Why don't you ask him his opinion on it. If he is cool with it then consider it. If you get anything less 100% body language and all don't do it.

From: JTV
02-Dec-19
No, No and No ...... dont do it

From: t-roy
02-Dec-19
Put me down for 1 “never”.

From: Bearshaft
02-Dec-19
Only if I wanted to loose a place to hunt and not sleep well at night. Sad part is, there are many people who would do this and consider it ethical.

From: eddie c
02-Dec-19
He must not be a good friend for you to even consider it.

From: Swampbuck
02-Dec-19
Setting up on property lines is lame.. period!

From: JL
02-Dec-19
Hypothetically speaking of course.....why can't you put up an elevated blind or tripod stand somewhere other than the property line? I would not knowingly set up on someone else's property line unless they gave their blessing. Also...I suppose everyone has their own definition of "setting up on a property line". That is within 50 yards of the line, within 100 yards, 150 yards, etc.

From: GF
02-Dec-19
“Sad part is, there are many people who would do this and consider it ethical.”

If that’s the case, maybe they need a vocabulary lesson?

Simplest definition, “Ethical” means you’d be just as happy if the shoe were on the other foot.

So if you were allowing someone to hunt your property except for deer, how would you like to find out he was baiting the place next door?

Of course, the deer do not belong to him, so he should maybe wonder how his neighbors feel about him harboring an unusual number of deer on HIS place if those deer are feeding on THEIRS.... but that’s not necessarily the case here..

From: Marty
02-Dec-19
No way ever..

02-Dec-19
Let's take it one step further. How about if the owner of the new property gave the OP the permission to work up a couple acres of land in vicinity of the same trees and fence line and plant a food plot? Ethical now?

02-Dec-19
This is a situation that is legal, but IMO is not ethical.

From: Old School
02-Dec-19
Only if I cared nothing about relationships, and killing a big buck trumped everything else including my reputation and character.

Doing what you’re asking about would put you in company you probably wouldn’t want to associate with.

-Mitch

02-Dec-19
Sounds like you spun the question and he (someone) is doing that to you and the land you hunt.

From: Ambush
02-Dec-19
^^^ Ahhh, the man from Oklahomo might be onto something.

From: JSW
02-Dec-19
But what if I think this is my best chance, by far, to get a big buck?

From: JTV
02-Dec-19
just because something is legal, dosnt mean you should ........

From: redquebec
02-Dec-19
The amazing part of this hypothetical is that the hard core deer hunting land owner would let someone rove through the deer woods, altering animal patterns and spreading human presence, but would forbid his friend from hunting deer on that very property. If I had a friend like that he wouldn't be my friend anymore.

The answer is yes I can hunt his property or no I can't, not "you can come to out house for thanksgiving but you can't eat anything."

Let me just say that I have never seen more poor sportsmanship in anything outdoors than when guys get caught up in trophy deer hunting. Don't let yourself get caught up in that racket.

Weird scenarios like this between hard core landowner/hunters start feuds that last for years.

From: JSW
02-Dec-19
It's not BS. I really want to know how the majority of bowhunters would deal with this. Remember, I started by stating that this is hypothetical. After I hear from a significant number of bowsiters I will expand on this.

From: Jaquomo
02-Dec-19
Nope

From: JSW
02-Dec-19
Elite, that is a good point. If the person was totally opposed to hunting and didn't want "his" deer to be harmed, would it make a difference? I think it would in my mind. That requires some pondering.

From: JSW
02-Dec-19
Redquebec, let me clarify. The guy lets a few people hunt turkeys in the spring and coyotes after the deer hunt is over.

From: RK
02-Dec-19
I'm sure you will do the right thing

From: redquebec
02-Dec-19
Oh, I missed that it's hypothetical, sorry.

I wouldn't do it here in kentucky because that would start a feud. You want your truck tires slashed and a 2 liter of coke poured into the gas tank...go for it.

I know many places like West Virginia, Upstate New York, Appalachian mountain KY and Virginia where an act like that would definitely start a battle.

NOOOO WAAAY! I'm out there to recreate, see nature and disconnect, not start a war.

From: t-roy
02-Dec-19
“But what if I think this is my best chance, by far, to get a big buck?”

I’ve seen some pics of your trophy room, JSW! This is purely hypothetical;-)

02-Dec-19
First off, all you guys assuming Jim is doing this and chastising him for it - come on now. Read the OP: "hypothetical"

So that tells me this is either being done to him or someone he knows, not him doing it to someone else. Or he has a similar situation that he sees and is polling people to see if he's crazy in thinking that it's not ok...

Seriously... Some folks are so quick to judge...

As far as the OP question: No, I think it's not ok because the LO has paid it forward to the person by letting them hunt the land (turkeys), has no obligation to allow anyone to hunt deer on his land, and the guy setting up on the edge of his land is sticking it to someone who did him a favor, which is not how I was raised...

And redquebec, I couldn't disagree with you more. And who says they're friends? He called him "a guy," not a friend.

From: drycreek
02-Dec-19
Hell, even I wouldn’t do that....

From: Grunter
02-Dec-19
Heck no, that's no way to hunt. Good way to piss people off though and not recover your deer that ran onto neighbors property.

From: Rgiesey
02-Dec-19
Owning land doesn’t entitle you to the deer on that land. Just to hunt on that land. You can’t control where a deer that you shoot dies. Ethical shots help but things happen. If you like to use bait to hunt then that’s a viable method on land that you have permission on. If you want to defer to to a neighbors claim on deer because of friendship or return of favors then that’s something to consider. Personally enjoyment of the hunt is a major factor for me and a couple parts of this don’t sound enjoyable. The ethics are each individuals own and I have no problem not being judgmental of whatever legal choice someone would make.

From: redquebec
02-Dec-19
Your right IW archer he didn't specify they were friends. The whole hypothetical thing threw me a bit.

But if you're disagreeing with me on an act like that creating bad blood, that's been my family's experience. Luckily for me personally, I've never been on either side of such a scenario.

Sounds like bad ethics to me. However, if hypothetically, the two guys have a man to man conversation about it an agreement could be reached either way.

02-Dec-19
Why not use a hypothetical food plot or water hole instead of a corn pile? Both can be more effective than a corn pile.

P&Y Club fair chase rules state if its legal in the state its ok for entry. What an individual does after that is on them.

Much of whitetail hunting is people management in addition to deer mgt.

02-Dec-19
I wouldn’t do it. No way does a dang deer or any animal mean that much to me. But, I’m also a little concerned over some of the responses.

In this situation it is cut and dry why I feel it shouldn’t be done. Only place to setup, he doesn’t want you deer hunting his land so he will likely see it for what it is, etc... However, if the line is the boundary, what is considered the boundary? His side, the side you’d be hunting, or a given distance from the line.

Seems most here have a problem with line setting. I would too in this instance. But, why does anyone else control where you set if you aren’t on their property? See my point? If it’s the only place to hunt the adjoining property, why does the other guy get so much preference over where it’s ethical to set? What’s the magical distance where it becomes acceptable. ?

I guess the best way to say it is does it matter the distance one sets from the line if their intent is to kill deer that the other person has feed, built habitat for, and planned on killing them selves?

From: Duke
02-Dec-19
Unethical to even pose the question.

From: Genesis
02-Dec-19
Since this is a hypothetical,I would not bait whitetails,and TRY NOT to hunt close to property lines but do as long as the line is free of others stands

From: JSW
02-Dec-19
So here's the rest of the story. As a few figured out, this happened to me. I heard that the guy was going to be deer hunting this year on he property next to mine. I walked in and saw a huge pile of corn 13 yards from my fence and a tree stand just a little farther. Like I stated above, deer do not live on that property and there are only a few trees on it. When I saw it I thought to myself, "well that's a chicken shit thing to do". Later I found out that the guy had killed a deer there and when I went and looked, I found that the deer had died about 40 yards into my property and he drug it out without asking if he could. When I called him on it, he said he assumed since he had permission to hunt spring turkey that he had permission to retrieve his deer. The whole thing really pissed me off. The vast majority of bowsiters thought the whole scenario was wrong. A few talked like if it's legal, it's just part of the deal. I brought this up because the guy couldn't understand why I was bothered by it. I just wanted to know what most people would do in this situation. There is really nothing I can do about it but I don't think I would have done the same thing. I'm going to post another scenario similar but different that happened this year as well. I'm interested to see what you think of that one. Thanks for the responses. Feel free to continue the discussion now that your know how it ended.

From: Native Okie
02-Dec-19
Hard “No” for me. You gotta have some common sense and courtesy in the situation. Thanks for sharing, Jim. Well done.

From: sitO
02-Dec-19
That guy's no hunter, and he just lost a good Turkey spot

From: t-roy
02-Dec-19
In Iowa, it’s legal to cross onto another’s private property to track and/or retrieve a wounded animal without having to get permission from the property owner. It’s common courtesy to do so, but not mandatory. They cannot possess a weapon when doing so. I have no problem with them being able to do so, however, I think it’s a total crock that they don’t even have to attempt to get in contact with the landowner first, and I think the landowner should be able to dictate when they should be able to try to retrieve the animal (Within reason).

Don’t blame you at all for being pissed, JSW. Pretty dick move on the guy’s part, IMO.

From: redquebec
02-Dec-19
The most revealing part of the story is that the corn pile guy didn't understand why the land owner was bothered by it. I think it's good that you both had a conversation about it, regardless.

From: APauls
03-Dec-19
Wow. Just wow.

From: Bou'bound
03-Dec-19
All I know is that JSW's recent article in Bowhunter Magazine on the monster buck he got last year was as good a story on a deer pursuit as one will ever read Excellent job on putting that down in words and getting it done in the field. brute persistence got a brute buck. well done and deserved

From: Kevin Dill
03-Dec-19
I've said it a thousand times. Legality is the first rung on the ethical ladder. A large number of hunters never get beyond the first step, and some don't even try.

As hunters, we're often more about 'whatever it takes to succeed at our goals' and many times that involves pushing the limits of ethical behaviors toward neighbors, other hunters, and even our quarry.

As for the scenario described above, my personal ethics would prevent me from baiting (or plotting for that matter) to deliberately pull deer off the neighbor. There are some NJ guys leasing land next to my farm currently and their entire hunting strategy is based around spin-feeders and corn piles near neighboring land. 4-wheelers with sacks of corn on back and they look like they're running a feedlot for deer somewhere. But hey...it's the rut or gun season. They drove hours to get here. They just HAVE to get that big Ohio buck if at all possible. And I'm pretty sure they won't be hesitating to cross a boundary (quietly but still illegal) if a shot deer heads to the next farm.

From: midwest
03-Dec-19
I wouldn't do it but I wouldn't get upset if it was my land and someone set up next to me....bait or no bait. Being a landowner, I would expect things like that. Just like when I hunt public land, I expect to have hunts spoiled by others. Everyone wants to hunt and access is tough these days.

Since he knew you and you were gracious enough to let him turkey and coyote hunt there, he should have, at the very least, spoken to you about his plans. Illegal trespassing to retrieve the deer was totally unacceptable.

Jim, if he had told you his plans first, what would you have said to him?

From: Dave
03-Dec-19
Do it! Better hope it's a great deer though cuz it'll be the last one you ever take off his property.

From: Catscratch
03-Dec-19
Personally, I would feel a little icky hunting right on a property line. I guess there is always different circumstances though. I think I would feel fine about shoot a deer right before it leaves my place, but would feel like a cheat if I shot one as soon as it came onto my place. I don't know why that makes a difference to me but I think it does.

It would also make a difference knowing if the neighbor liked to hunt or not. If I knew for a fact that the neighbor had zero interest in the deer or hunting I would probably be ok with sitting near the line. If I knew he was a die hard habitat guy, hunter, and enthusiast I would feel guilty as hell sitting on his fence.

From: dmann
03-Dec-19
Of course trespassing is wrong, and I don’t agree with it, but sounds like you’re mad at the guy for hunting legally on property he has permission to hunt. Might be annoying but not wrong. Definitely should have asked permission to retrieve though. (Personally i probably wouldn’t have done that btw)

From: MT in MO
03-Dec-19
That would be like seeing someone fishing a small cove and then driving your boat right in front of him and in the same direction he was fishing so you cover the area before he does...Really ticks me off when people do that...

From: Catscratch
03-Dec-19
Personally, I would feel a little icky hunting right on a property line. I guess there is always different circumstances though. I think I would feel fine about shoot a deer right before it leaves my place, but would feel like a cheat if I shot one as soon as it came onto my place. I don't know why that makes a difference to me but I think it does.

It would also make a difference knowing if the neighbor liked to hunt or not. If I knew for a fact that the neighbor had zero interest in the deer or hunting I would probably be ok with sitting near the line. If I knew he was a die hard habitat guy, hunter, and enthusiast I would feel guilty as hell sitting on his fence.

From: BIG BEAR
03-Dec-19
Setting up right on a border when you know that there’s a good chance that a deer will end up across that border after its shot is wrong.......

Unless the landowner on the other side of the fence was O.K. with retrieving a deer in his property...

03-Dec-19
When the neighbors to our East started leasing their 110 acres, the hunters knew exactly where the deer came and went from and that was the property I lease and hunt. They put feeders/stands/box blinds right along our borders (on right of ways). One stand looked down one of our right of ways for at least 400 yards. The stand was in a tree no more than 5 yards form the bordering fence, facing back towards the other land, and a feeder was placed 15 yards from the stand. They went down to both fences and placed NO TRESPASSING signs facing towards us. Since they went to this trouble of placing stands/feeders and no trespass signs, I made it clear that I knew of this and placed my own NT signs pointing towards their direction. Since we had more property to hunt, I made sure I didn't entertain hunting close to them and pushing deer towards them. But, I wonder what might have been my course if I didn't have better spots and more land to hunt? Either way, I think it's tacky to post up on the borders like that, even if legal. Especially when it's clear they can (and probably have) shoot over on our side and easily retrieve a deer without us knowing it.

From: RIT
03-Dec-19
This very thing is happening to me now. This kid (I say kid but he is in his 30s). His family owns about 100 acres to the South of me but only about 10 acres of woods. I have all the cover hence all of the deer. There is about 500 yards of shared border. They have half a dozen stands facing into my thickets 10 yards from the property line. They only hunt over corn and apple piles that are 3’ from the line. They hunt all winds regardless of where it blows. I feel like it has really affected my hunting (mainly the mature buck movement). There is no doubt in my mind they recover deer in my woods without letting me know.

Technically they aren’t breaking any laws (minus shooting multiple bucks in a one buck state) but I don’t like it any. I am completely at a loss here. Every year I remove snares on my side of the fence. Three years ago I hinge cut a 10’ wide swath of trees about 90% of the border. It created a pinch point at one end and they just relocated their stands. I didn’t want to cut off the entire travel between the two properties but may need to. This isn’t about them shooting deer because that doesn’t bother me it’s about them sitting where they do and the methods in which they hunt. I’m quite sure the same guy shoots multiple bucks (small ones to boot) and uses family members to tag them. It has caused me some anxiety for sure. I have considered an actual fence. I don’t hunt anywhere near the line and it’s some of my best cover. I don’t want to risk loosing a deer over the line. I don’t want to do anything malicious but any thoughts on a solution? I am leaning towards completing sealing off the travel between the two parcels and making prime bedding along the border so they bump deer into my property every time they get into stand. At the end of the day I don’t even care about the bait I just wish they would move off the line.

From: Timbrhuntr
03-Dec-19
I have a buddy in Michigan and his grand son went one step further he set up 16 foot 4 by 4s on the property line behind his neighbours stands that surround his property and hung orange snow fence on them lol Where I have been hunting at home I have the best bedding area and an old fruit tree orchard. Alot of deer spend time on the property. I am surrounded by stands. In fact one guy has access to a field behind me. There are 2 trees on the fence row that grew up just on the field side and he has stands in both of them. i walked the property one day and there are 9 stands all within 5 yards of my property following the property line. Funny part is I know the owners and have permission to retrieve a deer on their side I wonder if the guys hunting the other side assume it is the same for my side lol (by the way the land owners don't hunt but allow others to) Interesting thin is I have 60 acres surounded on 3 sides 4th is road. The 3 surrounding sides have 200, 250 and 100 acres and they all have to put their stands on the trails leading from my spot with pile of corn pretty sad !

From: Shiras42
03-Dec-19
I think that JohnMC has the correct answer. Talk with the neighbor first and get a read on the situation. If they are COMPLETELY cool with it and you work out all of the details prior then I would say that would be ethical. To just do it without any communication, agreement or understanding in place first would be at a minimum a dick move.

From: Surfbow
03-Dec-19
So Jim, what was the final outcome? If it were me the guy would probably lose his access to my property, reason being that while he ha permission to hunt turkeys and coyotes he didn't have permission to come on the property at other times and was therefore trespassing...adios muchacho!

From: TrapperKayak
03-Dec-19
Not a chance in Hell. Its just asking for trouble. Its an obvious ploy to trick 'his' deer off his land, he'd see it that way, and cause you endless hell.

From: TrapperKayak
03-Dec-19
RIT said "There is no doubt in my mind they recover deer in my woods without letting me know. " My solution would be to ELECTRIFY the fence - put a couple cows in there along the 500' border with his separated from the rest and turn the power on high. If he touches your cows in retaliation, then you got him by the groin, press charges. Ordinarily I wouldn't cave to this type of 'warfare', but he already started the dang war by trespassing and stealing from your land.

From: Copperhead
03-Dec-19
To the OP, JSW; I find that behavior highly unethical and would encourage you to not let him hunt or trespass in any matter until he changes his ways. You can't do anything about him baiting unless there are rules of distance to the nearest property line. I personally do not trespass on anyones land without permission even if they are family and have given me permission to go anytime I want, I still ask every time if it's okay before I go onto their land.

As far as RIT's situation, If you suspect they are illegally taking wild game I would try to come up with proof positive and then turn them in to the game authorities.

03-Dec-19
Give your conservation officer the keys to your property with permission to enter at any time. They will respect when you are hunting. Help them do their job, it will be appreciated.

From: Ironbow-cell
03-Dec-19
No way would I do that. If he set up 200 yds from your fence that might be different.

I have dealt with the same issues. I have a guy right over the fence with a feeder set up. I have the timber he has thick pasture.

I once found a stand in a tree on the fence line that was literally hanging over my property, and facing my property. No way could he shoot toward his side. I took it down and left it at the base of the tree. He took it out.

From: JSW
03-Dec-19
This situation was worse because I had a good relationship with the guy and I expected better. It seemed like he was sneaking around and hoping i wouldn't find out. If it had been a total stranger my reaction would have been different. The land was leased to another person previously and that guy hunted the same tree. He didn't throw out a massive corn pile in front of the stand so my reaction was also different. To be honest, I'm completely disgusted with corn pile hunting and have pushed to get it banned in Kansas. Even the local farmers are disgusted with it. That's a topic for another discussion. I have informed the guy that he is not to set foot on my property for any reason, even to retrieve a wounded animal. We'll have to see how that works out.

From: JM
03-Dec-19
I think I will play devils advocate.

It is nice to have this perspective when you have a great piece of ground that has bottle necks, food sources, and plenty of deer.

How do you look at it when your only opportunity to hunt is on a marginal ground that is short of food and cover? how do you hunt?

John

From: JSW
03-Dec-19
John, You probably hunt the property in a way that gives you the best chance at being successful. That's what this guy did. I'm more upset with the way he went about it.

From: Hh76
03-Dec-19
JM, good idea looking at it from another angle. I don't agree with this exact situation, and certainly not the "trespassing", but it can be a fine line.

I don't own hunting land, but I've been thinking about buying, so I pay attention. I hear a lot about how people sculpt their property into "whitetail heaven", by planting, cutting, etc. You could say that this is what that hunter was doing? He set up a stand in the best location available, and he provided a food source to attract deer. Isn't that the private land formula? Sure, it sounds like this hunter may have chosen the wrong property to start with, and his food source was questionable, but maybe he doesn't know any better, or has no other options?

From: JM
03-Dec-19
I understand the friend aspect, I would expect a friend to say hey John I am going to lease the ground next to you and and discuss how to handle the property boundary issue.

John

From: Grey Ghost
03-Dec-19
JSW,

I've ended relationships for far less than what that jackass did. Totally unacceptable in my book.

Matt

From: JM
03-Dec-19
We should also think very carefully before we advocate banning someone else's legal hunting hunting method, its a very slippery slope.

John

From: Habitat
03-Dec-19
Alot of states he doesn't have to let you get the deer if it goes on his property and that instance would probably be when I wouldn't let someone do it either

03-Dec-19
Amen John!!!

From: sitO
03-Dec-19
I'm with you Jim, sitting over a pile of sustenance has zero to do with hunting... ZERO! There's good reason it's not allowed on any KS state owned land or WIHA...needs to go away.

From: GF
03-Dec-19
“We should also think very carefully before we advocate banning someone else's legal hunting hunting method, its a very slippery slope.”

Not so much when there is good science behind it.

Fence-sitting..... Hooo-boy! How much uglier does it get?

Per my last post....

If you’re raising crops to make a living and the guy next door creates a whole bunch of bedding/cover area to hold deer that feed on your paycheck... that’s a pretty crappy neighbor.

But that shouldn’t be an insurmountable issue...

From: JSW
03-Dec-19
John, Banning someone's legal hunting method is a slippery slope? I don't see it that way. In most states if you get caught baiting deer you lose your hunting privileges for a number of years. Why is it criminal behavior in one area and my legal right in another?

As hunters we only exist as long as public perception is neutral to positive about how we do things. When you walk onto a property and see a pile of corn the size of he average bedroom do you have a positive or negative reaction to that. How do you think the average farmer sees it? How do you think the average non hunter sees it? I've heard from farmers who are disgusted with it. The only way we survive is if we maintain a positive image among the non hunting public. Some things are socially acceptable and some things are not. 100 years ago you could buy opium and cocaine over the counter. Society decided that was not a good thing and took away the rights of the pharmacist to sell those things and the public to purchase them.

I think it's way more important to police ourselves and stand up when we see something that is bad for our image. Many things that were legal have been stopped because it was the ethical thing to do. Think about how the average Joe sees things, not what makes it easier to kill a deer.

Banning an ugly and questionable practice is not a slippery slope. It is a matter of survival. There are many things that are legal in some areas that will hurt us if we don't pay attention.

From: Grey Ghost
04-Dec-19
Now come on, JSW, if KS banned baiting, where would Pat and his army of quiver-lickers go to kill big bucks? ;-)

Well stated, my friend.

Matt

04-Dec-19
You are entitled to your personal ethics on Kansas baiting. Is this P&Y Clubs position?

What about Texas, Oklahoma and the other states that allow baiting? Are they next on the list or will banning baiting in Kansas be enough?

This is a slippery slope as John points out. Trojan horse. Divide and conquer from within. The antis need only sit back and relax.

From: BIG BEAR
04-Dec-19
JSW..... I think a fair compromise is to limit the amount of bait that is used in states where it is legal..... Here in Michigan’s U.P.,, The limit is 2 gallons. That in my opinion... is not offensive like the truckloads of bait that used to be legal in the 70s and 80’s.....

And if you’re going to argue about public perception.... Then you absolutely must include the image of bear baiting. You can’t tell me that the general public knows the difference between baiting for deer or bear. If someone in the general public hates one,, They hate both.......

Are you prepared to throw baiting for bears under the bus too ??

I see that you regularly hunt water for western game. Can you explain the ethical difference of hunting a water hole in a hot and arid climate where animals must come to the water.... and placing some corn on the ground and hunting over that ??

From: Catscratch
04-Dec-19
Scary to think we should conform to look better to the public. In all honesty, I've known and met way more people who think bowhunters wound, cripple, and loose deer at a much higher rate than rifle hunters, than people who think bowhunting inflects a quick and humane death. The whole pic of a deer with an arrow sticking out of it's back standing in someone's backyard bird feeder has a pretty negative affect. If we cater to the average Joe it won't be long before bowhunting is the thing getting banned. Just my opinion, but I think we should be fighting for each other and not against each other (even when we don't exactly agree on a personal level). Certainly shouldn't be catering to what someone who's never been hunting finds unappealing.

From: kscowboy
04-Dec-19
JSW, these are the unintended consequences of going public with a big buck. I’ve seen a number of good people lose leases and handshake permission deals when a big buck was taken and money got dangled in front of the landowners. Big deer bring out the worst in people. I’m sorry this happened to you but sadly, I’m not surprised.

From: 12yards
04-Dec-19
I have permission to hunt a 40 that is a 20 wide by an 80 deep and runs east and west. Depending where I hunt, there is a good chance that the deer I shoot will end up on the neighbors property. And it's hard to not be set up close to the property line. I'd say half the deer I've shot have died on the neighbors. Not sure if this is unethical or not, but I think I'm good.

From: Ambush
04-Dec-19
JSW, are talking about banning baiting or just baiting for deer?

Like say, five yards from your private property that's set up to attract deer?

From: JSW
04-Dec-19
P&Y is not currently addressing this issue. What is stated in this post is my personal feelings as a bowhunter. Just like everyone else on bowsite. I realize that being President of P&Y makes it harder for me to voice unpopular opinions, especially when it's not a P&Y issue.

I'm sick of the "fighting amongst ourselves excuse". We routinely draw lines in the sand on what we will accept as fair chase. Was it divisive to ban spotlighting? High fence hunting? The poison bod? Shooting from a boat or moving vehicle? Things are either acceptable or they are not. When the majority of states say baiting is illegal, maybe we need to take a closer look. I entered this arena 6 years ago and spend the majority of my non hunting time researching and addressing issues that affect our heritage. If you don't think public perception is one of our biggest issues, then you aren't paying attention. As Fred Bear always said, "if you are not working to protect hunting or you are working to destroy it." I think this practice is harmful.

From: K Cummings
04-Dec-19
A person that owns and pays taxes on private property, owns and pay taxes all the way to the property lines. Public land on the other hand, is public...all the way to the property line and anyone that uses that property can use it all the way to the property lines.

In a perfect world, we would all be courteous and polite to those on the other side of the lines, unfortunately it's not a perfect world and that is why laws exist. Heck, we can't even do that on the highway.

I own private land and I use it all the way to its borders. My land borders public land on three sides and while I may not particularly like it, the people that use that land have every right to use it all the way to the borders.

I've never stopped a person from retrieving a wounded deer on my land...as a matter of fact I've helped them drag. No deer, no matter how big or small, is worth the aggravation, at least not to me. If I see a hunter on the public land that borders mine, I will always try to let them know exactly where my stand is and request that they don't shoot directly toward me and I will do the same. I've never had a problem.

KPC

From: Native Okie
04-Dec-19
JSW - SPOT ON! There is some bad stuff out there damaging hunters everywhere. Sadly, most don’t realize it.

From: BIG BEAR
04-Dec-19
That was a political way to avoid my question about hunting over a water hole..... and bear baiting.

Also...... You said that your organization is not currently addressing the issue. Does your organization accept deer into your record books that were killed over bait ???

From: JSW
04-Dec-19
I am not opposed to baiting bears or other large predators. I recognize that our large predator populations are out of control and we need to take drastic measures to decrease those populations. I have been on a baited bear hunt. It is likely that I will do it again some day even though I think hunting them on the ground, face to face is considerably more enjoyable. We need to bait bears to effectively control the population. Banning bear baiting takes away hunting opportunities and makes it harder to manage them. No one can say that banning baiting for deer will significantly reduce the ability to manage the population. Apples and oranges.

From: Ambush
04-Dec-19
Alberta does not allow baiting deer. They also do not allow food plots to bait deer. Is this what you are suggesting?

And, again, are you talking about banning baiting for big game?

From: BIG BEAR
04-Dec-19
Well..... Now you have completely changed your argument from the ethical side of the issue.... to that of a management tool issue.......

Do you think the general non hunting public sees that difference ??? Do you think those non hunters think that bear baiting is acceptable because it’s needed as a management tool ??? I can’t tell you how many non hunters have made negative comments to me on hunting bears over a pile of donuts.

From: leo17
04-Dec-19
How do you feel about bear baiting? I have hunted deer with and without bait. I’m just curious why does it only seem to bother people when it comes to deer? How about chasing cats and bears with dogs? How do you feel about that? I read your story on that guy that baited right next to your fence. I think that was wrong and wouldn’t do it. Then again I, like you have access to quality ground. Maybe if I didn’t have good quality ground to hunt my opinion may be different. I would not have done what he did but in your second story you describe sitting close to a fence line. Within 5 yards. I would not do that either. I just try to give a buffer between neighbors. Now if my neighbors don’t feel the same way then I would adjust my tactics. Everyone has their own opinions on ethical issues. When it comes to baiting, if it’s legal I’d do it and the great thing about the baiting laws in Kansas is that they do not compel anyone to bait. So if you don’t like baiting or rifle hunting or hunting with dogs just don’t do it and don’t lose sleep over the guys who are legally hunting. That’s just my opinion

From: JSW
04-Dec-19
Water holes and food plots are not an issue. The non hunting public has no problem with them and there is no comparison. They are always there and they don't change the travel patterns or day to day movements of the animals. If I'm being honest, the general public doesn't have an issue with feeders or bait sights that you can't see. I question the ethics of all baiting but as stated above, maybe a decent compromise would be to limit the size of the bait pile. Out of sight out of mind, right. I still think baiting deer is wrong but that takes away the guttural distaste that one gets when he sees a huge pile of corn on the ground.

We try to justify what we do by making comparison to similar activities. Well this is okay so this is not really much different. By doing that, eventually you can justify just about anything. If a crossbow is alright in archery season, why not a muzzle loader? If that's alright, why not a rifle? We all draw lines in the sand. We have to or it gets out of control.

From: bighorn
04-Dec-19
Don't hunt fencelines it's always a problem.

From: BIG BEAR
04-Dec-19
Water holes don’t change the travel patterns or movements of animals ?? Seriously ?? Then why do you hunt over a water hole ??? If it rains for 7 days straight..... Are the animals still coming to a water hole ??

Animals in hot arid climates MUST go to the water holes if it doesn’t rain. How about cattle tanks of water..... ??? OK to hunt over them too ??? How do you know the public doesn’t take issue with that ???

Personally.... I think hunters that don’t like baiting for deer push the issue about the public perception of the practice.... Way more than any non hunters that I have ever talked to.

From: JSW
04-Dec-19
Getting back on topic, hunting a fence line isn't always a problem as long as you get along with your neighbor and you have shared values. I have places where it works fine and places where it doesn't. I have plenty of neighbors who practice QDM and we get along just fine.

In contrast, I've put up 12' of chain link to keep guys from shooting across my fence where they had trimmed out the trees to do just that. The same neighbors bragged about shooting over the limit every year. I've put up no hunting signs in front of 2 round bails stacked up with a blind on top which was high enough to allow them to shoot over the trees onto my property. I've even found where they drove into my property to load up a deer that the shot on my property. I've dealt with all of this over the years. You do what you can to build mutual respect but it doesn't always work.

From: Ambush
04-Dec-19
This all boils down to one thing and that is human nature and people's innate sense of self. Everybody wants what's good for them and will find a way to justify it.

It's like a well off guy from the Somewhere Else that buys one hundred yards along a five mile trout river. A little cabin and his little slice of fly fishing respite. But soon he starts lobbying for a bait ban on the entire river. For the good of the fish and the river of course! Then works to turn it into a fly fishing only river, again for the good of the resource. He claims he really has no problem with the town kids riding their bikes out and chucking worms and bobbers next to his fenced property line. Or the locals parking at that spot across the river for a picnic and some fishing. But really, do they have to cook a fish from THIS river?? Nothing against eating a fish, but can't they eat one from some other water?

Lots of people claim that they want to grow hunting for the good of all hunters, but they sure don't mind throwing up roadblocks if it might infringe on their experience.

I own the property so it's OK for me to set up five yards from the line. But for the poor shmuck from town that will never have that, he shouldn't set up five yards on "his" (public) side of the line and utilize the means available to him? There's a word for that.

And JSW, you were the first to mention baiting in your own thread, so I believe it is on topic. Would you be on board with the Alberta model? Would you be on board to eliminate all baiting for all big game?

From: JM
04-Dec-19
It is a slippery slope because what do you sacrifice next? Who is also going to use this very same argument against your hunting method?

Bows just wound animals. hunting out of a treestand or blind is not real hunting, hunting from the ground is the only real hunting. Game cameras are an unfair advantage.

It can go on endlessly.

I own land in Oklahoma and a few week s ago I heard some people talking nearby and I got out of my stand and walked over to see what was going on. I found my neighbor about 20 yards from my fence, he had shot a deer was looking for it. His stand was located within 100 yards of my fence line and he had corn and a small throw and grow food plot. He was clearly hunting deer that were coming off my property and going over to him. What did I do? I jumped the fence and spent a couple of hours trying to help him find his deer. When we lost the trail, he decided to go get a dog to help find the deer, I told if the deer went on my land to just go ahead and cross the fence and find him. We will probably be friends and have a good relationship going forward.

I relate this story because let’s contrast that story to the story by the OP.

Hunter leases land and puts up tree stand and baits deer on his “land” in the best location. Hunter shoots deer on his land but it runs over to his neighbor’s land and dies 40 yards into the property. Hunter crosses fence to retrieve deer (should have asked permission). Neighbor finds out hunter has killed buck and retrieved it on his property. Neighbor is mad that the hunter did not ask permission to retrieve deer (rightfully so). Neighbor see’s bait pile and is mad hunter is baiting his deer. Neighbor tells hunter you cannot come on my land in the future to retrieve a deer. (This is the neighbor’s right but it is just going to waste the animal and possibly more than one).

Now when you read through all this a reasonable person may come to the conclusion that neighbor is mad that the hunter killed one of his deer and he is mad that he was baiting because he couldn’t have killed the deer without it. He wants to eliminate this possibility of the hunter killing his deer in the future by making it illegal to bait deer. So to accomplish this he just invokes the argument that non hunters don’t like baiting and therefore for the good of all hunters it should be illegal.

In reality baiting is currently a non-issue among non-hunters; there is deer corn and feeders in every small town, they don’t understand it and don’t really care. The only place I ever see it as an issue is among hunters, usually due to sanctimonious-elitists one side and Slob-jerks on the other that see no consequences in their actions.

Jim you came on here for validation of your position, I want you see both sides of the fence and not take lightly proposing to eliminate a legal hunting method, there are often unintended consequences from such actions.

John

From: Shawn
04-Dec-19
My Dad always told me ethics is what you do when nobody is watching. They have nothing to do with what others think. If whoever out there thinks it's ok and can be at peace with it than who am I to judge them. I myself would never do it and I also would never bait. I guess I am saying if you want to be an a-hole you will get what you deserve in the end and have to live with it! Shawn

From: SixLomaz
04-Dec-19
Your friend should have asked and open a discussion on the subject. He did not do what a friend should do. Thus, he is no longer a friend. To complete the analysis one must also ask the "Who?" questions.

Who showed his property potential to someone with lesser opportunities?

Who in effect tempted a weaker soul to the forbidden fruit? Torture perhaps!?

Sharing and giving are elements of transcending the human condition. You feel hurt and betrayed now without realizing you helped point that dagger at your heart yourself. A good host offers a friend guest the best he has be it food, shelter, clothing, ... deer. You hurt him first. You have to look at this beyond the material consequences. This is the story of Cain and Abel repeated becasue we are unable to learn and remember it.

I once took a friend to hunt on my property and put him in a spot with less opportunities. He knew that from my own prior bragging and he did not have a good time hunting. I felt awful about what I did. I invited him again and I had to insist for him to join me. When we got there I told him to go in the excellent spot and he killed a 10 point buck I missed on before few times. Not only I helped him find the buck and drag it out, but I felt great about it. I felt redeemed of my previous mistake. Our friendship is stronger today as we share.

From: BIG BEAR
04-Dec-19
Excellent well thought out posts by Ambush and JM.

04-Dec-19
FTR, I am OK with Alberta banning baiting and food plots.

I have not, and never will hunt there;-)

From: Ambush
04-Dec-19
HfW, would you be on-board with the Alberta model in your home state?

From: lawdy
04-Dec-19
The only way I would take a deer I didn’t kill is if it was roadkill and the driver that hit it didn’t want it. Owning a big set of horns you never harvested is a poor substitute for woodsmanship. It’s just a deer, put on this earth to eat, not go nuts over. I had a guy at the check-in station criticize a deer I shot. It was a doe, and I asked him if he would eat a big bull steer that just screwed a hundred cows, was chased for miles with a leg shot off and pumped full of adrenaline when you finally finished it off, or this doe shot with an arrow through the lungs as it ambled down a trail. He walked away.

From: Ambush
04-Dec-19
The "public perception" of baiting deer as a opposed to baiting deer is a flimsy stool to speak from.

Imagine you're a non-hunting family going for a walk in the woods and you come across a pile of corn. You may be perplexed and you might even find the idea of baiting to kill a deer as not very fair once you figure it out.

On the same walk, your family comes across several barrels scattered about tethered with chains, food scraps, popcorn and doughnuts smelling like a Mcdonald's dumpster and one or two skinned beaver carcasses slowly turning in the breeze. All to kill a bear.

Which site do you think might be more offensive to that family?

From: Bloodtrail
04-Dec-19
Corn would be. It’s like a bird feeder.

04-Dec-19
Honestly Ambush I would be OK with it if all other habitat practices were still encouraged. Plotting is fun, but expensive.

From: Ambush
04-Dec-19
You are right there HfW.

Another thing to consider when contemplating banning someone else's activities is the repercussions to yourself. If landowners/leasee's successfully got rid of baiting, the baiters would be entirely justified in lobbying to have hunting within a certain distance of a food plot; then eventually within the same distance of any ag crops. And they WOULD lobby for that!

Now before you say ".. haha, I just won't plant food on my quarter." Well your east and west neighbours with poor ground that used to bait, now just till a four wide strip along each of their borders with you and plant a plot. If the buffer zone is three hundred yards, you can't hunt your own place. But they still each have three hundred yard wide swaths that they can hunt. Think what anti's could do on smaller parcels just by planting Cabelas Whitetail attractant in all four corners of ten acres. Or they could simply dump corn along your shared borders and tell you. And please don't go "..with the intent to hunt" angle. If you know there is bait there and you hunt there you'll still have to convince a CO and a judge that you're innocent of intent.

As always, be careful what you wish for.

From: WI Shedhead
04-Dec-19
In all methods of hunting thier is use and abuse. A gravity box of corn is way different than 2 gallons. And yes human nature is what it is. You have a choice to hang with turds or flush them into the mound system

04-Dec-19
What I wish for Ambush is that more outdoors folks get involved in improving habitat together. I have never worked for anything else.

And if government regulations get that ridiculous, we might just ignore them. I know folks still bait where it is illegal.

From: BIG BEAR
04-Dec-19
Frank......... A certain rock star from Michigan was all over the media regarding the ban..... Stating that it would “Trigger” civil disobedience...... He was careful with his words not to call for civil disobedience. Kevin said there’s still bait selling in the northern Lower. I don’t see that in the southern Lower....

Are you saying that if the Government went so far as to say that you couldn’t place a bird feeder outside your house..... you would ignore it ?

From: butcherboy
04-Dec-19
My biggest problem with this whole thread is trying to figure out how a “big bull steer” can screw 100 cows? :) lol

From: lawdy
04-Dec-19
A bill has been introduced in our state that will ban all hunting within 300 yards of a dwelling. That would wipe out hunting in most areas.

04-Dec-19
No, I think bird feeders should not be used;-)

From: mn_archer
04-Dec-19
In no circumstances is this an acceptable situation and if I were the landowner where the deer were coming from I would never allow somebody on the other property to recover deer off of my property-

NEVER

04-Dec-19
"I'm sick of the "fighting amongst ourselves excuse". We routinely draw lines in the sand on what we will accept as fair chase. Was it divisive to ban spotlighting? High fence hunting? The poison bod? Shooting from a boat or moving vehicle? Things are either acceptable or they are not. When the majority of states say baiting is illegal, maybe we need to take a closer look."

I agree with Jim on this.

From: sitO
04-Dec-19
When you grabbed a bow for the first time what did you think of?

Chasing a wild animal, on it's terms, an ethical shot and meat for the freezer...that was my thought, maybe I'm different.

From: BIG BEAR
05-Dec-19
I sure as hell didn’t think of 90 yard shots with a slide sight....... But that seems to be the direction that bowhunting is headed.......

I’ll strive to keep my shots at 10-15 yards.

From: Boreal
05-Dec-19
"We need to bait bears to effectively control the population. Banning bear baiting takes away hunting opportunities and makes it harder to manage them. No one can say that banning baiting for deer will significantly reduce the ability to manage the population. Apples and oranges."

Seriously?!! Do you really believe this. There's a whole other half of this country east of the big river with little tiny properties and extremely overpopulated whitetail herds.

From: Catscratch
05-Dec-19
I whole-heartedly disagree in the premises that hunting regulations should be based on either; what other states are doing, or what non-hunting public feels comfortable with. States have boundary lines, their own governments, their own wildlife management, their own laws, their own taxation, their own elections, etc for a reason. It's part of our country to allow each state it's own management. To say all states should be uniform in management is paramount to wishing to do away with the electoral college. I certainly do not want KS to adopt California's hunting laws. It just doesn't make since to me to look at it that way. And I brought public opinion up before. The vast number of non-hunting people I've talked to have a very low opinion of bowhunting. If you want to cater to public opinion you don't get to choose which opinions you like. If you are ok with outlawing bait because the public see's it as cheating, then you HAVE to be ok with outlawing bowhunting when they say it's inhumane. You can't have it both ways.

From: Shawn
05-Dec-19
Kyle we all know you are different. LMAO!! I will say again true Ethics are what you do when no one is watching. I have mine , other folks have theirs. I think I am a truly ethical hunter others may not I am. Shawn

05-Dec-19
Jason, we are both from KS. I get reactions may vary geographically across our nation based on ideology and other variables, but I have never garnered the reaction you have. I interact with literally hundreds of people 5 days a week. The reaction to my bow hunting is always the same from those who do not participate in hunting..."at least the animals have a chance."

And these same people see the difference between a bait pile or bait broadcasted as they do habitat work which is much more similar to agriculture practices than baiting. They understand the cost differential, sweat equity and the similar way the animals interact with created habitat as they do agriculture.

As with the last class of each semester, I bring in a log of venison summer sausage from I deer I harvested and crackers to share with the class. They have to hear my talk on wildlife conservation, and how it relates to business and free markets. Robin and I have taken literally scores of kids to tour the farm, and some to learn to shoot firearms for the first time (parent required to be in attendance). I know first hand dozens of young men try hunting for the first time, others thank me for being open about my support of the outdoor sports.

JMO, but our image matters tremendously in regards to our future ability to continue hunting. And for me, it's really not about the hunting any longer, it is about nature and what we leave to future generations.

I do not support government ending baiting where it has been legal and is part of tradition. I do support government encouraging LOs and sports people to be more involved, and for us to continue being more educated in the best ways to secure not only the future of hunting, but what I believe is a national treasure-our diverse wildlife and native habitat.

From: Ambush
05-Dec-19
I think the main problem with banning bait while allowing plots intended to attract deer is that you alienate hunters that do not have land or long term leases on land. And keep in mind that there are for more in the latter category. If you did a poll, I think you'd find those for and against baiting would line up with landowners/leasee's and public land hunters. Owners against baiting and public hunters for. And then the extreme where landowners would ban bating only on public.

So baiting is banned. The guy that has land goes along his merry way, plotting and shooting deer and the world is good. The guy that doesn't have land and because of work and family only has a few days per season, weekends or maybe one week that he can take for himself. He goes and sits in a tree where he used to sometimes get a deer, but now without the five gallons of corn, he sees nothing. So guess what? he loses interest and figures fishing and golf are more fun. That means he doesn't take his kids or neighbor kids anymore either.

"Ahh, my woods are peaceful without those baiters on the public next me.", says the landowner sitting over his plot.

Sure is. And the balance of non-hunter to hunter just became more uneven. Good for you for today. Not so much for "..the future of hunting" tomorrow.

Try putting yourself in the other guys shoes and sincerely try making his case.

Spend some time over on "Deer Builder" or QDM sites. "Growing deer'"and "Holding deer" is the main focus and nearly all the practitioners are deer hunters whose intent is to kill "quality" bucks. I have no problem with that and can see the satisfaction a person can derive from their work. It really is a hobby that can grip a person, no different than many other passions.

Just don't allow your passion to kill someone else's. Again, try your feet in the other shoes and see if they are still comfortable to wear.

From: Ambush
05-Dec-19

05-Dec-19
Ambush, OK, I ask you also try and put yourself in someone else's shoes. It is a free country. With few exceptions, anyone can go and make the necessary sacrifices to purchase land. Some have made the sacrifice, others are not willing to and come up with excuses like deer hunting is just a part time recreational activity. And these same people will just as quickly point out how the young generation wants every thing handed to them, and pronto. Time for them to do something foreign to them, look in the mirror. So, let's encourage more stewardship of our resources, and not just be self centered about our approach. Amazing to me, some against baiting will use the above post to pint out how reducing deer numbers is useful in slowing the spread of CWD, and that justifies baiting. While at the same time they tell us of all the deer they passed on shooting. What double talk, and only idiots will buy that line of dung.

From: Ambush
05-Dec-19
Frank, I sure wish you would have left that last line off.

And I also do not believe it is possible for nearly everyone to "sacrifice and buy land".

From: SixLomaz
05-Dec-19
One step towards wisdom:

When one feels someone else's suffering as their own, and is able to rejoice in other peoples happiness as their own.

From: BIG BEAR
05-Dec-19
“Self centered about our approach”...............

Frank. Is it self centered to sit over a cattle water tank for antelope ?? How about a water hole ?? If an antelope hunter doesn’t improve the antelope habitat in which he is hunting..... Is that self centered ???

That can apply to any other species as well. Look.... I think what you do with your Habitat Management is fantastic.... But I think that those who spend great amounts of time and money to do what you do tend to look down their noses at guys who don’t do what you do......... Calling other hunters self centered is no way to recruit others to do what you do.

From: Catscratch
05-Dec-19
Frank, I think we do a lot of things similar. I I teach and coach. We have weekly practices and cookouts at our place all summer and fall. Local kids have access to our place a lot. Lots of fishing, camping, shooting, swimming, hunting, etc. My kid's have friends over often who also get to experience these things, many of them for the first time. They aren't exposed to bait piles on our place, so I really don't know how they would react if they saw one. What they do see is wheat/clover/chicory/beans, apple/crabbapple/pear, sawtooth, and a lot of native habitat that is carefully taken care of.

My experience is that kids never really express a concern over types of hunting or methods, they just like to participate with whoever is willing to take them or give them a chance. The only times in my life I've ever heard complaints of baiting is on hunting forums. Never once have I heard an adult talk about a pile of corn who wasn't a hunter. I have many times heard non-hunting adults talk of wounded or lost deer due to archery. Maybe I'm just unlucky with that.

I still stand by my view that laws should not be made to appease a non-participating group's feelings. Laws should be based on data and management. I also still stand by the fact that you can't have it both ways. If you let them tell you that you can't bait because it hurts their feelings, you also have let them tell you what else hurts their feelings.

I agree with you that we should be wise with what we project. I get what you are saying and do a great deal to promote conservation and good practices. It seems ill-chosen pictures on social media can breed contempt in people who otherwise would never give hunting a second thought. I agree that image is important and should be carefully maintained, but it isn't a basis for laws regarding management.

From: Ambush
05-Dec-19
Over and out and apologies to the OP for instigating the sidetrack.

05-Dec-19
Jason, you are one of the good guys, thanks. I agree that feelings should not be the basis of law making, but the reality is otherwise. I like to tell my students that it is not enough that they want to accomplish good, they actually have to.

Regarding woundings, my response is to ask if they have ever been to a slaughter house. They don't get it right there the first time always either. But we are obligated to try. Thanks.

05-Dec-19
"That can apply to any other species as well. Look.... I think what you do with your Habitat Management is fantastic.... But I think that those who spend great amounts of time and money to do what you do tend to look down their noses at guys who don’t do what you do......... Calling other hunters self centered is no way to recruit others to do what you do."

I agree Chris, so quit insulting my intelligence by going along with someone just because they bait like you. If you are going to try and justify baiting to reduce herd numbers in an attempt to slow/stop the spread of CWD, don't look the other way when someone says they pass on numerous deer over bait. The most likely reason is they want a better deer, whatever better is in their mind.

The one talking down their noses is Kevin and the high number of snide remarks he has taken towards habitat managers. Though you have been complimentary, appreciated thank you, you have not pointed out his style is not a way to have people buy in. I get tired of the hypocrisy and double standards, and will call it out.

05-Dec-19
Chris,

The stock tank argument doesn't work for me. You have land, you know how to get more deer if you want them. You want your cake (trees) and eat it to (deer). Life's tough, we make hard choices. I don't support baiting but in a few instances, not to include your type of situation. I also do not support the government dictating private land use unless there is a compelling reason to do so. I see no compelling reason, including herd health, for them to do so.

That position doesn't seem acceptable to you. I have to agree that baiting is OK. I don't for the many reasons discussed. Please accept that.

Yes, grab a chain saw, put some sweat equity in it and bring the wildlife to your slice of heaven.

From: Catscratch
05-Dec-19
Frank, you nailed one of my favorite quotes that came from Churchhill; “It is not enough that we do our best; sometimes we must do what is required.” ? Winston S. Churchill

He also said this; “If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without blood shed; if you will not fight when your victory is sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.” -Winston Churchill

Letting small freedoms be stripped, and fighting among ourselves is a sure way to feed an insurmountable enemy in the future. All laws and regulations should have considerable merit, and I will never tell someone how to hunt based on my preferences.

From: BIG BEAR
05-Dec-19
Frank.... I for one have never argued that I want to use a few gallons of corn for deer to help stop the spread of CWD.

I have simply stated that is how I enjoy hunting deer.

If I were a public land only deer hunter..... would you see me as self centered if I do absolutely nothing to help to improve deer habitat.... All I do is buy a tag and go out hunting ???? If you don’t see that guy as self centered.... Then why am I self centered because I do the exact same thing as him but I put down 2 gallons of corn ???

As to passing on deer.... The only deer that I’m passing are deer that are too small to get enough venison from to justify killing that deer.... or a doe with fawns......

From: JM
05-Dec-19
"I'm sick of the "fighting amongst ourselves excuse". We routinely draw lines in the sand on what we will accept as fair chase. Was it divisive to ban spotlighting? High fence hunting? The poison bod? Shooting from a boat or moving vehicle? Things are either acceptable or they are not. When the majority of states say baiting is illegal, maybe we need to take a closer look."

The rules of fair chase that we as members of B&C and P&Y commit to guide ourselves by is a higher standard than that of the general public. Wildlife laws are designed to manage people to conserve wildlife for the enjoyment and use of future generations. The above Items are not all illegal in all states for instance you can spotlight hogs in some states, high fence hunting is not illegal in all states, hunting from a moving vehicle may be legal on private property. The only thing listed that is universally illegal is the poison pod which uses a dangerous Federally controlled substance.

All of these methods are mentioned in the Rules of Fair Chase or Fair Chase Affidavit of either B&C or P&Y except Baiting. B&C has a webpage which discusses baiting but in the end leaves it up to the laws of the individual states, as I recall there are something like 22 or 23 states in which baiting is legal in some form.

I strongly advise against pursing a ban on baiting for deer in Kansas

1) There is no current or emanate controversies that threatens hunting in Kansas associated with baiting. 2) Thousands of hunters across the state use bait in a responsible and legal manner and enjoy the experience. 3) To do this you will have to bring the issue up with the Department of Wildlife and have public hearings 4) You will portray legal hunters in a negative light. 5) You will force the opposing side to counter attack and disparage your agenda. 6) You will likely attract an Anti-hunting element (they will be on your side). 7) If the media gets involved things could spin out of control.

John

From: mn_archer
05-Dec-19
Shawn,

you make a great point. Your ethics are yours, mine are mine. We have guys on this site that think anyone hunting with a compound bow are cheating. Dont mention e bikes, atvs, rifles, or the real deal breaker- baiting deer.

I'm of the opinion that in the 2A and hunting/fishing/trapping space if it's legal I'll support it. Doesnt mean I have to like it or that I'll participate, but if you wish to do it and its legal I'm sure as hell not going to question your ethics.

My ethical position has definitely shifted as I age. I just turned 46 a few days ago and things I did as a child. or even in my 20's or early 30's i couldn't even imagine doing today. Some of the things i did as a child horrify me today.

From: JusPassin
05-Dec-19
Never.

05-Dec-19
Chris, Jason

You know my position. The government should not be involved. Hunters should elevate our standards on our own. As JM's post points out, standards have changed. I will not be surprised if the organizations he mentions do not some day define fair chase as to exclude baiting. And if that includes plots, I will be OK with that.

From: XbowfromNY
05-Dec-19
"The bait pile and stand will only be a few yards off of his fence line since that’s the only place that has any trees. " .........I'm confused. you need a tree to hunt? lol. just get on the ground. it's 2020, who needs a treestand?

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